Forbes on Immigration and Visa Policy

What do you think about the world?
Post Reply
Chmee
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 942
Joined: July 7, 2002, 11:13 pm

Forbes on Immigration and Visa Policy

Post by Chmee »

http://www.forbes.com/free_forbes/2005/ ... newsletter

Steve Forbes has some pretty good comments on immigration and Visa Policies.
Asinine Way to Treat Ultimate Asset:

People The Bush administration is doing the economy long term harm by not reforming our post-9/11 immigration and visa policies. Since the terrorist attacks, foreigners have had to go through considerably more hassle to enter this country. No one is arguing about the mortal necessity of tightening our screening procedures. But it defies belief that this, the most technologically advanced of nations, can't come up with software and hardware to expeditiously assist in determining who should and should not gain entrée. Despite the weak dollar, the number of visitors from overseas during the past three years is down 23%. International conventions and seminars are not taking place in the U.S. because organizers can't be sure their delegates will be allowed into the country. More alarmingly, foreign students are increasingly turning to non-U.S. universities. Australia, Canada and other nations have been effectively luring these students by assuring them that if they qualify, they won't have to undergo repeated, humiliating hassles at their borders. By contrast, foreign students now in the U.S. know that when they go home for summer vacation or holidays, their probability of returning to school is no sure thing. Unless wannabe visitors to the U.S. are from one of 27 visa-free countries, they are required to pay a $100 application fee for a visa. This fee is not refunded if an application is denied. To add insult to injury, the "30-day" processing time for a visa can turn into months. Our high-tech companies are vitally dependent on immigrant brainpower. Our schools are not turning out the numbers of American scientists and technologists that we so badly need. In years past most foreign-born graduate students remained in the U.S. after completing their studies. Now they are in a minority--a declining one at that. Technology guru George Gilder has not-so-facetiously suggested that when overseas graduate students complete their studies here, green cards should be embossed on their diplomas. Thankfully we may avoid making the situation infinitely worse. The U.S. appears poised to back down from its demand that by. Oct. 26 any new passports issued by the nations that make up the Visa-Waiver Program be biometric in order for their citizens to enter this country. Congressional leaders had indicated that this deadline--already pushed back once--would not be extended again. The affected countries have been making good-faith efforts to comply, but only about half of them would be able to meet this deadline. Not surprisingly, the European Union has been threatening to give U.S. visitors a rougher time if we don't ease the time limit again: It looks as though the U.S. may be willing to accept digitally scanned photographs instead of biometric chips. This could still adversely affect many potential visitors from Italy and France, which use laminated photos that don't meet digital standards. A more immediate problem concerns H-1B visas, which allow companies here to hire immigrants with critical high-tech skills. These folks can work in the U.S. for a maximum of six years. Last year the quota for these special visas was filled in six months. High-tech outfits are continually frustrated by their inability to bring in people who can help them compete and grow. So why not raise the quota--or better yet--scrap it altogether? We are gratuitously hurting ourselves--competitively and diplomatically--at a time when South Korea, India, China and others are rapidly ramping up their high-tech efforts to surpass the U.S.

Pretty much dead on. Although some additional security post 9/11 was pretty much inevitable, discouraging bright capable people of coming here to learn and work is pretty stupid.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

– Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

But deyr takin ar jobs!
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Seebs
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1158
Joined: June 5, 2003, 3:00 pm
Gender: Male

Post by Seebs »

Best part of all this is we finally know the true age of Dominican Baseball prospects.

That alone makes this a success.
Seeber
looking for a WOW server
User avatar
Marbus
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2378
Joined: July 4, 2002, 2:21 am
Contact:

Post by Marbus »

Amen Brother Steve... preach it!
Image
Sueven
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3200
Joined: July 22, 2002, 12:36 pm

Post by Sueven »

The H-1B visa thing is a big issue right now. There's a lot of opposition to raising the cap among the general public. Unfortunately, the general public has come to view foreigners generally, immigrants specifically, and illegal immigrants most specifically, as a boogeyman responsible for all of our problems. Many, many Americans are up in arms writing their Congressmen because these H-1B workers are going to come over and steal high-tech jobs that Americans should have.

They fail to realize that, often, there simply aren't enough qualified Americans to fill these jobs. Just because someone has a degree in CS or IT from a little state school or an unknown private school does not mean that they're qualified to do the work that many of these visa workers are doing. (It also doesn't mean they're unqualified, I don't mean to denigrate non-name schools. But it's certain that many people who graduate with these degrees are not fit to use them.)

