Minimum Wage Increase? Not on our watch!

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 21, 2006, 10:21 pm

GOP-run Senate kills minimum wage increase
By DAVID ESPO, AP Special Correspondent

WASHINGTON - The Republican-controlled Senate smothered a proposed election-year increase in the minimum wage Wednesday, rejecting Democratic claims that it was past time to boost the $5.15 hourly pay floor that has been in effect for nearly a decade.

The 52-46 vote was eight short of the 60 needed for approval under budget rules and came one day after House Republican leaders made clear they do not intend to allow a vote on the issue, fearing it might pass.

The Senate vote marked the ninth time since 1997 that Democrats there have proposed — and Republicans have blocked — a stand-alone increase in the minimum wage. The debate fell along predictable lines.

"Americans believe that no one who works hard for a living should have to live in poverty. A job should lift you out of poverty, not keep you in it," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (news, bio, voting record), D-Mass. He said a worker paid $5.15 an hour would earn $10,700 a year, "almost $6,000 below the poverty line for a family of three."

Kennedy also said lawmakers' annual pay has risen by roughly $30,000 since the last increase in the minimum wage.

Republicans said a minimum wage increase would wind up hurting the low-wage workers that Democrats said they want to help.

"For every increase you make in the minimum wage, you will cost some of them their jobs," said Sen. Johnny Isakson, R-Ga.

He described the clash as a "classic debate between two very different philosophies. One philosophy that believes in the marketplace, the competitive system ... and entrepreneurship. And secondly is the argument that says the government knows better and that topdown mandates work."

The measure drew the support of 43 Democrats, eight Republicans and one independent. Four of those eight Republicans are seeking re-election in the fall.

Democrats had conceded in advance that this attempt to raise the minimum wage would fare no better than their previous attempts. At the same time, they have made clear in recent days they hope to gain support in the coming midterm elections by stressing the issue. Organized labor supports the legislation, and Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., said that contrary to some impressions, most minimum wage workers are adults, not teenagers, and many of them are women.

"When the Democrats control the Senate, one of the first pieces of legislation we'll see is an increase in the minimum wage," said Kennedy.

His proposal would have increased the minimum wage to $5.85 beginning 60 days after the legislation was enacted; to $6.55 one year later; and to $7.25 a year after that. He said inflation has eroded the value of the current $5.15 minimum wage by 20 percent.

With the help of a few rebellious Republicans, House Democrats on the House Appropriations Committee succeeded in attaching a minimum wage increase last week to legislation providing funding for federal social programs. Fearing that the House would pass the measure with the increase intact, the GOP leadership swiftly decided to sidetrack the entire bill.

"I am opposed to it, and I think a vast majority of our (rank and file) is opposed to it," House Majority Leader John Boehner, R-Ohio, said Tuesday.

Pressed by reporters, he said, "There are limits to my willingness to just throw anything out on the floor."

On Wednesday, his spokesman, Kevin Madden, said Boehner has told fellow Republicans "the House will have to deal with this some way." He said no decisions had been made.

While Democrats depend on organized labor to win elections, Republicans are closely aligned with business interests that oppose any increase in the federal wage floor or would like changes in the current system.

Sen. Mike Enzi, R-Wyo., chairman of the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee, offered an alternative that proposed a minimum wage increase of $1.10 over 18 months, in two steps.

The increase was coupled with a variety of provisions offering regulatory or tax relief to small businesses, including one to exempt enterprises with less than $1 million in annual receipts from the federal wage and hour law entirely. The current exemption level is $500,000, and a Republican document noted the amount had "lagged behind inflation."

Additionally, Republicans proposed a system of optional "flextime" for workers, a step that Enzi said would allow employees, at their discretion, to work more than 40 hours one week in exchange for more time off the next. Unions generally oppose such initiatives, and the Republican plan drew 45 votes, with 53 in opposition.

$5.15 is pathetic. No raise after 10 years yet their pay has increased $30,000. If I lost my current job and had to work a mimimum wage job I couldn't even make enough after taxes to pay rent.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 21, 2006, 10:43 pm

holy fuck, $5.15 an hour.

average minimum wage in Canada is $7.75 I believe. It varies province to province. In BC it is $8.

$8 an hour is low ass pay but at least you can subsit on it and it is higher than what social assisstance pays. if you have a couple of kids, welfare is probably higher than $5.15 an hour.

