Patriot Act renewal blocked in senate

miir · Post by **miir** » December 16, 2005, 3:14 pm

Good news for you guys.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051216/ts_ ... ot_vote_dc

miir · Post by **miir** » December 16, 2005, 3:20 pm

Actually, wouldn't that mean the senate supports terrorism?

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » December 16, 2005, 3:34 pm

Send the Senate to Gitmo, quick! Before it's illegal to!

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 16, 2005, 6:20 pm

You know, I can't help but feel sorry for the painfully ignorant people that get all up in arms about things like the patriot act, unfortunately my father is one of them.

It makes me sick to hear people whining about shit like, "why do they need to be able to monitor someones house and bla bla bla from a satelite" and all the other various points they try to make. If you arent a terrorist or doing something that would cause your life to be monitored you don't have anything to worry about.

If you think the government didn't secretly have and use all these methods before this act was passed you are definately out of touch with reality, they just didnt put any of it out in the open until the patriot act. And the only reason for it was to calm the public and assure them they are going over and above on their efforts to fight terrorism.

But hey, it gives the fucking libs more ammo to bush bash right....

Neost · Post by **Neost** » December 16, 2005, 6:25 pm

I believe there are more instances of the abridgement of freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments by those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.

James Madison

If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.

James Madison

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 16, 2005, 6:30 pm

I hope you aren't trying to say that our government is beginning to reign this country by tyranny and oppression.. If you are im sorry I even wasted my energy to make this much of a response to such complete and utter idiocy.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » December 16, 2005, 6:38 pm

The idiocy is all your Funkmasterr.

If you give the government the power to spy and monitor anyone they want then eventually they will find some reason to oppress the people. The Patriot Act gave the government way more power than it should ever of had. The government should not be spending its time watching ordinary citizens waiting for them to do something wrong. As the law stands now, the government could look at what books you checked out from the library and if they decided that books you read constituted even a hint of a threat then they could lock you up with no trial or proper representation for as long as they want. That is complete bullshit. The Patriot Act was a knee jerk reaction to 9/11 that never should have passed in the first place.

Some day FUnk you will look back and wonder how you could be a moron for beliving as you do now. Unfortunately that day may not come until you or your "innocent" friends are rounded up for "questioning".

Neost · Post by **Neost** » December 16, 2005, 6:45 pm

I didn't intimate in any way that rule was by tyranny and oppression. The lesson here my young padawan is this is the path to tyranny and oppression, recognized by the "Father of the Constitution" some 200 odd years ago.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 16, 2005, 7:30 pm

Deward wrote: Some day FUnk you will look back and wonder how you could be a moron for beliving as you do now. Unfortunately that day may not come until you or your "innocent" friends are rounded up for "questioning".

I'd anonymously shop Funk every other week if I was still over there being tailgated and spat on in parking lots

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » December 16, 2005, 8:08 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:You know, I can't help but feel sorry for the painfully ignorant people that get all up in arms about things like the patriot act, unfortunately my father is one of them.

It makes me sick to hear people whining about shit like, "why do they need to be able to monitor someones house and bla bla bla from a satelite" and all the other various points they try to make. If you arent a terrorist or doing something that would cause your life to be monitored you don't have anything to worry about.

If you think the government didn't secretly have and use all these methods before this act was passed you are definately out of touch with reality, they just didnt put any of it out in the open until the patriot act. And the only reason for it was to calm the public and assure them they are going over and above on their efforts to fight terrorism.

But hey, it gives the fucking libs more ammo to bush bash right....

Does your father ever ask for your opinion on where he went wrong with you?

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » December 16, 2005, 8:12 pm

He asks God instead, sadly God hasn't responded.... yet.

Burke · Post by **Burke** » December 16, 2005, 8:13 pm

But hey, it gives the fucking libs more ammo to bush bash right....

Funk,
Do you think Bush is doing a good job?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 16, 2005, 8:20 pm

Xyun wrote:He asks God instead, sadly God hasn't responded.... yet.

