This touched a bit of a nerve. Gay adoption??

[ZZtheAssassin]

Why the hatred of polls on gay adoption, Klaw. There is no such commandment in Leviticus, not even a requirement that you sacrifice a goat before or after participating in it. As it is one of the few things you can do with out sacrificing some aminal on an alter (as we all know how strictly you follow the Lord's commandments in Leviticus), I would think you'd love it.

Now your mocking our choice in religion, you are wrong in this and had no right to go here.

Religion is the choice of those who chose to practice it, you have no right to infringe upon a choice in religion. If you wanna flame come straight at us but dont mock religion.

[Aaeamdar]

What I feel is that, that is the wrong impression to put on a child / teenager unless you managed to find some way to explain it so that he / she would understand.

Yes, but once again, how is this relevant to the question. This is going to be true of any very large number of circumstances when raising a child. That is why, to me, it seems constructed. To me, the only rational reason (rational in the sense that it would be axiomatic to the person professing it), is that being gay is bad. I don't happen to agree, but that is because it is axiomatic to me that being gay is not bad. No amount of arguing will change that. So, now Klaw and I agree.

Now, other than gays are bad. The only other arguements I have seen have to do with reproductive ability, protecting the child from stigma, or protecting the child from "confussion." The first makes sense. The later three are merely irrational constructs. If you tink gays are bad, there is little I think I can do to convince you otehrwise. If you don't think so, but are holding on to these constructs because of some underlying moral conflict, that I think is capable of change through discussion.

[Aaeamdar]

I am not mocking your religion. I am merely pointing out that the text in Leviticus is surrounded by other prescriptions and commandments and asking why you choose to follow one and ignore the rest.

By the way, even if I were making fun of your religion, that in no way infringes on your choice of religion. Now, if I were to, for example, suggest that we pass a law forbiding Christians from adopting, then I would be actively attempting to infringe on your choice of religion.

[ZZtheAssassin]

I stray from religion in the area of people. People are just that, people, and as such are inclined to doing as they please. I dont believe people should be faulted for certain choices in life when it doesnt actively harm others.

That is my fault right there, my compassion takes me beyond religion. While I maintain my belief's, sometimes I do not tend to agree with them. See its not just being gay that you question, at one point in time you could question anything, be it religion, the world, culture, race, or the kind of car you want to drive.

In nature people question, what you maintain thru this questioning phase is what will become your feelings on the subject, this is how we diversify.

(Strictly an example)- I dont fault teeny for being athiest, of my moms side of the family for being catholic, this has been my whole point from the get go. Impression's decide who YOU are to become, its all about what we modify from these impressions.

Edit: Spelling and grammar own me

[ZZtheAssassin]

I am not mocking your religion. I am merely pointing out that the text in Leviticus is surrounded by other prescriptions and commandments and asking why you choose to follow one and ignore the rest.

By the way, even if I were making fun of your religion, that in no way infringes on your choice of religion. Now, if I were to, for example, suggest that we pass a law forbiding Christians from adopting, then I would be actively attempting to infringe on your choice of religion.

That's true, guess I was just looking to jump all over something, I apologize.

[noel]

I've always liked Krimson. I remember a post he made a long time ago that dealt with prejudice where he gained my respect, and then some. He said, "Is your ass not yellow?" to the guy who wanted to fight a FoH member IRL. It was pretty funny and he made an excellent point.

In this case however I have to strongly disagree with Krimson and Zz. I am Christian, but I will not accept that part of the bible, and I will not be prejudice of homosexuals, or african americans, or mexicans, or jewish people, or arabs, or any other racial or sexual group. I'm not perfect. I definitely have prejudices I need to work on (cake lovers come to mind (J/K)), but they're not relevant to this discussion.

I respect your right to follow the letter of the Bible, but frankly, I disagree, and I won't accept that portion of the Bible.

Given that most homosexual adults came from heterosexual parents, I don't feel that the sexuality of a pair of good parents who is doing everything they can for their child should be societies concern.

In closing, think for yourselves and find out for yourselves. Don't let yourself be limited by your beliefs or your upbringing.

[ZZtheAssassin]

That's the thing Aranuil, we all make these choices based off what we have learned and the impressions we have gained from other individual's. I dont follow my belief's in this matter entirely, because I am torn between people and my religion and this is one of those subject's where I choose to follow what I believe and not what I've been taught to believe.

