On the use of fear in politics (unfinished)

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » September 26, 2005, 6:33 am

part 1.

The difference between a politician and a philosopher is that the former concerns himself with what is good for man while the latter concerns himself with what is good for mankind. It would be wise to point out that while there exists in this country a plethora of politicians, there is a serious lack of philosophers, or philosophical leaders. This leads one to conclude that while the state of affairs in this country is generally pleasant, the direction is obscenely not so, while the standard of living for man has risen, the standard of life for mankind equally lowered. We take our comfort for granted. The American dream is not how to make money, it's how to make more money, the struggle is not to be concerned with survival but rather success and luxury. Leisure has taken priority over sympathy and greed over compassion. To a philosopher, this in itself is not a vice. It becomes a vice when it is taken to its extreme, where money becomes more valuable than life.

Within American society people are deemed criminals who act with this mentality, yet the leaders commit these same crimes as an entity and veil them with distractions and dishonesty. They are held accountable only by their enemies or their victims. Then, when the society is stabbed in the back by the victims of their greed, it is unable to look beyond the pain of its wound, at the true source of the problem, the mirror. It is immediately saturated with propaganda, finds an escape goat and unleashes its rage. America destroyed a destitute defenseless country not for a noble reason, not to promote freedom or establish democracy, but rather to demonstrate its power and willingness to use it on her enemies, and even on her pseudo-oppugnants. The hope is that fear will keep the true enemy, the terrorist, at bay. What happens instead however, is that the true enemy is bolstered and emboldened. He says to his society "look at this monster, look at its true nature, it is as I've always told you." In addition, a new more pressing problem is created on how to revive the desecrated country, in this case Iraq.

At the core of the ideology the current administration adopts lies a fallacy, that fear ensures safety. In fact, they employ fear not only to combat their enemies but to gain support from their constituency. Such flagrant frivolous use of fear, while arguably successful for immediate goals, is truly unhealthy for the philosophical and moral development of this nation. Aggressive posturing only postpones and maybe intensifies the inevitable conflicts in the future. By responding to terrorism with war, we dignify its existence, and moreover fuel it. The mirror is not confronted and the problem is not solved.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » September 26, 2005, 6:56 am

You're using some kind of specialised rant generator for that, arent you?

*Hugs*
Varia

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 26, 2005, 11:09 am

<flashback to Fear runs back in 2000>

Nice post Xyun!

Marb

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » September 26, 2005, 11:56 am

I'm just curious why you think this only applies to the current administration?

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » September 26, 2005, 12:41 pm

Vietnam. Make the commies FEAR invading other countries. Worked great then didnt it?

As for the war on Iraq, I dont believe most people take the grand strategy into account. Saddam wasnt going to live forever. Iran knew this, and was already working to win over the "hearts and minds" of the Iraquis. So what enveriably could have followed was a reunification of Persia. That would have put neigboring countries, such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and other countries "friendly" to us in jeapordy. Had the fundamentalists gained that much power they would have tried to expand there borders and safety for the stabilty of not only the region, but the rest of the world would have been upset.

60 years of cold war with the Russians would have been tame to what we would have had with a culture so unlike our own.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 26, 2005, 1:13 pm

Noysyrump wrote:Vietnam. Make the commies FEAR invading other countries. Worked great then didnt it?

As for the war on Iraq, I dont believe most people take the grand strategy into account. Saddam wasnt going to live forever. Iran knew this, and was already working to win over the "hearts and minds" of the Iraquis. So what enveriably could have followed was a reunification of Persia. That would have put neigboring countries, such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and other countries "friendly" to us in jeapordy. Had the fundamentalists gained that much power they would have tried to expand there borders and safety for the stabilty of not only the region, but the rest of the world would have been upset.

60 years of cold war with the Russians would have been tame to what we would have had with a culture so unlike our own.

If there was anything resembling reality in that, the US should have made keeping Saddam in power their prime concern. A secular government in an arab/muslim nations is unheard of.

Instead of encouraging a secular government (dictatorship) the US chose to trigger what will inevitably be a (religious) civil war in Iraq.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 26, 2005, 2:00 pm

Xyun wrote:America destroyed a destitute defenseless country not for a noble reason, not to promote freedom or establish democracy, but rather to demonstrate its power and willingness to use it on her enemies, and even on her pseudo-oppugnants.

The thinking here could be that you can only speak softly (or strongly) and carry a big stick for so long without using it or the big stick loses its influence.

