Wacky Pat at it Again

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » January 5, 2006, 9:09 pm

Didn't take him long to call forth the (alleged) wrath of god!

NORFOLK, Va. - Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson suggested Thursday that Israeli Prime Minister
Ariel Sharon's stroke was divine punishment for "dividing God's land."

"God considers this land to be his," Robertson said on his TV program "The 700 Club." "You read the Bible and he says `This is my land,' and for any prime minister of Israel who decides he is going to carve it up and give it away, God says, `No, this is mine.'"

Sharon, who ordered Israel's withdrawal from Gaza last year, suffered a severe stroke on Wednesday.

In Robertson's broadcast from his Christian Broadcasting Network in Virginia Beach, the evangelist said he had personally prayed about a year ago with Sharon, whom he called "a very tender-hearted man and a good friend." He said he was sad to see Sharon in this condition.

He also said, however, that in the Bible, the prophet Joel "makes it very clear that God has enmity against those who 'divide my land.'"

Sharon "was dividing God's land and I would say woe unto any prime minister of Israel who takes a similar course to appease the EU (European Union), the United Nations, or the United States of America," Robertson said.

In discussing what he said was God's insistence that Israel not be divided, Robertson also referred to the 1995 assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, who had sought to achieve peace by giving land to the Palestinians. "It was a terrible thing that happened, but nevertheless he was dead," he said.

The Anti-Defamation League issued a statement urging Christian leaders to distance themselves from the remarks. Robertson made similar comments as the Gaza withdrawal occurred, it said.

"It is outrageous and shocking, but not surprising, that Pat Robertson once again has suggested that God will punish Israel's leaders for any decision to give up land to the Palestinians," said Abraham H. Foxman, national director of the group, which fights anti-Semitism. "His remarks are un-Christian and a perversion of religion. Unlike Robertson, we don't see God as cruel and vengeful."

The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said a religious leader "should not be making callous political points while a man is struggling for his life."

"Pat Robertson has a political agenda for the entire world, and he seems to think God is ready to take out any world leader who stands in the way of that agenda," Lynn said in a statement.

Robertson spokeswoman Angell Watts said of critics who challenged his remarks, "What they're basically saying is, `How dare Pat Robertson quote the Bible?'"

"This is what the word of God says," Watts said. "This is nothing new to the Christian community."

In August, Robertson suggested on "The 700 Club" that American agents should assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, who has long been at odds with U.S. foreign policy. Robertson later apologized for his remarks, saying he "spoke in frustration."

Everyone do me a favor. If you know someone who actually believes whatever Pat spews out, please punch them in the face for me.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » January 6, 2006, 12:16 pm

Pat is one of those guys that could really use a severe ass beating. He is an attention whore to the nth degree. I put him up there with that wacko president from Iran.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » January 6, 2006, 1:30 pm

I think he has just lost his mind, I remember back in the early 80s he preched a fairly normal message for a right-wing fundamentalist but now half his stuff is even wacko for those guys... sad actually because I think he is or was a man of God, but that's not for me to decide though I guess, heh, he has to work that out between him and God.

However I think when he says stuff like this it's not God speaking but Pat speaking who is frustraited because of declining membership in the 700 Club, his age and the fact that God's timeline of events may not be matching his... so he tries to pull the wackos in instead.

I have no doubt that what he said is in the Bible. However I have no doubt that he took it out of context as well. Years ago I throught Pat had a decent message, I didn't agree with much of it, but still he was saying many of the right things... until of course he got into politics in the late 80s and IMHO it all went down hill from there... but that's just my opinion. I do pray though that he gets things straightenend out in his own head before and too many people aren't lead astray by his antecs.

Me personally? The ONLY Evangelist I would listen too and put any creedence into their words is Billy Graham. The man has been doing it over 50 years with a constant message and one that for me personally, I agree with most of it. He is actually on TV from time to time, if you get a chance, listen to him and see what you think.

Marb

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 6, 2006, 3:49 pm

Umm, technically, don't the Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews? Allah = Jehova = Yaweh = God afaik....

