Tookie Williams

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 13, 2005, 2:48 am

Could have looked to see if someone posted this first, but didn't really feel like it.

I was just wondering being that he is getting his lethal injection real shortly here I would see what other people thought.

I personally thought Arnold would take him off death row and just leave him in prison for a life sentence, but that obviously didn't happen.

I kind of think this should have been what happened though, no im not saying I think he should have been released, but he has done a far cry more than any police/government agency has to combat gang violence since he has been in prison.

Figured this would be a good one to get people going on.

Oh and Midnyte, I know what you are gonna say before you even say it.. so maybe just keep it to yourself.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » December 13, 2005, 2:57 am

Had Ahhnuld changed the sentence to life without parole, people would be up-in-arms about how any amount of whining will get the job done. On the other hand, I'm sure the race card will be played here to accuse the Schwartz of "disregarding" the NCAAP's wishes on purpose. My point is that The Terminator's probably not going to be very popular for a short while.

But that's just what I think, and I'm probably wrong!

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 13, 2005, 3:02 am

He shot a guy who was laying face down on the ground twice with a 12guage shotgun and killed a faimly of 3 and stealing $100 from them. He doesnt deserve to live.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » December 13, 2005, 3:04 am

he has done a far cry more than any police/government agency has to combat gang violence since he has been in prison.

I think that is totally ridiculous and self-evidently wrong.

Beyond that, though, I generally don't trust our government enough to correctly apply a death penalty, especially in cases where the convict has shown a desire to do something productive with the time he can have in jail. However, I'm not a big right-to-life person, and I don't tend to get particularly worked up about the death penalty because of the small portion of people it affects. Doesn't bother me much.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » December 13, 2005, 3:05 am

a "desire to do something productive" doesnt mean shit after you kill 3 people.

I'm glad he had 25 years of breath to do something productive with and made that decision. He can die without being ashamed of himself. If there is a god, perhaps he has a shot at redemption.

But give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and today Caesar takes this man's life.

He killed 3 people. There is no return from that.

I too don't trust the government to properly implement the death penalty, which is the only reason i dont think all murder convictions should be capital offenses. And they should do it a hell of a lot faster than 20 years.

I got news for you, if you get killed you are fucking dead and that's it, and your parents - all those 20+ years of blood, sweat and tears they ground out for you giving you everything they had and then some is gone. All the good you could have done for your own family is gone. All the productivity you offer to society is gone.

the guy should be happy he had 20 years to do something with his life, and good for him for that. At least the delay in execution was not a waste. At least that taxpayer money was not a waste.

But kill the piece of shit and throw him in a ditch.

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » December 13, 2005, 3:29 am

Terminated!

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » December 13, 2005, 4:37 am

I fully agree with Voro.

He lived 20+ years longer then he should have, which is the real issue. Hell the Nightstalker is still alive AND was allowed to marry someone. WTF is up with that?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » December 13, 2005, 6:33 am

its been proven time and time again that capital punishment is not a deterrant. why then should this man be executed. if he can do an ounce of good to someone then it's worth it to keep him around.

pragmatically speaking I'm not opposed to the death penalty for people who are quite literally caught red handed or confess their guilt in court and then just sit their ass down on death row and wait for someone to fry them. however I see no reason to if the person is doing good in the world. I know americans like to see criminals punished instead of reformed in some bizzare hope that one day it will actually deter anti social behaviour, but there really is no reason to fry this guy.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 13, 2005, 6:47 am

I see keeping him alive as a waste of food and resources. The circus that surrounds carrying out a death penalty kind of negates that though.

Edit: (removed remainder of post due to severe grammar violations)

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » December 13, 2005, 9:10 am

Ding Dong the Crip is Dead.

Let the riots and lootings begin!

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 13, 2005, 9:14 am

kyoukan wrote:its been proven time and time again that capital punishment is not a deterrant. why then should this man be executed. if he can do an ounce of good to someone then it's worth it to keep him around.