What you don't want is a blind man swinging the stick!

I think Al Bundy was onto something here:

Middle-aged woman comes into the shoe store, she's wearing a "Blossom" hat. You
know, the I'm-just-a-cute-young-girl-of-forty-five look. And she's looking for something
cool she can wear to a Crosby, Stills & Nash reunion concert. So I suggest a nice,
recyclable, paper bag to put over her face. You know, so she could save the planet two
ways. So she maces me. But as I lash out blindly, I think I clipped her a good one in
the teeth.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » September 26, 2005, 2:03 pm

Noysyrump wrote:Vietnam. Make the commies FEAR invading other countries. Worked great then didnt it?

Ermmmm cart pulling the horse here. Make the American people fear commies invading vietnam because it will make the world unsafe for democracy. Which of course it didn't.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 26, 2005, 2:40 pm

America destroyed a destitute defenseless country not for a noble reason, not to promote freedom or establish democracy, but rather to demonstrate its power and willingness to use it on her enemies, and even on her pseudo-oppugnants.

Much like a high school bully would be feared if he went and beat up some kindergarten children.

The only 'power' that was demonstrated was the power of greed.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 26, 2005, 3:55 pm

Iran will eventually have democracy, we need to remind those currently in power there that these things usually aren't plesant. We could offer to "help" them ease this transition so they aren't tragged through the streets in 10 years. By forming an alliance we will also let them have nuclear power. On their side they must help against Al-Queda (sp?) which shouldn't be a big deal since the leader in Iraq just declared war against 99% of their population. While easing them into democracy, US businesses could start investing in Iran and in 20 years Persia might be rebuilt... but they would be rebuilt as country frindly to the West.

IMHO, truthfully we owe Iran. Yes, the hostages were a terrible nightmare that lasted over a year. However for many in Iran, they lived through 30 years of nightmare from a puppet leader supported by us.

So we both screwed up... lets lay it all on the table and move forward.

Marb

nobody · Post by **nobody** » September 26, 2005, 4:06 pm

i think every time we put our nose where it doesn't belong we end up screwing it up. i don't care if the whole population wants democracy it's not our business to liberate the whole world. it ends up doing more harm than good. ie iraq

Dalmoth_IO · Post by **Dalmoth_IO** » September 26, 2005, 7:04 pm

nobody wrote:i think every time we put our nose where it doesn't belong we end up screwing it up. i don't care if the whole population wants democracy it's not our business to liberate the whole world. it ends up doing more harm than good. ie iraq

So what your really saying is that you think we (the U.S.) should withdraw from the world and become isolationists? Hello, 19th century American politics. It wasn't until we got past our isolationish policies and started participating in the world that we became a world power. We may not be always right in what we do, but do you really think the world would be a better place if we and/or other countries all held this belief?

This is basically upholding that Hitler could slaughter millions of Jews and other ethnic minorietes because if someone else stuck their nose in, it would be worse? Substitube the U.S. Government and the American Indians if you want, it doesn't change the facts that both were morally repugnant. Things like this occur because we justify to ourselves that is not our business cause its not happening where we live. Then one day, it is in our backyard.

Should the people in New Orleans be left to fend for themselves, because we will screw it up worse? Hell no, we'll do what needs to be done. Something, ANYTHING sometimes need to done even if it doesn't work just to bring attention to the problem. So what if it doesn't come out the way some would like when they like or not at all. There is no pleasing everyone all the time. Hell I think there is no pleasing anyone all the time.

As to Iraq:

The jury is still out on Iraq and frankly WILL be out for a decade or more, if you don't understand this, please do some reading into the rebuilding of Japan. It took Japan nearly 30 years to rebuild after World War II into a dominat economimc power, but they did it. Country "building" takes decades, hell it took us nearly 10 years to write a constitution we could agree on, why do think anyone else would be different?

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » September 26, 2005, 7:21 pm

miir wrote:
Noysyrump wrote:Vietnam. Make the commies FEAR invading other countries. Worked great then didnt it?

As for the war on Iraq, I dont believe most people take the grand strategy into account. Saddam wasnt going to live forever. Iran knew this, and was already working to win over the "hearts and minds" of the Iraquis. So what enveriably could have followed was a reunification of Persia. That would have put neigboring countries, such as Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and other countries "friendly" to us in jeapordy. Had the fundamentalists gained that much power they would have tried to expand there borders and safety for the stabilty of not only the region, but the rest of the world would have been upset.

