Need some advice

Lor · Post by **Lor** » September 27, 2005, 4:56 pm

Heya all, here's my problem....

Two houses over from us there is a Problem family, the kid who is like 16 or 17 does not go to school and has no job, he's been caught in other peoples Sheds and garages and one time was in their neighbors home but didn't know someone was there, he wasn't charged with that one because the girl that was home didn't see his face but decribed his clothes down to a Tee which the mother saw him wearing when she got home, Recently (about 1.5 to 2 months ago) we have had the outside screen to my Daughters window opened with a small plastic table that was in our yard under it (police report was filed)

About 3 weeks ago Our Recycle garbage can turned up missing, Lo and Behold there it is in front of their house filled with cans Unfortunatly we didn't mark that one with our address so I have to chalk that one up as a loss since we can't prove it's ours.

Now this morning I get a call from my wife saying our next door neighbor saw the kid run through our yard between our houses carying a Blue recycle can (neither one of ours) at ten after seven.

I'm stumpped at what to do.... I was thinking about setting up one of those camcorders facing my back yard so i can catch the little bastard in the act of doing something but don't really know what to look for, If anyone has any advice I'd really appreciate it.

Thanks,
Bob

Tegellan · Post by **Tegellan** » September 27, 2005, 5:19 pm

Lie in wait with a rifle, you have the right to shoot him if he is treaspassing on your property, no?

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Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » September 27, 2005, 5:39 pm

Personally Lor, I'd buy a large dog and have it on a LONG chain.
Otherwise unless you post some sort of watch system for him all you're going to do is give yourself an ulcer.
You could hire a PI but for an annoying kid, thats just a waste of money.
Best thing to do is to get some sort of paintball gun and just open fire on him if you see him on your yard. That way he doesnt die but he learns his lesson.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 27, 2005, 5:47 pm

I suggest putting up monomolecular filament tripwires. Little fucker won't be stealing shit with one foot missing.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 27, 2005, 5:48 pm

Wow both Tegellan and Sylvos advice will 100% wind you up in jail and bankrupt on top of that.

Laws vary from state to state so first off where (state) do you live?

Skogen · Post by **Skogen** » September 27, 2005, 5:54 pm

Sendarie wrote:Wow both Tegellan and Sylvos advice will 100% wind you up in jail and bankrupt on top of that.

Laws vary from state to state so first off where (state) do you live?

Yes, it HIGHLY varies by state. TRy anything like that in California, your in trouble. Now if you're in Tennesse...well, you just have to get a little creative.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 27, 2005, 5:55 pm

Honestly, I suggest calling DCF on them. You can file a perfectly honest report saying how the kid isn't going to school, and how the parents aren't providing a suitable home environement, ect., and trust me, once those fucks in DCF get involved, they're like herpes.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 27, 2005, 6:21 pm

masteen wrote:Honestly, I suggest calling DCF on them. You can file a perfectly honest report saying how the kid isn't going to school, and how the parents aren't providing a suitable home environement, ect., and trust me, once those fucks in DCF get involved, they're like herpes.

Yeah this is a good suggestion. Those guys dont let up once they are on you.

Maybe your lucky and in somewhere like Texas where you have the right to protect your property. Then you can light his ass up.
Now here in Virginia....well you can definately not like him being there...thats about it.

Janx · Post by **Janx** » September 27, 2005, 6:30 pm

Frickin sharks with laser beams attached to their heads.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » September 27, 2005, 6:38 pm

Sendarie wrote:Wow both Tegellan and Sylvos advice will 100% wind you up in jail and bankrupt on top of that.

Laws vary from state to state so first off where (state) do you live?

No? If he puts up a No Trespassing sign on his property. He has every right to paintball someone on his yard. It is a nonlethal means of determent. 100% legal in all 50 states.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » September 27, 2005, 7:07 pm

Tegellan wrote:Lie in wait with a rifle, you have the right to shoot him if he is treaspassing on your property, no?

Generally, no.

Deadly force generally is not an acceptable form of property protection, unless there is a reasonable belief that a FELONY will be committed inside the house or a threat to an occupant inside the house.

Force on the other hand, could be considered reasonable - so the Sylvos theory of paintball shooting would probably be just fine.

I'd call the cops constantly on him - any time he is doing anything even remotely suspicious.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » September 27, 2005, 7:33 pm

2-iron to the kneecaps.

Nilaman · Post by **Nilaman** » September 27, 2005, 7:36 pm

I'd kick his ass.

Go over to his house and beat the living shit out of him.

