"In perpetuity"

What do you think about the world?
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Arborealus
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"In perpetuity"

Post by Arborealus »

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&c ... nees_dc_15
Deputy Associate Attorney General J. Michael Wiggins wrote:"It's our position that, legally, they can be held in perpetuity."
So much for one of the reasons our founding fathers' went to war. Finally rid of that pesky Writ of Habeus Corpus...

The last time someone asserted this in America...It was causus belli for a revolution...
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Re: "In perpetuity"

Post by Aruman »

Arborealus wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&c ... nees_dc_15
Deputy Associate Attorney General J. Michael Wiggins wrote:"It's our position that, legally, they can be held in perpetuity."
So much for one of the reasons our founding fathers' went to war. Finally rid of that pesky Writ of Habeus Corpus...

The last time someone asserted this in America...It was causus belli for a revolution...
How about putting that in context?

Do you understand the reason for holding people for the duration of a conflict?

Granted, some of them may not be actual combatants... and the ones who we are 100% sure are not should be released.
"Or else... what?"

"Or else, We will be very, very angry with you, and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are..."


Numb Nuts: How is 2300 > 23000?

kyoukan: It's not?
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Re: "In perpetuity"

Post by Arborealus »

Aruman wrote:
Arborealus wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&c ... nees_dc_15
Deputy Associate Attorney General J. Michael Wiggins wrote:"It's our position that, legally, they can be held in perpetuity."
So much for one of the reasons our founding fathers' went to war. Finally rid of that pesky Writ of Habeus Corpus...

The last time someone asserted this in America...It was causus belli for a revolution...
How about putting that in context?

Do you understand the reason for holding people for the duration of a conflict?
I understand the rationale for holding POWs for the duration of a conflict...These are "not" POWs...Have you read the Geneva Convention? Have you read the Supreme Court's Ruling on this from a year ago? Are you familiar with the "Black Hole of Calcutta" as a causus belli?

If you are not outraged by this then you sir are unamerican...
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Re: "In perpetuity"

Post by Aruman »

Arborealus wrote:
Aruman wrote:
Arborealus wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&c ... nees_dc_15
Deputy Associate Attorney General J. Michael Wiggins wrote:"It's our position that, legally, they can be held in perpetuity."
So much for one of the reasons our founding fathers' went to war. Finally rid of that pesky Writ of Habeus Corpus...

The last time someone asserted this in America...It was causus belli for a revolution...
How about putting that in context?

Do you understand the reason for holding people for the duration of a conflict?
I understand the rationale for holding POWs for the duration of a conflict...These are "not" POWs...Have you read the Geneva Convention? Have you read the Supreme Court's Ruling on this from a year ago? Are you familiar with the "Black Hole of Calcutta" as a causus belli?

If you are not outraged by this then you sir are unamerican...
In what way are they not PoWs?

As far as me being unamerican... that is just childish bullshit, since yogu have no freaking clue who I am, what I have done, and so on.
"Or else... what?"

"Or else, We will be very, very angry with you, and we will write you a letter telling you how angry we are..."


Numb Nuts: How is 2300 > 23000?

kyoukan: It's not?
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Post by Kelshara »

Well they are not considered PoWs by the government, that would be one way. Not to mention this isn't a war, remember?

And hell for all the times y'all righties call the rest unamerican the word sure seems to fit you right now.
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Re: "In perpetuity"

Post by Arborealus »

Aruman wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Aruman wrote:
Arborealus wrote:http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&c ... nees_dc_15
Deputy Associate Attorney General J. Michael Wiggins wrote:"It's our position that, legally, they can be held in perpetuity."
So much for one of the reasons our founding fathers' went to war. Finally rid of that pesky Writ of Habeus Corpus...

The last time someone asserted this in America...It was causus belli for a revolution...
How about putting that in context?

Do you understand the reason for holding people for the duration of a conflict?
I understand the rationale for holding POWs for the duration of a conflict...These are "not" POWs...Have you read the Geneva Convention? Have you read the Supreme Court's Ruling on this from a year ago? Are you familiar with the "Black Hole of Calcutta" as a causus belli?

If you are not outraged by this then you sir are unamerican...
In what way are they not PoWs?

As far as me being unamerican... that is just childish bullshit, since yogu have no freaking clue who I am, what I have done, and so on.
Ask the Administration how they are not POWs...I don't understand that either...