60 years of cold war with the Russians would have been tame to what we would have had with a culture so unlike our own.
If there was anything resembling reality in that, the US should have made keeping Saddam in power their prime concern. A secular government in an arab/muslim nations is unheard of.

Instead of encouraging a secular government (dictatorship) the US chose to trigger what will inevitably be a (religious) civil war in Iraq.

And for what, 30 years, keeping saddam in power was top priority. Feeding him arms during the war vs Iran. Not removing him from power in '91. perhaps CIA found a reason to move now (planned assasinations?). my point is, we dont know everything that going on. There going to keep us out of the loop for the safety of national defense.

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » September 26, 2005, 8:53 pm

Xyun wrote:The difference between a politician and a philosopher is that the former concerns himself with what is good for man while the latter concerns himself with what is good for mankind.

while the standard of living for man has risen, the standard of life for mankind equally lowered.

Since "man" and "mankind" mean the same thing, these statements make no sense at all.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » September 26, 2005, 9:26 pm

I don't think we should isolate ourselves but unless our country is in imminent danger we don't need to be obligating our time, money, and troops. now that we're in iraq we need to finish the job. it really is possible to be involved around the world and not go out of our way to 'liberate' the whole world. what makes the iraqi people special and not the north korean or the iranian or cold war russia? we became a world power because capitalism works and our ability to out produce everyone, not because we freed europe.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » September 26, 2005, 9:45 pm

While there are certainly some philosophers who have concerned themselves with what is good for man (Calvin and other religious types, maybe the 'ideal republic' types like Alfarabi and Plato) there are also plenty who have not concerned themselves with value-laden terms like 'good' at all. I've always conceived of philosophy as the 'science of description,' and many philosophers are concerned simply with describing what the world is honestly like, in their view (Machiavelli, Hobbes, Sartre, Nozick). It is true that these concepts often overlap, as a well-conceived and consistent view of what the world is like often leads to consequences that describe how humans ought to behave in order to maximize some benefit given that view of the world. The view of the world is antecedent, however, and the behavioral, ethical consequences are consequent.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » September 26, 2005, 9:47 pm

Noysy,

I have to tell you man, you are are of your bloody gourd on the Iran Iaq issue unless you are trying to look more than a century ahead. In case you missed it MILLIONS of people died when Iraq and Iran fought.

They hate each other like Neo Nazis hate smart people.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 27, 2005, 6:54 am

The downward spiral

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » September 27, 2005, 2:36 pm

Dalmoth_IO wrote:As to Iraq:

The jury is still out on Iraq and frankly WILL be out for a decade or more, if you don't understand this, please do some reading into the rebuilding of Japan. It took Japan nearly 30 years to rebuild after World War II into a dominat economimc power, but they did it. Country "building" takes decades, hell it took us nearly 10 years to write a constitution we could agree on, why do think anyone else would be different?

No. The Jury of Republican Party Supporting Americans may be out on Iraq, but the rest of the world pretty much thinks it was, at best, an ill-advised piece of imperialistic adventurism thats created more problems than it has solved. At worst it was trumped up, illegal invasion of sovereign nation by another nation seeking access to mineral resources they were previously denied access to. I feel sorry for the poor kids who joined your armed forces as a way to pay for an education and better themselves, who are now being killed and maimed there.

It make take 10, 20 or even 50 years to calm things down in Iraq, and the country may thrive after, but that still doesn't mean the invasion was right.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » September 27, 2005, 2:39 pm

Great post Wulfran.

It's a common ploy in all governments to use fear so that the masses are kept relatively poor in comparison to the rich elite.

The topics change, but the stance and reaction to them by the government remains the same, be it communism, drugs, terrorism or even porn, to keep the people on edge, and therefore directing their anger at anything but where the problem really lies.

