You racist!masteen wrote:In this crazy spherical world, we have laws. Those who break the laws are criminals. This is a black and white issue.
oops? (london suspect shooting)
No Sab I don't think you think that
I am not blaming the police, I just think it was a fuck up.
The shoot to kill policy was a secret (as far as I am aware) until this situation took place, at which point, most of the country has been up in arms about it.
I place blame on the government and collectively all of us citizens (that means me too) for allowing our government to put us in this position with their ridiculous overseas adventures and then passing extreme reactionary policies that kill yet more innocent people.
Just because a law is broken doesn't mean it's dishonest to do so Masteen.
I am not blaming the police, I just think it was a fuck up.
The shoot to kill policy was a secret (as far as I am aware) until this situation took place, at which point, most of the country has been up in arms about it.
I place blame on the government and collectively all of us citizens (that means me too) for allowing our government to put us in this position with their ridiculous overseas adventures and then passing extreme reactionary policies that kill yet more innocent people.
Just because a law is broken doesn't mean it's dishonest to do so Masteen.
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then why are we paying for oil if it just belongs to everyone anyway?Nick wrote:I wouldn't class someone as dishonest for "being in a country illegally".
Then again, I believe (absurdly enough) that we live in a spherical world owned by all of us collectively, and not just some random governments that gets something like 10% of the popular vote - ala Britain..
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In all honesty, working in a country with an expired visa is pretty low on the 'criminal' scale.masteen wrote:In this crazy spherical world, we have laws. Those who break the laws are criminals. This is a black and white issue.
While I do recognize that there are degrees of criminality with rape and murder at one end and speeding at the other, trying to say this guy was just a good ole boy, never meanin no harm does not change the fact that he was breaking the law EVERY DAY simply by being there. Clearly, he knew this too, which is why he ran from the cops.
This guy was most likely an honest, law abiding citizen as much as you or I. Because he was not 'known to police' seems to back that up.
In hindsight, running away was probably not the smartest thing to do, but when some guys in street clothes start chasing you, it might have seemed like the right decision at the time.
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That's typical of you, Kelshara. Way to keep proving yourself a dipshit.
Regardless of all the other nonsense, the main point is going to be wether or not the cops identified themselves to the guy properly, or if they just ran at him with guns drawn.
Regardless of all the other nonsense, the main point is going to be wether or not the cops identified themselves to the guy properly, or if they just ran at him with guns drawn.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
kelshara is probably sympathetic because he should have had his ass deported back to that oversized nazi ski resort known as norway half a decade ago.
I'm thinking about an anonymous tip to the INS myself, although "that lame-fisted sanctimonious retard crudding up the vault with his gay" probably isn't enough information for them to go on.
I'm thinking about an anonymous tip to the INS myself, although "that lame-fisted sanctimonious retard crudding up the vault with his gay" probably isn't enough information for them to go on.
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The reason you are a dumbass is because you missed the point. The entire second part of that post is about expectations of punishment for varying degrees of crime, in an attempt to show how Jean, because of his illegal status, decided that it would be better to run from the police, and put himself in a much worse situation than simple deportation.
p.s. I'm getting my infoz from teh bbc not that piece of trash the guardian.
p.s. I'm getting my infoz from teh bbc not that piece of trash the guardian.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
But you are still claiming it is open season on criminels. If being in the country illegally deserves 8 shots to the back of the head, then how about jaywalking? Caning? Or maybe cutting hands off for petty theft?
(Btw I am mostly poking at you here without being serious although part of me seriously wonder about people who defend this shooting blindly).
(Btw I am mostly poking at you here without being serious although part of me seriously wonder about people who defend this shooting blindly).
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My point about the spectrum of crimes was to illustrate that there are points where you obviously don't run from the cops. I get speeding tickets sometimes, but I have never been shot because I don't fucking run from the cops.
What I am saying is that the closer you put yourself on that continuum to capital crimes, and running from the police comes onto the option list(i.e. being in England on an expired visa), the more you should expect more dire consequences.
I do not think this guy deserved to be shot. He did, however, contribute greatly to the circumstance.
What I am saying is that the closer you put yourself on that continuum to capital crimes, and running from the police comes onto the option list(i.e. being in England on an expired visa), the more you should expect more dire consequences.