Well you certainly supporting a position that is clearly in violation of the Constitution...

And just for reference all hyperbole is not necessarily childish...ask your President's speech writers...
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

They are not PoWs. That is the reason they can legally detain them in Cuba per the Geneva Convention. They were determined to be enemy combatants and were removed from the area of the combat. I would highly doubt that most of them would be released until the end of hostilities.


What I am wondering is why none of you lefties got a rash in your panties about the poor citizens of Aruba who can and are arrested and jailed and held without charges for basically as long as they want. How can you pick and choose your outrages?
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Post by Fash »

they eat better than most of us at guantanamo.... are there any vacancies? sign me up for 3 squares and 5 prayers a day.

you got a problem with america? start killing americans.
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Post by Arborealus »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:They are not PoWs. That is the reason they can legally detain them in Cuba per the Geneva Convention. They were determined to be enemy combatants and were removed from the area of the combat. I would highly doubt that most of them would be released until the end of hostilities.


What I am wondering is why none of you lefties got a rash in your panties about the poor citizens of Aruba who can and are arrested and jailed and held without charges for basically as long as they want. How can you pick and choose your outrages?
"per the Geneva Convention?"...you haven't read that in the Geneva Convention because it's simply not there...:)...I know I read it...I would encourage you to do the same before arguing it's points...http://www.genevaconventions.org/

Sorry not familiar with the Laws of Aruba and I'm not sure how that is germain to the discussion at hand but I have read the Constitution and studied it extensively both didactly and less formally...
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Post by Arborealus »

Fash wrote:they eat better than most of us at guantanamo.... are there any vacancies? sign me up for 3 squares and 5 prayers a day.

you got a problem with america? start killing americans.
No I have no problem with america just its dictator...
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Post by Zaelath »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: What I am wondering is why none of you lefties got a rash in your panties about the poor citizens of Aruba who can and are arrested and jailed and held without charges for basically as long as they want. How can you pick and choose your outrages?
Ummm, based on what? Doesn't appear to be anything like that in their law according to this article: http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/i ... xml&coll=2
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Post by Zaelath »

Fash wrote:they eat better than most of us at guantanamo.... are there any vacancies? sign me up for 3 squares and 5 prayers a day.

you got a problem with america? start killing americans.
You're from the same stock that expresses outrage that inmates get free cable while ignoring the ass rape because it's not officially sanctioned. Really, if I had to choose... I think I'll go w/o the cable.
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Post by miir »

Zaelath wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote: What I am wondering is why none of you lefties got a rash in your panties about the poor citizens of Aruba who can and are arrested and jailed and held without charges for basically as long as they want. How can you pick and choose your outrages?
Ummm, based on what? Doesn't appear to be anything like that in their law according to this article: http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnews/i ... xml&coll=2
Facts, schmacts....
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Post by Nick »

No


Justifiable


Reason
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Post by Sylvus »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:What I am wondering is why none of you lefties got a rash in your panties about the poor citizens of Aruba who can and are arrested and jailed and held without charges for basically as long as they want. How can you pick and choose your outrages?
I believe the "rash in Arb's panties" was more about the contempt shown to the US Constitution than it was about poor citizens of anywhere. At least that is what it looked like to me from what he said. While that also may or may not bug him, it's irrelevant to the current discussion.

I realize you're "anti-terrorist", but are you not the least bit concerned that once the so-called war on terror is over (ha!), someone might start infringing on rights that you care about? Or that directly affect you?

I find that a bit scary.
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Post by Neost »

As if the war on terror will EVER be declared over.

It'll be just like "teh war on drugs". It'll drag on and on and on and be used many times as an excuse to further restrict the liberties that our Consitution grants us.

I keep thinking of a barely remembered story about the US becoming a theocracy. Heinlein maybe?
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Post by Sionistic »

This whole war on communi.....eerr TERRORism is going to end in 50 years if history serves correct.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Neost wrote:As if the war on terror will EVER be declared over.

?
As long as America continues in its evil ways, there will always be righteous "terrorists" out there killing those Americans to show their disgust with Americas ways.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

Sylvus wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:What I am wondering is why none of you lefties got a rash in your panties about the poor citizens of Aruba who can and are arrested and jailed and held without charges for basically as long as they want. How can you pick and choose your outrages?
I believe the "rash in Arb's panties" was more about the contempt shown to the US Constitution than it was about poor citizens of anywhere. At least that is what it looked like to me from what he said. While that also may or may not bug him, it's irrelevant to the current discussion.

