oops? (london suspect shooting)

Farrel · Post by **Farrel** » July 23, 2005, 6:46 pm

didnt see a thread here so I figured I start one.

LONDON - Police on Saturday identified a man they mistakenly shot dead in a London subway station during the investigation into recent terrorist attacks as a 27-year-old Brazilian citizen.

The victim was wearing a heavy padded coat when plainclothes police chased him into a subway car, pinned him to the ground and shot him in the head and torso.

"The man who was shot was under police observation because he had emerged from a house that was itself under observation because it was linked to the investigation of yesterday's incidents," police said then.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8655541/

Id like to know why buddy was resisting arrest in the manner that he did, but I guess big europe guys with guns would scare me into a sprint too.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » July 23, 2005, 7:18 pm

People who haven't done anything don't run...

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 23, 2005, 7:22 pm

They could if they are scared to death. Since the first terror attack one house has been found soaked in gasoline, a mosque received a bomb threat and had to be evacuated and they have received countless death threats. The cops were dressed as civilians as well. It is very easy to sit here and say "Hey! He ran!" but it is very difficult for any of us to imagine how his situation was. What he felt, how scared he was, what he thought about the people following him..

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » July 23, 2005, 7:25 pm

Well at least the british muslim community knows not to run from the cops..

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 23, 2005, 8:06 pm

Welcome to England, where it is now A OK to shoot brown people 5 times in the head dead who haven't done anything and aren't carrying any weapons.

Btw, if you really feel like justifying this, you're so far beyond retarded you should just stop typing and punch yourself in the dick repeatedly so we never have another one of your kind. Even the fucking police aren't bothering to try.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » July 23, 2005, 8:48 pm

You know I pointed out in recent weeks that pissing off the Brits is fucking ignorant, they were responsible for more human rights violations over the course of 3 centuries than any government other than Nazi Germany and Germany had to industrialize murder to pull it off.

Ask people in Ireland, all over Africa, Argentina, Mexico, all of South America, Asia, native Australians, the subcontinent et al, well you get the idea.

England has proven itself willing to sacrifice anything, anyone, even to the point of collapse rather than lose.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 23, 2005, 8:57 pm

What?

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » July 23, 2005, 8:58 pm

Nick wrote:What?

I think he was sympathizing with you.. that or writing some more bad poetry.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » July 23, 2005, 10:58 pm

Honestly I can see how it happened from both sides. Still, a hearty "You Fucked Up" chant for the waste of human life.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 23, 2005, 11:27 pm

who here thinks that running from cops and jumping over a subway turnstile the day after a bomb goes off in a subway is a way NOT TO GET SHOT?

darwin award for this dude.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 23, 2005, 11:37 pm

Plain clothed policemen.

Sorry, unlike the USA, our policemen aren't allowed to just shoot people for running away.

Not to mention they had caught him when they shot him.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 23, 2005, 11:54 pm

Actually, they're not supposed to shoot them when they run here either. It all has to do with how big of a threat to others they pose. Watch Cops a few times to see some funny ouy-of-shape officers chasing down people strung out on heroin for some laughs.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 24, 2005, 12:05 am

Oh christ I hate those shows, proudly displaying Police brutality as if it's some peon of fucking honour or something.

I refuse to watch them anymore.

Boogahz · Post by **Boogahz** » July 24, 2005, 12:11 am

But they don't shoot!

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 24, 2005, 12:22 am

In fairness, I have seen them shoot people, although the people they shoot tend to be kidnapping/hostage/lunatic driving etc and aren't much of a loss ;p

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » July 24, 2005, 12:42 am

I wasn't sure...so I had to re-read your posts...but you really are that clueless. I was watching BBC and they said they found a fingerprint on one of the backpacks that failed to fully explode. They traced that fingerprint to a person inside the house they were watching. Someone comes out of that house and is eventually approached by the police. He is wearing a puffy jacket in the summer...and he runs into the subway.

First off...he ran...for whatever reason. Second he ran into the subway a day after the botched bombing attempt...2 weeks after 50+ people were killed. On the BBC they said those police are trained to make sure that someone does not have a chance to trigger a bomb...and their training is to render a person incapable of doing that by killing them. If you want to make sure someone is dead and incapable of moving...you do it the way they did it...you make CERTAIN they can not move even a finger.

What would you have said if you read the police surrounded him or tackled him...and he set off a bomb killing and/or maiming everyone around him? The police did the right thing in light of the events of the past two weeks and behavior of this person.

