Riots in Paris

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » November 5, 2005, 3:03 pm

Marauding youths torched nearly 900 vehicles, stoned paramedics and burned a nursery school in a ninth night of violence that spread from Paris suburbs to towns around France, police said Saturday. Authorities arrested more than 250 people overnight - a sweep unprecedented since the unrest began.

For the first time, authorities used a helicopter to chase down youths armed with gasoline bombs who raced from arson attack to arson attack, national police spokesman Patrick Hamon said.

The violence, which was concentrated in neighborhoods with large African and Muslim populations but has since spread, has forced France to address the simmering anger of its suburbs, where immigrants and their French-born children live on the margins of society.

With 897 vehicles destroyed by daybreak Saturday, it was the worst one-day toll since unrest broke out after the Oct. 27 accidental electrocution of two teenagers who believed police were chasing them. Five hundred cars were burned a night earlier.

In a particularly malevolent turn, youths in the eastern Paris suburb of Meaux prevented paramedics from evacuating a sick person from a housing project, pelting rescuers with rocks and torching the awaiting ambulance, an Interior Ministry official said.

A nursery school was badly burned in Acheres, west of Paris.

The town had previously escaped the violence, the worst rioting in at least a decade in France. Some residents demanded that the army be deployed, or that citizens band together to protect their neighborhoods. At the school gate, Mayor Alain Outreman tried to calm tempers.

"We are not going to start militias," he said. "You would have to be everywhere."

Unrest, mainly arson, was reported in the northern city of Lille, in Toulouse in the southwest and in the Normandy city of Rouen. It was the second night that troubles spread beyond the difficult Paris suburbs.

In Suresnes, a normally calm town just west of the capital, 44 cars were burned in a lot.

On Saturday morning, more than 1,000 people took part in a silent march in one of the worst-hit suburbs, Aulnay-sous-Bois. One banner read: "No to violence."

Police detained 258 people overnight, almost all in the Paris region, and dozens of them will be prosecuted, Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy said after a government crisis meeting.

"Violence penalizes those who live in the toughest conditions," he said. "Violence is not the solution."

Most attacks have been in towns with low-income housing projects, areas marked by high unemployment, crime and despair. But in a new development, gangs have left their heavily policed neighborhoods to attack others with fewer police, spreading the violence.

Police deployed overnight in smaller, more mobile teams to chase rioters getting around in cars and on motorcycles, said Hamon, the police spokesman.

There appeared to be no coordination among gangs in different areas, Hamon said. Within gangs, however, youths communicated by cell phone text messages or e-mails and warned each other about police, he said.

Anger against police was fanned days ago when a tear gas bomb exploded in a mosque in Clichy-sous-Bois, north of Paris - the same surburb where the youths were electrocuted. Youths suspected a police operation, but Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin met Saturday with the head of the Paris mosque and denied that police were to blame.

The persistence of the violence prompted the American and Russian governments to advise citizens visiting Paris to steer clear of the suburbs.

In Torcy, east of the capital, looters set fire to a youth center and a police station, which were gutted, city hall said. An incendiary device was tossed at the wall of a synagogue in Pierrefitte, northwest of Paris.

A police officer at the Interior Ministry operations center said bullets were fired into a vandalized bus in Sarcelles, north of Paris.

Firefighters battled a furious blaze at a carpet warehouse in Aubervilliers, on the northern edge of Paris.

This is crazy stuff. People stopping and burning an ambulance trying to help sick people, rioting, arson. I did not realize they had that serious of a problem there.

Leonaerd · Post by **Leonaerd** » November 5, 2005, 3:21 pm

What's scary is that we haven't seen a report in our news. Maybe there have been glimpses (I'm not the omni-news master), but I don't feel there has been adequate attention to a story this huge.