The other migrant worker visa (H-2B's, I think) have also been a problem. If I'm thinking of the right visa, these allow unskilled workers to come in and work landscaping and similar jobs. These visas are vitally important to the landscaping / yard work / construction companies that use them, but the general public opposes them as well, because the general population ignorantly opposes anything that would allow more hispanics into our country (especially if they might not speak english!!!).
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

Because Americans are lining up to fill these shitty landscaping jobs!
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

heh as somebody who is going through the H1-B (company sponsored) process right now I sure know how crappy this is. I am the only person in the world (yes world, small company but with a LOT of large clients world wide) trained to do my job. If my visa does not go through the company is in serious trouble.

I also can verify the studend and tourist view of things. I know for a fact that student organizations back home now discourage students to study here due to the process. The changing of passports every 6 months (hell my passport is 2 steps behind and it is less than 2 years old, theoretically I could be denied entrance now because of it), the whole having to come to the embassy for an interview and the extreme lenght of application processes make people who would have come here (and spent a lot of needed money here) go elsewhere.

I had some dealings with the International Student Office at my old university and they had seen a rapid decline in international students. And that has continued.
User avatar
Seebs
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1158
Joined: June 5, 2003, 3:00 pm
Gender: Male

Post by Seebs »

I have three co-workers effected. One from the Bahamas, one from New Zealand and one from Jordan. All married in the US and all have advanced degrees.

The hoops they have to go through (must drive to Memphis for some appointments) is crazy.

Many of Forbes' ideas I like (flat tax) I just wish he didn't look like he was poisioned with Dioxin.
Seeber
looking for a WOW server
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

A flat tax is viable, but I'd prefer a national sales tax. 25% on everything everyone buys, no exceptions other than groceries.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Seebs
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1158
Joined: June 5, 2003, 3:00 pm
Gender: Male

Post by Seebs »

Arkansas still taxes groceries and clothes.

Fuckers.
Seeber
looking for a WOW server
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

Seebs wrote:Arkansas still taxes groceries and clothes.

Fuckers.
You can't give the poor a break in a state where everyone is poor. :twisted:
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
User avatar
Niffoni
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1318
Joined: February 18, 2003, 12:53 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Post by Niffoni »

At least you guys know where you're tax money's going... Shady deals with big oil and weapons of mass destruction.

We canadians don't have a fucking CLUE where our money went.
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all. - Douglas Adams
User avatar
Seebs
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1158
Joined: June 5, 2003, 3:00 pm
Gender: Male

Post by Seebs »

Waltons - Not Poor
Rockefellers - Not Poor
Dillards - Not Poor
Murphy Oil - Not Poor
Jerry Jones - not Poor
Tyson Chicken - Not Poor
Marbus - Not Poor


The rest of us ... kinda poor
Seeber
looking for a WOW server
Wulfran
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1454
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Location: Lost...

Post by Wulfran »

Niffoni wrote:We canadians don't have a fucking CLUE where our money went.
Yes we do: into the hands of Liberal party cronies who funneled some of it back into the party coffers and shared their windfalls with their buddies like Jean, Paul and Alfonso...
Wulfran Moondancer
Stupid Sidekick of the Lambent Dorf
Petitioner to Club Bok Bok
Founding Member of the Barbarian Nation Movement
User avatar
Niffoni
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 1318
Joined: February 18, 2003, 12:53 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia

Post by Niffoni »

Wulfran wrote:
Niffoni wrote:We canadians don't have a fucking CLUE where our money went.
Yes we do: into the hands of Liberal party cronies who funneled some of it back into the party coffers and shared their windfalls with their buddies like Jean, Paul and Alfonso...
Yes, but we don't know ALL of their names :twisted:
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all. - Douglas Adams
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

if any of you think for one minute that the households that make $30-40K (which is a lot of people) can take a 25% tax on all consumer goods you are so fucking high on crack it is ridiculous.

persons who have a fair amount of cash to invest will reap HUGE rewards from national sales ("fair") tax. I would fucking max my credit cards investing for gods sake!! i dont think it is necessarily a bad thing to have low taxes on investment income. Its important to incentivize investing. But a 25% sales tax accross the board would be a massive tax hike on lower income families, whose effective income tax burden is probably below 10%.