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 6, 2006, 3:57 pm

masteen wrote:Umm, technically, don't the Muslims worship the same god as Christians and Jews? Allah = Jehova = Yaweh = God afaik....

yes

and that god is probably derived from the Zoroastrianarianist due Ahuru Mazda I think.

They invented Monotheism in the Babylon area I believe, which is of course where Abraham is from (Ur i believe is the name of the town...but yeah Abraham is a damn Iraqi....), so obviously he would have been culturally contacted by those traditions very deeply.

Certainly sufficiently to associate some of the emotional responses he perceived as divine communication in a manner analagous to that overarching montheistic tone from that religion.

But meanwhile back in reality, Pat Roberston is an idiot, has always been an idiot, and will always be an idiot. Marb the fact that a sensible guy like you gives him even the benefit of the doubt is a perfect illustration of how a guy like me who thinks he is basically equivalent to a Wahabiist Mullah in Riyadh spouting "Death to America" - it is a basic illustration of how guys of similar mind are very different in "red state America" v. "Blue State America". State is of course an arbitrary descriptor here, you simply look at urbanization, and population density to predict whether you are likely to vote R or D.

of course Marb and i vote the same way - its probabilty not individual predictor.

go find the velocity of an electron or something.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » January 8, 2006, 1:15 am

DOH, I didn't mean to give him the benefit of the doubt. I just said that at one time, which now looking back at it was over 20 years ago, his message didn't seem so radical... perhaps that was because I was young and was attending a right-wing freako conservative church at the time. Thus you may be correct that he was always a wacko - point noted.

From a Biblical perspective the land of Israel was given to Isaac by Abraham with his birthright. However as most know, Abraham had a previous son, Ishmael, with his "wife's maidservant" or possibly concubine (it's wasn't uncommon, the 12 "tribes" of Israel weren't all from "wives" I don't think either). Muslim believe that Ishmael was the rightful aire to Abraham not Isaac. Jews obviously (and most Christians of course) belive the opposite... Because Ishmael was the rightful aire and the land is the land of Abraham, Mohammad spent much time there as well which is another reason the land is Holy, not as much as Mecca to the Muslims but still one of their most Holy places....

Bottom line is that people have been arguing over this land for what? 5000 years? I don't see it clearing up anytime soon... NOR do I see God actively causing someone to have a stroke because he tried to make peace. In my belief system, that is what God would COMMEND since the Resurrection not condem.

But lets face it, except for Joel Osteen, love, peace, belief in the "yourself" God gave you etc... dosen't work well for these TV guys. It's much easier to get someone about to die to give your all the stuff if you use fear. Yea it goes against what they should be preaching IMHO but I guess for them it pays the bills. At least, IMHO, someday they will have to answer to God for that...

Marb

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » January 12, 2006, 6:42 pm

All three believe in the "same" god, as in there is only one.

The difference is believing who his Massiah, Son, or Prophet were/are and disbelieving the others.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 12, 2006, 7:28 pm

well not really.

you can't believe in the "Christian God" and not believe in "Jesus". one is defined as a manifestation of the other.

I think it is more accurate to say, all 3 derive from the same tradition but it is like a fork.

-------------------> Judaism
|
|---------------> Christianity
|
|---------> Islam

they are 3 distinctly different Gods in what "he" expects from his followers in order to curry favor.

its all semantics though. your statement is correct in the intent that you made it =)

masteen · Post by **masteen** » January 12, 2006, 8:20 pm

Also, the Bible never said that Yaweh was THE only god, just that he was YOUR god.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » January 13, 2006, 12:18 am

masteen wrote:Also, the Bible never said that Yaweh was THE only god, just that he was YOUR god.

Actually it was kind of clear that there WERE other gods, in that it states You shall not hold any other gods before me.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » January 13, 2006, 12:41 am

Actually... no.

There were other "gods" that people worshipped but they weren't really "gods." The Jews believe that there is only 1 true God (Yaweh), pagan "idols" don't count and just get you sent to the firey pit... Actually because the Jews are so very monotheistic, it has always been a challenge for mainstream Christians to convert them when they begin to talk about the Trinity because to many Jews you are no longer worshipping 1 God but 3.

