"In perpetuity"

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 18, 2005, 5:20 pm

Apparantly that is just too difficult to grasp for some.

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » June 18, 2005, 5:21 pm

Arborealus,

If you are in fact writing your political figures with your views, I applaude you.

NOt that you were seeking it, but I have much respect for your posts now.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 18, 2005, 6:06 pm

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote: The one thing that seperates these 'detainees' from regular prisoners in a US jail is that the Gitmo folks haven't been sentenced and probably never will be.

Of all the things that piss me off about the War On Terror, this is one of the biggest. If we - and by we, I mean the entire western world - are to win this thing, then we have to be BETTER THAN THE TERRORISTS. We have to prove that our way works. That it makes sense. That it is humane, loving, caring, sensible. That it provides a better life for people.

This isn't done by creating a gulag and leaving random people with dark sin there to rot without due (or indeed any) process.

The same thing would happen in any war though Drolgin, this isn't a special set of circumstances just for Iraq. It happens in every single conflict/war. Why should this one be any different? It's better to hold people until we are finished with whatever we are doing there, unless the current Iraq government requests their release, then we should let them go.

Those who were captured as a combatant in Iraq, but are not Iraqi citizens, and are being detained... release them when we are out of Iraq.

Also, I think people who use gulag to describe the facility at Guantanamo are being ridiculous to the power of ridiculous.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » June 18, 2005, 8:54 pm

Aruman wrote:
Drolgin Steingrinder wrote: The one thing that seperates these 'detainees' from regular prisoners in a US jail is that the Gitmo folks haven't been sentenced and probably never will be.

Of all the things that piss me off about the War On Terror, this is one of the biggest. If we - and by we, I mean the entire western world - are to win this thing, then we have to be BETTER THAN THE TERRORISTS. We have to prove that our way works. That it makes sense. That it is humane, loving, caring, sensible. That it provides a better life for people.

This isn't done by creating a gulag and leaving random people with dark sin there to rot without due (or indeed any) process.
The same thing would happen in any war though Drolgin, this isn't a special set of circumstances just for Iraq. It happens in every single conflict/war. Why should this one be any different? It's better to hold people until we are finished with whatever we are doing there, unless the current Iraq government requests their release, then we should let them go.

Those who were captured as a combatant in Iraq, but are not Iraqi citizens, and are being detained... release them when we are out of Iraq.

Also, I think people who use gulag to describe the facility at Guantanamo are being ridiculous to the power of ridiculous.

Errrrm ok stay with me here...People captured in Iraq are not, as far as we know, being sent to Gitmo...Those taken in Iraq were imprisoned in Iraq as PoWs (Mostly at Abu Gharib)...

Gitmo is/was to be exclusively used for those captured in Afghanistan and those prisoners are not classified as PoWs, they are classified as illegal combatants

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 18, 2005, 9:06 pm

Arborealus wrote:
Aruman wrote:
Drolgin Steingrinder wrote: The one thing that seperates these 'detainees' from regular prisoners in a US jail is that the Gitmo folks haven't been sentenced and probably never will be.

Of all the things that piss me off about the War On Terror, this is one of the biggest. If we - and by we, I mean the entire western world - are to win this thing, then we have to be BETTER THAN THE TERRORISTS. We have to prove that our way works. That it makes sense. That it is humane, loving, caring, sensible. That it provides a better life for people.

This isn't done by creating a gulag and leaving random people with dark sin there to rot without due (or indeed any) process.
The same thing would happen in any war though Drolgin, this isn't a special set of circumstances just for Iraq. It happens in every single conflict/war. Why should this one be any different? It's better to hold people until we are finished with whatever we are doing there, unless the current Iraq government requests their release, then we should let them go.

Those who were captured as a combatant in Iraq, but are not Iraqi citizens, and are being detained... release them when we are out of Iraq.