I'm totally speculating with my numbers, but i am really skeptical of that being anything other than a continued shifting of the tax burden to lower income households.
User avatar
Kilmoll the Sexy
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 5295
Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:31 pm
Gender: Male
XBL Gamertag: bunkeru2k
Location: Ohio

Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

I don't think most Americans have any problems with people who immigrate or come here for school or on work visas. We have problems with illegal aliens who come here and reap benefits without paying taxes at all and do not speak English or follow the laws. There are no repurcussions at all on them....they get deported and 2 weeks later they are hopping the border again.
Lynks
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2774
Joined: September 30, 2002, 6:58 pm
XBL Gamertag: launchpad1979
Location: Sudbury, Ontario

Post by Lynks »

Niffoni wrote:
Wulfran wrote:
Niffoni wrote:We canadians don't have a fucking CLUE where our money went.
Yes we do: into the hands of Liberal party cronies who funneled some of it back into the party coffers and shared their windfalls with their buddies like Jean, Paul and Alfonso...
Yes, but we don't know ALL of their names :twisted:
LOL! :lol:
User avatar
Kelshara
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 4176
Joined: November 18, 2002, 10:44 am
Location: Norway

Post by Kelshara »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:I don't think most Americans have any problems with people who immigrate or come here for school or on work visas. We have problems with illegal aliens who come here and reap benefits without paying taxes at all and do not speak English or follow the laws. There are no repurcussions at all on them....they get deported and 2 weeks later they are hopping the border again.
Of course the annoying part is that for companies that do it the legal way (like my company) it seems a lot harder than to do it illegally.. Friggin stupid.
User avatar
Marbus
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2378
Joined: July 4, 2002, 2:21 am
Contact:

Post by Marbus »

You left one off Seebs...

Seebs... not poor

He's got a bigger house in a snazzy development but that's because he's got the personal financial smarts and I got the business financial smarts... dumb that luck!

Marb
Image
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

Voronwë wrote:if any of you think for one minute that the households that make $30-40K (which is a lot of people) can take a 25% tax on all consumer goods you are so fucking high on crack it is ridiculous.

persons who have a fair amount of cash to invest will reap HUGE rewards from national sales ("fair") tax. I would fucking max my credit cards investing for gods sake!! i dont think it is necessarily a bad thing to have low taxes on investment income. Its important to incentivize investing. But a 25% sales tax accross the board would be a massive tax hike on lower income families, whose effective income tax burden is probably below 10%.

I'm totally speculating with my numbers, but i am really skeptical of that being anything other than a continued shifting of the tax burden to lower income households.
Hmm, valid point about investment income. I suppose capital gains taxes and such would require special handling, just like they do now.

Also note, that poor families would NOT be paying taxes on groceries, ect. that they aren't paying taxes on now. If the people in the projects could no longer afford their Lincoln Navigators, Cadillac Escalades, ect., well, that would just break my heart :roll:
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
Sueven
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 3200
Joined: July 22, 2002, 12:36 pm

Post by Sueven »

Also note, that poor families would NOT be paying taxes on groceries, ect. that they aren't paying taxes on now. If the people in the projects could no longer afford their Lincoln Navigators, Cadillac Escalades, ect., well, that would just break my heart Rolling Eyes
?

I think you have a flawed view of the projects.

I sort of live in the projects (my apartment building is surrounded on two sides by section 8 low-income housing). Most people don't have cars. The drug dealers only have beat-up old '80's Caprice Classics and Crown Vic's.
User avatar
kyoukan
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8548
Joined: July 5, 2002, 3:33 am
Location: Vancouver

Post by kyoukan »

masteen's experience with poverty in inner cities begins and ends with 50 cent videos.
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

I drive past 2 of the 3 projects here everyday, though calling anything in the keys "inner city" is funny.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
Voronwë
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 7176
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:57 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Voronwë »

as asserted above those who live in projects and can afford high end consumer items (Escalades - which i've never seen anything like each day when i drive through the projects), would buy it on the black market anyway, so the taxes would not be effected.

I would say that lower income people who put $5K on a $500 car definitely exist, and they are as likely to be latino as white as black where i live. Those people probably would have a harder time buying rims for their 1985 Civic.