I guess rich people like it because it keeps money in their pockets, so it will probably stay at that rate until the GOP is out of power.

Companies that employ minimum wage slaves cannot cut more staff. they are typically run with skeleton crews already to maximize profits. the reality is that these companies still need asses in the seats doing the work. I dislike those kinds of junk logic arguments that fiscally irresponsible conservatives are always so fond of.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 21, 2006, 11:01 pm

Might fail in Federal Government, but States can still pass laws raising minimum wage.

Michigan has something in the works to raise the minimum wage to $7.15 or somewhere around that.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » June 21, 2006, 11:46 pm

Serious question, if they raise the minimum don't prices rise to follow suit? Seems like they would as labor costs are a significant part of most businesses overhead, especially those that pay crap wages.

It's either that or margins, executive bonuses and dividends have to drop, none of which are at all likely to happen. Shareholders as a rule couldn't give a shit.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 22, 2006, 12:43 am

Aabidano wrote:Serious question, if they raise the minimum don't prices rise to follow suit? Seems like they would as labor costs are a significant part of most businesses overhead, especially those that pay crap wages.

It's either that or margins, executive bonuses and dividends have to drop, none of which are at all likely to happen. Shareholders as a rule couldn't give a shit.

Most places I have seen that pay crap wages have service and products that are crap. I avoid them like the plague.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » June 22, 2006, 12:51 am

Aabidano wrote:Serious question, if they raise the minimum don't prices rise to follow suit? Seems like they would as labor costs are a significant part of most businesses overhead, especially those that pay crap wages.

It's either that or margins, executive bonuses and dividends have to drop, none of which are at all likely to happen. Shareholders as a rule couldn't give a shit.

Perhaps, but it's still better to make work more attractive v's welfare/crime.

I hate the very idea of working poor, and you've made great strides in moving that kind of work overseas anyway, so you should (as an economy) be able to afford to bring the bottom a little closer to the middle.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » June 22, 2006, 5:05 am

Zaelath wrote:
Aabidano wrote:Serious question, if they raise the minimum don't prices rise to follow suit? Seems like they would as labor costs are a significant part of most businesses overhead, especially those that pay crap wages.

It's either that or margins, executive bonuses and dividends have to drop, none of which are at all likely to happen. Shareholders as a rule couldn't give a shit.
Perhaps, but it's still better to make work more attractive v's welfare/crime.

I hate the very idea of working poor, and you've made great strides in moving that kind of work overseas anyway, so you should (as an economy) be able to afford to bring the bottom a little closer to the middle.

Gonzoie - Luclin · Post by **Gonzoie - Luclin** » June 22, 2006, 8:33 am

Minimum wage can vary amongst states here.. in NJ its 6.15 and by august i believe its going up another dollar to 7.15.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 22, 2006, 9:58 am

http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

It looks like only 17 states are above federal. That's not enough!

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2006, 10:11 am

Raising the minimum wage helps no one, consumer products are cheaper in dolar versus dollar comparisons than they were 30 years ago.

Raising the minimum wage just pay cuts everyone that makes more than it, because as soon as it increases, gas, milk, bread etc all get more expensive. The way to make more money is to work hard, get promoted, educate yourself, change jobs, etc. Not to wait for the government to kick off another inflationary wage increase that helps no one past the first 90 days. Prices will adjust, no real effect will exist from any such thing other than devaluing the paychecks of everyone with more ambition than a 7/11 clerk. If your boss is paying you minimum wage he is telling you that if he could he would pay you less, and anyone that thinks this is long term employment deserves it.

I have no sympathy for anyone in a minimum wage job, those are no supposed to be careers. Michigan is raising the minimum wage because it has cut all the welfare programs.

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » June 22, 2006, 10:21 am

Raising the minimum wage helps no one

Michigan is raising the minimum wage because it has cut all the welfare programs

Did you just not make the connection.. or are you ACTUALLY a welfare junkie and just pissed because now you have to get a job?

miir · Post by **miir** » June 22, 2006, 11:07 am

A part time, minimum wage job should always be more appealing than welfare.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 22, 2006, 11:17 am

I think what he's saying is he doesn't have a mimimum wage job so he doesn't want to pay for their raise because prices on everything will go up.

