Question about the Time/NYT confidential sources issue

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » July 17, 2005, 10:14 pm

Maybe he'd better look under the fucking sofa again.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 18, 2005, 4:53 am

Dregor Thule wrote:
Metanis wrote:I wish the Democrats would put forth this intensity in nailing Osama. It's obvious to me the left views Rove as a bigger bogeyman. Total disconnect from reality on display here.
I can't believe you just fucking typed those words.

I honestly don't know how to respond to something like that either. Its the same feeling I get when someone admits to thinking that Iraq was somehow connected to 9/11 or hearing a $cientologist talk about Thetan super powers, like they are real and Tom Cruise has them. Did Osama being the democrats fault make it into O'Reily's talking points when I wasn't looking or something? Granted its a little less ludicrous than some of the right wing spin machine turd tossing I have heard in the last week, but damn....

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » July 18, 2005, 5:07 am

This is the only kind of debate style that tards like metanis know. They get it from Hannity. It's pretty easy to do (which is why they like it).

All you have to do is when you are starting to get smoked in a debate, or the entire conversation is just sailing over your head, just start accusing the other person(s) of not supporting the troops, or lamenting the fact that the democratic party doesn't gear up, grab a rifle and head into the mountains in search of bin Laden.

it doesn't matter if it is not even remotely relevant. no matter how badly you are being criticized there is always somebody, somewhere that has done something worse. you see, metanis and people like him have such small brains, that it doesn't even occur to them that most other people on the planet are smarter than them and if they would fall for such a cheap debate tactic then everyone else should too.

when you are scraping that close to the bottom of the intellectual barrel, the people on the edge of that putty knife have to believe that they can't possibly be as stupid as other people say they are, otherwise they'd have killed themselves by now.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » July 19, 2005, 1:00 am

You losers just don't get it.

Fact #1 - The investigation is NOT over. There is no report. There are no charges filed. New information is being leaked daily.

Fact #2 - Stupid liberals are going ballistic up to and including the US Senate liberal head jobs attempting to vote to strip Rove of his security clearances.

Fact #3 - Look at facts #1 and #2... can't you see the huge over-reaction by the left? You hypocritical brainwashed luddites have your panties twisted so tight your eyes are bulging. Us conservatives are simply amazed and amused at your disintegration.

Seriously guys, you really need to try a new perspective.

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » July 19, 2005, 1:17 am

Ahh, VV. The bastion of civilized debate.

In recent news, Bush announced today he would fire anyone in the White House who "committed a crime". Whether that means indicted or convicted, or who is determining what crime was committed, is up in the open.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 19, 2005, 2:53 am

Well, Met, any shred of credible debate went out the window when you parroted the "Dems need to go after Osama" statement, which is so ludicrous as to defy analysis. But consider the following:

1) Wilson's statements, Coopers statements, and the Times statements on these matters have remained constant throughout the process and there has been no factual refutation of the timetable of events they have outlined; only smear attempts on Wilson and attacks on his supposedly partisan motives. Wilson, mind you, is a republican and was praised by HW Bush during the first Iraqi crisis.

2) The statements of the Whitehouse have changed virtually daily, as facts have been leaked. This is not entirely unlike how they handled the ever changing reason for invading Iraq, but its especially bad for the Neocons because some of their assertions have been debunked literally on the same day they came out. Whether they are or not, they present the appearance of a scrambling cover up effort.

3) No one prior to Rove has held the position he has and actually had an office in the White House. I do not think that it is a stretch to assume Rove was granted his current security clearance without the standard background checks, considering Bush Sr canned his ass for the exact same sort of thing a decade ago. Revealing one person's NOC status compromises not just them, but everyone connected to them. I do not think that, given clear evidence that he discussed Plame with a member of the press, it is unreasonable to suspend his security clearance, at least temporarily until the investigation is concluded. Somehow, I don't think that Osama will slip through our grasp just because Rove can't access classified data for a couple months. Its not as if the other Neocronies wouldn't tell him whatever he wanted to know anyhow.