Another concern I would have, is how would that type of tax effect big ticket items? The only kind of Televisions that are still manufactured in the US are high end sets, that cost thousands of dollars. If you throw a 25% tax on items like that, how will their sales be impacted?

i have no doubt that many advocates of a "fair tax" know a lot more about economics than I do, but there are some adverse effects of making consumer goods more expensive to the masses.
User avatar
Pherr the Dorf
Way too much time!
Way too much time!
Posts: 2913
Joined: January 31, 2003, 9:30 pm
Gender: Male
Location: Sonoma County Calimifornia

Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Flat Tax... kinda funny, and that will do great things because the rich don't get richer in general (ie. they can't spend all their money every damn year) and the middle and lower classes always manage to get by, but rarely can save...
Flat Tax :lol:
The first duty of a patriot is to question the government

Jefferson
User avatar
masteen
Super Poster!
Super Poster!
Posts: 8197
Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:40 pm
Gender: Mangina
Location: Florida
Contact:

Post by masteen »

Voronwë wrote:Another concern I would have, is how would that type of tax effect big ticket items? The only kind of Televisions that are still manufactured in the US are high end sets, that cost thousands of dollars. If you throw a 25% tax on items like that, how will their sales be impacted?

i have no doubt that many advocates of a "fair tax" know a lot more about economics than I do, but there are some adverse effects of making consumer goods more expensive to the masses.
Hypothetically, sales of shit like that wouldn't be affected too much, as people would have a proportionate amount of disposable income more as we wouldn't be paying FICA, just SS/Medicare.

I think that there would still need to be luxury taxes charged on yachts, Bentleys, ect. above the national sales tax.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
VariaVespasa
Almost 1337
Almost 1337
Posts: 903
Joined: July 4, 2002, 10:13 pm
Location: Vancouver BC
Contact:

Post by VariaVespasa »

Pherr the Dorf wrote:Flat Tax... kinda funny, and that will do great things because the rich don't get richer in general (ie. they can't spend all their money every damn year) and the middle and lower classes always manage to get by, but rarely can save...
Flat Tax :lol:
Oh the rich can spend all their cash every year if they want to (Michael Jackson forinstance, who spends more than his money every year), what makes a lot of them rich in the first place is that they dont spend it every year, or if they do they spend a lot of it on property or other investments, which wouldnt have flat tax issues.

A lot of the new generation of millionaires are becoming millionaires by responsible finances rather than huge paychecks too. Some have managed their lifestyle to get to the point where they dont have the same level of expenses that poorer people do. For example, I own my apartment outright. That means while poorer people rent for 7-800 dollars a month, I only pay 250 a month for maintenance, and about 70 a month for property taxes, and as a result I have over 400 dollars a month more to play with than a renter. Even when I had a mortgage I was only spending about 100 bucks more than a renter per month, and I wound up with a valuable asset and a cheaper lifestyle while renters are still paying their 750 a month. Once you get stable in your life (job, relationship etc) its very well worth doing whatever you need to to buy your own place- live in a dump, cycle to work and eat KD for 2 years, whatever you gotta do. 20 years later when youre holding your mortgage discharge papers in your hands you'll know it was worth it.

A lot of that style of millionaire wind up spending less on clothing and furniture etc too. They buy higher quality stuff that costs double or more what the poorer people buy. But 5 years later theyre still wearing the same shoes, while the poorer person has replaced theirs twice already, thus having spent 50% more than the rich guy already on shoes, with no end in sight. I dont think I have a friend who has a couch that has lasted more than 4 years. Mine is 11 years old and going strong. My dads leather armchair is 8 years old and pristine despite daily use. My mothers is still pristine after 6 years of daily use, including almost constant use in the 6th year during her final illness. The family diningroom table is over 30 years old now. Mine is 8 and I fully expect it to outlast me. And so on, around the house. Quality costs more up front, but it lasts and lasts and lasts, if properly maintained, and winds up saving you money, making you richer. Thats not a universal rule, it doesnt apply to every category of product, especially electronics. But its certainly common enough that its worth carefully considering when making non-food, non-toy purchases.

So a flat tax will actually tend to affect the careful rich less than the poor in the long run, for that portion of their cash that they do spend, in addition to the untaxed/lesser taxed cash they invest. Of course the flaunt-it, must-have-every-years-new-toys/styles rich will take it in the teeth, which is probably as it should be for them. But overall it would seem to shift more of the tax burden to the people who can least afford it already.

*Hugs*
Varia
Post Reply