Clearly his parents have not done that enough. Beat him until he bleeds from his ears. Then kick him in the nuts.

Hard.

Then every time something turns up missing, kick his ass. If he is in your yard? Kick his ass again. When your house gets egged? Kick his ass a bit more.

If anyone is missing anything from your street...

If you lost your own car keys...

If the dog ate your kids homework...

The little shit sounds like he needs some kind of serious beating.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 27, 2005, 7:55 pm

I'd walk up to him and spit on him, hoping that he'd take a swing at me... then I'd beat his ass right there on the spot!!

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 27, 2005, 8:19 pm

Sylvos wrote:
Sendarie wrote:Wow both Tegellan and Sylvos advice will 100% wind you up in jail and bankrupt on top of that.

Laws vary from state to state so first off where (state) do you live?
No? If he puts up a No Trespassing sign on his property. He has every right to paintball someone on his yard. It is a nonlethal means of determent. 100% legal in all 50 states.

Common misconception. Lets say a kid loses their ball/frisbee on your lawn/yard/property and come to retrieve it. Is this trespassing?
Nope.

You can put those signs up but that does not give you the legal right to do ANYTHING.

You can hang up 12 million of those old redneck signs I always saw growing up (I'm a redneck) "Trespassers Will Be SHOT"....still you cant do jack shit to them besides call the cops.
And when the cops get there if this kid has any brains all just say he lost his ball in your yard...

edit: AGAIN if you follow Sylvos's advice I promise you, you WILL go to jail especially since this is a juvenile. Even if no charges stick the parents will have a field day with a lawsuit over how you damaged their poor misguided junior.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 27, 2005, 8:27 pm

By the way Sylvos some other interesting tidbits of self/property protection.

You know if someone kicks your door down (in most states) and comes in wielding a knife and you just happen to have a gun in your hand can you shoot them? Yes...and then you will go to jail for the rest of your life.

Most states (YAY liberals!!) require a "duty to retreat" meaning you if at all possible have to leave your home and if not retreat to a point that you can no longer retreat and are cornered. Even then the person has to follow you and present a true threat to your life. Possessing the knife doesnt count. They have to be close enough or coming towards you.

edit: For state to state info check here: http://www.packing.org/
Scrolling down gives each states use of force rules and items concerning "duty to retreat".

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » September 27, 2005, 8:34 pm

Sendarie wrote:By the way Sylvos some other interesting tidbits of self/property protection.

You know if someone kicks your door down (in most states) and comes in wielding a knife and you just happen to have a gun in your hand can you shoot them? Yes...and then you will go to jail for the rest of your life.

bullshit. its considered self defense, just ask don king.

Lor · Post by **Lor** » September 27, 2005, 8:39 pm

New Jersey here, I think i'm gonna go with the hidden Camcorder thing then I can have something concrete to give to the police (after I make copies and send them to all the neighbors). As appealing as a more direct solution seems I can't afford any kind of Lawsuite or Jail time (I'm too purty to go to the slammer

)

The Frustrating thing is If I do happen to catch him trying anything he'll get a slap on the wrist because he's still a minor.

Thanks for the replys everyone.

Akanae · Post by **Akanae** » September 27, 2005, 8:41 pm

I know in some states the laws are all jacked up, but if I caught some 16-17 year old kid breaking into my daughters bedroom. I would shoot, and aim for the crotch.

We have a ~20 year old who lives across the street from us with his parents, and he is always in and out of jail/house arrest. Has 'friends' over at 2:00 am on weeknights revving their souped up engines for hours, and we are always finding ciggarette butts in our lawn. I know he smokes pot/heroin etc., and has been up on drunk driving charges.

But after hearing your story I am grateful, at least he doesn't enter our yard/house!

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 27, 2005, 8:43 pm

Zamtuk wrote:
Sendarie wrote:By the way Sylvos some other interesting tidbits of self/property protection.

You know if someone kicks your door down (in most states) and comes in wielding a knife and you just happen to have a gun in your hand can you shoot them? Yes...and then you will go to jail for the rest of your life.
bullshit. its considered self defense, just ask don king.

Well not to completely derail this..just wanted to make sure noone guided poor Lor here into a felony. This scenario is hit or miss...yes if you are Don King...and have Don King's money and lawyers I'm quite sure you can get away with it.
If your an average Joe...pick your pimp cuz your somebodies bitch for a few years.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 27, 2005, 8:46 pm

My advice?

Motion activated cameras and lights.