We are a diversified people and as such we have to diversify our beliefs, while being gay is wrong in my opinion and the opinion of my beliefs, I wont presecute or hate on them, but I do not believe for one second gay people should be able to adopt children for the simple fact their physiology is not capable of it. The people in normal heterosexual relationship's who can have kids cant because of some problem which has destroyed their ability to reproduced, but at least they had that ability at one point.

You were born with the ability to reproduce to, but you choose to stick with the same sex. So therefore you should deal with that.

After all is said and done YOU HAVE A CHOICE, when you are born with something its a test of character and will. You can take it however you please, but you werent forced into being how you are.

For instance, you'd prolly be inclined to call me an asshole, and ya know what? Your right. I choose to be the way I am, what I didnt choose was to be born with 2 sutures(sp?) on my skull to be fused so that I was forced to have a life threatening surgery after my birth, but guess what, I didnt blame that for me being an asshole.

I blame myself and the way I dealt with people growing up. Yeah I was persecuted for that huge scar I have goin from ear to ear on my head. I know what it's like to take shit for something you have no control over, but sometimes you gotta step up and deal with it the best you can, as well as make the best possible choices you can for yourself.

This was an example, and since I didnt wanna piss anyone else off by using them in an example I used myself. Laugh all you want I opened the door.

[Krimson Klaw]

Yup, not everyone thinks the old testament should be followed. I't a difference of religion, that's why we have so many faiths today...because people disagree on so many things in the bible. It's going to happen. Only thing you can do is live life the best you can and wait for judgement...that's all any of us can do.

[noel]

The thing religion was never able to explain to me...

Take a person who is pious, caring, and giving. They give to charity, they follow the Bible, they take care of people, they're polite, they don't judge, they help others, they go to church every Sunday, they set a good example, and always do the best they can... but they're homosexual.

This person is going to go to hell? That makes no sense to me.

BTW Krims, Zz and whoever else, as long as you treat them kindly and fairly IRL, I have no problem with your thinking it's bad/wrong etc. You're entitled to your opinion etc. and I respect that.

[Aaeamdar]

ZZ writes:

I wont presecute or hate on them, but I do not believe for one second gay people should be able to adopt children for the simple fact their physiology is not capable of it.

So you won't persecute them, except for those times when you will?

The people in normal heterosexual relationship's who can have kids cant because of some problem which has destroyed their ability to reproduced, but at least they had that ability at one point.

ok. So adoption does not require proof of the current ability of the pair to procreate, but does require proof that ability at some point in the past, the current couple was capable of having children (thereby, excluding, at a minimum, anyone who was sexually damaged prior to the maturation of their sex organs). BTW, what do you do when a single man or woman shows up at the clinic and applies for an adoption?

Klaw writes:

Yup, not everyone thinks the old testament should be followed.

Am I wrong, or did we not already establish that you do not follow the Old Testiment, but rather only those portions of the Old Testment that suit your lifestyle?

[ZZtheAssassin]

I didn't persecute them once, and I'm not persecuting them now. I am simply saying no I dont believe they should be able to adopt, and a single man is OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS different then 2 men who happen to have a sexual relationship together.

Like I said I have no problem with gay people based entirely on their preference, as long as your cool to me I'll be cool to you. Any choice I make toward not liking someone is strictly at their character as a person, not liking someone just because they are gay or black or asian is wrong and stupid and considering god stands for love and kindness I dont believe in disliking people all due to there beliefs or preference.

[Arborealus]

Aight Homosexuality is deviant. Deviation is a statistical concept not an ethical or moral thing. Deviant has somewhere along the line acquired a perjorative connotation. Nothing wrong with being deviant, you are all deviant on one axis or another so lets ditch the word deviant as a reason for hating folks.

Children of same sex couples have the same probability of being homosexual as children of mixed sex couples. Gender identity and orientation significantly determined by genetics not nurture. Nurture simply affects the comfort level an individual feels in openly expressing this orientation. Being raised by gay parents does not make one gay it makes one more accepting of people in gay relationships and vice versa.

Children need good models for expression of affection. They will not choose the object of their attraction based on the models of affection but they will express their affection as they have seen it expressed.