For you to hop on your soapbox and cry how England just declared open season on brown people...in your typical retarded fashion...just goes to show how blind you are to the reality of the situation. Did the police make a mistake? Yes. Was it a justified shooting based on the events and happenings? Yes.

The only thing I am critical of is the fact that these people that tried to blow themselves up weren't beaten by the other people on the trains/bus.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 24, 2005, 12:53 am

So I am clueless for thinking that an unarmed man who had (feel free to check to the BBC Website for info on this btw Moon) NOTHING WHA!TSOEVER! with any gang AT ALL is not a "justifiable" death.

Your the sort of person who thinks its ok to kill 100 Muslims if 10 of them are guilty, as long as we get some sort of return at some point, then who cares who dies as long as they aren't you or family?

Fucking moron.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 24, 2005, 1:55 am

Moonwynd wrote:I wasn't sure...so I had to re-read your posts...but you really are that clueless. I was watching BBC and they said they found a fingerprint on one of the backpacks that failed to fully explode. They traced that fingerprint to a person inside the house they were watching. Someone comes out of that house and is eventually approached by the police. He is wearing a puffy jacket in the summer...and he runs into the subway.

It was an apartment building. You know, with quite a few people in it? But hey, if a college kid living in a dorm is a drunk driver they can arrest them all for it huh?

The rest of your post isn't even worth commenting on it. You disgust me.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » July 24, 2005, 1:58 am

Nick, you're a fool.

This case is pretty damn clear. It's unfortunate he died but it wasn't anything near being a case of careless aggression.

Try running around in the subways next time you're in London. Wear a bulky coat while you're at it. Preferrably right after a bombing. Be sure to take off when the authorities tell you to stop.

For the rest of the population, use some common sense. The police are going to be highly suspicious of anything unusual with continued bombings. That means killing someone if they don't stop immediately when ordered to vs having them possibly detonate an explosive. If they don't have an explosive then they have nothing to worry about by stopping and cooperating during a tense time.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 24, 2005, 2:03 am

Yeah, you swayed me Winnow, it's perfectly ok to shoot muslims in coats if they don't stop after being told to by men in normal clothes (especially after the increase in anti-muslim sentiment!), nevermind the mother fucking fact that he was completely innocent, its wholely irrelevant here!

Brainwash yourself a little more please.

Soreali · Post by **Soreali** » July 24, 2005, 2:18 am

Nick wrote:Yeah, you swayed me Winnow, it's perfectly ok to shoot muslims in coats if they don't stop after being told to by men in normal clothes (especially after the increase in anti-muslim sentiment!), nevermind the mother fucking fact that he was completely innocent, its wholely irrelevant here!

Brainwash yourself a little more please.

I'm sorry Nick, please don't take any offense to this but were you there? Do you know exactly what happened? For all we know the cops could have identified themselves before going after the man.. Don't get me wrong i'm not siding with them for what they did but normally when someone starts to take off from an officer who yes we know were in street clothes does seem rather suspicious.. I highly doubt it was a "Hey theres a brownie in a jacket lets get him!" incident.

If this makes no sense to you, my apologies. I'm a bit tired and a bit drunk but I had to add something.. Again Nick don't take any offense to what i said.. Not here to start shit.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 24, 2005, 2:58 am

People need to know that when you ignore police orders or run away from them, their life is in jeopardy.

Also, Nick.... they said he wasn't connected to the people they were investigating... that doesn't mean that they weren't investigating the wrong people... he ran.. he had to have done something very wrong. his justice should've been far different (incarceration for resisting, possibly more, trial), but he fucked around during the wrong time and in the wrong place.

I can't fault the officers for what was done here, from the information given.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » July 24, 2005, 3:49 am

Fash wrote:People need to know that when you ignore police orders or run away from them, their life is in jeopardy.

Uniformed cops in England don't carry guns.

Not enough info here to know what's what, but just thought I'd add a fact I do have to hand

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 24, 2005, 9:22 am

No worries Soreali

The point being missed here by some, that was in fact raised by Zealath, is that our Police do not always carry guns, barely EVER shoot people, and NEVER shoot them for running away from them unless there really is a very clear and obvious threat.

The threat this guy posed was that he was wearing a coat.

So, and this is the general accepted opinion, Londoners now feel that leaving their house in a coat is likely to get them shot under the new secret police ruling of "shoot to kill".

As it turns out, this guy was a Brazilian that was completely innocent. Shoot to kill is a fucking stupid idea when it involves the death of innocent people, which is what happened here.