AND put up very clear signs stating they are there. Sounds like the most important thing first off is STOPPING the activity. Wory about arresting and whatever secondary..most important is stopping this shit he's doing.

The camera's really arent very expensive and if you want just put real camera's on windows/doors and have dummy/fake (super cheap) cameras other places.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » September 27, 2005, 8:53 pm

In Lor's case, some motion activated lights and\or cameras probably are the best idea at present.

Sendarie wrote:Most states (YAY liberals!!) require a "duty to retreat" meaning you if at all possible have to leave your home and if not retreat to a point that you can no longer retreat and are cornered.

Not in my state

Varies widely by state, other than in New England and CA you're on fairly firm ground claiming self defense indoors. A civil suit is a concern though.

Calling child protective services was a good idea. What a bunch of power mad assholes they (generally) are, be good to see them do something useful.

In FL, if they forcibly entered you're home that's reason enough.

(1) A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

(a) The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against that person's will from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

I love the south:

(1) A person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force, unless the person against whom force was used is a law enforcement officer

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 27, 2005, 8:57 pm

Can you get motion activated lights that also continue tracking the moving target with a spotlight? This solution may get spendy but if you attach a laser pointer to the spotlight that activates at the same time, a little red dot on the target might make their nervis huge enough to give them second thoughts.

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 27, 2005, 9:50 pm

Yeah Aabidano in most cases you are going to be hit with a civil suit. Yes little Johny was on crack...yes he was raping your daughter and had killed your wife when you caught him...but JUST THEN he was about to turn to God (when he got finished with your 8yr old) and turn himself into an upstanding citizen.

Count on it. If you have a CCL and no insurance to cover justified use of deadly force, your asking for trouble. Even if the shoot was justified 100% by the court, you WILL still be hit with a civil suit.

Hopefully not sounding too pretentious here but I really did my homework and take carrying a loaded and concealed weapon with me everywhere I go very seriously.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » September 27, 2005, 10:55 pm

you have heard of those motion sensor lawn sprinklers that are used for deer....

have a tap on your water heater?

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 28, 2005, 1:00 am

manslaughter vs. self defense largely depends on what kind of lawyer you can afford.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 28, 2005, 1:04 am

Two Words: Piss Balloons

Siji · Post by **Siji** » September 28, 2005, 11:22 am

Don't involve a dog. If the kid is fucked up, it'll just end up with a poisoned animal that didn't deserve to die.

Child services is a great idea, the motion sensor lighting is a good idea, speaking with all of your neighbors (can't imagine you're the only one affected) and having them all continuously call the police and file reports. Also, having the entire neighborhood approaching the parents and kid at one time might be helpful.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » September 28, 2005, 12:23 pm

Sendarie wrote:AGAIN if you follow Sylvos's advice I promise you, you WILL go to jail especially since this is a juvenile. Even if no charges stick the parents will have a field day with a lawsuit over how you damaged their poor misguided junior.

Um, Sylvos was talking about shooting him with a paintball, not a bullet. You're confusing the issue.

ORS 161.229 Use of physical force in defense of property. A person is justified in using physical force, other than deadly physical force, upon another person when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes it to be necessary to prevent or terminate the commission or attempted commission by the other person of theft or criminal mischief of property.

If you paintballed someone stealing something from your yard and/or peeping into your daughter's window, it is seriously doubtful you'll go to jail. (In Oregon at least).

I wouldn't believe someone's advice based on what they read from a gun website, unless he/she was a cop or a lawyer - with experience in criminal prosecutions.

I personally wouldn't go the route of violence, but I'm not from the South

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » September 28, 2005, 12:25 pm

For 25 grand ill take care of it for you....

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » September 28, 2005, 12:56 pm

we gotta have atleast 1 lawyer or a cop on here .... wasn't someone dating a woman cop or fbi agent or something ?

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » September 28, 2005, 1:03 pm

Sendarie wrote:By the way Sylvos some other interesting tidbits of self/property protection.

You know if someone kicks your door down (in most states) and comes in wielding a knife and you just happen to have a gun in your hand can you shoot them? Yes...and then you will go to jail for the rest of your life.

Most states (YAY liberals!!) require a "duty to retreat" meaning you if at all possible have to leave your home and if not retreat to a point that you can no longer retreat and are cornered. Even then the person has to follow you and present a true threat to your life. Possessing the knife doesnt count. They have to be close enough or coming towards you.

edit: For state to state info check here: http://www.packing.org/
Scrolling down gives each states use of force rules and items concerning "duty to retreat".