Kylere: Economist at large.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 22, 2006, 11:31 am

Kylere wrote:Raising the minimum wage helps no one, consumer products are cheaper in dolar versus dollar comparisons than they were 30 years ago.

Raising the minimum wage just pay cuts everyone that makes more than it, because as soon as it increases, gas, milk, bread etc all get more expensive. The way to make more money is to work hard, get promoted, educate yourself, change jobs, etc. Not to wait for the government to kick off another inflationary wage increase that helps no one past the first 90 days. Prices will adjust, no real effect will exist from any such thing other than devaluing the paychecks of everyone with more ambition than a 7/11 clerk.

Junk economics with no basis in reality. Who'd have thought you'd come up with it?

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » June 22, 2006, 11:35 am

miir wrote:A part time, minimum wage job should always be more appealing than welfare.

A full time minimum wage job yes, part time no. If you have issues to the point that you can't (not won't) work full time, there are programs to help out.

Of the (4?) people I've personally known that have been on social assistance of various sorts, 3 are homeowners now. After a lot of hard work on their part to get out of the hole they landed in, which wasn't always something they could do anything about at the time. None were from multi-generational welfare families though. Number 4 is classed as an alcholic, he gets paid for life to sit on his ass even though he hasn't drank in many years.

Many people it's beneath them to work for minimum wage, even though they have no skills whatsoever and will make no effort to gain any. Working at the Quickie Mart of McD's isn't good enough. In short they want something handed to them.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » June 22, 2006, 11:45 am

What do you guys mean it helps no one? Turn off the right wing propaganda, wake up and smell the coffee!

The whole idea that it costs jobs or raises prices is just a farce to make people who can't do math keep voting for them.

I don't have time to whip out a spredsheet showing how this would all work but if you think about it you might be able to figure it out on your own. Lets also try to remember the HUGE number of tax cuts right now the Bush administration has given to businesses that hasn't done jack shit but make the economy worse. Even the small business owner is in a much better place right now than he was 5 years ago tax wise yet we don't want to pay people $2 an hour more?

You guys are probably the same people who complain that we have too many "freeloaders" on welfare. Well you know what? When you have to work 2 or 3 jobs to make the same amount of money that welfare will pay you... it's not a difficult choice...

Marb

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 22, 2006, 12:26 pm

How can people complain about lack of income when there's Tupperware, Avon and Amway to sell to your friends?

miir · Post by **miir** » June 22, 2006, 12:29 pm

A full time minimum wage job yes, part time no. If you have issues to the point that you can't (not won't) work full time, there are programs to help out

Social assistance here in Ontario I think is around $500-600 a month.
A part time (20-25 hours/week), minimum wage job will pull in over $700 a month before taxes. At a full time, minimum wage job they will make over $1200 before taxes.

That's plenty of incentive to work instead of getting social assistance.

At $5.15 an hour, an American in a part time job will make barely $500/month... less than $800/month for a full time job. How much would social assistance would an individual be entitled to in the US?

Are they giving people incentive to work or is it easier financially for them to sit on their asses and collect welfare?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2006, 12:33 pm

LOL

Only a blind fool would think that raising minimum wage helps poor people, we have done it before, and the numbers prove it wrong. Raise minimum wage, and the cost of living rises. That is not rocket scientist math, it is 2+2 level. Yes I also hate my check being devalued when it helps NOT ONE PERSON.

Zero sum gain, other than bumping inflation level.

But only people dumb enought to live their entire lives making it, think it makes a difference. Welfare was cut in Michigan because the state could not longe afford to provide everyone who did not work with a living anyways. The people that actually need it, get it. Those who are able bodied and have no exucse for not working, I could care less about.

This entire thing is blatant pandering on the part of the politicians and the same people praising them are the ones that codemn Dumbfuck Bush for pulling the same shit with same sex marriage issues. Christ LOOK BEYOND THE HEADLINES.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 22, 2006, 12:36 pm

Only a blind fool would think that raising minimum wage helps poor people, we have done it before, and the numbers prove it wrong.

I'd love to see those numbers.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2006, 12:39 pm

miir wrote:A part time, minimum wage job should always be more appealing than welfare.

A part time minimum wage job is what you should hold as a teenager. So it is not relevant. I agree with your basic premise, but if I lost my current job, I would have to work 4 minimum wage jobs to replace the income loss. Since this could not be done, I would work 2 and maybe a part time third if that was the only type of job I could get.