Also, I think people who use gulag to describe the facility at Guantanamo are being ridiculous to the power of ridiculous.
Errrrm ok stay with me here...People captured in Iraq are not, as far as we know, being sent to Gitmo...Those taken in Iraq were imprisoned in Iraq as PoWs (Mostly at Abu Gharib)...

Gitmo is/was to be exclusively used for those captured in Afghanistan and those prisoners are not classified as PoWs, they are classified as illegal combatants

Whatever, interchange Iraq with Afghanistan then... no difference.

Drolgin Steingrinder · Post by **Drolgin Steingrinder** » June 18, 2005, 10:14 pm

Aruman wrote:
Drolgin Steingrinder wrote: The one thing that seperates these 'detainees' from regular prisoners in a US jail is that the Gitmo folks haven't been sentenced and probably never will be.

Of all the things that piss me off about the War On Terror, this is one of the biggest. If we - and by we, I mean the entire western world - are to win this thing, then we have to be BETTER THAN THE TERRORISTS. We have to prove that our way works. That it makes sense. That it is humane, loving, caring, sensible. That it provides a better life for people.

This isn't done by creating a gulag and leaving random people with dark sin there to rot without due (or indeed any) process.
The same thing would happen in any war though Drolgin, this isn't a special set of circumstances just for Iraq. It happens in every single conflict/war. Why should this one be any different? It's better to hold people until we are finished with whatever we are doing there, unless the current Iraq government requests their release, then we should let them go.

Those who were captured as a combatant in Iraq, but are not Iraqi citizens, and are being detained... release them when we are out of Iraq.

Also, I think people who use gulag to describe the facility at Guantanamo are being ridiculous to the power of ridiculous.

What other term would you use? Sure, it's not a work camp but the conditions - lack of a judicial process, no disclosure to families of inmates etc - resemble it in all other aspects. It's also what Amnesty International call it. You remember them? The independant group that your vice president cited as a credible source for the humanitarian aspect of entering Iraq?

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 18, 2005, 11:05 pm

Drolgin Steingrinder wrote: What other term would you use? Sure, it's not a work camp but the conditions - lack of a judicial process, no disclosure to families of inmates etc - resemble it in all other aspects. It's also what Amnesty International call it. You remember them? The independant group that your vice president cited as a credible source for the humanitarian aspect of entering Iraq?

Eh?

Getting 3 quality meals a day, clean conditions, right to practice their religion, no forced labor... yeah, sure sounds like a Gulag to me

A few incidents which IMO are because of cultural differences does not a Gulag make.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 18, 2005, 11:31 pm

Aruman wrote:Getting 3 quality meals a day, clean conditions, right to practice their religion, no forced labor... yeah, sure sounds like a Gulag to me .

well shit dude it sounds like paradise where the hell do I sign up?!

you're so fucking out of touch with reality. guess what, smacktard? unless the front doors are wide open and there's a jet plane warming up on a runway outside with AFGHANISTAN OR BUST painted on it, then it's a fucking PRISON and PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO BE IN PRISONS.

christ its like talking to children. stupid children.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 18, 2005, 11:43 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Aruman wrote:Getting 3 quality meals a day, clean conditions, right to practice their religion, no forced labor... yeah, sure sounds like a Gulag to me .
well shit dude it sounds like paradise where the hell do I sign up?!

you're so fucking out of touch with reality. guess what, smacktard? unless the front doors are wide open and there's a jet plane warming up on a runway outside with AFGHANISTAN OR BUST painted on it, then it's a fucking PRISON and PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO BE IN PRISONS.

christ its like talking to children. stupid children.

No, I am not out of touch with reality, you seem to be. Have you ever been to the Middle East? I have...

You just think that people who live in Afghanistan live life the same as we do.

No shit... people don't like being in prison? Fuck me, I never knew that!

Guess what, people don't like being detained either! Woo! Revelation!

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 19, 2005, 12:18 am

How does the fact you have allegedly been to the Middle East have any relevance to what is being discussed here?

The point is, the rosey assesment you have made of GITMO inmates is fucking stupid.