I do not think this guy deserved to be shot. He did, however, contribute greatly to the circumstance.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
Well, it is obvious that the man contributed to his own demise. He certainly made some poor decision in the final moments of his life. However, it is equally clear that the police grossly over reacted to the situation. It seems to me the whole crux of the argument comes down to whether or not you blame the police for over reacting. The police were clearly under a great deal of stress because of the recent activities, but I'm not sure that excuses them. They are, after all, trained professionals. They have, supposedly, been trained to deal with stressful situations better than your average Joe Schmoe. We also have to consider what intel the police may or may not have had about the person they were watching for, and how dire the perceived threat was. Either way, it is a terrible tragedy. An innocent man is dead, and the officers involved will have to live with that for the rest of their lives. I'm sure that they would change the way things happened if they could. As it stands now, it is pointless to blame the officers until it has been established whether or not they followed proper procedure, what information they had from their superiors, etc.
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speaking of asking the oil companies nick, my base i work at here uses two windmills that power the whole base with with electricity with plenty left over for residents close by. if it works here why can't more places especially here in the valley switch to alternate energy sources? unfortunatly there is too much money to be made off all the worlds problems to do the right thing.
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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Benjamin Franklin
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The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Benjamin Franklin
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Yeah.. Because he was just some random guy walking down the sidewalk. The cops all shouted 'Brown man!', jumped on him and shot him in the head. Just for fun of course.2 million people a day use the underground, taking a potshot at some random when you are paranoid he is a terrorist and after you have caught him is completely unjustifiable, no matter what anyone happens to say here.
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But his relative, their lawyer, and Bianca Jagger, the professional attention whore, they are all giving us the straight infoz, right Teeny? No spin at all from them. Could you be more naive?
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In GitmoNiffoni wrote:Let's give them free medical and psychological care!Wiever wrote:Their failed attempts were clearly a cry for help.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
http://smh.com.au/news/world/aim-for-th ... 52852.html
In other news, suicide bombers advised to install dead-man switches.The organisation that represents police chiefs around the world has issued guidelines saying that officers who confront a suicide bomber should shoot the suspect in the head.
The recommendations from the International Association of Chiefs of Police take a more aggressive posture than typical lethal-force guidelines.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
I'm not really familiar with how reliable the source is, but the details they give are interesting.
Article link.
Article link.
Blunders led to police killing of an innocent man
ALASTAIR JAMIESON AND CRAIG BROWN
Key points
• Leaked documents claim suspect was not running away when shot
• Earlier claims on suspect's dress and vaulting of barrier also challenged
• Revelations will add to embarrassment of Met Police over killing
Key quote
"As he walked out of my line of vision I checked the photographs and transmitted that it would be worth someone else having a look. I should point out that, as I observed this male exiting the block, I was in the process of relieving myself." - SURVEILLANCE OFFICER
Story in full AN INNOCENT man shot dead by police who mistook him for a suicide bomber was not running away from armed officers, was grabbed by them before being killed and was never adequately identified as a suspect, according to leaked police documents revealed last night.
Jean Charles de Menezes, a Brazilian electrician, stopped to pick up a newspaper and used a travelcard to pass through the ticket barrier of a London Tube station, according to witness statements obtained by ITV News - contradicting earlier claims that he had vaulted the barriers and sprinted down the escalators.
Mr de Menezes, 27, was shown wearing a blue denim jacket in forensic photographs obtained by the channel, as opposed to earlier claims that he was wearing a bulky winter coat before he was shot on board a Tube train. And one officer earlier failed to identify Mr de Menezes because he was "relieving himself" during the surveillance operation.
The extraordinary revelations will add to the embarrassment of the Metropolitan Police, which is already expected to have to pay more than £500,000 in compensation to the victim's family, and came as the force announced an expansion of its firearms unit to cope with the terrorism threat.
The leaked documents give a startling insight into blunders made during the surveillance operation on 22 July, the day after four attempted transport bombings in London.
Both surveillance and firearms officers had been using photos of suspects taken from a gym membership card found in one of the bombers' flats.