Then I would adjust my standard of living to my new income level, until I was able to find better, I would not expect everyone else to fix it for me.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2006, 12:41 pm

miir wrote:
Only a blind fool would think that raising minimum wage helps poor people, we have done it before, and the numbers prove it wrong.
I'd love to see those numbers.

I am not here to spoonfeed you. Besides which you will only read the numbers you agree with, so I will not bother.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 22, 2006, 12:42 pm

Kylere wrote:
miir wrote:
Only a blind fool would think that raising minimum wage helps poor people, we have done it before, and the numbers prove it wrong.
I'd love to see those numbers.
I am not here to spoonfeed you. Besides which you will only read the numbers you agree with, so I will not bother.

So in other words, you're full of shit.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2006, 12:42 pm

cadalano wrote:
Raising the minimum wage helps no one

Michigan is raising the minimum wage because it has cut all the welfare programs

Did you just not make the connection.. or are you ACTUALLY a welfare junkie and just pissed because now you have to get a job?

Does mommy and daddy know you post here?

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 22, 2006, 12:43 pm

miir wrote:
Kylere wrote:
miir wrote:
Only a blind fool would think that raising minimum wage helps poor people, we have done it before, and the numbers prove it wrong.
I'd love to see those numbers.
I am not here to spoonfeed you. Besides which you will only read the numbers you agree with, so I will not bother.

So in other words, you're full of shit.

No in other words prove me wrong.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 22, 2006, 12:46 pm

Kylere wrote:
miir wrote:
Kylere wrote:
miir wrote:
Only a blind fool would think that raising minimum wage helps poor people, we have done it before, and the numbers prove it wrong.
I'd love to see those numbers.
I am not here to spoonfeed you. Besides which you will only read the numbers you agree with, so I will not bother.

So in other words, you're full of shit.
No in other words prove me wrong.

You're wrong.

Case closed.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 22, 2006, 12:46 pm

Kylere wrote:Only a blind fool would think that raising minimum wage helps poor people, we have done it before, and the numbers prove it wrong. Raise minimum wage, and the cost of living rises. That is not rocket scientist math, it is 2+2 level. Yes I also hate my check being devalued when it helps NOT ONE PERSON.

So you're saying as long as we don't raise mimimum wage the cost of living wont increase? Ah right, I'm with you... In that case I'm all for lowering the minimum wage! In fact we should abolish it completely and let people work for tips.

I could care less about.

Glad to see you secretly care.

[hide]

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This entire thing is blatant pandering on the part of the politicians and the same people praising them are the ones that codemn Dumbfuck Bush for pulling the same shit with same sex marriage issues. Christ LOOK BEYOND THE HEADLINES.

Thanks for the heads up. I can't believe I've only been reading headlines all this time.

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » June 22, 2006, 12:55 pm

what fucking fat roll did you dig that ancient zinger out of?

what else you got in there?

miir · Post by **miir** » June 22, 2006, 1:06 pm

cadalano wrote:what fucking fat roll did you dig that ancient zinger out of?

You just got served dude!

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » June 22, 2006, 1:53 pm

If you guys are done dry humping each other, why wouldn't prices increase as a direct result of raising minimum wage?

These are the same people who shop in those stores, so the net gain would seem to be $0 over time.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » June 22, 2006, 2:19 pm

The Fed should not be mandating minimum wage. I'm sorry that some people don't finish high school and are stuck at McDonald's, but tough shit.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » June 22, 2006, 2:54 pm

The "higher minimum wages equal higher prices" argument only works to a point. That point is the one that you started at without looking at how much those same prices increased WITHOUT an increase in minimum wage. Wages are NOT the only factors that determine the cost of goods or services.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » June 22, 2006, 7:08 pm

you guys are looking at this from a very narrow perspective, raising the minimum wage would have a myriad of negative drawbacks

first of all, people getting paid minimum wage for the most part are high school and college students making a few extra dollars on the side, people that need to support a family of four, etc can very easily find a higher paying job, even with having a low level of education
raising the minimum wage will have huge negative effects on businesses, not only will those on minimum wage demand higher pay, but everyone else will in correlation to increased minimum wage, unemployment will also skyrocket