What justifiable reason can you (some random guy) give for withholding anyones human rights when it is the very thing you claim to support.

You may feel you are supporting the anti terrorist cause with your beliefs, but in fact, you are being hypocritical and disregarding what you profess to be wanting to achieve.

This essentially nullifies your otherwise well placed faith in freedom/democracy and human rights.

How does this make you in touch with reality? Are you not noticing the subtlety or something?

It's not hard to see.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 19, 2005, 12:53 am

Nick wrote: The point is, the rosey assesment you have made of GITMO inmates is fucking stupid.

The Gulag assessment of GITMO is what? Yes, fucking stupid.

As far as your Comment about the Middle East and me being there...

I was there for a good while and saw how they lived. My description of what these people receive in Guantanamo is accurate. Thanks, move along now.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 19, 2005, 12:54 am

Aruman wrote:
No, I am not out of touch with reality, you seem to be. Have you ever been to the Middle East? I have...

You just think that people who live in Afghanistan live life the same as we do.

No shit... people don't like being in prison? Fuck me, I never knew that!

Guess what, people don't like being detained either! Woo! Revelation!

Jesus fucking christ.
Has the neocon propaganda fucked your brain so hard that you can rationalise shit like this?

That's just fucking scary.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » June 19, 2005, 12:55 am

miir wrote:
Aruman wrote:
No, I am not out of touch with reality, you seem to be. Have you ever been to the Middle East? I have...

You just think that people who live in Afghanistan live life the same as we do.

No shit... people don't like being in prison? Fuck me, I never knew that!

Guess what, people don't like being detained either! Woo! Revelation!

Jesus fucking christ.
Has the neocon propaganda fucked your brain so hard that you can rationalise shit like this?

That's just fucking scary.

Yes, just like the lemmings falling in line with the OMG a Gulag! crowd.

miir · Post by **miir** » June 19, 2005, 12:57 am

How can you reason with someone with such a fucked up view of human rights?

Speechless.....

Just speechless....

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 19, 2005, 2:20 am

No one has ever died at Gitmo. Discussion of gitmo in the media is serving only to cockblock any movement on social security and to legitimize this false vision of gitmo. The US is operating entirely by the rules, at gitmo and beyond. I have nothing further to say.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 19, 2005, 4:20 am

Fash wrote:No one has ever died at Gitmo. Discussion of gitmo in the media is serving only to cockblock any movement on social security and to legitimize this false vision of gitmo. The US is operating entirely by the rules, at gitmo and beyond. I have nothing further to say.

well shit you've convinced me. what a compelling fucking argument.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 19, 2005, 4:34 am

kyoukan wrote:
Fash wrote:No one has ever died at Gitmo. Discussion of gitmo in the media is serving only to cockblock any movement on social security and to legitimize this false vision of gitmo. The US is operating entirely by the rules, at gitmo and beyond. I have nothing further to say.
well shit you've convinced me. what a compelling fucking argument.

You're a dipshit, hence not on the list of people that need convincing.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 19, 2005, 4:36 am

oh, winnow, ICE BURN

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » June 19, 2005, 4:59 am

kyoukan wrote:a jet plane warming up on a runway outside with AFGHANISTAN OR BUST painted on it

There's a quality terrorist joke in there!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 19, 2005, 5:40 am

The one-liners are getting shorter! If you can trim four more words off I'll be really impressed!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 19, 2005, 10:36 am

Watching Winnow and Kyo go at it is like watching Dumb and Dumber. Of coruse then you have the guestappearance of Aruman making Dumberer!

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 19, 2005, 11:24 am

The Gulag assessment of GITMO is what? Yes, fucking stupid.

As far as your Comment about the Middle East and me being there...

I was there for a good while and saw how they lived. My description of what these people receive in Guantanamo is accurate. Thanks, move along now.

Umm...you failed to answer a single question and finish it off with a "thanks move along now". Avoiding the questions, the seemingly only reserve of the right wing capitalist these days.