So the upshot is people in adaptive, emotionally-open, relationships raise healthy kids. People in maladaptive, emotionally repressed relationships raise unhealthy kids. Basically kids need to be able to accurately label the emotions they experience to become emotionally healthy adults.

You can take this on authority or do a literature review or meta-analysis of extant research on the subject if ya like. Don't make me whip out my degrees...

[noel]

I think there's a common misconception that the sexuality of a homosexual man dominates his entire lifestyle. Again, I blame the so-called 'gay activists' who claim to represent homosexuals everywhere.

I hate to break it to you all, but a lot of homosexuals lead completely normal lives, and you'd never know they were gay unless they told you. The problem is, as soon as someone says the word 'gay' most people think of two guys buttfucking or whatever. That's what they do behind closed doors more often than not, it's not a 24 hour man sex show.

[Aaeamdar]

Hence, the logic unfolds. Yes, there is a difference between a single man trying to adopt and a pair of gay men trying to adopt. In the later case, the parents are gay. In the former, he might be straight.

[noel]

Aight Homosexuality is deviant. Deviation is a statistical concept not an ethical or moral thing. Deviant has somewhere along the line acquired a perjorative connotation. Nothing wrong with being deviant, you are all deviant on one axis or another so lets ditch the word deviant as a reason for hating folks.

Children of same sex couples have the same probability of being homosexual as children of mixed sex couples. Gender identity and orientation significantly determined by genetics not nurture. Nurture simply affects the comfort level an individual feels in openly expressing this orientation. Being raised by gay parents does not make one gay it makes one more accepting of people in gay relationships and vice versa.

Children need good models for expression of affection. They will not choose the object of their attraction based on the models of affection but they will express their affection as they have seen it expressed.

So the upshot is people in adaptive, emotionally-open, relationships raise healthy kids. People in maladaptive, emotionally repressed relationships raise unhealthy kids. Basically kids need to be able to accurately label the emotions they experience to become emotionally healthy adults.

You can take this on authority or do a literature review or meta-analysis of extant research on the subject if ya like. Don't make me whip out my degrees...

I hate double posting, but I wanted to just say I agree with EVERYTHING Arbor said, and I really liked his explanation. Fact is, most people only know one definition for deviant, Arbor, and it's the negative connotation. BTW kids, he does have the degrees to back this up.

[Silvarel Mistmoon]

It is very interresting that several people think that because some one is gay they are going to raise a child to be more tolerable of other people. Are Gay people now the perfect people of the world? They make no mistakes, they can not racist?
I know I have met some that fall under all of these as well as straight people.

I notice there are several comments about child molestors or sexual deviance also.
Got news for you, Gay people can fall under these also.

It always amazes me that people will point out the wrongs of christians beliefs but never point out wrongs of non believers or lets say "Gays"
Everything else is just peachy with them.
Just like a preacher is suppose to be a good man with high morals, but in the end he is simply a MAN, a HUMAN.
There are people that well get involved in to a church for access to children. Just like they will get involved in schools to get to children.
Gays are Human they are not perfect. They like all other humans can make the same mistakes as the rest of the human race.

As for the difference between Gay couples not being able to create children with each other and a married couple that can not create children due to medical reasons is this......
Man and woman together are designed if you will to create offspring. This natural and you can not deny that fact.
Man and man or woman and woman together are not designed to create offspring together as same sex couples.

Anyone who has sex infront of their children (as in on the couch floor or what ever) are very VERY irresponsible parents.
A single mother who brings a different man every night is also irresponsible. And I might add this goes for single fathers as well.

I worked with a man who had a sex change and was married to a man. They adopted a child, a boy. I will never forget him sitting there trying to talk to me about giving birth to a child as if he had the first clue as to what a woman REAL woman goes thru. (by the way he never witnessed the birth of any child)

I personally have had a lot of co workers that are gay, they talked a lot about when they knew they were gay the first time, or what they felt like made them gay, or why they chose to be gay.

I do think it is possible for a person to be born gay, I figure if someone can be born with both sets of sex organs why couldn't the X's and Y's be messed up too. But I do know for a fact from being told by several gays they chose that life style. Also have heard the very sad stories of boys being raped by their (this will shock you) gay uncles or straight uncles over and over again and they never had self confidence in theirselves. They were usually the ones that also tended to turn to acholol and drugs.
I have met gay men that for the life of them couldn't understand why another gay man would want to dress like a woman and date a gay man when they were gay to begin with and didn't like dating women.