That is 100% horseshit.
The rules of self-defense are clearly stated in not only state law but federal law.
Breaking and entering while armed is grounds for use of lethal force in any state.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » September 28, 2005, 1:13 pm

Breaking and entering while armed is grounds for use of lethal force in any state.

Not in mine.....

Even in self defense, legally you are only alowed to knock somone down so that you may run away.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » September 28, 2005, 1:26 pm

There are several ways of taking care of the problem. Some involve confrontation, while others can be done and no one will be none the wiser. I tend to avoid confrontation cause you never know if someone will extract retribution on you or your property.

Example:

My friend has a neighbor down the street who has gang of pit bull dogs that roam the area at will. My friend didn't ask nicely, he didn't complain, he didn't even call the cops. Instead, he predug some holes in his backyard and killed/buried them as they entered his property. After 3 dogs mysteriously came up missing in a matter of weeks, guess what the results were? That dude keeps his pit bulls on a hella short leash.

I'm not saying you should kill the kid, but working in the shadows doing very bad things to him is always a good option in my book. An example might be a letter that says "I'm watching you. One wrong move and I will fucking kill you. I won't call the cops and no on will ever know it was me that did it". or something like that. Never underestimate the effect of fear.

Confrontation-wise, you're limited because he's a minor. I'd talk with neighbors and do the cop calling routine. Floodlights and such are another good option.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » September 28, 2005, 1:31 pm

Personally you should just lie in wait til he runs past, drop a net on him and haul him into your basement.
Shave his head bald and cover him in vaseline then put him in a room full of doors with greased knobs.
Then when he finally gets out, you take a quick pic and post it all over his high school so that everyone sees him leaving a room covered in vasoline naked wearing a pair of bunny ears.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » September 28, 2005, 1:45 pm

i like the net idea maybe launch some bottle rockets at him by ... accident =-) or throw some M-80's at him

Fyndina · Post by **Fyndina** » September 28, 2005, 2:21 pm

packing.org is prolly the best site out there when it comes to what is allowed in each state for the legal CCL holder.

Besides that. Laws mean shit.

If I decide to walk into my neighboors house and open fire and kill him. Does that means I go to jail for manslaighter? Nope. All laws mean is that is what I can be charged with. After that is up to whatever lawyer I can afford to get.

And, if someone goes to trial for shooting someone raping their daughter. I don't think there are many juries that would find you guilty. Or at least not all of the jurors. All you need is enough doubt for one person to say not guilty.

Civil suits are allways a concern. That reminds me, I need to get insurance to cover lawyer for it. Dang it.

Wonko Wenusberg · Post by **Wonko Wenusberg** » September 28, 2005, 2:42 pm

Warning signs explaining some kind of direct alarm, surveliance works pretty well, and if you have time and love you can buy a doberman.
They are excellent at stopping burglars, at least in Sweden

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 28, 2005, 2:47 pm

Sylvos wrote:
Sendarie wrote:By the way Sylvos some other interesting tidbits of self/property protection.

You know if someone kicks your door down (in most states) and comes in wielding a knife and you just happen to have a gun in your hand can you shoot them? Yes...and then you will go to jail for the rest of your life.

Most states (YAY liberals!!) require a "duty to retreat" meaning you if at all possible have to leave your home and if not retreat to a point that you can no longer retreat and are cornered. Even then the person has to follow you and present a true threat to your life. Possessing the knife doesnt count. They have to be close enough or coming towards you.

edit: For state to state info check here: http://www.packing.org/
Scrolling down gives each states use of force rules and items concerning "duty to retreat".
That is 100% horseshit.
The rules of self-defense are clearly stated in not only state law but federal law.
Breaking and entering while armed is grounds for use of lethal force in any state.

Sir you are 100% wong. I'll get the case numbers and file references when I get to work. Man I'm not pulling this shit out of my ass/thin air. Classes, case studies and files. Do some research.

Sirensa...try it. You will have to prove that they were doing something wrong. In most states just being on your property does not give you the right to use any force.

edit: Even my own (temporarily) state of Virginia just changed on Aug 2 THIS YEAR the duty to retreat within your own home. Up until Aug 2 you had to leave the house if the option was available or retreat to say your bedroom and lock the door. Then call 911 and yell at him for a while hoping he'll go away. When he kicks the door in though.....open fire.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » September 28, 2005, 4:32 pm

Sendarie wrote:Sirensa...try it. You will have to prove that they were doing something wrong. In most states just being on your property does not give you the right to use any force.