I know that in the family business, we downsized a lot of our production in the US and opened a factory in china which saved us a shitload of money, with a minimum wage increase I am sure we would further downsize our american production and increase our labor force overseas, this is just the harsh reality people with a socialist agenda conveniently ignore

if your an adult working full time, and can only be hired for a job paying minimum wage, then thats pretty pathetic...the last thing our economy needs is a minimum wage increase

Cotto · Post by **Cotto** » June 22, 2006, 7:29 pm

Current minimum wage here is £5.05 an hour ($9.23 apparently)
but its going up to £5.15 in a couple of months.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 22, 2006, 7:48 pm

Xzion wrote:you guys are looking at this from a very narrow perspective, raising the minimum wage would have a myriad of negative drawbacks

first of all, people getting paid minimum wage for the most part are high school and college students making a few extra dollars on the side, people that need to support a family of four, etc can very easily find a higher paying job, even with having a low level of education
raising the minimum wage will have huge negative effects on businesses, not only will those on minimum wage demand higher pay, but everyone else will in correlation to increased minimum wage, unemployment will also skyrocket

There sure are a lot of opinions in this thread being paraded as facts. If people are going to state things like how it will have "huge negative effects on businesses" and how unemployment will "skyrocket" perhaps they'd like to provide some links to actual research backing that up rather than saying they're not going to spoonfeed people (lol).

Unlike others in this thread who are against the increase I actually went out and read articles from both sides of the issue. However, I'm still on the side that thinks it should be increased.

Here is a paper by a nonprofit, nonpartisan organization based on an actual (omg!) study of states who have increased the wages above the federal level:

http://www.epinet.org/content.cfm/briefingpapers_bp150

Conclusion

Despite very strong evidence to the contrary, those opposed to minimum wage hikes continue to claim that such policies have and will eliminate jobs. Nonetheless, the number of states with minimum wages above the federal rate has more than doubled since the last time the federal government raised the minimum wage in 1997. This year (2004), legislators will be voting on state minimum wage boosts in states such as New York and Minnesota. A governor's task force made up of business, labor, legislative, and education leaders recently recommended raising the Wisconsin minimum wage by $1.35, and voters may be asked to vote on a minimum wage increase at the ballot this fall in Florida and Nevada.

The question of whether moderate minimum wage increases have an insignificantly positive or insignificantly negative impact on particular segments of the labor market will continue to be fruitful work for economists. In the meantime, policy makers should be aware that the facts clearly show that the benefits of such increases outweigh any potential costs.

Xyphir · Post by **Xyphir** » June 22, 2006, 8:23 pm

I don't understand how the GOP can back a plan to eliminate the death tax, eliminating BILLIONS from Federal Tax Income, but yet can't mandate a living wage for the lowest income bracket. If you're scratching your heads, follow my logic. The rationale for eliminating the death tax was to spur the economy. The rationale for increasing the minumum wage should be the same. People in a lower income bracket are also more inclined to put the money into circulation because they have less disposable income... meaning that they'll buy goods and services, increasing demand, increasing supply to meet demand, which (tada) creates more jobs!

More than half of people earning the minimum wage, according the the Bureau of Labor Statistics (I'm not afraid to spoonfeed) are under the age of 25 (2002). I'm not disputing that most people earning minumum wage or under are either in college or high school. Over 80% of the industries hiring people at minimum wage are retail or food service. You can't outsource retail and you can't outsource food service. There isn't going to be a huge surge in unemployment because less than 3% (~2 million) of the working population earn this wage. You CAN outsource manufacturing, but the US is a service based economy. Just under half of all workers in the US are salaried.

The simple fact is the minimum wage has not increased since 1997. Adjusted for inflation, this is the lowest minimum wage has ever been. Consider this... do you think minimum wage workers get medical benefits (medicaid and medicare)? Who do you think pays for those? And how about welfare and food stamps?

Conversely, I have a hard time fully accepting the federally mandated minimum wage. States have a responsibility to their citizens too, and the cost of living varies from location to location. It does not cost the same to live in Tulsa as it does to live in San Francisco. The market usually takes care of itself, and I doubt someone working at a MacDonald's in San Francisco makes the same as the in Tulsa.

Considering the very small share of the labor force effected by an increase, and the added benefit from an increase in disposable income from, as someone pointed out, the very same consumers of products, I doubt inflation would even happen. If it did, it would be negligable.