Please tell me how "seeing how they live" is relevant to GITMO. Are you honestly suggesting being handcuffed and interrogated in a small cell for several years is equivalent to their usual way of life?

That appears (somewhere in the mishmash of alleged logic of your posts) to be the point you're making.

Yet you call us lemmings?

Funny joke sir. /applaud

You have a seriously deluded and disturbing view of the world around you.

Oh and Fash, simply put, you are hysterically incorrect in those assumptions in your last post, and using the word incorrect is being kind.

If you believe GITMO is an acceptable situation, you are no defender of freedom. Which would in theory put you in a very dangerous position when added to the long list of oppression the US has supported (Palestine, East Timor, Venezuela).

Nice to see you can ignore the suffering of people so very very easily. It's a real plus side to your overall character.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » June 19, 2005, 12:20 pm

Ok.....so even though there are known Al Queida people at Gitmo, we should just let everyone go? There is a reason that the liberals are not running the U.S. right now and it is stupid shit like you are spewing that got Bush back into the White House.

Do you morons understand that right now people in the U.S. don't care about what foreigners think? After 9/11 they will elect people who are not afraid to bomb the shit out of someone and enact vengeance. They also are not giving a rats ass about terrorists sitting in Cuba. If that ration is 80% terrorists and 20% innocent people in Gitmo, then your average American is perfectly fine with everyone sitting there until Osama is a rotting corpse.

You don't just turn everyone loose until you can postively weed out every last one of the Al Queida members out.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 19, 2005, 1:14 pm

You retard, learn to read.

Not one person in this post that you classify as a "!moron" is saying they should all just be released.

The argument is that they should be given the same rights as any other prisoner, IE one where they can contact their family, lawyers etc instead of being forever held with NO CHARGES and PRESUMED GUILT for as long as some fucking white rich boy in the country with the most guns decides to be so kind as to either put them to death or (just maybe) let them go without release because of the OVERWHELMING lack of evidence of many of their alleged crimes.

Also give us (the rest of the world) a bit more credit, we are perfectly aware many Americans are a bunch of unilateralist pigs that don't give a shit about whether they got the right guys (or even the right country) so long as they get that fuckwit Bush to enact some vengeance.

All under the guise of "freedom" as well, the fucking nerve of you.

The reasons the liberals aren't running the white house is because sheep like you believe the propoganda machine on a daily basis whilst jumping on the various extremist election issues (abortion/Gay marriage/blahblahblah).

All the while wondering why there are 'terrorists' out to get you. (Which I don't support, but can at least understand). That's another word, terrorist, which now applies to whoever you feel like applying it to, as opposed to people who strike terror into people (again, see Palestine if you want a serious example of terror and not just fucking buzzwords)

Oh it's so difficult to comprehend!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 19, 2005, 1:36 pm

Do you morons understand that right now people in the U.S. don't care about what foreigners think? After 9/11 they will elect people who are not afraid to bomb the shit out of someone and enact vengeance. They also are not giving a rats ass about terrorists sitting in Cuba. If that ration is 80% terrorists and 20% innocent people in Gitmo, then your average American is perfectly fine with everyone sitting there until Osama is a rotting corpse.

And that shows how idiotic and hypocritical the average American is.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 19, 2005, 2:00 pm

it's father's day go spend time with your dad you stupid assholes ffs.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 19, 2005, 2:12 pm

That'll be a bit hard when my dad lives over 1000 miles away

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 19, 2005, 2:24 pm

Sylvos wrote:it's father's day go spend time with your dad you stupid assholes ffs.

Lives on the other side of the world and it is not father's day there

Different date.