There's been recent studies to the contrary; http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/12/ ... 95609.html

As they starkly report their central finding: each execution results in an average of 18 fewer murders. Or, to present the finding in an even more unsettling way: any state that refuses to impose the death penalty for murder is condemning 18 or so innocent people to death.

Hard to say if their methods are valid though... indeed:

Wolfers re-examines the data used by the team from Emory University and finds that when it is treated correctly it no longer shows that each execution saves about 18 lives. Instead it shows that each execution brings about an extra 18 deaths!

I always have trouble differentiating between the "red-handed" and other cases too. Just because 3 cops swear they saw someone in the act, and arrested them immediately, it's not like there's zero chance the cops are corrupt; in fact, I would think the chances are "statistically significant".

All that said, I support the death penalty for anything from rape on up =p Not that it matters here, there's no chance it will be reinstituted in Australia in the foreseeable future.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » December 13, 2005, 9:31 am

kyoukan wrote:its been proven time and time again that capital punishment is not a deterrant.

As implemented in the US right now, you're probably right. Our system has shifted from being a deterrent\reform system to one who's aim is to make people, not necessarily the victims feel better. Hooray for politics and waterheaded treehuggers. Life imprisonment is an idiotic concept if you think of it, it defeats any benefits imprisonment might have to all concerned. Except those whose careers are furthered by perpetuating the system of course.

Winnow wrote:I see keeping him alive a waste of food and resources.

My thought as well. Would you feed and care for cockroaches or termites?

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » December 13, 2005, 10:12 am

If we put in a death row express lane, I can guarantee you the violent crime will go down. Criminals tend to be pussies when faced with even odds or danger. Hell, in states that institute concealed carry laws, violent crime has dropped across the board in them. The flip side to that is property crimes go up.....which shows they are avoiding confrontations with people who may be armed and taking the path of least resistance. Start frying these assholes immediately and you will see a sharp downturn in homicides.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 13, 2005, 10:29 am

WOOOT!!!!

DING DONG THE SCUMBAG's DEAD!!!

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 13, 2005, 11:12 am

i don't think he should have been executed 25 years later. it just doesn't make sense.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 13, 2005, 11:22 am

Texas I believe has sort of a "fast track" to execution. Anyone have the figures on crime in there?

Deward · Post by **Deward** » December 13, 2005, 11:44 am

The death penalty may not be a deterrent to other criminals but it is one big deterrent to the guy getting the shot. He won't be killing anymore people.

I don't know the details of his crime and whether he was caught red-handed or not. I agree that the death penalty should only be given to those convicted with indisputable evidence. It is rediculous that even with a confession, it can take 20 years before the person is put to death.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » December 13, 2005, 11:48 am

Capital punishment = State Sponsored Murder

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 13, 2005, 11:50 am

Spang wrote:i don't think he should have been executed 25 years later. it just doesn't make sense.

Your problem is with how long the process takes. Surely 25 years hasn't erased what he did. The focus needs to be on allowing a fair appeal process, but shortening the allowable time period for it and limiting the number of appeals to one.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » December 13, 2005, 11:57 am

Pherr the Dorf wrote:Capital punishment = State Sponsored Murder

What's your alternative "corrective measure" for someone who's on video executing a convenience store clerk? Locking them up forever seems kind of dumb to me, it's no longer a meaningful punishment.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 13, 2005, 12:33 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Your problem is with how long the process takes. Surely 25 years hasn't erased what he did. The focus needs to be on allowing a fair appeal process, but shortening the allowable time period for it and limiting the number of appeals to one.

i just don't think the punishment fits the crime anymore after a certain period of time. 25 years in this case. some people will go to prison for murder and never outgrow that mentality. this person didn't appear to fit that description 25 years later. he appeared to be rehabilitated. i'm not saying set him free but i just don't think executaion was the proper thing to do at this point.

what's the average time a person spends on death row before they are executed?

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 13, 2005, 1:07 pm

I dont believe he has shown any kind of penance for the murders.

miir · Post by **miir** » December 13, 2005, 1:17 pm

Sionistic wrote:I dont believe he has shown any kind of penance for the murders.