This has been going on since civilization began.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » September 27, 2005, 4:03 pm

I'm still paying 2.79 a gallon at the pump. So our government failed in its war for oil then too I guess.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » September 27, 2005, 4:04 pm

the US influences nearly every facet of present-day society. press play on your MP3 player right now if you don't believe me. if you press stop, that's likely what you could be listening to in 30 years if the US were to stop sticking their nose into everything.

if you want to continue to enjoy the freedoms you have right now; the music you listen to, the sports you play, the cars you drive, the clothes you wear, the video games, porn... everything you do...i can't prove it since it never happened but i'm willing to bet you wouldn't be enjoying those same luxuries had the US not stepped up in past conflicts around the world.

a lot of people all over the world hate the US right now but take away all the american influences they enjoy on a daily basis and maybe they'll start to understand what the US (not GW and his administration) truely stands for.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » September 27, 2005, 4:07 pm

BUSH IS JESUS IF IT WASN'T FOR HIM MY BABY WOULD BE GREEN AND HAVE 4 EYES! !!1 OMFG>

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 27, 2005, 4:22 pm

Spang I don't think anyone is saying that America doesn't influence the world, in both good and bad ways. Nor would most argue that our involvement in the World Wars or other UN Sanctioned conflicts was/is a bad thing. What people are saying is a bad thing is the imperialistic invasion of a soverign nation for..... well that question is still out. At the moment we are left with either greed, revenge, stupidity or egoism. None of which the most powerful nation in the World should be governed by...

Marb

Tuddi2 · Post by **Tuddi2** » October 1, 2005, 2:33 pm

country A is making 100 units of money per year
country B is making 50 units of money per year

country A and B start to do business.

country A is now making 110 units
country B is now making 57 units

in comes country C

country C is making 5 units of money and most of that going to one man
country C doesn't want to do business with others

country A invades country C and influences the outcome so country C will do business with country A

country A is now making 115 units of money
country B is now making 59 units of money
country C is now making 25 units of money

nothing guarantees peace as effectivily as trade.

Noysyrump · Post by **Noysyrump** » October 1, 2005, 3:25 pm

yeh cause trade stopped germany from invading Russia!

why trade when u can take.

Zamtuk · Post by **Zamtuk** » October 2, 2005, 3:31 am

who the fuck is tuddi2?

Wonko Wenusberg · Post by **Wonko Wenusberg** » October 3, 2005, 6:28 am

Tuddi 2.0 is a cold calculating bot. Isn't that obvious!

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 3, 2005, 10:55 pm

It's not Bush, it's not muslims, it's not Osama. It is all of us as individuals. The battle is personal not global. Fix your personal life, and the world will heal. We must commit to this.

You don't kill a weed by pulling at the leaves, you remove the root. Likewise our global problems are just leaves on the weed. The root resides in our personal acts of selfishness, performed day to day. The selfish acts of you and me, accumulate into the evil of our governments. If we have a selfish heart even our good intentions will end up hurting people.

The encouraging thing about all of this is each of us have a way of making this world better. We all have the ability to address our personal selfishness. Sure it's tough to change your own instincts and destructive habits. That's the whole reason why this world exists, that we may know how little we are.

For me personally, God has given me the surge of energy necessary to address my personal selfishness. He's constantly releasing me from the habits in my life that harm others. He has given me freedom. He equips us to win the core battle.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 4, 2005, 12:35 am

Adex_Xeda wrote: You don't kill a weed by pulling at the leaves, you remove the root.

Why not squirt it with a little killer juice and avoid the fuss?

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » October 4, 2005, 2:02 am

roundup!

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » October 4, 2005, 11:16 am

Spang wrote:the US influences nearly every facet of present-day society. press play on your MP3 player right now if you don't believe me. if you press stop, that's likely what you could be listening to in 30 years if the US were to stop sticking their nose into everything.

Fraunhofer

Tuddi2 · Post by **Tuddi2** » October 8, 2005, 11:04 pm

Noysyrump wrote:yeh cause trade stopped germany from invading Russia!

why trade when u can take.

mki . fine i'll add a clause

... unless there is a fucking dictator loony in charge like hitler, bush etc.

and i'm assuming that "why trade when u can take" is something you dont agree with, or do you practise robbing your nearest convenient store every other day instead of shopping ?

heck . since these forums are swarming with fucking nitpickers i'll change the sentence.

-- nothing guarantees peace as effectivily as FAIR trade --

if you are gaining , and the other person is gaining and you know it'll continue to go on for as long as you can imagine, you dont wanna rock the boat. unless you're fucking stupid.

ps.
Hitler never played risk when he was a kid, invading russia is just stupid, so he falls into the "unless you're fucking stupid" quota.

VeeshanVault

On the use of fear in politics (unfinished)

On the use of fear in politics (unfinished)

Re: On the use of fear in politics (unfinished)

Re: On the use of fear in politics (unfinished)