Just because you believe in Jesus does not mean you hate gay people. IF you really believe in Jesus you do not accept that lifestyle, but you pray for that person and you also are kind to that person when you are dealing with them be it at work or them as a costumer.
I as a christian truley beleive it is the sin that God hates and not the person.
Also someone mentioned they didn't think there were any references to gays in the new testement. I couldn't not find the story, but I know of one story of Jesus being at a mans house and I believe it is two gay men that come to the house and demand they send Jesus out to them. The man offers his daughters to them but they only want Jesus.
I am sure someone who knows their bible books better then I can tell you where this is. That is only one that I can think of off the top of my head.

Be nice to people. Treat people with respect. If they don't show you the same kind of treatment don't go around them or have anything to do with.

[ZZtheAssassin]

I just realized I gave a misconception, the bible doesn't say to dislike them, but it does say you shouldn't have yourself in the company of them. It also say's this about alcoholic's and drug addicts. The bible doesnt teach hate, I was just getting alittle defensive when I felt my choice of religional was coming into question, so I gave abit of a misconception. Again I apologize for that.

Lastly I used the term dislike and their is a big difference between disliking and hating.

[Adelrune Argenti]

The thing religion was never able to explain to me...

Take a person who is pious, caring, and giving. They give to charity, they follow the Bible, they take care of people, they're polite, they don't judge, they help others, they go to church every Sunday, they set a good example, and always do the best they can... but they're homosexual.

This person is going to go to hell? That makes no sense to me.

Aranuil, the crux of that issue is this. To be truly Christian, you follow the precepts and instructions set forth within the Bible. You cant just throw out the parts you dont like and follow the rest. The belief is that the Bible is the infallible word of God set forth and given to everyone. This obviously requires an amount of faith just as being a Christian does as we cannot see a God nor feel him but have to use our reason to discern if we beleive or not. That being said, a person who becomes a Christian is said to be "born again". That means he leaves his known sinful past and begins anew by following the instructions laid out for him/her within the Bible. If you continue to pursue a sinful lifestyle, be it addiction to drugs/alcohol, sexual immorality in any form (sex outside of marriage, homosexuality), or any other of the myriad of sins detailed within the New Testament, many Christian theologians argue that you are not truly living the life of a Christian. Now the thing to remember is this. People shouldnt follow this path in life because they feel they have to but rather because they want to. The inner change within a person, along with the sufficient grace and mercy of God, is enough to transform that person into a new creation.

I really don't like to argue the sinfulness of some action over another. I know all of us sin and will keep on sinning. That is human nature. The important part is to recognize that and work on changing your own behavior, as well as realizing that God's grace is sufficient to forgive those sins as well, so that your life will be an example for others to emulate. Honestly, there is no sin that is unforgivable and there is no such thing as being too late in making a decision to change your life. Anyways I dont want to bog all of you down into the deeper understanding and philosophy of religion, especially Christianity.

[noel]

Here's a great shirt for everyone on the thread with gay friends! I'm sure this would make a great stocking stuffer.

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/tshirt.php?sku=a134

Edit: Yes Adelrune, but that's the crux of the problem in my mind. I see the Bible as more of a suggestion for how to live than as a hard set of rules. Too much of it was written for a time long ago, and not all of it is applicable to present day. I have yet to meet anyone that follows all of the precepts of the Bible.

I think there's a lot you can learn from the Bible, but I don't need the Bible to tell me what's right and what's wrong. I also know plenty of Atheists who are as I described in the post you referenced but they just don't believe in God.

If I go to hell for feeling this way... well I think that's stupid, but so be it. Anyway, I'm getting offtopic here, so I'll stop.

[ZZtheAssassin]

Here's a great shirt for everyone on the thread with gay friends! I'm sure this would make a great stocking stuffer.

http://www.tshirthell.com/shirts/tshirt.php?sku=a134

That could be taken so many different way's. Lmao

[KilornCloudwalker]

More politics....this thread needs more views!!!

[Krimson Klaw]

Am I wrong, or did we not already establish that you do not follow the Old Testiment, but rather only those portions of the Old Testment that suit your lifestyle?

Yes, you are wrong. Next question.