Well, he's never admitted his guilt in the murders...

I'm not personally familiar with how 'penance' works in a Christian church, but admitting guilt, saying you're sorry and doing X number of hail mary's doesn't really seem like it would make a whole lot of difference.

He seems to have made an effort to better himself and make a positive contribution to society while he's been incarcerated...

*shrug*

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 13, 2005, 1:23 pm

Death penalties should be carried out the same manner in which the original crime was committed. In this case, Tookie should have been shot in the back with a shotgun...some time spent listening to to blood "gurgle" and then shot again in the back. The shame of it all is it couldn't be repeated four times.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 13, 2005, 1:23 pm

Well maybe penance was the wrong word to use. Basically he had never admitted nor shown being sorry at all for the murders.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » December 13, 2005, 1:25 pm

Hey Spang,

How about the 4 fucking people he put in the grave. Did he give them any kind of reprieve? There is a huge difference between robbing someone and killing them. He robbed those people, nothing said he had to then go the extra step and murder them. He made his choice and he knew the consequences. Why he got to live 25 more years is beyond me. I know it sounds melodramatic, but how do you know the kid he killed would not have found a cure to some disease, saved someone else or any number of things? We won't know because he was an asshole with a gun and thought he was bad ass.

Kyou, no one is afraid because they never see someone they know get the death penalty RIGHT AWAY. This is 25 years later. If he was killed a year or two later it would have been a big difference.

The other thing that bugs me is the Rascist death penalty signs that were outside of the building. While there is definitely issues with african americans making up the majority of arrests, I would be interested in seeing the percentage of death row inmates put to death. Seems like the majority I have seen being put to death were actually white. I bet the % of whites put to death vs. actual population is significantly higher, so I fail to see the rascist agenda. Again, I might agree on the actual % of arrests showing a possible rascist agenda, but not death penalties.

What was the dumb ass comment you made on the other thread Kyou, People reap what they sow? This is the perfect case for that arguement.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 13, 2005, 1:30 pm

whoa, relax!

i believe in the death penalty, just not 25 years after the sentance.

miir · Post by **miir** » December 13, 2005, 1:30 pm

If the anti-gang books he wrote, and if the proceeds donated to anti-gang groups stopped even just 1 kid from joining a gang, wouldn't he have contributed more to society than a lot of people?

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » December 13, 2005, 1:32 pm

Whats the value of 4 lives?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 13, 2005, 1:34 pm

miir wrote:If the anti-gang books he wrote, and if the proceeds donated to anti-gang groups stopped even just 1 kid from joining a gang, wouldn't he have contributed more to society than a lot of people?

Worst argument ever. Would you forgive Hitler if he wrote a book that saved just one skinhead from a life of short hair?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 13, 2005, 1:40 pm

Spang wrote:whoa, relax!

i believe in the death penalty, just not 25 years after the sentance.

No relaxing. You aren't making any sense. 25 years doesn't change anything. Time heals all wounds, except the permanant ones.

miir · Post by **miir** » December 13, 2005, 1:41 pm

What contributions to society have you made that are comparable, Winnow?

miir · Post by **miir** » December 13, 2005, 1:43 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Spang wrote:whoa, relax!

i believe in the death penalty, just not 25 years after the sentance.
No relaxing. You aren't making any sense. 25 years doesn't change anything. Time heals all wounds, except the permanant ones.

Do you personally know the families of the victims?
Do you know if they have forgiven him or if their emotional wounds have healed?
Do you know if the 'murder' of this guy brings them any sense of closure?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 13, 2005, 1:48 pm

miir wrote:What contributions to society have you made that are comparable, Winnow?

I donate my junk to the salvation army. Just yesterday I gave them an unused box of 5.25 floppies I found in a closet. I hope I improved someone's life. Praise God. I feel better about myself now.

Why not focus on my Hitler reference instead of trying to hijack the thread by pulling the grade school "twist" while withholding the coup de grace rubber/glue post for later?

miir · Post by **miir** » December 13, 2005, 1:53 pm

Winnow wrote:
miir wrote:What contributions to society have you made that are comparable, Winnow?
I donate my junk to the salvation army. Just yesterday I gave them an unused box of 5.25 floppies I found in a closet. I hope I improved someone's life. Praise God. I feel better about myself now.