I realize you're "anti-terrorist", but are you not the least bit concerned that once the so-called war on terror is over (ha!), someone might start infringing on rights that you care about? Or that directly affect you?

I find that a bit scary.

I realize that certain things have to change in the U.S. in these times. In all honesty, a LOT of things need to change in the U.S. At this time, I prefer to have more measures in place that might infringe on what I want to do in return for being a bit safer.

What right have you had infringed on anyway? Has anyone had an incident that was more than just having to wait some extra time for a search at an airport? Oh noz! An inconvenience!


Second....for Arb....I got myself ass backwards in my earlier statement. It is U.S. law and not Geneva convention that I was thinking of. The U.S. law (which predates Bush by a shit ton of years) allows the President to capture and keep unlawful enemy combatants for as long as he wants......as long as they are not being held on U.S. soil. There is no doubt they planned to do this going in....this loophole had to have been researched and planned for to have the GB compound ready in advance.

If those people he had captured had been wearing a uniform of the Iraqi army, then he would have been bound by the Geneva Convention.
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Post by Bubba Grizz »

Since when does our Constitution extend to those who are not American? (real question and not sarcasm)
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Post by archeiron »

Bubba Grizz wrote:Since when does our Constitution extend to those who are not American? (real question and not sarcasm)
I have been reading as many articles as I can find on this of late. I found a good primer on CNN's website written by a visiting professor of Law at Princeton University and lecturer at UCLA Law School, which I will quote later in this post. From this article and the supporting material I read, it appears that there are conflicting precendents as to what the US Government is allowed to do or not do abroad. It is clear that we simply lack the guidance of black letter law that dictates the actions that may be taken legally.

I would argue that in the absense of law, our government should act in the spirit of existing laws, at the very least, so as to not introduce contridiction or double standards into our body of laws. We should take action to ensure that the living document that is our Constitution is updated to reflect the new circumstance, but this has not yet happened.

The discussion of what is and should be black letter law will likely yield positive results at some date in the future (yes, I am an optimist).

The article found at this link
Does the Constitution follow the flag?
Iraq, the war on terror, and the reach of the law

By Kal Raustiala
FindLaw Columnist
Special to CNN.com

(FindLaw) -- A bedrock principle of American democracy is that the Constitution defines and limits our government. Yet does the Constitution constrain the exercise of government power abroad? For instance, would it constrain the U.S. if we occupy Iraq after the war ends?

The venerable question of "whether the Constitution follows the flag" -- a major issue in the 1900 Presidential campaign -- has reemerged, over a hundred years later, due to the war on terror and the current conflict in Iraq.

As is true with respect to many questions of foreign relations law, the leading precedents here are old, and they reflect often outdated conceptions of law and politics.

There are also complicated cross-currents of citizenship and war powers at play. Moreover, the question of the Constitution's extraterritorial reach itself is perhaps misleading.

The Constitution certainly applies globally. The real question is how it applies, and whether specific rights guaranteed by the Constitution are somehow territorially-limited.

Existing precedents suggest that they are. Even when the U.S. annexes territory, inhabitants of the territory do not necessarily enjoy the full protection of the Constitution. Thus, residents of Puerto Rico, though U.S. citizens, are not as a constitutional matter protected by the full Bill of Rights.

Meanwhile, when the United States occupies foreign territory, pursuant to military action, or leases territory, pursuant to a treaty, the constitutional constraints are even weaker -- some would say non-existent.

Just how weak are the constraints with respect to issues that have arisen in the war on terror? One post-9/11 decision already provides some insight; precedents and practice also help suggest an answer.

For present purposes, the most significant question is probably this one: Can the U.S. government act as it pleases if we occupy Iraq -- subject only to the limitations of international law -- or must it also abide also by the U.S. Constitution's principles?

Some commentators, as well as some courts, have suggested that the answer is that basic constitutional protections are completely inapplicable to non-citizens abroad. But that answer is clearly at odds with the best spirit of our constitutional tradition.

Border games: A decision explores rights at Guantanamo

Last month, in Odah v. U.S. the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit faced the question of whether citizens of Australia, Kuwait, and Britain captured in Afghanistan and detained at the U.S. base in Guantanamo, Cuba have a legal right to challenge their detention. The fact that the detainees are non-citizens was not crucial to the decision: non-citizens in the U.S. enjoy many of the same constitutional rights that citizens do.