4) This is an educated guess on my part, but I am guessing that the original leaker is probably Bolton and the Dems probably have come to this same conclusion. Bolton was certainly in a good position and had high motivation to do so. Bolton also has also been known to leak information for political purposes in the past, which is one of the major reasons the Congressional commitee has been wanting to see files that the WH are sitting on before moving ahead with his confirmation. If Bolton is in fact the original leaker and it comes out as such, he will get torpedoed from his appointment so brutally that Bork will be a pleasant memory to the Neocons. This would be a pretty huge setback for the Bush administration and wouldn't exactly help him try and get the ultra right judges he basically has to sneak in to appease the cult of crispy people who voted him in last time. Right now, W is in a position where he has to appoint hard core right judges or the same crispies who voted him in will make sure none of the congressional GOP members get re-elected next cycle, so he needs all the momentum he can muster. The Dems (and the libertarians and moderates, for that matter) realize he is at his most vulnerable state of his entire presidency. That means this is going to be a full court press.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » July 19, 2005, 6:22 am

Metanis wrote:strip Rove of his security clearances.

I'd bet if he was military, or not in the position he is they already would have. Based on his own statements it's not unreasonable in the least. It doesn't matter where he got the information from, he should have known better than to repeat it. It was his duty to report it as well, and he didn't.

*Edit - Wouldn't surprise me at all if it was leaked by Bolton, would be in keeping with his past performances.

W can't maintain his "my way or no way" stand with mud on his or his people's face, whether true or not. They're just digging themselves deep hole right now, one that's going to be very hard to extract themselves from. If it keeps Bolton out of the UN, and loonies off the supreme court, fine by me.

The episode of the jizz stained dress is coming back to haunt them. We had more important things to be concerned about then too.

I'm far from liberal, this administration makes me very nervous.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 19, 2005, 9:03 am

Jice Virago wrote:
1) Wilson's statements, Coopers statements, and the Times statements on these matters have remained constant throughout the process and there has been no factual refutation of the timetable of events they have outlined; only smear attempts on Wilson and attacks on his supposedly partisan motives.

So far there has been a lot of smearing from both sides and nothing more than a big load of bullshit to show for it. First of all, Rove was not the original leaker and got the info himself from a journalist.....which means the information might as well have been public record as far as he could be proven to know. The liberals are not going to stop pushing this until the originator of the leak is found. At this time, there is no point in speculating as it could have been done by either side for political reasons.

This would be a pretty huge setback for the Bush administration and wouldn't exactly help him try and get the ultra right judges he basically has to sneak in to appease the cult of crispy people who voted him in last time. Right now, W is in a position where he has to appoint hard core right judges or the same crispies who voted him in will make sure none of the congressional GOP members get re-elected next cycle, so he needs all the momentum he can muster. .

And this is why I am not holding my breath that it was definitely a righty that leaked it. The liberals are just as underhanded as the righties and are definitely in a position where they are desperate to get some footing.

The real problem is that we need less liberals in the Supreme Court and less ultra conservatives. The only political leanings we need anywhere in power of any type right now are moderate conservatives like O'Connor. The only hope we have is that Renqhuist dies and O'Connor unretires to take over as chief justice and they replace that moron with someone just like Sandy.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 19, 2005, 10:43 am

Still a lot of vagueries out there.

One thing though, even if Rove and Libby got the information about Valerie Plame from a journalist, it is still extremely irresponsible for them to 1. verify that that is true to a journalist or 2. comment in any way shape or form on a CIA officer's status to somebody without security clearance.

Bush has of course completely backed off of his previous statements where anybody involved in the leak could be fired. So he has parodied himself once again. Thank god for The Daily Show. It has been so funny lately (outside of that Samantha Bee segment last night...)

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » July 19, 2005, 10:47 am

Is it any more irresponsible to verify it than it is to take that info and put it into print for everyone in the world to see?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 19, 2005, 11:23 am

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Is it any more irresponsible to verify it than it is to take that info and put it into print for everyone in the world to see?

if you work for the Executive Branch of the Federal Government, yes you have a higher level of responsibility to protect classified information than a private citizen does. Absolutely. That is completely irrefutable.

that is why the Federal government does not issue SECURITY CLEARANCES to persons who work for newspapers.

Frank Rich wrote an editorial in the NYTimes a couple of days ago, that is kind of interesting. he is obviously a very liberal commentator, but i thought the imagery was interesting.

Next to White House courtiers of their rank, Mr. Wilson is at most a Rosencrantz or Guildenstern. The brief against the administration's drumbeat for war would be just as damning if he'd never gone to Africa. But by overreacting in panic to his single Op-Ed piece of two years ago, the White House has opened a Pandora's box it can't slam shut. Seasoned audiences of presidential scandal know that there's only one certainty ahead: the timing of a Karl Rove resignation. As always in this genre, the knight takes the fall at exactly that moment when it's essential to protect the king.