Why not focus on my Hitler reference instead of trying to hijack the thread by pulling the grade school "twist" while withholding the coup de grace rubber/glue post for later?

What the fuck was I thinking trying to have a semi-serious discussion here.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » December 13, 2005, 1:55 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:No relaxing. You aren't making any sense. 25 years doesn't change anything. Time heals all wounds, except the permanant ones.

it doesn't change what he did but finally getting around to punishing him 25 years later, like i said earlier, doesn't make any sense to me. he should have been executed months after his sentence. not years. it'd be a greater impact to society if it were done a lot sooner.

which is also why i asked my first question above.

Animale · Post by **Animale** » December 13, 2005, 2:19 pm

And our society's hands are once more bathed in blood. Hopefully someday soon we will see that the death penalty does nothing more than condemn us to continuing the cycle of violence.

Animale

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 13, 2005, 2:22 pm

Animale wrote:And our society's hands are once more bathed in blood.

You'd think Caesar had just been murdered in the forum or something! I'm sure there was very little blood from the little hole the needle made.

cadalano · Post by **cadalano** » December 13, 2005, 2:31 pm

If he wants to combat gang violence then he can set an example of what happens when you participate in it. You don't get forgiveness. You eat shit.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 13, 2005, 2:43 pm

miir wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Spang wrote:whoa, relax!

i believe in the death penalty, just not 25 years after the sentance.
No relaxing. You aren't making any sense. 25 years doesn't change anything. Time heals all wounds, except the permanant ones.

Do you personally know the families of the victims?
Do you know if they have forgiven him or if their emotional wounds have healed?
Do you know if the 'murder' of this guy brings them any sense of closure?

Nope, nope, and nope.

And most inportantly. I don't care. The law, thankfully, is if you kill someone you get killed:) I wish it was that way in every state and done with much more expediancy than it currently is being done.

Personally I think our judicial system is slow and overcrowded with frivolous cases. An accused criminal should be tried within 3 months of the crime and if an appeal is necessary, it should be done and over with within a year of the arrest. After that if it is a death penalty case, the muther fucker should die within 5 days of the sentence being upheld.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 13, 2005, 2:44 pm

Animale wrote:And our society's hands are once more bathed in blood. Hopefully someday soon we will see that the death penalty does nothing more than condemn us to continuing the cycle of violence.

Animale

Oh how poetic. Thank god our lives aren't dependant on poets to protect us.

Abelard · Post by **Abelard** » December 13, 2005, 4:12 pm

I disagree with the death penalty.

I think that it doesn't really deter people from committing crimes. Now it just seems like a way of making more room in prisons. The way I see it, if he was contributing something valuable to the world then he should have been given life in prison to keep on contributing.

I hope the families affected from his crime have found some solace in his execution.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » December 13, 2005, 4:25 pm

kyoukan wrote:if he can do an ounce of good to someone then it's worth it to keep him around.

We could have sent him to your house to repeatedly sodomize and beat you till you were rendered a drooling mindless piece of refuse...but now it's too late.*

*you already ARE a drooling mindless piece of refuse! LOLOL

Shaerra · Post by **Shaerra** » December 13, 2005, 5:28 pm

It's nice that he had 25 years to write childrens books and hob-nob with celebrities.

That's more than he gave the little girl and her parents when he executed them for some pocket money...

miir · Post by **miir** » December 13, 2005, 5:44 pm

Shaerra wrote:It's nice that he had 25 years to write childrens books and hob-nob with celebrities.

That's more than he gave the little girl and her parents when he executed them for some pocket money...

Yeah, he was hob-nobbing with celebrities in prison.

And I don't see how you can fault him for writing books to discourage children from joining a gang. Maybe you want to lambaste him for donating all the proceeds from the sales of those books to anti-gang groups, programs and charities.