It's odd, the UK is going nuts here that it even happened, and you US folk seem to treat as if it's normal, how de-sensitized to gun related death/murder have you become?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 24, 2005, 12:07 pm

The fact that people defend this is pretty amazing. And sickening. Luckily it seems the police chief agrees with me.

An interesting point is of course that they let the guy they think has a bomb get into the subway station and onto the train.. and then when he trips, falls down and they have him down they shoot him 5 times in the head.. from behind.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » July 24, 2005, 12:13 pm

And the thing YOU are missing is that he was running, and given that the targets lately have been the Underground, and he ran into the Underground, his running away looked just like running TO, ie running TO his target before he gets caught and foiled. No, it turns out that he wasnt running to a target, but what he did looks exactly the same as running to, and the police had valid (inaccurate, but valid) reason to believe he was running to, and reacted accordingly. Tragic, but reasonable.

If youre having panic attacks over the idea of "wear a coat and get shot" then welcome to mindless hysterical sheepdom, just like the US. Another fine export! Suckers.

Personally, I think its just you.

*Hugs*
Varia

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 24, 2005, 1:00 pm

Yeah being executed at short range while down with 5 bullets is reasonable.

Wow. I feel sorry for you.

Animalor · Post by **Animalor** » July 24, 2005, 2:00 pm

What were the cops to do, stop him and then risk him going kamikazi directly on the platform taking you out with him?

Everyone in London is on edge, cops most of all.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » July 24, 2005, 2:14 pm

Was he a muslim?

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » July 24, 2005, 2:19 pm

Many of you seem to be condemning this guy to death for running. Consider you are a brown man in the UK ATM and consider:

-standard police do not carry guns
-anti-muslim extremists (more than normal)
-being approached by a gang of plain clothed dudes brandishing guns

I do not find it difficult to understand why he would run.

As to the shooting. I would agree with the shooting if they had more proof of a threat. i.e. the suspect is a known terrorist, evidence that he is carrying a bomb. As it stands the fact that he lived in an apartment building they were watching, wore a coat (the dude was from Brazil) and ran from John Does carrying guns does not justify the shooting. I might consider it valid if they were not able to subdue him, but killing him after he was subdued with no real evidence of a threat is just crazy.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » July 24, 2005, 2:31 pm

Nick wrote:No worries Soreali

The threat this guy posed was that he was wearing a coat.

So, and this is the general accepted opinion, Londoners now feel that leaving their house in a coat is likely to get them shot under the new secret police ruling of "shoot to kill".

Way to disregard all of the other information and make it seem like he was killed because of his coat.

Nick wrote:As it turns out, this guy was a Brazilian that was completely innocent. Shoot to kill is a fucking stupid idea when it involves the death of innocent people, which is what happened here.

When you and Kelshara are done making each other tie dyed shirts and love beads...maybe you can actually come back to reality.

"This is a tragedy," Commissioner Blair said of the shooting. "The Metropolitan Police accepts full responsibility for this. To the family I can only express my deep regrets."

He defended the officers' shooting to kill, saying such action only applied when lives were believed to be at risk.

"I am very aware that minority communities are talking about a shoot to kill policy; it's only a shoot to kill in order to protect policy," he said.

British police had drawn from the experience of other countries that have had to deal with suicide attackers, he said.

"It is drawn from experience from other countries, including Sri Lanka. The only way to deal with this is to shoot to the head," Blair said. "There is no point in shooting at someone's chest because that is where the bomb is likely to be," Blair said.

Blair spoke of the problem his officers faced.

"What we have got to recognize is that people are taking incredibly difficult fast-time decisions in life threatening situations," he said. "... What's most important to recognize is that it's still happening out there. There are still officers out there having to make those calls as we speak."

Really...put yourself in the shoes of the policemen and look at the facts. Wrong person dead? Yes...and that is a tragedy. Police did everything right with regards to the actions and information they had??? Yes. Open season on brown people in London as far as the police are concerned? No...but you seem to think the opposite...and that is why you are not only dead wrong but also a complete moron with zero common sense.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » July 24, 2005, 2:37 pm

My compliments to the shooters. Historically Brits have been lousy marksmen. 5 to the head even at close range is admirable.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 24, 2005, 3:23 pm

Metanis wrote:My compliments to the shooters. Historically Brits have been lousy marksmen. 5 to the head even at close range is admirable.

too bad they didnt miss one and take you, and your entire gene pool, out.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 24, 2005, 7:24 pm

Wow, those are some fine ways of avoiding the issues (completely) guys.