Accordingly, the court in Odah acknowledged that the relief sought -- a writ of habeas corpus -- was indeed available to non-citizens. What was crucial was the fact that Guantanamo is technically Cuban, rather than U.S., soil. For this reason, the court could not "see why, or how, the writ may be made available to aliens abroad when basic constitutional protections are not." And it concluded that the detainees could not invoke the writ.

The D.C. Circuit's decision vindicates the Administration's policy of detaining suspected Al Qaeda members outside U.S. borders -- in the sense that it proves that, as the Administration thought, it has gained a legal advantage from doing so.

But that legal advantage is misguided -- in reality, Guantanamo is U.S. territory for all relevant purposes. Is it appropriate for the government to act unfettered by the Bill of Rights simply because it chooses to place detainees 90 miles off Florida, rather than in Florida itself?

Geography and the law: A primer

The connection between geography and the law is something few of us think about, though our legal system is replete with implicit assumptions about territory. For most of our history, the prevailing belief was that U.S. law did not have any force outside the U.S.

Indeed, in 1891 the Supreme Court held that the Bill of Rights did not apply at all when the U.S. government acted against citizens abroad. Courts of this period also ruled that U.S. statutes did not apply outside our borders. At the same time, however, we maintained special courts abroad for our citizens in countries that were deemed "uncivilized," such as China. Until 1943, the U.S. even had a special District Court for China, which answered to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit.

Perhaps the most important cases relating to the territorial reach of the law emerged from the Spanish-American War. In that war, the United States became, for the first time, an imperial power, acquiring Puerto Rico and other former colonies of Spain. In the Insular Cases the Supreme Court faced the burning question of whether the constitution applied to our new possessions, which were clearly not destined for statehood.

The Court held that Puerto Rico was "foreign in a domestic sense" and thus only some constitutional provisions applied. The ruling was pithily summed up by then-Secretary of War Elihu Root: "the Constitution indeed follows the flag, but it doesn't quite catch up."

The uneven erosion of territoriality

During the 20th Century, the view that U.S. law stopped at the water's edge eroded. Courts started to enforce domestic statutes extraterritorially, especially in regulatory areas such as antitrust. As the world economy grew interconnected, the notion that U.S. law was limited to U.S. territory began to seem archaic.

After World War II, the United States occupied Germany and Japan. In neither case did the U.S. purport to annex the territories concerned. The Allies did claim, however, that German sovereignty had been extinguished in the war. Nonetheless, German and Japanese law, with some exceptions, continued to remain in force, and the U.S. Constitution was not generally considered relevant to the occupation.

The year 1957 marked a watershed in our conception of legal geography. That year, the Supreme Court's decision in Reid v. Covert expressly overturned the rule that the Bill of Rights did not apply abroad, calling it a relic from another era.

Reid declared that "when the Government reaches out to punish a citizen who is abroad, the shield [of] the Bill of Rights...should not be stripped away just because he happens to be in another land."

Technically, the Court's holding was limited to citizens alone. Nevertheless, some of the language in Reid is so sweeping that it strongly suggests an extension to non-citizens. They, too, are protected by the Constitution when they confront the U.S. government within the U.S.; why should its protections be stripped away when they confront the U.S. government abroad, just because they "happen to be in another land?"

Thus, it is not too surprising that, in an unusual case in 1979, U.S. v. Tiede, a U.S. court in occupied Berlin built on Reid's logic, holding that even non-citizens abroad possessed constitutional rights. The Upshot of Mixed Precedents on the Constitution's Reach

In short, the role of territory in our legal system is unclear, or at least inconsistent.

On the one hand, the basic powers granted by the Constitution are unaffected by geography. Many statutes are routinely applied to conduct abroad. And citizens are clearly protected by the Bill of Rights wherever they go in the world.

On the other hand, while the holdings of Insular Cases have been limited, their basic principle -- that territories ruled by the U.S. are constitutionally distinct from the U.S. itself -- has not changed. In 1990, the Supreme Court expressly reaffirmed this principle in U.S. v. Verdugo-Urquidez, on the way to ruling that the Fourth Amendment did not apply to a search by U.S. government agents of a non-citizen's property in Mexico.