I'm not convinced at all though that Rove was "the" leak, or just a repeater of the leak, at this point. I'd also be surprised if he lost his job (or Scooter Libbey for that matter).

I think it is clear at this point that Rove was "invovled" in the leak, and meets the criteria for dismissal as established by Mr. Bush some 2 years ago, but like his justification for war, apparently those criteria can be retroactively changed as well.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 19, 2005, 12:08 pm

one more tidbit that is interesting to me:

Who knows if outing Valerie Plame is a big deal. But Valerie Plame was outed by the White House, and this led to the disclosure of her "Non Official Cover" employer Brewster Jennings (because her 1999 campaign contribution lists that as her employer). That company in Boston is a fake company. {NPR story on "The fragile mosaic of CIA cover"}

So any other CIA operative who has ties with Brewster Jennings has now been exposed. Is this a big deal? we certainly don't know here at VV!! =)

maybe the Valerie Plame situation in and of itself is not a big deal. But the CIA is not going to let the administration continue to use it as "the fall guy" for its fuckups - especially since the CIA told the administration that the Africa/Iraq uranium connection was dubious.

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 19, 2005, 7:49 pm

...which is where this all really leads back to in the first place.

Even the administration admitted it knew the Nigeria stuff was BS before the state of the union speech where W made a big deal out of it. I really think they believed Wilson would tow the party line when they sent him there and overreacted vengefully when he didn't, which is something Bolton has a well known history for as well as having access to the information in question. This is why I think Bolton was probably the original leak, but if its not him its deffinitely Libby. Rove's role is one of spin management, so I think he probably was not in the loop on this until it came time to try and cover it up.

It all comes down to who Bush wants to keep more, Bolton or Rove. If he has Rove fall on his sword, then he can probably press Bolton through without burning much more political capitol. If he wants to keep Rove (the more likely scenario in my mind) then he is probably not going to be able to press Bolton through the filibuster cock block without his own party breaking ranks over the deal. Neither scenario sets him up well for what will have to be (in order to keep the crispy block voting GOP) ultra right SCOTUS appointments.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » July 20, 2005, 1:29 am

Jice, why do you keep saying "the administration expected Wilson to tow the party line?" The administration didn't even KNOW Wilson until he published his op-ed in the NY Times.

Here's the Senate Intelligence Report, if you're as interested in this subject as you seem to be, you should read it.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/li ... ter2-b.htm

To quote from it (blank spots are where words were blacked out):

( )Officials from the CIA's DO Counterproliferation Division (CPD) told Committee staff that in response to questions from the Vice President's Office and the Departments of State and Defense on the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal, CPD officials discussed ways to obtain additional information. who could make immediate inquiries into the reporting, CPD decided to contact a former ambassador to Gabon who had a posting early in his career in Niger.

Some CPD officials could not recall how the office decided to contact the former ambassador, however, interviews and documents provided to the Committee indicate that his wife, a CPD employee, suggested his name for the trip. The CPD reports officer told Committee staff that the former ambassador's wife "offered up his name" and a memorandum to the Deputy Chief of the CPD on February 12, 2002, from the former ambassador's wife says, "my husband has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." This was just one day before CPD sent a cable DELETED requesting concurrence with CPD's idea to send the former ambassador to Niger and requesting any additional information from the foreign government service on their uranium reports. The former ambassador's wife told Committee staff that when CPD decided it would like to send the former ambassador to Niger, she approached her husband on behalf of the CIA and told him "there's this crazy report" on a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq.

The administration appears to have had nothing to do with picking Wilson.

Furthermore, to quote from the report:

(U) Because CIA analysts did not believe that the report added any new information to clarify the issue, they did not use the report to produce any further analytical products or highlight the report for policymakers. For the same reason, CIA's briefer did not brief the Vice President on the report, despite the Vice President's previous questions about the issue.

The report was so inconsequential and inconclusive that they didn't even TELL the VP about it. Wilson has tried to act like his report somehow destroyed the notion that Iraq had ever tried to get uranium for Niger, but it wasn't even important enough to mention to the VP.