IIRC, God's only advice on child rearing involved banishment or ritual sacrifice of your kids.

OOOH, I see.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » December 16, 2005, 8:21 pm

Great and 2 years from now when 9/11 version 2.16 happens everyone will once again rage about why we didnt know it was coming.

oh well.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » December 16, 2005, 8:21 pm

Pity with all that street cred you didn't buy a brain.

Sumdaor · Post by **Sumdaor** » December 16, 2005, 8:25 pm

Great and 2 years from now when 9/11 version 2.16 happens everyone will once again rage about why we didnt know it was coming.

I will take the gamble and keep my civil liberties. The fact is 9/11 would have never happened if we had decent communication bewteen different agencies of goverment.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 16, 2005, 8:27 pm

Sendarie wrote:Great and 2 years from now when 9/11 version 2.16 happens everyone will once again rage about why we didnt know it was coming.

oh well.

You keep selling that Elephant repellant, buddy.

The concept that you have the resources to monitor every person that enters your borders closely enough to stop every possible attack vector is patently rediculous.

If you want a false sense of security, get yourself and damn binky.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 16, 2005, 8:28 pm

Sendarie wrote:Great and 2 years from now when 9/11 version 2.16 happens everyone will once again rage about why we didnt know it was coming.

oh well.

And it will still be failure to appropriately respond to data we had in hand...

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » December 16, 2005, 8:34 pm

Sendarie wrote:Great and 2 years from now when 9/11 version 2.16 happens everyone will once again rage about why we didnt know it was coming.

oh well.

It won't be in 2 years because Dubya will still be in office and God is on his side!

And I have 2 words for Fash: due process.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » December 16, 2005, 8:41 pm

Zaelath wrote: You keep selling that Elephant repellant, buddy.

The concept that you have the resources to monitor every person that enters your borders closely enough to stop every possible attack vector is patently rediculous.

If you want a false sense of security, get yourself and damn binky.

English much?

/shrug, It really doesnt matter much to me either way. We arent short on warm bodies here in the US, I just love the switch hitting constantly.

9/11....OMG WHY DIDNT WE KNOW...
Now....OMG we dont want to able to know

My view on the Patriot act....I couldnt give a rats ass less which way it goes. You are correct on that part Zaelath. We are an open/free country.
The people in this open/free country have blinders on to the "real" world and think life is actually supposed to be nice/fair.
You just couldnt ask for an easier target than that. A big fat kid with all the cool toys with his eyes pinched shut and his finers shoved in his ears.

noel · Post by **noel** » December 16, 2005, 9:09 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:I hope you aren't trying to say that our government is beginning to reign this country by tyranny and oppression.. If you are im sorry I even wasted my energy to make this much of a response to such complete and utter idiocy.

Don't be ignorant.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 16, 2005, 9:11 pm

Sendarie wrote:
English much?

The only word I can assume you're referring to is "binky" which as far as I'm aware is American slang, so no, not English much, asshat.

http://www.binkypatrol.org/

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » December 16, 2005, 9:19 pm

Better communications and less politicing between the various US intelligence agencies may well have prevented 9/11. Shoulda just used 9/11 as the leverage needed to smash the politics and territoriality out of the existing agencies, and the cash to do boosting of foreign agencies and some basic, non-intrusive internal stuff (air marshals forinstance), and to do Afganistan thoroughly and right.

That said, at this rate it wont be long till Iraq has cost the US more lives and cash than 9/11, which would seem to be counterproductive, and you'll have eroded rights and freedoms into the bargain. Yeah, thats a win...

*Hugs*
Varia

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » December 16, 2005, 9:32 pm

Wow I thought it was just typing too fast. Here let me help.

rediculous = Ridiculous

If you want a false sense of security, get yourself and damn binky.

And = a

Your my favorite Zael. Your so easy to bait and piss off.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 16, 2005, 10:00 pm

Here's a clue dumbass, this is a forum, not a fucking thesis.