Mr Bacon · Post by **Mr Bacon** » June 19, 2005, 2:48 pm

1) It's a Hallmark Holiday, no thanks.
2) My father knows that I care for him quite a bit.
3) I bought him a card
4) He just wants to relax and be left alone.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » June 19, 2005, 3:31 pm

Kelshara wrote:Watching Winnow and Kyo go at it is like watching Dumb and Dumber. Of coruse then you have the guestappearance of Aruman making Dumberer!

wow a whole post by kelshara where he doesnt prattle brainlessly about norway. I didn't think you had it in you.

you have about as much right to call my posts stupid as cartalas, you retard.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » June 19, 2005, 7:07 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:Ok.....so even though there are known Al Queida people at Gitmo, we should just let everyone go? There is a reason that the liberals are not running the U.S. right now and it is stupid shit like you are spewing that got Bush back into the White House.

If there are known terrorist in there, then CHARGE THEM with something. Just locking people up for years without charging them = bad. If you got proof theyre terrorists, charge them. If you got any sort of proof they did anything wrong, charge them.
But DONT just lock them up for years without a trial.

Do you morons understand that right now people in the U.S. don't care about what foreigners think? After 9/11 they will elect people who are not afraid to bomb the shit out of someone and enact vengeance. They also are not giving a rats ass about terrorists sitting in Cuba. If that ration is 80% terrorists and 20% innocent people in Gitmo, then your average American is perfectly fine with everyone sitting there until Osama is a rotting corpse.

The sad part about what youre saying there is that you dont get this is WHY you guys are so bloody hated, and most likely will get attacked again.
But i think its nice you think that a 20% failure rate in your legal system are acceptable. Now please go be charged for something.

You don't just turn everyone loose until you can postively weed out every last one of the Al Queida members out.

Just a question. How are you "gonna weed out" people when you dont GIVE THEM A TRIAL. It might surprise you, but people dont get a "im a terrorist" sigh on them if if you keep them locked up long enough.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 19, 2005, 7:09 pm

kyoukan wrote:
Kelshara wrote:Watching Winnow and Kyo go at it is like watching Dumb and Dumber. Of coruse then you have the guestappearance of Aruman making Dumberer!
wow a whole post by kelshara where he doesnt prattle brainlessly about norway. I didn't think you had it in you.

Yes I made an exception for you, don't you feel special? You should, you surely are.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » June 19, 2005, 7:54 pm

I think it's pretty special that Cartalas got mentioned so many times in this thread. He's done his work well!

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » June 19, 2005, 8:46 pm

RotW: Wow, so you think it's okay to jail w/o charge 1 in 5 innocent people?

RWNJ: Well, more than that if it keeps my family safe.

RotW: Lets assume the fairy-tale of security, and ask how does this keep your family safe when they turn their investigation to the terrorist cells still operating in the continental US? How do you know someone with a grudge won't turn you in as a terrorist they heard saying, "Mohamad jihad, a laka laka, Mohamad jihad" on your cell phone?

RWNJ: I ain't no sand nigger!

RotW: Thanks, and good night.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » June 20, 2005, 1:22 am

Well I had a WONDERFUL fathers day! Went to Church, out to eat then my son and I went swimming then over to hang out at a friends house (his Godfather's) All in all a great day!

Please let me add something else to this though that this American, who believes his Country is the greatest Nation in the world does care what other nations think because they do see thing froms a different viewpoint than we can. Any leader worth even a half a shit knows to listen his people, especially those that DON'T think like he does because no one is perfect. We as a Nation are FAR from perfect but I truly believe we do a pretty damn good job in most cases... not so much as of late though. To BE a World Leader who have to do just that LEAD... something we haven't done in at least 5 years with the exception of Afghanistan. I'm confident the world and America would be in a much better situation right now if we had finished there. Who knows, we might even be in Iraq by now... but with more than a couple of nations truly contributing AND without us looking to the rest of the world like we are a bunch of greedy bastards...

Oh well...

Marb

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 20, 2005, 8:30 am

Marbus wrote: Any leader worth even a half a shit knows to listen his people, especially those that DON'T think like he does because no one is perfect.