One surveillance officer admitted he could not identify Mr de Menezes because he was relieving himself as the Brazilian left his home - a block of flats in Tulse Hill where it was thought one of the bombers, Hussain Osman, lived.
"As he walked out of my line of vision I checked the photographs and transmitted that it would be worth someone else having a look. I should point out that, as I observed this male exiting the block, I was in the process of relieving myself.
"At this time I was not able to transmit my observations and switch on the video camera at the same time. There is therefore no video footage of this male."
A second officer also failed to give a positive identification but claimed the suspect had "distinctive Mongolian eyes".
While none of the officers was sure he was the suspect, they followed him as he caught a bus towards Stockwell. By this time, the officers became convinced he was the terrorist suspect and senior commanders declared a "Code Red" - handing the operation over to officers at the Metropolitan Police SO19 tactical firearms unit, who were given the task of apprehending Mr de Menezes - with permission to shoot if necessary.
SO19 was told he must not be allowed to enter a station, but the delay in identification meant Mr de Menezes had already gone into Stockwell Tube station when officers arrived. CCTV captured Mr de Menezes entering the station at a "normal walking pace", even collecting a free Metro newspaper, and slowly descending on an escalator.
"At some point near the bottom he is seen to run across the concourse ... and enter the carriage before sitting in an available seat. Almost simultaneously armed officers ... were provided with positive identification," the document says.
One eyewitness on the train said: "[Mr de Menezes] paused, looked right, looked left and then selected an empty seat."
But this contradicts earlier claims he ran all the way on to the train and refused to stop when officers shouted.
A man sitting opposite him on the Tube is quoted as saying: "Within a few seconds I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left. He was pointing a small black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me. He pointed the gun at the right-hand side of the man's head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man's head when the first shot was fired."
But a member of the surveillance team said in the report: "I heard shouting which included the word 'police', and turned to face the male in the denim jacket. He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the SO19 officers ... I grabbed the male by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.
"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting ... I then heard a gunshot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage."
The report also said a post-mortem examination showed Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but three other bullets missed, with the casings left lying in the Tube carriage.
Evidence of the incident should have been provided by CCTV footage from dozens of cameras covering the Stockwell ticket hall, escalators, platforms and train carriages, but police say most of the cameras were not working.
The botched operation is already the subject of an Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation. The commission is assessing whether rules for dealing with suspected suicide bombers were complied with, and whether Mr de Menezes was killed lawfully.
An inquest will also be held into the death, which has raised widespread concerns about the police's "shoot-to-kill policy".
A Home Office spokeswoman said: "It is not appropriate to comment while there is an ongoing investigation."
Harriet Wistrich, a lawyer for the de Menezes family, said: "I think it is absolutely shocking and terrifying. Shocking certainly in the sense that we now know that the information that was being put out at the start is false in many respects."
"For the family, they can now be absolutely assured that not only was he entirely innocent, but that he was doing nothing that should have warranted the police reaction. It's further shocking that even if he was the suspect, the police allowed him to travel on a bus.
"He was carrying nothing; he was wearing nothing that would suggest that he was hiding explosives. He was enabled to travel all the way down the escalators and get on to a Tube, and he was shot with the intention of killing him."
Scotland Yard said it could not comment while the IPCC investigation was ongoing.
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I still don't see anything official AT ALL saying anything one way or another. All that CNN article has is second hand information from something called ITV, which I have never heard of.
Officially, all we know is that he's dead, the cops shot him, and his family and their lawyers are pissing and moaning.
Yeah, we got some great infoz going on here. I bet those seekrit documents also detail who shot Kennedy, where Elvis is living today, and exactly how the moon landing was faked.ITV News based its report on secret documents and photographs the network said it obtained about the death of Jean Charles de Menezes
Officially, all we know is that he's dead, the cops shot him, and his family and their lawyers are pissing and moaning.
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The only 'official' story is that he was wearing a heavy coat, ran away, jumped the turnstyle and ran into a subway train.I still don't see anything official AT ALL saying anything one way or another
Actually....
There were pictures of him wearing not a heavy coat, but a very ordinary denim jacket.
There are several eyewitness accounts corroberating the story that he walked (not ran) into the subway train.