Some of you really are stupid, stupid people.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 24, 2005, 10:39 pm

#1 glad Kelshara is not involved in protected Western Economic Viability

#2. yes it is a tragedy that this guy died. And if any of you pontifs on the internet think you are more disgusted by it than the cops who pulled the trigger, then you probably are wrong. I'm sure those guys feel terrible about it.

Sure a guy is dead and there is way to rectify that situation.

Sorry, but police have to have the latitude to make a decision in a circumstance like that

If you can't make that determination in the heat of the moment, be glad you are paid to sit in front of a computer screen 40 hours a week and surf this messageboard. The fact of the matter is that our societies depend on people who unfortunately have to make those determinations, and I for one, seriously doubt they wake up in the morning and say "i hope i fire my weapon at somebody".

the fact of the matter is these are elite law enforcement officials and they are doing their best to defend the public.

Guess what, if i'm a tourist in Israel, and Palestinians have just blown up 4 busses that week, and i'm in a hurry to catch a bus, and some guy tells me to fucking stop before i get on the bus, i'm going to stop.

That's why i'm smart enough to live a full lifespan, and this guy wasn't.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 24, 2005, 11:10 pm

Suggesting that because some people are paid to pull triggers so that I can sit here browsing the web somehow makes them above reproach is completely ridiculous.

Sanctimonius jargon, your apparant justification whereby this innocent bloke has in some way got what was coming to him is one of the (extremely rare) most absurd things I have ever heard you say in 6 years of friendship.

You are right about one thing though Voronwe, I am lucky I am not as much of a hired thug to be paid to blindly support a bent government that is more responsible for the state of London today than some random innocent Brazilian.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 24, 2005, 11:23 pm

my point is this:

do you really, honestly, think these cops wanted to kill an innocent guy the other day?

seriously?

i dont

i think they wanted to do their job, which is to protect the people of the UK. And that is a fucking hard job to do in the current operating environment. That is my only point.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » July 24, 2005, 11:44 pm

Nick wrote:Wow, those are some fine ways of avoiding the issues (completely) guys.

Some of you really are stupid, stupid people.

Perhaps there are more issues here than just your pet one?...
And then you use the word sanctimonious...

*Hugs*
Varia

Thess · Post by **Thess** » July 25, 2005, 12:34 am

I have to say that I do not believe that the police woke up that morning and said, "I want to kill some innocent person!!!"

I agree with Voronwe, this guy deserves a darwin award.

Tyek · Post by **Tyek** » July 25, 2005, 4:41 am

With the rash of suicide bombings all over the world, the man's actions probably were not the wisest ones. He did not deserve to be killed, but he also did not help the police with his choices. I would bet the police involved feel horrible.

Nick, you need to be angry with the real killers here, the terrorists. These people hide behind a religion they honestly do not really represent. There is no religion that condones the blind killing of innocent people. Real Muslims do not do these things.

These are people who have one goal in mind. Kill anyone who does submit to their thinking. They will attack us while we are in Iraq and after we leave. They are the worst kind of people, fanatics that hide behind ignorant people, controling them and using them to spread their fear.

Until they stop, things like this are going to happen. the police needed to decide if one person should die or possibly hundreds and had to make a quick decision. We are fighting against an opponent (I am not talking about Iraq) with no regard for human life and so innocents are going to die. Sad but true.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 25, 2005, 5:34 am

the whole ordeal is just an unfortunate accident in my opinion. we haven't heard the whole story yet though.

you have a guy who leaves for the subways from a house the authorities were watching. why was scotland yard keeping an eye on the house? why was the guy wearing a heavy coat in july in london on a day that was pretty fucking muggy and hot? why did he run when being flagged down? maybe he legitimately had no idea and thought it was just a bunch of civilians chasing after him because he was brown so he was running for help. I doubt it though. if they identified themselves as police and he was in a public area with other people around, he should have stopped.

the police aren't in the habit of shooting people in the process of arresting them, but you have to handle suicide bombers differently than your average criminal. they are wearing a fucking belt bomb with the intent on blowing themselves up and martyrizing themselves. they aren't going to allow themselves to be arrested. if he was struggling and put his hands where he should be putting them, I don't blame a cop for emptying his gun into him. this is why you always comply with the police regardless of your guild or innocence and sort it out later .