Muslims believe they worship the 1 True God, the God of Abraham (Yaweh) but use the Allah which is Aribic for God rather than Yaweh which would be Hebrew.

I do see Vor's fork for Christian but I don't really see any difference between Judiasm and Islam in reference to "Who" they worship. They recognize many of the Jewish prophets, including Jesus (whom they see as a prophet) but believe that God sent another prophet whom has the correct message from the Almighty.

For Christians it's the same God of Abraham, we just believe that part of Him came to Earth as the Son and another Part proceeds out to infinity as the Holy Spirit. Personally I don't understand why anyone sees the "The Holy Spirit" as anything separate. If, by definition, God is everywhere then He is everywhere... His "Spirit" is everywhere... There are a lot of things I can't, don't and don't care to understand about organized religion. I have a presonal relationship with God, enabled through Christ's death and resurrection. I believe we should read, study, pray and work to be more like Him (easily known through His deeds) rather than what some "preacher" thinks is right.

But that's just me...

Marb

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » January 13, 2006, 12:45 am

But getting back to the subject... it looks like Pat was quick to apologize after the possibility of loosing some $$$ came his way...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/12/robert ... index.html

Marb

Truant · Post by **Truant** » January 13, 2006, 3:31 pm

Marbus wrote:There were other "gods" that people worshipped but they weren't really "gods."

lol. wtf were they then, oreos?

I'm kidding. I almost argued against my own point when I wrote it, but every translation I read used the word 'gods'. And I understand we're getting into semantics. But it was a poor choice of words on the almighty's part.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » January 13, 2006, 3:43 pm

Truant wrote:
masteen wrote:Also, the Bible never said that Yaweh was THE only god, just that he was YOUR god.
Actually it was kind of clear that there WERE other gods, in that it states You shall not hold any other gods before me.

I believe by this the Bible is referring to what it considers are false gods. Those of the Egyptians etc.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » January 13, 2006, 3:54 pm

Marbus wrote: For Christians it's the same God of Abraham, we just believe that part of Him came to Earth as the Son and another Part proceeds out to infinity as the Holy Spirit. Personally I don't understand why anyone sees the "The Holy Spirit" as anything separate. If, by definition, God is everywhere then He is everywhere... His "Spirit" is everywhere... There are a lot of things I can't, don't and don't care to understand about organized religion. I have a presonal relationship with God, enabled through Christ's death and resurrection. I believe we should read, study, pray and work to be more like Him (easily known through His deeds) rather than what some "preacher" thinks is right.

If you really look into the Trinity you find it explained as:
God is God in Heaven creator of everything and our spiritual father
Jesus is God's word made man and came to earth to die for our sins and reconcile our sins with the Father
The Holy Spirit is referred to as the great comforter that lives in us and helps us to strive to be/do what it is God has called us to be.

I also once heard a nice analogy about the Trinity. That basically the Trinity is an existance that we can't comprehend currently but is just another level of existance. Each portion of the Trinity is an entity we can comprehend that makes a single entity that we can not comprehend.
The analogy is that if you take six 2d squares and make a 3d cube the squares themselves are still squares. However, the squares also form together to make a single object that is entirely different from the pieces that make it. We can comprehend the 3d cube because we understand what the 3 dimensions are.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 13, 2006, 7:26 pm

kind of like how mathematically for electromagnetism to work with general relativity you actually have a 4th spatial dimension (curled on itself or something) and a time dimension.

of course depending on whether or not you are a proponent of a string theory flavor, supergravity or just one of the various quantum field theories you might laugh at 4 spatial dimensions and say, well yeah dipshit there are actually 9 spatial dimensions. At which point i'd laugh at your dumb ass and say, actually there are 10, which you should have known from fact that supergravity is a duality of a string variant, where at large (or maybe small) coupling constants the spatial extent of the string is manifested as more of a membrane, though the string doesn't of course resonate in this 10th spatial dimension because that would change the properties of our 19 quantum particles which of course require precisely 9 spatial dimensions to have their experimentally verified masses, and what not.

duh

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » January 13, 2006, 7:44 pm

I find it much simpler if you think of God as the personification of man's fears and the Churches as the exploitation of same.