Neither of those errors stopped you understanding what I was saying. In fact, spelling and syntactical errors of that type wouldn't even be marked down in an English exam.

How about you argue the point instead of just the poster for once, you worthless, parroting, anachronistic tosspot.

Oh and,

Your my favorite Zael

should be "You're". If you're going to stick with the pendantry you best be impeccable yourself.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » December 16, 2005, 10:26 pm

He's flaming and on a roll.
Your such a cute kid.

I posted my views on the topic and since when did anything on VV stay on topic?

edit: I really am sorry for the derail but I just cant resist with this guy. Its just so easy and fun.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » December 16, 2005, 10:48 pm

Zaelath wrote: You keep selling that Elephant repellant, buddy.

I don't agree fully with either side on this issue, but I gotta say that's a pretty good line to describe it

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 16, 2005, 10:58 pm

Sendarie wrote:Great and 2 years from now when 9/11 version 2.16 happens everyone will once again rage about why we didnt know it was coming.

oh well.

yeah I totally agree with you. I'd sacrifice all my freedom for security too.

also, it's been established pretty clearly that people in your government knew a lot about 9/11 version 1.0, only they were totally ignored by the bush administration because they weren't toadies in his inner circle.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 16, 2005, 11:15 pm

Sendarie wrote:He's flaming and on a roll.
Your such a cute kid.

I posted my views on the topic and since when did anything on VV stay on topic?

edit: I really am sorry for the derail but I just cant resist with this guy. Its just so easy and fun.

/yawn

I fail to see the thrill, but then, idiots are easily amused.

Rest assured, if you address me directly with a question, I will answer it. OMG, I'm just so easily baited... the alternative letting you ride over me like a small child in the road. While you see that as a no-win situation for me, I don't give a fuck. It's my time to waste. The exception being when your apparent lack of basic comprehension skills point to you being too stupid to argue with or transparent trolling, then you get a free pass.

As a time saver, here's your next post:

AHAHAHA, I got him again! *fapfapfap*

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » December 17, 2005, 12:28 am

Its going to be 9/11 times 100. You mean...yes 91,100.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » December 17, 2005, 1:00 am

Ok...maybe I misplaced the freedoms I lost due to the Patriot Act. Can anyone fill me in here?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 17, 2005, 1:01 am

kyoukan wrote:
Sendarie wrote:Great and 2 years from now when 9/11 version 2.16 happens everyone will once again rage about why we didnt know it was coming.

oh well.
yeah I totally agree with you. I'd sacrifice all my freedom for security too.

also, it's been established pretty clearly that people in your government knew a lot about 9/11 version 1.0, only they were totally ignored by the bush administration because they weren't toadies in his inner circle.

Patriot Act only hurts those who are doing wrong. No where in the Patriot Act does it take away all Americans freedoms. No where does it take away any freedom what so ever, except for the freedom to break the law.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 17, 2005, 1:35 am

you and your uneducated and mildly retarded kind that constantly vote for these neocon twats are what is wrong with america.

seriously, at least attempt to educate yourself before looking like a moron. the whole "well it doesn't effect people that don't break any laws!" is actually a parody of what intelligent people would think a stupid person would say about patriot act, not something you are actually supposed to say.

Abelard · Post by **Abelard** » December 17, 2005, 2:54 am

Props to capital hill as far as I'm concerned.

That was a terrible bill and idea from day one.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » December 17, 2005, 5:07 am

Indeed.

And anyone with half a brain could see that America (and certain other "western" countries) were going to be targetted for their unbelievably disgusting attitude to certain foreign countries.

Go read 1984 thx.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » December 17, 2005, 5:23 am

kyoukan wrote:you and your uneducated and mildly retarded kind that constantly vote for these neocon twats are what is wrong with america.

seriously, at least attempt to educate yourself before looking like a moron. the whole "well it doesn't effect people that don't break any laws!" is actually a parody of what intelligent people would think a stupid person would say about patriot act, not something you are actually supposed to say.

kyou.. your argument there is fucking ridiculous and makes no sense, even you must admit that.

i value truth and justice. if something's true, i don't care how it was unearthed.

tell me why the patriot act as intended for use on possible threats to the homeland is a bad idea.