And one thing some of you seem to be forgetting is that it's entirely possible Rove and Libby had no idea that the CIA was trying to keep Plame's identity a secret (assuming they were still trying to at the time). Wilson himself admitted that his wife wasn't undercover at that time, for all Rove and Libby knew she was just some CIA WMD analyst who had a desk job at Langley (which she actually did at that time).

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » July 20, 2005, 2:01 am

No matter who originally suggested Wilson, and for the record I am certain his wife did in fact recommend him, he was approved by the VP office. I sure as fuck hope they knew who he was. He donated money to their campaigns and got Bush Srs praise during Oil Wars 1. Are you honestly claiming that Cheney's office approved someone they had no fucking clue who they were to look into WMD matters relating to Iraq with mere months to go before the invasion?

On the matter of not knowing Plame was CIA NOC, have you seen the fucking Face the Nation broadcast from this past weekend? Is it even relevant given that Coopers emails (and Roves own statements) have him discussion her in connection with Wilsons Nigeria report? Intentional or not, everyone in that front company had their cover fucked by this. People who fuck up with their security clearance get it yanked when shit like this happens. The fact that Rove is rocking Ws cock across his lips like a cuban cigar is the only reason that he hasn't been tossed out to put this fire out.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » July 20, 2005, 2:11 am

Jice Virago wrote:No matter who originally suggested Wilson, and for the record I am certain his wife did in fact recommend him, he was approved by the VP office. I sure as fuck hope they knew who he was. He donated money to their campaigns and got Bush Srs praise during Oil Wars 1. Are you honestly claiming that Cheney's office approved someone they had no fucking clue who they were to look into WMD matters relating to Iraq with mere months to go before the invasion?

Cheney's office had nothing to do with approving him, did you read that I quoted?

( )Officials from the CIA's DO Counterproliferation Division (CPD) told Committee staff that in response to questions from the Vice President's Office and the Departments of State and Defense on the alleged Iraq-Niger uranium deal, CPD officials discussed ways to obtain additional information. who could make immediate inquiries into the reporting, CPD decided to contact a former ambassador to Gabon who had a posting early in his career in Niger.

The ONLY hand the VP's office had in it was that they asked questions concerning Iraq and uranium from Niger. Cheney's office didn't have the idea to send someone over to Niger to check it out- the CPD did, in RESPONSE to the VP's questions, as well as the Departments of State's and Defense's. Cheney's office wasn't even BRIEFED on the report. What are you basing it on that the VP's office "approved" him? It might be something I haven't read, but I haven't seen that.

Jice Virago wrote:On the matter of not knowing Plame was CIA NOC, have you seen the fucking Face the Nation broadcast from this past weekend? Is it even relevant given that Coopers emails (and Roves own statements) have him discussion her in connection with Wilsons Nigeria report? Intentional or not, everyone in that front company had their cover fucked by this. People who fuck up with their security clearance get it yanked when shit like this happens. The fact that Rove is rocking Ws cock across his lips like a cuban cigar is the only reason that he hasn't been tossed out to put this fire out.

It's very relevant as to whether Rove knew she was a NOC or not- not only relevant in whether he broke a law or not, but also morally and it directly relates to the suggestion that he should have his security clearance revoked. If he knew that she was a NOC yet still threw her name around (even if he learned of her from a reporter, not from classified information), it backs up the argument that he should have it revoked. If, however, he didn't know and he thought she was just a normal CIA analyst with a deskjob, it takes away from the argument.

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » July 20, 2005, 3:20 am

Brotha wrote:It's very relevant as to whether Rove knew she was a NOC or not- not only relevant in whether he broke a law or not, but also morally and it directly relates to the suggestion that he should have his security clearance revoked. If he knew that she was a NOC yet still threw her name around (even if he learned of her from a reporter, not from classified information), it backs up the argument that he should have it revoked. If, however, he didn't know and he thought she was just a normal CIA analyst with a deskjob, it takes away from the argument.

The always popular incompetence defence.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » July 20, 2005, 10:31 am

sure its possible Karl Rove didnt know, but he sure doesnt seem like the kind of guy who makes uncalculated political maneuvers. The guy is the political genious of our time.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » July 20, 2005, 11:50 am

Brotha wrote:It's very relevant as to whether Rove knew she was a NOC or not- not only relevant in whether he broke a law or not, but also morally and it directly relates to the suggestion that he should have his security clearance revoked. If he knew that she was a NOC yet still threw her name around (even if he learned of her from a reporter, not from classified information), it backs up the argument that he should have it revoked. If, however, he didn't know and he thought she was just a normal CIA analyst with a deskjob, it takes away from the argument.