Nobody is saying he's a nice-guy or a model citizen, but I'm struggling to see what executing him 25 years after the fact accomplishes. What is the point of the death penalty other than to satiate the bloodlust of the lowest common denominator.
It's not a deterrant.

The US is the only western country with capital punishment. If it was an effective deterrant, you would think that the violent crime rate would be amongst the lowest, if not the lowest.

In reality, the opposite is true.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » December 13, 2005, 7:27 pm

Fuck deterrence. This is about justice. I'm glad he's dead, and I hope he burns in Hell.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » December 13, 2005, 7:31 pm

masteen wrote:Fuck deterrence. This is about justice. I'm glad he's dead, and I hope he burns in Hell.

I agree. I think more people would agree if Samuel L. Jackson uttered those words in an angry, Pulp Fiction way!

Funkmasterr · Post by **Funkmasterr** » December 13, 2005, 7:35 pm

It's people with mindsets like you midnyte, that get innocent people killed all the fucking time, you are are worthless sack of shit and I really hope one day someone goes out of their way to make you truly understand this.

So they should kill people as fast as possible, eh? How about the countless cases where someone was framed or wrongfully acused and had a handful of appeals over a large amount of years, and 25 years later it was found that they were in fact innocent.. Ruben Carter is a popular one just off the top of my head..

Thats the problem, im not saying this in the particular case of Tookie, cause it seems he was caught on video or whatnot. But in the time that he was doing this, racism running rampid in the police department combined with the whole public wanting to put a stop to the whole gang thing could have led to a shit ton of wrongful arrests and people being framed.

There is no way you can get rid of this problem, so I dont think there is ever a way you are going to get the process of executing someone sped up much at all.

You can argue all you want about the Tookie case, but the fact of the matter is, it seems he pretty well was sorry for what he started (the crips) and he did what was in his power to combat the situation. Bear in mind he is far from the only notorious gangster, and also not the only founding member of the only gang.

The fact is that the effort he made to make his peace with himself before he went did more good for more people than anyone on this board will ever do. No that doesn't make what he did any better but the fact still remains.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » December 13, 2005, 7:51 pm

Tyek wrote: The other thing that bugs me is the Rascist death penalty signs that were outside of the building. While there is definitely issues with african americans making up the majority of arrests, I would be interested in seeing the percentage of death row inmates put to death. Seems like the majority I have seen being put to death were actually white. I bet the % of whites put to death vs. actual population is significantly higher, so I fail to see the rascist agenda. Again, I might agree on the actual % of arrests showing a possible rascist agenda, but not death penalties.

Since 1976 (missing a few recent executions):
998 people executed
577 white (58%)
336 black (34%)
63 Hispanic (6%)
22 Asian (2%)

Race of victim in capital punishment cases:
80% white
14% black
4% hispanic
2% other

Race of death row inmates:
1419 black (42%)
1532 white (46%)
352 hispanic (10%)
80 other (2%)

Persons execute for interracial murders:
White defendant/black victim: 12
Black defendant/white victim: 206

Innocent people on death row:
120 people released since 1973
8 in 2000, 9 in 2001/2002, 12 in 2003 and 6 in 2004.

Deterrence:
- 84% of criminologists believe it is not a deterrence. 12% said yes.
- The south has the highest murder rates, and account for over 80% of executions
- Police chiefs place capital punishment last in methods to reduce violent crime

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/FactSheet.pdf

Midnyte_Ragebringer · December 13, 2005, 7:56 pm

Funkmasterr wrote:It's people with mindsets like you midnyte, that get innocent people killed all the fucking time, you are are worthless sack of shit and I really hope one day someone goes out of their way to make you truly understand this.
.

There is the reason why you cannot grasp what I have said and also why you are not worth conversing with. You would wish me physical harm? It is people like me? People like me who expect the system to be just and swift? To get things right the first time...to not drag things out over 25 years....so that assholes like you think "gee...he did it so long ago and has written childrens books." FUCK YOU

VeeshanVault

Tookie Williams

What do you feel they should have done with Tookie Williams

Tookie Williams