[Adex_Xeda]

Homosexuality is neither deviant, or immoral. Scientific evidence is pointing very strongly to homosexuality being a matter of genetics, not choice.

Have we degraded so much as a society that we now look to science to determine our morality?

Science is a tool you use to solve the unknown. Attempting to use it as a moral measure is as frustrating as using a tape measure to weigh a ham.

[kyoukan]

lol all fags go to hell rofl fred phelps says so and its in the bible lol

I guess you also don't trim your hair at the temples and you fast from meat on fridays, right krimson? because directly after leviticus says don't have sex with other men or you will go to hell, it VERY CLEARLY STATES don't ever cut your hair at the temples and don't ever eat meat on fridays.

And don't try to worm your way out of it because I WILL quote CHAPTER AND VERSE for you.

So krim do you look like a hasidic jew with a foot of curly hair dangling down at your temple and do you fast on fridays? if not then you are going to hell for being an awful christian whether or not you enjoy the mansex.

I'll see you there, you poor damned soul!

[Adex_Xeda]

or should I say turkey, being the season and all...

[Krimson Klaw]

I think a gay person has as much chance of going to hell as someone who lies or does anything else immoral. I have not read anywhere where it's 100% guaranteed all gays go to hell. If I am wrong let me know.

[Adex_Xeda]

Actually Kyo that hair trimming rule still applies.

If you cut your hair in a way that identifies you as a Baal worshiper (the original reason for the rule.) then you violated the rule.

That rule is better understood as, "If you're on God's team, don't dress up like the opposition."


The same motivation was behind all those nitty gritty rules about food preparation. One part was hygene in an early environment, the other motivation was laying out some rules that early Jews could follow that allowed them a sense of identity. Just as Americans tend to celebrate the 4th of July and Memorial Day, the early Jews identified themselves by following traditions that God (via Moses) laid out.


Those rules still apply today. If you're on God's team, he wants you to act, like it.

If you as a God follower go out and do something that others interpret as "surely that guy's not a God lover" then you violated those old rules.

[Krimson Klaw]

And don't try to worm your way out of it because I WILL quote CHAPTER AND VERSE for you.

Hehe, by all means, quote CHAPTER AND VERSE for me.

[Arborealus]

LOL love the sig there Adex....I have a "Reunite Gondwanaland!" bumper sticker...

And just for reference I am not a moral person, I have no religion...I live based on ethics derived from what I can empirically verify...I can not ethically make judgements about other people based on a system which they may not ascribe to (morality), I am comfortable making judgements based on something which is empirical and which is applicable regardless of morality.

In a pluralisitc society composed of persons of varying religious belief systems, it is unresonable to use morality as a basis for decisions affecting one's freedoms, morality is, as we see from the multiple positions people have taken here, too individual to derive law from. Law should be derived from what can be proved to be harmful not from what one feels is wrong.

[kyoukan]

Hehe, by all means, quote CHAPTER AND VERSE for me.

You are not familiar with Leviticus?

[Adex_Xeda]

We make moral judgements all day long. Society is based on it.

Most of us agree to a common morality when it comes to things like murder or theft.


Some people think there's a perfect moral code out there via God(s). (pick your faith)


You have to pass judgement to function.

You have to make a moral judgement when determining how you want your country go.

Personally, I consider acting on homosexual impulses as I would adultery or lieing. Its wrong.

Personally I oppose two openly gay people adopting just as much as I would oppose two pathological liars, or repeat cheaters adopting.

Based on my best guess to what's right and wrong, I vote.

I'm not a bad person for doing that. I'm just like anyone else trying do what's best for my country.

I perfectly respect a gay person's right to disagree with me. I respect them working vote against me. That's America.




[/list]

[Adex_Xeda]

I'll side with Kyo here, there are some very wacky rules in Leviticus. But, if you know their context (see above posts) they make sense. =)

[Krimson Klaw]

Hehe, by all means, quote CHAPTER AND VERSE for me.

You are not familiar with Leviticus?

Not as much as I would like to be, so please quote some things for me.

[kyoukan]

Leviticus 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

Leviticus 19:27 27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

I could go on about how Leviticus requires you to sacrifice goats to the LORD and how you aren't supposed to eat meat on Fridays. Are you saying that the no fags rule is justifiable as sin and the rest aren't? There are chapters upon chapters of rules in Leviticus (being the chapter where god really lays down the law) that no practical Christian ever follows, yet they drag out the bible and christian morality on every debate about homosexuality.