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 17, 2005, 7:26 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
kyoukan wrote:
Sendarie wrote:Great and 2 years from now when 9/11 version 2.16 happens everyone will once again rage about why we didnt know it was coming.

oh well.
yeah I totally agree with you. I'd sacrifice all my freedom for security too.

also, it's been established pretty clearly that people in your government knew a lot about 9/11 version 1.0, only they were totally ignored by the bush administration because they weren't toadies in his inner circle.
Patriot Act only hurts those who are doing wrong. No where in the Patriot Act does it take away all Americans freedoms. No where does it take away any freedom what so ever, except for the freedom to break the law.

As much as it makes me ill to agree with midnyte, I agree 100%.

The bottom line is that the government was doing all this monitoring on who they felt like doing before the patriot act, and will continue to do it now after it has been shut down. If you can tell me in all honesty that you don't think this is true you need a serious reality check.

I want one of you to tell me one freedom that has been taken from you by the patriot act. I mean, for about 50 years now there have been "red flags" on phone conversations, and once it is red flagged the government will then listen to the whole conversation.

This is no different, the methods used by such things as outlined in the patriot act are to catch criminals.. Explain to me what the government is going to gain by tapping some random persons phone and listening to their conversation about what they are doing for holiday shopping, or how their significant other doesnt fuck them right anymore.

I mean, you people can't really believe what you are saying. I personally agree 100% with any tactic the government uses with no limitations to intercept these fucking scumbags. As far as im concerned they have no human rights, and if the goverment wants to pull their toe and fingernails off, and remove all unecessary organs and put them on life support, and beat them within an inch of their worthless life every day to get information we need, im all for it.

It's people like you who try and preserve all these imaginary freedoms and rights that are hurting the country and limiting it from doing what it needs to do, but you are so goddamn ignorant and so anti bush/anti republican that you will go right along with it.

And yes, I do think Bush is doing a better job then Kerry could have done in his wildest dreams. Kerry is an idealistic liberal sack of shit and would have ruined this country and put our safety and policies in the hands of people that don't need to have that control, but once again go ahead and believe all the bullshit that the liberal fuckstains spoon feed you dumb motherfuckers every day.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » December 17, 2005, 8:16 am

Allowing surveilance of US citizens by law enforement with no oversight and no notification or recourse to the people being monitored is very wrong. If they'd tried to pass this bill in the 60s or 70s there'd have been a huge outcry. If you'll recall that was right after we'd had a couple decades of scandles over this exact thing.

The offical government line of "We don't spy on US citizens with out court order" needs to be adhered to without exception. From what I read yesterday, the "limited" 2 week unsupervised monitoring orders have been abused heavily. Yes it's only allowed for 2 weeks without going to court, some have been reauthorized every 2 weeks 2 years. See anything wrong with that?

This is something that shouldn't have ever passed, and is an open door to abuse by people who mean well. Remember Hoover and McCarthy to name a couple glaring examples? It's also a precurser to abuse by people who don't mean well. Our govt is segregated into the partitions it's in for very good reason, when we start to eliminate or blur the balance we've got that's a very bad road to go down.

Same with granting police powers to the military, that's not someplace I think we want to go. The NSA and the military need to continue to be focused outside our country.

Our laws and rules in this respect aren't there due to paranoia about the future. They were all enacted due to past abuses, some before the founding of the country.

Do you believe that people who pursue positions of power have become sainted and altruistic in the last 200+ years?