To quote a buddy on a different forum, commenting on the same story:

BulvaiHammersson wrote:Now I could continue to post links and articles all day, but until you get to something like Fox News, or blogs, you will notice one word that is conspicuous in its' absence - Muslim. When I read the first article that I noticed on these riots, I recognised the town name (Clichy-whatever), but couldn't remember why. I'm sitting there looking at the article and wondering why French kids would be so damned up in arms. then I realised that Clichy-whatever was the site of Muslim unrest last (IIRC). And, no kidding, there was an arrest involving a (muslim) youth setting a young (muslim) woman on fire. No mention of that whole 'muslim' thing.

But we are talking about the EU, where it is illegal to call a 'trowel' a 'trowel' (can't use 'spade' it has racial connotations).

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » November 5, 2005, 4:15 pm

Leonaerd wrote:What's scary is that we haven't seen a report in our news. Maybe there have been glimpses (I'm not the omni-news master), but I don't feel there has been adequate attention to a story this huge.

To quote a buddy on a different forum, commenting on the same story:
BulvaiHammersson wrote:Now I could continue to post links and articles all day, but until you get to something like Fox News, or blogs, you will notice one word that is conspicuous in its' absence - Muslim. When I read the first article that I noticed on these riots, I recognised the town name (Clichy-whatever), but couldn't remember why. I'm sitting there looking at the article and wondering why French kids would be so damned up in arms. then I realised that Clichy-whatever was the site of Muslim unrest last (IIRC). And, no kidding, there was an arrest involving a (muslim) youth setting a young (muslim) woman on fire. No mention of that whole 'muslim' thing.

But we are talking about the EU, where it is illegal to call a 'trowel' a 'trowel' (can't use 'spade' it has racial connotations).

Maybe it's because I don't have TV but I have been watching this since the second day of the riots, the news has been out there.

The reason you don't hear the word Muslim is because this is a situation caused by immigration and poverty, not religion

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » November 5, 2005, 4:41 pm

Here's a Time article - Why Paris is burning.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... ml?cnn=yes

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » November 5, 2005, 5:22 pm

The youths—one Malian, the other Tunisian—had apparently thought they were being chased by police after fleeing a police identity check. Though a preliminary investigation has found that they weren't being pursued, their senseless deaths were quickly blamed on the police. After two nights of violence, hundreds marched through Clichy-sous-Bois on Saturday morning, many of them wearing white t-shirts with the slogan "Mort Pour Rien"—dead for no reason.

This is the shit that bugs me, the youths ran from a checkpoint. They thought they were being chased? Did they do something to warrant that concern? I do not know the political climate in France, maybe the police are randomly beating Muslim youths, but if not then they must have done something that made them think they were going to be chased. They climbed into a substation and died, they died for no reason because of their own stupidity, not the police. When is anyone going to take personal responsibility in this fucking world????????

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 5, 2005, 11:49 pm

This kind of thing is only going to get worse in Europe until the government changes the way they treat immigrants.

Or kills enough of them that they start to behave.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 6, 2005, 2:14 pm

You can call a trowel a trowel and a spade a spade in the EU.

Trek · Post by **Trek** » November 6, 2005, 3:41 pm

I guess we can call em French Fries again?

Was that a collective groan I heard?

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » November 7, 2005, 1:29 am

Hell, even the Iraqis get a better break than Muslims in France. At least in Iraq they have some hope their lot will get better.

landertime · Post by **landertime** » November 7, 2005, 2:18 pm

so strange to see rioting in another european country.
no doubt the wankers in tigers bay/ardoyne will get jealous and try and out do their french counterparts.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 7, 2005, 2:30 pm

Some Monday reading from a Euro commenting on various things including ethnic issues in europe:

EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE (Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel
Springer, AG)

A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family
name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because
it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and
France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they
noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then
East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman
suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct
alternative to all other possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even
though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and
debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to
come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work
for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement,
camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance,"now countenances suicide
bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly
500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the
self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to
George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American
action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt
U.N. Oil-for-Food program.

And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How
is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in
Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim
Holiday" in Germany?

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German)
Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually
believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us
from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.

One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the
laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time".