Hypocrisy is also a sin, btw.

[Fairweather Pure]

God hates fags. This means you hate fags too. If you do not hate fags, you are not a good Christian. If your lifelong friend comes out of the closet, he deserves your pity, because God is sending him directly to hell.

Sodom and Gomorra ring any religious bells out there? God destroyed an entire city, killing thousands of people because he hates fags so much!

There is absolutely no pussy footing around the above. You must carry the torch of hatred and pass it along to your children or else who knows what will happen if faggots were considered equals?

And people wonder why religion is so often despised by so many. IMO, the world will be so much better once religion is completely phased out. I only wish it would happen in my lifetime.

[Krimson Klaw]

I want you to find the part where you said all gays go to hell. yea, that's what I want to see you find.

[noel]

If you have some time, Kyoukan, post a few more.

It really hammers home a point I was trying to make. The Bible is excellent at persenting us with parables that give us guidelines for our lives...

But, it is NOT TO BE TAKEN WORD FOR WORD. In my opinion.

[Fairweather Pure]

I want you to find the part where you said all gays go to hell.

What do you think God did to the people of Sodom and Gomorra after he killed them? Threw a "Welcome to Heaven" party? Although I will admit that logic and religion never go hand in hand. That would defeat the whole purpose of religion!

[kyoukan]

I want you to find the part where you said all gays go to hell. yea, that's what I want to see you find.

Leviticus is a list of sins before God. How else do you go to hell if not for sinning?

Here is a list of the entire book with several versions and translations of each chapter.

[Adelrune Argenti]

I have already explained what Leviticus was but you all like to keep dragging it into this argument because you think it helps your point. Leviticus was a list of instructions that were to be kept by the jews prior to the coming of the Messiah. After Christ, they really dont apply much.

[ZZtheAssassin]

God hates fags. This means you hate fags too. If you do not hate fags, you are not a good Christian. If your lifelong friend comes out of the closet, he deserves your pity, because God is sending him directly to hell.

Sodom and Gomorra ring any religious bells out there? God destroyed an entire city, killing thousands of people because he hates fags so much!

There is absolutely no pussy footing around the above. You must carry the torch of hatred and pass it along to your children or else who knows what will happen if faggots were considered equals?

And people wonder why religion is so often despised by so many. IMO, the world will be so much better once religion is completely phased out. I only wish it would happen in my lifetime.

Wrong, god destroyed that city and sodom and gomorra because they were sodomizers ( hence the term "sodomy" ) and they encouraged the whole town to do it. The entire town was full of sin and they did whatever they wanted, god couldnt tolerate the mocking any longer and destroyed it.

God also warned "Lot" and his wife "Sarah" to leave and never look back, Sarah looked back and turned into a pillar of salt.

Dont post such frivilous mindless bullshit Fairweather

[Arborealus]

We make moral judgements all day long.

No you make them...I make ethical judgements

Yours are based on what you feel and believe. Mine are based on what I can show and what others can verify.

The Bible has an excellent set of basic ethics many or even most of which are verifiably good ideas for social contracts, and many of which are echoed in multiple religions. It also has a number of really weird ethics which may have been perfectly rational when and where they were codified but have no footing in the world as it exists now. Limiting the freedom of others based on superstition or authority is a dangerous social precedent.

You wanna see someone go all HD Thoreau on you? Try and limit my freedom based on your belief......I will be civilly disobedient in a heartbeat...And if all cannot subscribe to the social contract that the law must be, then it is not truely a social contract or a government of the people but a government of some people

[ZZtheAssassin]

We make moral judgements all day long.

No you make them...I make ethical judgements

Yours are based on what you feel and believe. Mine are based on what I can show and what others can verify.

The Bible has an excellent set of basic ethics many or even most of which are verifiably good ideas for social contracts, and many of which are echoed in multiple religions. It also has a number of really weird ethics which may have been perfectly rational when and where they were codified but have no footing in the world as it exists now. Limiting the freedom of others based on superstition or authority is a dangerous social precedent.