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » December 17, 2005, 9:02 am

Im gonna make an assumption here, but i find it funny that (i assume) everyone on this forum wont install spyware because they dont want anyone who can monitor their browsing behaviour, BUT are perfectly willing to let a inept government do the same thing with their lives.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 17, 2005, 9:51 am

Oh yeah, there's no abuse of power within the government:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/12/16 ... _backyard/

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 17, 2005, 10:07 am

Aabidano wrote:Allowing surveilance of US citizens by law enforement with no oversight and no notification or recourse to the people being monitored is very wrong.

Notification? Are you fucking serious? You want those being monitored to know about it? Don't you think if they knew, they would cease doing what they were planning on doing? Brilliant!

Animale · Post by **Animale** » December 17, 2005, 10:39 am

Damn straight we do Mid. There needs to be some form of oversight on this, in a somewhat open fashion (i.e. at least Judicial oversight, perhaps legislative oversight as well). One compromise I saw (that didn't make it through) was that for a "sneak and peak" to take place would need a court order AND the signature of the FBI director. This would help ensure that only searches of actual national security importance would take place, and help limit those that are for dubious national security reasons (i.e. drug dealers and the like).

The reason this stuff is falling apart is that the Republicans in the West (such as Idaho, Wyoming, and Eastern Oregon/Washington, Arizona, etc.) are receiving TONS of pressure from their constituents to have government back off from these provisions. Privacy is a BIG issue in those areas, and stuff like Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc. garners public sympathy because the government "put its nose where it don't belong." The PATRIOT ACT is just another one of those government intrusions into our private lives, and the libertarian bent of the western republicans is causing them to balk at giving away their freedoms. Hopefully, the western senators can hold fast in the pressure that's being put down from the White House.

Animale

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 17, 2005, 11:14 am

Then all I can do is hope the next big attack doesn't affect my family and friends.

Animale · Post by **Animale** » December 17, 2005, 12:38 pm

As do we all. However, I am willing to pay a price for our freedoms. That price is a slightly higher risk of foreign agents being able to live in our society freely.

Any other way is not the America that soldiers have died to defend throughout the years, but is instead an America that has betrayed our core beliefs and ways of life. Not a good place to be.

I, for one, have mailed a letter of support to my senators to oppose the PATRIOT ACT renewal, and hope the those of you who also feel this way do so as well (especially if they are Republican). For more information on how to do this, see the ACLU website.

It's time for these unconstitutional, unAmerican policies to be abolished. I know I don't want the government looking in my sock drawer, even if I have nothing to hide.

Animale

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » December 17, 2005, 1:44 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Notification? Are you fucking serious? You want those being monitored to know about it? Don't you think if they knew, they would cease doing what they were planning on doing? Brilliant!

Have you read what wasn't renewed? Secret evidence gained by secret means and secret charges in a secret court. See anything wrong with that picture? If you don't you'd have loved Soviet Russia, or the current PRC.

There's nothing wrong with congressional and judicial oversight of our national security and law enforcement agencies.

Notification wasn't a good way to put it, I was speaking of being able to find out that you'd been monitored after the fact, which you can't currently do. If you do have knowledge that it has happened, you've no recourse whatsoever to hold them accountable, as communicating that it happened is illegal as well.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » December 17, 2005, 1:51 pm

The Patriot act is just 1 step, it may not have, itself, affected you to date. Another step that few people even put much thought to, is the disarming of the population. the passed 10 years have seen numerouse bans on firearms wich anyone would consider effective. Another step would be unifying the population against a single "common" enemy. Wich would be used as the excuse for any other populace controling actions.

1933 a new chancelor is elected. 1934 the "figurehead" president dies leaving the nation without its "believed" leader, Firearm registration begins. Those not deemed "fit" to carry a weapon have it removed. 1935 the government in power begins its campaign of "unifying the nation against the jews". 1936 any govt officials not on the hardline are removed from power, some by bullet. 1938 Military service become Cumpolsory. 1939 war is declared under false pretenses, the story beeing "Polish troops attack a radio station". 1941 a meeting takes place by party bigwigs to discus "the jewish question". 1942 concentration camps are opened in occupied poland, deportation to these camps begins in ernest.