The Odah decision – denying the writ of habeas corpus to those on Guantanamo – continues this line of thought. According to this logic, non-citizens abroad lack any constitutional rights, even when they confront the U.S. government there. However, they continue to enjoy constitutional rights within U.S. borders, even when here illegally.

What will happen with the extraterritorial constitution?

Despite the musty origins of much of the doctrine I have described, the issue of the geographical reach of the Constitution is not arcane. In a globalizing world, the United States frequently acts abroad.

FBI agents interrogate suspects in Africa; U.S. drug officers collaborate with colleagues in Mexico; and antitrust officials prosecute cartels in Europe. As the war on terror makes clear, the United States will act abroad -- even rule abroad --when necessary.

The increasing prevalence of these situations ought to make us rethink the constitutional significance of territory. In particular, the notion that the U.S.-- which prides itself on the rule of law -- can act unfettered by any constitutional consideration simply because it acts extraterritorially is in tension with the core principles of limited government that our nation was founded upon. Rethinking the role of territory in the law is not easy, but a few considerations are germane.

Some issues are relatively straightforward. U.S. rule in Puerto Rico or the Virgin Islands is effectively indefinite. Given this, it is clearly unjust to treat these areas differently simply because they are outside the territorial boundaries of the 50 states. The Constitution should apply fully and completely wherever the U.S. is sovereign.

Law enforcement presents harder questions. Should the FBI provide Miranda warnings when it interrogates criminal suspects abroad? Recently, in the case of U.S. v. Bin Laden, a federal court said it must. (The defendants involved in the ruling did not include Osama Bin Laden, as the case name might suggest; rather, they were two alleged participants in bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and East Africa.)

While the government argued that the obligation to provide such warnings would hobble law enforcement, the court found otherwise. Its ruling, in my view, was reasonable. In general, and where practicable, foreign citizens whom we subject to the coercive force of our criminal law ought to receive the basic protection of our constitution, with respect to the rights of criminal suspects and defendants, as well.

Do combatants have any constitutional rights?

What if, however, the U.S. pursues suspected terrorists abroad not as criminals. but rather as combatants? In that instance, must it still honor their constitutional rights?

A war paradigm rather than a criminal justice paradigm provides a very different set of legal rules. Within the U.S., courts have upheld, albeit with much controversy, treatment for "enemy combatants" – specifically, indefinite detention without access to an attorney that would be unconstitutional in a criminal prosecution. While this is an evolving area of the law, it is plain that U.S. agents are even less restrained when they act against enemy combatants outside U.S. territory.

Guantanamo presents an unusual situation, in which the U.S. is clearly the de facto sovereign. Cuban sovereignty over Guantanamo is formal at best. The U.S. leases Guantanamo from Cuba, but does so pursuant to an agreement that Cuba cannot terminate without US consent.

Given the realities of Guantanamo, U.S. courts ought to treat Guantanamo as if it were U.S. soil. That would not necessarily alter the treatment that the detainees receive. But it would mean that habeas corpus pleas would not be per se barred based on the fiction that Guantanamo is really Cuban territory.

Put simply, Odah and similar precedents holding the base on Guantanamo to be the equivalent of a foreign country ought to be overruled.

Occupation and Iraq

The hardest questions of all are raised by the possible long-term occupation of Iraq. While the Constitution cannot shackle U.S. forces in a war, if the U.S. does occupy and govern Iraq, are there any legal restrictions on what the U.S. may do?

First, international law itself – through the Geneva Conventions and the earlier Hague Conventions, as well as customary law, prohibits a range of actions by "belligerent occupiers" against civilians. Under these Conventions, occupiers cannot institute ex post facto laws (for more on such laws, see Vikram Amar's recent column for this site), seize private property, or restrict religious practice.

These prohibitions are rough equivalents to the U.S. Constitution's Ex Post Facto Clauses, Takings Clause, and Free Exercise Clause. Importantly, these prohibitions apply whether the occupation is deemed "civil" or "military" -- a distinction that is currently being debated within the U.S. government. The Geneva Conventions also grant various rights to occupied civilians, including the right to an attorney if charged with a crime. (In the U.S. Constitution, this right is contained in the Sixth Amendment.)

Second, as a matter of domestic law, including the U.S. Constitution, it is clearly constitutional for the U.S. to establish an interim government and courts in Iraq, such as military commissions.

What about other actions of the U.S. in postwar Iraq, however? That is an open question. Older precedents suggest that the Constitution itself would not limit the actions of the U.S.. Yet it seems difficult to believe today that there are no constitutional restraints on U.S. actions abroad in a country it is occupying and essentially governing.