You wanna see someone go all HD Thoreau on you? Try and limit my freedom based on your belief......I will be civilly disobedient in a heartbeat...And if all cannot subscribe to the social contract that the law must be, then it is not truely a social contract or a government of the people but a government of some people

So basically what your saying is just because we can't see air or taste it, it couldnt possibly be there?

[Arborealus]

No Im not saying that at all...

I am saying if you cannot show someone why a rule is reasonable and they should ascribe and agree to it, then it will never be their rule

I am further saying that limiting freedom based on anything which is in any way vague or unexplainable is dangerous and unethical

I cannot directly experience (ie through my senses) X-Rays but they can certainly kill me...There are many things which are scientifically unexplained at this point in time...I am not asserting that they dont exist just that limiting the freedom of other based on "what might be" is dangerous, because it also "might not be" and then you have limited freedom for no reason...when in doubt err on the side of individual freedom

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I just realized I gave a misconception, the bible doesn't say to dislike them, but it does say you shouldn't have yourself in the company of them. It also say's this about alcoholic's and drug addicts. The bible doesnt teach hate, I was just getting alittle defensive when I felt my choice of religional was coming into question, so I gave abit of a misconception. Again I apologize for that.

Lastly I used the term dislike and their is a big difference between disliking and hating.

Quoting the bible makes your argument as effective as using the manual for "Ultima IV:Quest of the Avatar".

They are both made up, pretend, bullshit.


Quote from real-life.

Quote from what you can hear, see, taste, smell and touch.

When is the last time you saw your Jesus, your Allah, your Buddah?

You never have and you never will.

Live by the real existing people and not the make believe.

[Sinfutura/Sinsem]

I don't think Homosexual should adopts children unless the child have a no other alternative.

However if the parents of the child say it is ok for him/her to have homesexual foster-parents. Then it is fine with me.

Also, I do think Homosexuality is a genetic abnormality. Just as people can be born with both male and female sex organs, some people can be born abnormality that cause it have sexual desire for the same sex.

I don't think homosexual lifestyle is *wrong*. What ever make you happy while not infringing on someone else's life/happiness is fine with me.

[ZZtheAssassin]

I just realized I gave a misconception, the bible doesn't say to dislike them, but it does say you shouldn't have yourself in the company of them. It also say's this about alcoholic's and drug addicts. The bible doesnt teach hate, I was just getting alittle defensive when I felt my choice of religional was coming into question, so I gave abit of a misconception. Again I apologize for that.

Lastly I used the term dislike and their is a big difference between disliking and hating.

Quoting the bible makes your argument as effective as using the manual for "Ultima IV:Quest of the Avatar".

They are both made up, pretend, bullshit.


Quote from real-life.

Quote from what you can hear, see, taste, smell and touch.

When is the last time you saw your Jesus, your Allah, your Buddah?

You never have and you never will.

Live by the real existing people and not the make believe.

This coming from the same person who quoted an extremely incorrect statement by Andrew "Dice" Clay?

In other news, this is the exact reason why I will see you in hell you ignorant fucktard.

Edit: Forgot to mention I didnt quote the bible once, and I didnt bring up a word of what it said until just acouple posts ago. I was apologizing for giving an inaccurate representation of a core teaching.

Before you say something so stupid, gain some reading comprehension.

[kyoukan]

I have already explained what Leviticus was but you all like to keep dragging it into this argument because you think it helps your point. Leviticus was a list of instructions that were to be kept by the jews prior to the coming of the Messiah. After Christ, they really dont apply much.

I could not fart sideways to a dime about what it was for and what it is now. The entire fucking book is hypocritical toilet paper as far as I'm concerned. Leviticus is the book that christian homophobes yank out when they talk about how homosexuality is immoral and God will send you to hell for doing it. There is no other reference to homosexuality being bad in the bible.

I'm curious as to when God flew down to earth on fairy wings and let us all know that we can stop following the rules laid out in Leviticus though; because certainly you wouldn't presume to speak for God, would you?

[Krimson Klaw]

I want you to find the part where you said all gays go to hell. yea, that's what I want to see you find.

Leviticus is a list of sins before God. How else do you go to hell if not for sinning?

Here is a list of the entire book with several versions and translations of each chapter.

You still can't find the part where you said all gays go to hell? You said you would quote CHAPTER AND VERSE for me. You lied to me.

[kyoukan]

Don't play fucking word games with me; it doesn't make you look any smarter.