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » July 25, 2005, 9:07 am

kyoukan wrote:the whole ordeal is just an unfortunate accident in my opinion. we haven't heard the whole story yet though.

you have a guy who leaves for the subways from a house the authorities were watching. why was scotland yard keeping an eye on the house? why was the guy wearing a heavy coat in july in london on a day that was pretty fucking muggy and hot? why did he run when being flagged down? maybe he legitimately had no idea and thought it was just a bunch of civilians chasing after him because he was brown so he was running for help. I doubt it though. if they identified themselves as police and he was in a public area with other people around, he should have stopped.

the police aren't in the habit of shooting people in the process of arresting them, but you have to handle suicide bombers differently than your average criminal. they are wearing a fucking belt bomb with the intent on blowing themselves up and martyrizing themselves. they aren't going to allow themselves to be arrested. if he was struggling and put his hands where he should be putting them, I don't blame a cop for emptying his gun into him. this is why you always comply with the police regardless of your guild or innocence and sort it out later .

Must be chilly in Hell, I'm in agreement with kyoukan!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 25, 2005, 9:32 am

definitely comply with police regardless of guild!!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 25, 2005, 9:42 am

Voronwë wrote:my point is this:

do you really, honestly, think these cops wanted to kill an innocent guy the other day?

seriously?

i dont

Nope. But neither does your average drunk driver, guy who runs a red light, fall asleep by the wheel working two jobs trying to feed his family etc. It not being premeditated doesn't absovle you of responsibility.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » July 25, 2005, 11:14 am

Kelshara wrote:
Voronwë wrote:my point is this:

do you really, honestly, think these cops wanted to kill an innocent guy the other day?

seriously?

i dont
Nope. But neither does your average drunk driver, guy who runs a red light, fall asleep by the wheel working two jobs trying to feed his family etc. It not being premeditated doesn't absovle you of responsibility.

And being not guilty of carrying a bomb doesn't absolve this assclown of the responsibilty of not complying with and running away from the cops in the course of their duty (in an environment thats already on edge).

As others have said you have:

- cops and a public edgy because of the recent attacks
- a guy dressed in a manner that doesn't suit the weather
- the suspect heads to the scene of the previous attacks
- the suspect REFUSES to stop when instructed to by police and actually tries to run away

Now police are supposed to be trained to deal with stressful situations, but WTF are they supposed to do? let the fucking guy set off a bomb if he is what they fear? If he had a bomb under that jacket, those cops would be getting fucking medals.

I saw on some reports (BBC is supposedly the main source) that this guy was in the country on an expired student visa. Sorry but if thats the case, it was still HIS decision to break the UK's immigration policies; regardless of his visa status, it was HIS decision to run from the police; and thus in large part HIS fault he got shot because of it. Its unfortunate but don't blame the cops when some retard forces them into a decision tree that may not suit the actual crime: cops don't shoot people who comply with their instructions.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 25, 2005, 11:16 am

I don't think anyone here thinks the policeman woke up that day with the aim of shooting someone Voronwe.

I am in fact just as embittered towards the terrorists who carried out the London attacks.

Although this whole "war" assumption is highly hypocritical of what it chooses to mention and care about.

Why is there a war in the first place?

The terrorists are not the only ones who will stop at nothing to achieve "global domination".

That is a fact that gets ignored for no good reason.

Obviously this was just a bad accident, although that fact does not make it acceptable to be running around shooting unarmed people.

My "pet" issue Varia? Which in this case, as I do not have one single !"pet" one, is about how I do not agree with the concept of a shoot to kill policy, something the overwhelming majority of Britain agrees with.

Edit: Tell you what, let's now make it all justifiable to kill people who run from the police, hell lets just make it ok to shoot people even if they stop. We do live in dangerous times after all!

miir · Post by **miir** » July 25, 2005, 11:25 am

Why is everyone making mention of the coat he was wearing.

London is not exactly 'hot' in July. On friday it was something like 17 degrees. That to me, is jacket weather. Hell, look at the weather for today... rainy with a low of 13 degrees. Would you wear shorts and a tshirt in weather like that?

note: 17 is about 63 american degrees... and 13 is around 55.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » July 25, 2005, 11:36 am

63 and he was from Brazil

Btw, just curious: Isn't running from the cops here in the US considered a misdemeanor?

miir · Post by **miir** » July 25, 2005, 11:43 am

63 and he was from Brazil

It's winter in Rio and it's a chilly 75.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » July 25, 2005, 11:59 am

Latest theory states that the reason he was running was because his visa to stay in Britain was expired / void. It's sad as hell that the police made the mistake, but in the situation I don't know I wouldn't have done the same. I hope I never have to find out.