For instance, could the U.S. occupation administration constitutionally treat some races or religions in Iraq differently than others – for instance, privileging Shiites when distributing food or shelter? Could it subject Iraqi civilians to arbitrary punishments, without giving them the benefits of notice and a hearing so that they could present their own version of events?

Surely the Constitution provides some minimal restraint in these situations, which implicate fundamental rights. One hopes such questions will not be put to the test.

The reach of the law

In the United States, the Constitution is the law of the land, for citizens and non-citizens alike. But where does the reach of that law end?

There are no simple answers to this question. Yet one thing is clear: in a globalizing and dangerous world, we will be forced to consider the connection between law and geography again and again. The current war magnifies the stakes, both for our security and for our constitutional tradition.
Iraq, the war on terror, and the reach of the law


Kal Raustiala is a visiting professor at Princeton University and teaches international law at UCLA Law School
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Post by Sylvos »

oh, I thought you were discussing that John Cussak movie Serendipity.
My bad, nothing to see here, move along.
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Post by Arborealus »

Arch note that that Odah decision in District Court was reversed by the Supreme Court in Rasul et al v. Bush last june

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... 03-334.pdf

The SC held that all persons within the jurisdiction of the US (and it noted that Gitmo was under jurisdiction) are entitled the protection of the loans of the US. And specifically that Habeus was NOT suspended for those Detainees.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/g ... 2D334.html for an html version of the SCOTUS case
Last edited by Arborealus on June 16, 2005, 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Marbus »

Well since most of America seems to have forgotten that there IS a reason our Founding Fathers wrote what they did we will soon be changing our National Anthem from "The Star Spangled Banner" to the first 2 verses of Das Lied der Deutschen (since Germany is using the 3rd)...

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Post by Seebs »

They don't matter. I'll never meet them. If I met one of them, I would more than likely be in a fight to the death with them, so I hope I don;t meet them.

I do not see them as human and have no issue with the termination or abortion of their lives. They are a walking zygote.

Face East and kneel as I Beijing the back of your head with the cheapest slug my commissioned gun can fire.

I hope there are 72 virgins in hell for all of these guys. Personally, I want 72 experienced cum-guzzling whores in heaven. Women that woller on my spunky load and wear it on their chins with all the pride of receiving a Bronze Star.
I want these gifts from God to nuzzle in my bung, lathering it up to frothy perfection and then suck it clean once more. I want this ritual of ass cleaning done for eternity and I want the Lord to perform a miracle of having their collective breaths smell minty fresh afterward.
I want their pussies to taste like lilacs. To always be slick and shiny, well groomed with whimsical shavings, kinda like lawn art. Look a flamingo twat, oooo look cupid with the arrow pointing toward the labia.

Slaughter these fanatical dirt bags. Gut shoot them so they can writhe in their own urine and shit until the farce of Allah becomes clear to them as they slide into the ether.

Dogs have no souls. You can't get blood from a turnip. No shoes, no shirt, no dice. Fuck these people and fuck you for wanting to coddle them.

Kill them. Kill them in any fashion you deem fit. Kill them.

Thanks for your time.
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Post by Voronwë »

i think most people can have a similarly vitriolic viewpoint on child molesters or whatever.

inconvenient as they may be however, the facts surrounding this scenario are inconsistent with that reaction.

you shouldnt be so willing to surrender your long term freedom for short term emotional gratification - which as you clearly illustrate, really has no direct bearing on your life.

You said it yourself, you dont know these people. If they live or die it won't effect you.

Legal precedent however can effect normal employed contributing Americans like yourself.

hell if these guys are truly "enemy combatants", we shouldnt have much trouble trying and executing them.

Then they wont be treated to the opulent luxury of a pita, brown rice, and 2 fruits!!! TWO FRUITS!!!
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Post by Arborealus »

And of great concern is an administration which intentionally attempted to evade the rule of law which it is their sworn duty to uphold.
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Post by Marbus »

Personally I think Seebs is having a mental breakdown due to lack of sleep... but that's another issue... :lol:

Personally I don't know these guys either but what I do know is that they can't be that different from some of the Zealots we have over here EXCEPT they are fighting against us. Obviously they believe in what they are fighting for or... they wouldn't be fighting... right? I don't want to coddle anyone but more importantly I don't want the Great Nation I live in violating it's own laws which we are so pround of... WHICH WE ARE FUCKING FIGHTING FOR IN THE FIRST PLACE. It's ironic isn't it, we are fighting for "freedom" while taking away, unjustly, the very thing we are fighting for... We are suppose to be better than that... aren't we?