There are several eyewitness accounts stating that he picked up a metro newspaper and used a transit pass to enter the tube station (he didn't jump the turnstyle)
And then we have the rather strange story about the CCTV not working in the tube station on that particular morning, when it was apparently working fine the day before and the day after.
If you don;t think that sounds pretty suspicious, I have some Iraqi WMDs for sale that I think you might be interested in.
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I'm not that keen on conspiracy theories, but magical disappearing footage (especially when it's private footage collected by security agencies) really does work well at providing the faithful with the seed of doubt to wrap their hopes around.miir wrote: And then we have the rather strange story about the CCTV not working in the tube station on that particular morning, when it was apparently working fine the day before and the day after.
May 2003 - "Mission Accomplished"
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
June 2005 - "The mission isn't easy, and it will not be accomplished overnight"
-- G W Bush, freelance writer for The Daily Show.
I guess the police line will come out sooner or later.
All I know is that I have seen with my own eyes pictures of the guy lying on the train, he is wearing a light blue jacket, one that is more like a zip jumper than a jacket even, and could never EVER have been mistaken for a winter coat, and could NEVER hide bombs under it.
ITV is a british news channel (that I tend to find is a government whore) Masteen.
It's all coming out in the wash.
All I know is that I have seen with my own eyes pictures of the guy lying on the train, he is wearing a light blue jacket, one that is more like a zip jumper than a jacket even, and could never EVER have been mistaken for a winter coat, and could NEVER hide bombs under it.
ITV is a british news channel (that I tend to find is a government whore) Masteen.
It's all coming out in the wash.
Last edited by Nick on August 19, 2005, 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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miir, aside of the bullshit in the Guardian, which cited ONE eyewitness who was outside the terminal, all the other witness accounts reported by reputable news sources (ie the BBC) back up the cops' story. So what else you got?
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
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It also seems odd that the chief of police tried to block an independent inquiry on the incident.
If it really has happened as they claimed, there would be no need to hide anything.
Can you quote any eyewitness account from any 'reputable' news source that backs up the police 'press release'?
If it really has happened as they claimed, there would be no need to hide anything.
As nick said, that is completely false.all the other witness accounts reported by reputable news sources (ie the BBC) back up the cops' story.
Can you quote any eyewitness account from any 'reputable' news source that backs up the police 'press release'?
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706913.stmmiir wrote:As nick said, that is completely false.
Can you quote any eyewitness account from any 'reputable' news source that backs up the police 'press release'?
Thick coat, baseball hat, running away from the cops. Any other questions?
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That's hillarious...
It's like everything he said was complete bullshit.
I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train
He was largely built, he was quite a chubby sort of guy
was a coat you'd wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket
Hope these img links work:
Looks like a denim jacket to me... and he also looks pretty damn skinny... hard to tell because he probably lost a few litres of blood from those 8 bullets.
Asian... uhhh I dont think so.
Regardless, it pretty difficult to check the accuracy of an on-the-spot eyewitness' story. In hindsight, it's pretty obvious this eyewitness wasn't anywhere near what happened and was just regurgitating rumors that he had heard.
It's like everything he said was complete bullshit.
I saw an Asian guy. He ran on to the train
He was largely built, he was quite a chubby sort of guy
was a coat you'd wear in winter, sort of like a padded jacket
Hope these img links work:
Looks like a denim jacket to me... and he also looks pretty damn skinny... hard to tell because he probably lost a few litres of blood from those 8 bullets.
Asian... uhhh I dont think so.
Regardless, it pretty difficult to check the accuracy of an on-the-spot eyewitness' story. In hindsight, it's pretty obvious this eyewitness wasn't anywhere near what happened and was just regurgitating rumors that he had heard.
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Yeah, he wasn't sitting in the car when this happened. That's clearly why the BBC dedicated an eitire article to him.
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Did you even listen to the interview?masteen wrote:Yeah, he wasn't sitting in the car when this happened. That's clearly why the BBC dedicated an eitire article to him.
In light of the evidence that has come out since that interview, it's pretty obvious he wasn't.
Just take a look at the corpse laying there in the subway, then take a look at his face. Does that look like a chubby pakistani guy wearing a heavy padded coat?
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