But that's just one (former) labor economist's opinion.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 22, 2006, 9:16 pm

masteen wrote:The Fed should not be mandating minimum wage. I'm sorry that some people don't finish high school and are stuck at McDonald's, but tough shit.

so you think you deserve a better career because mommy and daddy paid for you to go to college where other people who work just as hard don't deserve to make a poverty level wage?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 22, 2006, 9:20 pm

Kylere wrote:No in other words prove me wrong.

that's not how it works, doofus. you made an asinine statement and now you have to back it up. you're asking someone to prove you wrong with data and facts that do not exist because IT IS WRONG.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » June 22, 2006, 10:26 pm

Here's another thought by Kylere's math if you lower business expenses then cost of living should go down right? If you raise them it's a 1 to 1 relationship right? why doesn't it work the other way?

Because it doesn't work that way either.

The GOP is out for the rich... not the mega rich, they are mostly democrats and not the upper middle class because those are just stupid people who want more money but don't realize the GOP is screwing them in the ass every time they vote.

Who benefits most from the GOP? The people with a net worth between 1 - 20 million dollars on the most part. Want an example? Got to the IRS page and do the make shift tax projections. If you do the percentages you will notice that someone who makes 100K per year saves about $1 for every $12 someone who makes a $1 million a year does... isn't that backwards? Shouldn't it be that those who the system has benefited the most should AT LEAST pay the same amount of taxes as the average person? IMHO those who society has benefied the most should pay more taxes but of course call me liberal because a give a shit I guess.

My primary job is pricing out large Outsourcing deals, determining the margin, who we keep, who we don't, what systems to buy, how move the money around to make it look better for different types of businesses etc... and I can promise you that a $1.50 an hour difference doesn't mean jack shit. Hell COLA (Cost of Living Increases) at ANY business are figured at 3% or more per year wheither the employees get that or not. Thus every year McDonalds hasn't paid their people more, they have still raised the price on Hamburgers and they are going to raise it again wither they start people at $5.50 or $7.00 per hour based more on what the market will bear than actual costs per employee.

Lets talk about social security for a minute and how BAD it is, how many people here make above the SS cap? how many of you guys get the few extra dollars in your end of the year checks because you have paid all you can pay in during the course of a year? Would you miss that money? Hell no... so why not remove that cap? Keep taxing all earned income just like you would the poor and middle class people, EXCEPT you make it so that no one can ever see a social income average above what the cap use to be. WELL THAT'S NOT FAIR! Hell no it's not but you know what? It's not fair that our teachers and policemen are making $35K a year with no chance to ever invest a decent amount of money to retire on. Someone making over $100K a year is still going to get the max social secuirty but they should be smart enough and have enough cash to invest and supplement their retirement above and beyond SS. It's not a retirement remember? it's just to keep the average person from starving to death.

Look at the math, just think if one of those 30 million dollar a year CEO had to give up 15.3% of that 29,905,000, million to Social Secuirty? (actually his business would pay for half of it). Hell that would pay for a ton of $20K per year old people's SS to live on. At around $4.5 million that he REALLY doesn't NEED anyway (no one can convince me that someone NEEDS 30 million when they got 25 million in 1 year) it would pay for about 228 people... and that is just 1 person... Don't let the Republicans' fool you, there is TONS of money out there to fix social secuirty, it's just the people funding their campaigns are the ones who have the most to loose...

Marb

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » June 22, 2006, 10:38 pm

Aabidano wrote:If you guys are done dry humping each other, why wouldn't prices increase as a direct result of raising minimum wage?

These are the same people who shop in those stores, so the net gain would seem to be $0 over time.

Because if there was a direct correlation, you would be selling just as many straw brooms now as 100 years ago, except they would be $5000 each.

Supply/Demand curves have two sides, sure raising the base wage of the poorest workers increases demand a little, BUT it's not like the supply side is inelastic.

Kylere's just grumpy.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » June 22, 2006, 10:40 pm

kyoukan wrote:
masteen wrote:The Fed should not be mandating minimum wage. I'm sorry that some people don't finish high school and are stuck at McDonald's, but tough shit.
so you think you deserve a better career because mommy and daddy paid for you to go to college where other people who work just as hard don't deserve to make a poverty level wage?