Now how does any of that effect the law abiding german citizen? Hell unless he was of military age, he had no clue anything was wrong until the bombs started falling on his own town.

The constitution is there TO LIMIT THE POWER OF THE GOVERNMENT!
Any action taken against or around the constitution is a bad thing designed to give them more power. Our right "to bare arms" is not for hunting or protection from criminals, its for armed revolution whenever the people in power take it to far.

Apostate · Post by **Apostate** » December 17, 2005, 1:59 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Patriot Act only hurts those who are doing wrong. No where in the Patriot Act does it take away all Americans freedoms. No where does it take away any freedom what so ever, except for the freedom to break the law.

Heh.

The FBI is a political organization as much as a law enforcement one. Even the most cynical of you probably don't think of it in those terms, and this is a huge mistake- it isn't more even-handed or unbiased or less corrupt than the lawmaking part of our government, and is frequently used as a political tool. Unfortunately for me, I've had experience of the FBI being used as a harassment tactic in a morally bankrupt political maneuver designed to harass one group by another group in government, and the Patriot Act has personally cost me no small amount of money and an awful lot of time.

What you guys don't get is it won't be restricted to Terrorism at all, and hasn't been- if your company is going in for a government contract, and another company's CEO is friends with the DA, you are pretty much fucked, because you can guarantee that you are going to be investigated and have thousands upon thousands of man hours lost in investigations that of course turn up nothing. The same would be true for IRS and audits (there was a shakedown at the IRS not long ago due to that), and other groups of government. And I hope to your own sake you aren't so naive to think you'd ever be treated as less than a criminal when nothing is found, let alone receive an apology or compensation. Good luck with that, you will be harassed until you are safely out of the political picture, or you weather it out.

I'm less offended by Midnyte's post then see it as awestrikingly naive. So yeah, for you kids with a heartbreaking faith in government that say, 'If you never do anything wrong, you have nothing to fear', I hope to god you never annoy someone with any measure of political clout, since you'll be in for a pretty fast world view shift.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 17, 2005, 3:11 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Notification? Are you fucking serious? You want those being monitored to know about it? Don't you think if they knew, they would cease doing what they were planning on doing? Brilliant!

You can't seriously be this stupid? He didn't mean notifying the person being monitored, you fucking retarded jackass. Before Patriot Act you needed a court order and legal justification before the US gov't could spy on an american citizen. Now federal law enforcement can spy on whoever they feel like, for whatever reason they want to.

Neost · Post by **Neost** » December 17, 2005, 5:23 pm

How can you not see that court oversight of law enforcement spying is to protect the very person you say won't be hurt by spying? The ones doing nothing illegal SHOULD NOT be spied on.

It is a simple check and balance against the abuse of power. If I'm a cop and I think someone is doing something illegal, I have to prove that to a court officer before I can go and violate his rights to privacy and tap his phones, emails, open his mail, etc. etc.

Now with the admission of GWB that he signed a "secret" order authorizing the NSA to violate the rights of thousands of Americans it is time for him to go. The fucking politico's in Washington tried to impeach Clinton for getting a blow job, it is now time to string Bush up for spying on the American people period.

Now, if some of you go back you will see that I supported the move against Afghanistan and I even believe that taking Saddam out was the correct move. I didn't support it because I support GWB, I thought it was the right thing to do to get a better toehold in the mideast and give us better chance against a bunch of motherfuckers with a hardon for the US.

I did vote for him because I couldn't stomach Kerry.

But with the revelations of the past couple of days that he totally ignored the fact he is sworn to uphold and defend the constitution instead of ignoring it and laying waste to the very foundations of freedom that this country was founded on it is time for him to go. I can't believe there isn't anyone already screaming for impeachment based on him signing a secret order to allow the NSA to spy on Americans without oversight of any kind.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » December 17, 2005, 8:04 pm

I think I'd rather have a castrated Bush in office than Cheney...