What else has to happen before the European public and its political
leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious
crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on
civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western
Civilization's utter destruction.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great
military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that
cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on
by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the
Islamists for signs of weakness.

Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for
anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the
truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half
of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And
Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral
conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in
history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the
multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being
an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great
powers, America and China.

On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those
arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's
Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes.

Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic
so devoid of a moral compass.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of
additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American
economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake -
literally everything.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they
seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare
systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our
35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation...
Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To
understand and forgive".

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands,
frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking
into a neighbor's house.

Appeasement?
Europe, thy name is Cowardice.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » November 7, 2005, 3:22 pm

Question is...

Will America have the nut sack to laugh in their face when they ask for aid?

masteen · Post by **masteen** » November 7, 2005, 4:25 pm

Morgrym wrote:Question is...

Will America have the nut sack to laugh in their face when they ask for aid?

If the situation does deterioriate into an actual insurrection, I have a feeling that it will be Americans liberating France again. I say we don't give it back this time

It might just be time for us (Westerners) to finally admit that maybe we can't all just get along, and deport these miserable fucking troublemakers.

Drolgin Steingrinder · November 7, 2005, 7:35 pm

A few things, Winnow: Your source is a little 'off'. Yes, Mathias Döpfner who is CEO of one of the larger publishing houses in Germany wrote an editorial in Die Welt, but: This article was not - as is infered by you by quoting in this context - aimed at the current riots in France. It's almost a year old, was originally published on Nov. 20th 2004.

Also, there was some hubbub about it when it made the email circuit. Apparently some kind soul decided in translating this that it wasn't exactly inflammatory enough and so decided to increase the Saddam death-toll from 300,000 to 500,000 and added the entire section that reads

Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.

Now, did - does - he have a point? Yes, he has several. But his love of Dubya blinds him at least as much as those he chooses to point his finger at.

90% of this editorial is sheer rhetoric, mixed with clever omissions and misstatements of fact. Döpfner conveniently ignores the 2 years the british dealt with Germany, the US had to come flying in to 'fix' Kosovo? There's no doubt that the international community - all of it - was far too slow in responding, far too complacent and far too scared to sticks it fingers in that particular bee's nest, but the majority of 'peacekeeping' troops in ex-Yugoslavia are european and always were.

Europe chooses to 'appease' terrorists by, on average, supporting the palestinians right to a homeland? And his spin on the whole muslim holiday thing is just that, pure spin. Why shouldn't a nation with over 3 million muslims recognize that particular religions holidays? As far as I know, Germany recognizes both protestant and catholic holidays. The general fear of muslims is rampant in Europe

Yes, the current Europe is a fragmented, schizophrenic and frankly, incredibly confused part of the world. And no, we're not a superpower, neither economically nor (and I hope we never will be) military. But it seems like Döpfner, as so many other high-ranking business chiefs, wants a European super-state, a federated Europe to rival the US - and probably modeled after it, too. Fine, let him desire that. But most of his analysis is based on this as the only possible solution for Europe, and his casual approach to facts and history leaves this piece seeming, to me, as no more than the ranting of your average right-wing anti-muslim paranoic.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 7, 2005, 7:45 pm

You left out genocide.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » November 7, 2005, 10:19 pm

masteen wrote:
Morgrym wrote:Question is...

Will America have the nut sack to laugh in their face when they ask for aid?
If the situation does deterioriate into an actual insurrection, I have a feeling that it will be Americans liberating France again. I say we don't give it back this time

It might just be time for us (Westerners) to finally admit that maybe we can't all just get along, and deport these miserable fucking troublemakers.

Screw France. Better to leave it as an enemy Arab state then a backstabbing queer-ass "friend". At least we will know where we stand when it's run by the Taliban....