I said qualified my answer to if he was stealing and/or peering into a young child's window (inappropriately). Also, I was referencing Oregon, as I stated. And refering to FORCE, not deadly force (different rules apply), since he was talking about a paintball gun, not a real gun.

Sirensa wrote:If you paintballed someone stealing something from your yard and/or peeping into your daughter's window, it is seriously doubtful you'll go to jail. (In Oregon at least).

Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing.

I actually do know what I'm talking about. I've extensively studied the law (in law school...)

P.S. - I already PM'd Sylvos to tell him he is off his rocker

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » September 28, 2005, 4:51 pm

Noysyrump wrote:
Breaking and entering while armed is grounds for use of lethal force in any state.

Not in mine.....

Even in self defense, legally you are only alowed to knock somone down so that you may run away.

I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6...or worse...have my wife or daughter carried by 6.

Someone breaks into my house...I am not taking any chances with the lives of my family. Fuck them for breaking in. I don't care if you are just there to steal shit and are not armed. You break in...you put my family at risk...fuck you...you die. I would rather be in jail than be dead or have my family dead.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 28, 2005, 5:57 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote: Confrontation-wise, you're limited because he's a minor. I'd talk with neighbors and do the cop calling routine. Floodlights and such are another good option.

Why not hire another minor to beat him up? Go find the meanest looking 17 year old you can, train them in the arts of origami and then let him loose on your problem. If you don't pay in cash, make sure the check you make out to them is for mowing your lawn or something though!

Sendarie · Post by **Sendarie** » September 28, 2005, 6:43 pm

Sirensa wrote: I actually do know what I'm talking about. I've extensively studied the law (in law school...)

P.S. - I already PM'd Sylvos to tell him he is off his rocker

Civil suit stuff would still apply. I wasnt trying to be a knowledge god on this stuff, but if you saw someone stealing from or on your property and paintballed them especially since its a minor you would still be looking at losing a lot more money in lawyers and court fees than what the kid was probably trying to steal.

If you see them confronting them is fine but I wouldnt use any force unless it was warranted (I was threatened) and even then only apply the minimum level of force to deescalate the situation.
First thing..call the cops.

Basically....I need to move to Oregon.

And thanks for the comprehension lesson...that is always an ongoing problem of mine.

Guidlines: http://www.cleet.state.ok.us/PDF/Use%20 ... ersion.pdf

I sure do miss my SWA use of force rules....shoot on site...no warning shots authorized. Burst of 3...mmm M-16 3:1 ball/tracer

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » September 28, 2005, 10:08 pm

I haven't read most of the posts, but has anyone mentioned trying to talk to the parents of the kid? I am guessing that any action taken would probably be considered insufficient if you haven't already tried to talk to them. I am looking at it almost as a noise complaint where you "should" attempt to address it yourself before involving law enforcement. The other problem is that it really doesn't sound like you have any proof that the kid is the one that did anything to the screen or the table outside it. I would place the cameras to see what is happening. Is it possible that your daughter was sneaking out (didn't catch her age)?

laneela · Post by **laneela** » September 29, 2005, 9:54 am

If the kid is 16 or 17, calling DCS because he's not in school isn't going to solve a thing. At 16, children are not *required* to go to school anymore so a parent can't be held responsible when they don't. If you can prove other kinds of neglect, DCS would definately be the way to go. Otherwise, motion-activated lights and security cameras might do the trick. Also - try talking to the parents and let them know what your intentions are. If they know that you're not going to sit back and allow their brat to continue being a disrespectful, quite possibly criminal little shit, they might actually start giving some kind of a fuck.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » September 30, 2005, 6:14 pm

what you need is a few of these

i doubt he will be doing much if you have a few of these in your yard =-)

masteen · Post by **masteen** » September 30, 2005, 6:38 pm

Not being able to defend your property sucks, and is one of the things that is so very wrong with much of this country.

I'm just glad I live in Florida. Duty to retreat? Fuck that shit.

MooZilla · Post by **MooZilla** » October 3, 2005, 12:33 pm

it seems like you're getting pretty worked up over a garbage can. so the kid is weird and steals recyclables.

from what you said he hasnt done anything harmful towards you or your family. just talk to his parents.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » October 3, 2005, 12:46 pm

MooZilla wrote:it seems like you're getting pretty worked up over a garbage can. so the kid is weird and steals recyclables.

from what you said he hasnt done anything harmful towards you or your family. just talk to his parents.

he hasn't done anything harmful yet ....... but everyones gotta start somewhere!

VeeshanVault

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