EVERYONE, yes EVERYONE in the US and i believe canada has the opportunity to go to college and succeed in life with better then minimum wage, sure some have it must easier then others but the opportunity still exsist,
(quit your godamned bitching already if you didnt want to persue a easy enough to obtain high GPA in high school and earn a bright futures or other sort of scholarship, that i know MANY people from poorer backrounds have done) if you dont seize it or have the mental savvy to persue a higher paying job, then maybe you deserve 5.15 an hour, if you dont like it, find a better godamned job

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » June 22, 2006, 10:46 pm

Aslanna wrote:[Despite very strong evidence to the contrary, those opposed to minimum wage hikes continue to claim that such policies have and will eliminate jobs. Nonetheless, the number of states with minimum wages above the federal rate has more than doubled since the last time the federal government raised the minimum wage in 1997. This year (2004), legislators will be voting on state minimum wage boosts in states such as New York and Minnesota. A governor's task force made up of business, labor, legislative, and education leaders recently recommended raising the Wisconsin minimum wage by $1.35, and voters may be asked to vote on a minimum wage increase at the ballot this fall in Florida and Nevada.

The question of whether moderate minimum wage increases have an insignificantly positive or insignificantly negative impact on particular segments of the labor market will continue to be fruitful work for economists. In the meantime, policy makers should be aware that the facts clearly show that the benefits of such increases outweigh any potential costs.

[/quote]

that article is bullshit, the author is trying to imply that THE ONLY factor to a job increase after 1997 was the fact that they raised the minimum wage, which of course is not true

a myriad of other factors caused for a job increase after 1997, to believe minimum wage issues have total dominance over this issue is retarded, and im sure there is reaserch that despite job growth, a minimum wage increase still hintered futher potential job growth

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » June 22, 2006, 11:16 pm

The economics argument against the minimum wage is not that it raises prices, but that it increases unemployment. Legislate that a higher price must be paid for a good than would be otherwise paid and, generally speaking, less of that good will be consumed. In the case of the minimum wage, the good is labor. For labor, reduced consumption could be reduced hours, or just not offering as many positions. Also, employers could reduce non-wage compensation (benefits,perks,etc.). So although some may benefit, others will lose.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 22, 2006, 11:31 pm

I'm no economics expert, but, is it true that some obscene amount of the overall wealth is owned by a tiny percentage of the population in the USA (and probably here in the UK too?)

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » June 23, 2006, 12:10 am

buy your posters at laborlawcc.com and make me more money!!!! I hope they increase Min Wage makes me more money heh.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » June 23, 2006, 12:13 am

Xzion wrote:that article is bullshit, the author is trying to imply that THE ONLY factor to a job increase after 1997 was the fact that they raised the minimum wage, which of course is not true

a myriad of other factors caused for a job increase after 1997, to believe minimum wage issues have total dominance over this issue is retarded, and im sure there is reaserch that despite job growth, a minimum wage increase still hintered futher potential job growth

I didn't see it as bullshit. At least it's facts and analysis rather than whatever it is you're basing your voodoo on. I'm still waiting for you to make a good case that an increase in the minimum wage would "have huge negative effects on businesses, not only will those on minimum wage demand higher pay, but everyone else will in correlation to increased minimum wage, unemployment will also skyrocket" because all you've given us so far has been.. Wait for it.. Bullshit.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » June 23, 2006, 9:10 am

miir wrote:
cadalano wrote:what fucking fat roll did you dig that ancient zinger out of?
You just got served dude!

Most 22 year olds serve me, at restaurants, as my paperboy, lawn care etc. It is some of the few things they are qualified for.

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » June 23, 2006, 11:04 am

Xzion wrote: a myriad of other factors caused for a job increase after 1997, to believe minimum wage issues have total dominance over this issue is retarded, and im sure there is reaserch that despite job growth, a minimum wage increase still hintered futher potential job growth

say myriad one more time and i'll think you know what youre talking about

miir · Post by **miir** » June 23, 2006, 11:24 am

Kylere wrote:
miir wrote:
cadalano wrote:what fucking fat roll did you dig that ancient zinger out of?
You just got served dude!
Most 22 year olds serve me, at restaurants, as my paperboy, lawn care etc. It is some of the few things they are qualified for.

He's flaming you about your age!!!

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » June 23, 2006, 11:45 am

Fatass old slob doesnt care for young people- shocker!

its all good though cos i'm totally gonna TP his house later *high five*