Any leader worth even half a shit does what he/she feels is just and right even though a loud faction protest against him and his policies.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » June 20, 2005, 9:50 am

So you like dictatorships?

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 20, 2005, 10:10 am

Lynks wrote:So you like dictatorships?

He just likes DICK HAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA LOLLZ @ ME @ 6:09 AM. I AM VARY FUNNY.

yeah anyway, that one couldn't be helped was too attractive to not use as a pun - back to the the Adobe Slave Pits.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 20, 2005, 10:15 am

Nick wrote:That'll be a bit hard when my dad lives over 1000 miles away

Im sure its by choice, Damn I wouldnt think 1000 miles would be far enough.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 20, 2005, 10:17 am

kyoukan wrote:
Kelshara wrote:Watching Winnow and Kyo go at it is like watching Dumb and Dumber. Of coruse then you have the guestappearance of Aruman making Dumberer!
wow a whole post by kelshara where he doesnt prattle brainlessly about norway. I didn't think you had it in you.

you have about as much right to call my posts stupid as cartalas, you retard.

" Your post are stupid"

miir · Post by **miir** » June 20, 2005, 11:08 am

Any leader worth even half a shit does what he/she feels is just and right even though a loud faction protest against him and his policies

You talking about Saddam?
Kim Jong Il maybe?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 20, 2005, 1:24 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050620/ts_ ... ntanamo_dc

I think Clinton is just as much of a corporate fucking shill as the rest of them but he is right in this case.

Watch as the morons flock to discredit him because he jizzed on some womans dress, whilst the one they defend has killed thousands upon thousands of people and set back diplomatic relations for their country about 90 years.

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » June 20, 2005, 1:32 pm

I think they discredit him because she was a big girl.

Shoot on Jessica Biel's dress and we re-write the constitution to give him a third term.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » June 20, 2005, 2:19 pm

Seebs wrote:I think they discredit him because she was a big girl.

Shoot on Jessica Biel's dress and we re-write the constitution to give him a third term.

Gary Hart's concubine was hotter.

Clinton was obviously a team player and got stuck with Hillary while his friend was enjoying the good life out on the dance floor. Clinton = Wingman.

cid · Post by **cid** » June 20, 2005, 2:24 pm

You hate Bush and Clinton, there is nothing about America you like. We get it. It is all you have to say.

Over

and

Over

and

Over.

Seebs even asked you what you would do for a solution, but all that you spew is hate.

I called this like 2 months ago. You hate Americans you fucking racist, the majority sees it now.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 20, 2005, 3:13 pm

Dry your eyes and start acting like the moniker you adopted.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » June 20, 2005, 3:16 pm

Im still waiting for the public apology from your mother to humanity for fucking not aborting you.

But you and you alone have swayed me to the Pro-Choice side.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » June 20, 2005, 3:19 pm

Hey no fair, you haven't influenced any change in my life whatsoever

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 20, 2005, 3:41 pm

i'm sorry but someone from Ireland has no room to talk about Peace and a United Sovereign Leader when they can not even find peace in their own country. At least in the US we don't slaughter each other in the streets cause one of us is Catholic and one of us is Protestant. We don't bomb our own kin and kill each other's children.
Last time the U.S had a war on its own soil was in the 1860's, and I don't remember hearing about a Catholic Priest and a busload of kids being blown up during that time peroid at all.

Don't talk about how you think the US is all jaded and evil when your country can't even unite for a common cause.
I don't give a shit that you think Bush is evil, he's our boss for the next 4 years, suck it up and bear it and pray we don't discover oil on your soil.

Next time you want to lecture us on our nation's "Morals and Judgements" i want you to look at Northern Ireland and look at the 5 year old kid dead in the street with a shard of shrapnel in his heart cause an IRA member decided to make an example of your genocial countrymen.

Yeah, the US is a terrible fucking country.

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » June 20, 2005, 3:47 pm

Sylvos' e-peen is the size of Tennessee.

BTW, Teeny, the Catholics won right?

Fucking Protestants.