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » November 8, 2005, 1:37 am

Doesnt France have nukes? Maybe we should take over the country just to make sure the rioters dont get them

. I wont reveal the post war plan, but I'll just say this, it involves cheese.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 8, 2005, 2:36 am

We're so next:

http://smh.com.au/news/national/raid-sh ... 36255.html

http://smh.com.au/news/national/cameram ... click=true

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 8, 2005, 4:45 am

Drolgin: Nice post

I just don't see a clear direction that Europe is heading in. The countries are way to diverse and proud of their histories to come together as a single "superpower" economically.

Germany is pretty good at creating a powerhouse out of ruins. They should be in charge of this fiasco...maybe let the Brits handle the ethnic issues though! I doubt the germans would come up with the kind of final solution we're looking for in that area.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 8, 2005, 9:00 pm

Superpowers.........why does the mention of that word make me think lots of people are going to die

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 8, 2005, 10:36 pm

Winnow wrote:Drolgin: Nice post

I just don't see a clear direction that Europe is heading in. The countries are way to diverse and proud of their histories to come together as a single "superpower" economically.

You're right. There will never be a European Union.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » November 8, 2005, 11:10 pm

Damn I just read that post by Winnow!

Question on the history shit... where the fuck was the US in that guys writings? were we just jerkin' off over here?!?!?...

Well ya... we were part of the Treaty that enabled Hitler to Rise
We closed ourselves to Europe and the rest of the world in the 20s / 30s
We agreed with Chamberlin!
We also signed deals with Stalin (the best mass murder of the 20th century)
We has Nazi sympatheizers in America (some of the biggest Republican business men in fact!)
We may not diserve as much blame... but it's damn close...

I couldn't even make it through... don't post trash, you are better than that. It's easy to see this guy was a one sided, blinded by his love for the worst president in US history, moron... wow... just wow...

I LOVE America! but I'm not a sheep to be herded by some idiots lies

Marb

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » November 19, 2005, 3:27 pm

Actually Europe was already unified and quite the productive superpower to rival most of the rest of the world, then us bastard americans went in and split it up again...

noone wants turmoil (toads) in their own back yard, and noone wants to stereotype anyone as "the cause" so unfortunatly there is no easy way to stop unrest and dissent without using the "Iron-boot" method employed by Stalin and Hitler. The ONLY way to make people happy is to make them succesful. Its the welfare state's way of paying the idle and not because of ethnic or religiose differences thats causing France's woes. But if you drop the welfare the current group of wefies, not knowing any other way will live in worse squaller, it would take time for them to learn to succeed when they spent there lives getting handouts.

We in the US went through similar phases, the 60s were strife with black people having no future, and feeling repressed. they responded with riots and dissent. Through Gov't intervention they were givin an equal chance to succeed and through regans later reforms much of the "welfare state" was removed forcing them to either live in squaller or succeed. Unfortunalty many choose to succeed through a new drug (crack) and only added to the squaller factor... But now after that generation has moved on, the new is much better off than the last. thoughts of riots are far from anyone's minds within the US. People are happy, not because they are comfortable, but because they CAN succeed. It's up to them, they may do as they wish, and that removes any "us vs. them" attitude wich is neccessary for banding together in the first place.

France (and the rest of Europe) needs to simply stop giving handouts and make people learn to fend for themselves. It will cause worse conditions at first but in the long run it will make life better for everyone.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » November 20, 2005, 7:40 am

Noysyrump wrote:Actually Europe was already unified and quite the productive superpower to rival most of the rest of the world, then us bastard americans went in and split it up again...

what the fucking hell

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » November 20, 2005, 8:34 am

Truly, what the hell are you smoking?

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 20, 2005, 11:15 am

kyoukan wrote:
Noysyrump wrote:Actually Europe was already unified and quite the productive superpower to rival most of the rest of the world, then us bastard americans went in and split it up again...
what the fucking hell

I was thinking that he was referring to the Nazi's....but I hope I am wrong.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » November 20, 2005, 2:09 pm

ROFL... Yes i was refering to the Nazi's, and atempting to refer to it in a way as to get everyone wriled up...