It doesn't matter, careless disregard for information that could reasonably believed to have been classified is more than reason enough to pull his clearance, at a minumum while the investigation is ongoing. Ignorance isn't an excuse. If you don't know for certain something isn't classified, you don't say anything.

You're talking about an area that you've no clue whatsoever about. At the first serious question that has anything to do with someone's actions, intergity, etc.. clearances are routinely pulled. While you may get it back later they don't, or aren't supposed to take any chances at all.

From looking at his past history, he never should have recieved another clearance. And wouldn't have if he was in any other position.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » July 20, 2005, 6:14 pm

Voronwe is a covert CIA operative.

Sorry Voro.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » July 20, 2005, 11:55 pm

Wow! Talk about your basic case of the tail wagging the dog.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01554.html

The author continues a tradition of bashing the administration and then uses poll results as his evidence. They call this a positive feedback loop.

Yes, I'm partisan but I ask you to read the article with an eye toward indentifying the utter lack of concrete proof. Then note how the author uses poll results to provide the only substantiation for his case. Poll results that are skewed because the American people are being hammered with this same kind of accusatory reporting on a daily basis. This is classic liberal bias and manipulaton.

Now contrast that story with this one...

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent ... 535b7.html

The bias is much more honest and direct. This 2nd author isn't insulting our intelligence.

Maybe this is the reason the left is losing steadily... they can't even lie convincingly anymore.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » July 21, 2005, 12:15 am

It's like a car crash, I know I shouldn't look, but I just have to.......

Animale · Post by **Animale** » September 30, 2005, 11:09 am

Well, we now have most of the story here. The "final" source on this was V.P. Cheney's CHIEF OF STAFF. That's about as high up as you can go in the administration without actually being one of the bigwigs.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/30/ ... index.html

I still had some thoughts that this could have been leaked accidentally and without forethought, but the fact that it came from the head man in the V.P.'s office erased them. I can understand that Karl Rove is a loose-lipped fool, but a chief of staff knows better. This leads me to one conclusion: Valerie Plame's position as a CIA operative was purposefully "leaked" by the administration. The purpose I can only speculate on, but all signs point to her husband's opposition to the Iraqi Uranium claim of the administration.

Now the ball is firmly in the President's court to clean house on this issue. If Rove, Libby, and any others involved in this remain in the administration we have to conclude that this went ALL the way to the top, and then it is time to hold the President personally responsible for this leak. That means that he knowingly had others break the law to attempt and cover up an inconsistency in his policy directions - which in my mind is a VERY impeachable offense.

Hopefully this bothers others as much as it bothers me. Our apathetic country needs a wakeup call to the excesses of the administration, perhaps this can serve as one... or maybe people will just continue to think that everything is hunky doory and everything was done with the best intents in mind.

Gah, now I'm getting apathetic...

Animale

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 17, 2006, 11:55 pm

Metanis wrote:I know it will be tough for you rocky Rove bashers, but step back and ask yourself why Judith Miller refuses to testify!

Rove released every reporter from confidentiality agreements! You know damn well the New York Times hates Rove's guts. So why does Ms. Miller sit in jail protecting a source that doesn't need protection?

Listen up you leftist loony liberal lightweights...

... there's more to the story yet to unfold!

I'm predicting Rove has the last laugh.

Karl Rove Laughs Last
Why his non-indictment is such good news for the White House.
by Fred Barnes
06/26/2006, Volume 011, Issue 39

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » June 18, 2006, 12:03 am

Laugh, nice article, and I quote the opening sentence: "THE LEFTIES AND THE MEDIA are right about Karl Rove."

So, despite being IN the fucking media, this opinion columnist is slanging off at the media and "lefties" in his opening. Nice.

Could you possibly find a more slanted source? Perhaps a local version of the old Pravda?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 18, 2006, 12:11 am

Yeah it's great news when the Presidents main advisor narrowly avoids breaking the law, morons rejoice.

Xyun · Post by **Xyun** » June 18, 2006, 12:14 am

He didn't avoid breaking the law, he avoided getting caught.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 18, 2006, 12:17 am

omg even better red states rejoice