But regardless of there racial views they did succeed in unifing Europe for a short period.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 20, 2005, 4:50 pm

Noysyrump wrote:ROFL... Yes i was refering to the Nazi's, and atempting to refer to it in a way as to get everyone wriled up...

But regardless of there racial views they did succeed in unifing Europe for a short period.

Hitler failed to add Great Britain to the Third Reich. If Hitler didn't obsess over invading Russia during the winter and focused on taking England, things might look a lot different in the world today. Thankfully Hitler self destructed with his two front attack so now the world can complain about the United States fighting for oil in the Middle East instead of the Krauts.

Wonko Wenusberg · Post by **Wonko Wenusberg** » November 23, 2005, 3:11 pm

How did Hitler and his NSDAP unify Europe?
He and his closest people was for ein Reich, ein Volk, and ein Führer. He wanted to create lebensraum for the Germans. He didn't want to unify.
If you think unified equals conquered landmass, then he was successfull with his Blitzkreig, but getting people of different nationalities together?
Ignorant and uneducated...

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » November 23, 2005, 3:30 pm

I don't know, a lot of countries fell into line pretty fast. And don't go off about the fabricated romanticist version of history involving the french resistance.

Wonko Wenusberg · Post by **Wonko Wenusberg** » November 23, 2005, 4:19 pm

The first countries they stormed was defenceless. BeNeLux couldn't do nothing, and Poland was weak, but I can't imagine that they could have created a stable nation over the countries they conquered with their ideology.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » November 25, 2005, 3:03 pm

To wich ideology do you refer? Fascism? Well the soviet system that most had to endure after the war wasnt much different... and they endured none the less. Czecho-Slovakia was a major industrial supplier to the Riech. France and the Low Countries provided large quantities of manpower for the war effort, and it wasn't forced slave labor. Norwegian resources fed the factories, and Romanian oil fueled them. Seems quite unified to me.

It was the "Untermenen" view of undesirables and its short life span that made it not work...

Wonko Wenusberg · Post by **Wonko Wenusberg** » November 25, 2005, 3:30 pm

Soviet uinion satelite states endured because they was held on a short leash. In my eyes Stalin was a more evil because he could create a more stable nation than Hitler.( Both was terrible persons), it's frightening with the lack of information about deliberate starvation in Croatia, peasant riots and the gulags for example.
I agree that the "untermen" view was a big part for the third Reich to not hold together, but saying that people worked in the industry etc to support Hitler I can't agree with that. It was their income probably before they got conquered. They had families. They couldn't leave it. Although I think many didn't care who ruled over them. As long they could survive they was satisfied, and that's probably one of the bigger causes that such horrid nations can bloom.
But a unified Europe that suported Third Reich with free will? Noo.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » November 25, 2005, 3:52 pm

But a unified Europe that suported Third Reich with free will? Noo.

Your right, it wasnt under free will. That kind of comes with the territory when your conquered. But its faster and more efficiant than trying to have all the major powers come to some sort of agreement and work out a perfect plan to happily unify under free will, as that will never really happen.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 26, 2005, 12:21 am

Noysyrump wrote:
But a unified Europe that suported Third Reich with free will? Noo.
Your right, it wasnt under free will. That kind of comes with the territory when your conquered. But its faster and more efficiant than trying to have all the major powers come to some sort of agreement and work out a perfect plan to happily unify under free will, as that will never really happen.

Yeah, because the results were SO much faster and...efficient.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » November 26, 2005, 1:14 pm

Boogahz wrote:
Noysyrump wrote:
But a unified Europe that suported Third Reich with free will? Noo.
Your right, it wasnt under free will. That kind of comes with the territory when your conquered. But its faster and more efficiant than trying to have all the major powers come to some sort of agreement and work out a perfect plan to happily unify under free will, as that will never really happen.
Yeah, because the results were SO much faster and...efficient.

For Germany? your right it didnt work, what about Rome? worked great for hundreds of years for them.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » November 26, 2005, 3:37 pm

Then that "might" have been a better example for you to use