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Post by Seebs »

These are not US citizens and do not have the same rights of Americans, neither are they, conveniently , listed as POWs, they are enemy combatants, whatever that means.

We are not picking up folks from Paducah and flying them down to Gitmo. You know that.

Its ironic how you want to cover these bastards in the same flag you are so eager to burn. Stick to your guitar and your yearning for free love. Nirvana broke up and its time to face the reality of today.

People want to kill you because you are a US citizen. No administration is going to change that in our lifetime. Blame whomever you wish for that, but their God is telling them its okay, so nothing we can do will change that.

Remove the melanoma, maybe you'll live.


And Voronwe, you are right, I don't know these people. I don't know homeless people and no longer know very poor people. I know that they have a right to live and a right to seek out freedom and riches, as long as they do not try to kill me.

The folks in Gitmo are dangerous, well fed and no longer a threat. I like the present situation.
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Post by Seebs »

Easy answer Marbus: You are not free to kill and the US will blow your ass up if you are a terrorist whether it be in Pakistan. Yemen or Manatoba.

Droneing isn't just for the left's arguements, its for the terrorists as well.
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Post by Aabidano »

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:At this time, I prefer to have more measures in place that might infringe on what I want to do in return for being a bit safer.
Temporary measures were put in place, the administration is trying to make them permanent. For much of it, no thanks. Especially it's not shown itself to be all that effective.

I don't want anything put (or left) in place that interferes with due proccess or allows Govt. agencies to do anything "sekrit" except with a court order. People are people, most US laws and policies in this respect were made for very good reason, some because of past abuses by our Govt. against US citizens, many in the framing of our constitution.

There were already rules in place to cover terrorism, emergencies, etc...
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Post by Arborealus »

Seebs wrote:These are not US citizens and do not have the same rights of Americans, neither are they, conveniently , listed as POWs, they are enemy combatants, whatever that means.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Post by masteen »

If we're talking about the intents of the founding fathers in the Constitution, then darkies only count as 3/5 of a person.
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Post by Voronwë »

if they are truly guilty of crimes against the US, they should be tried and punished - and hopefully executed.

but as people who have followed this issue know is that quite a few of the poeple were simply sold to the US by Afghan warlords who were collecting bounties for catching "Al Qaeda" fighters.

Remember Abu Ghareb? remember how Rumsfeld said all of those people were dangerous and needed to be held to preserve order. When in truth most were just regular people, as 85% of them were released within weeks of the "60 minutes" story breaking.

It is very likely that some of the people at GITMO are equally innocent. those people have 'due process' rights, as determined by the Supreme Court of the United States.

Unless you have a legal counterargument to that, i'm really not sure what the discussion is.
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Post by Seebs »

You're feeding me shit and telling me its a Zagnut. I know the difference.

This is why we deport people. You think those deported folks want to leave?

What about the incarcetared? What about ex-cons that no longer have the right to vote. Hell, Arnold can;t be President because of our rules.

Your arguments is stale and corrupted with Broad Brush strokes. You remind me of the Baptist down here that tell me everything in the bible is fact, verbatim, just the way it is. These are the same fucks that knock up their niece and think Jesus spoke English.

Those rights are given to Americans. you can still stone your wife to death in Iran, different set of rules.
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Post by Arborealus »

Just for reference...

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Post by Seebs »

Lol .. Thanks for that.
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Post by Marbus »

Seebs, I agree... deport these sorry sacks fo shit, I'm all for that or even better, charge them with a crime and keep them in jail, I'm all for that too. But DO NOT just leave them sitting there and thumb your nose at our constution... that's the point. I don't know these people either but I believe everyone, even those trying to kill me, diserve to be treated as we set forth in our constution... note the statement ALL MEN. We joke they didn't include Women or people of colour but in essence they did... and we have certiantly done that now... at least until recently. If they are guilty of trying to kill Americans or are PoWs then fine but our Gov. has said that is not the case (because they haven't charged them) and the Courts have said they aren't PoWs so... morally we really don't have much of a choice. My suggestion is to shit... or get off the pot.

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Post by Seebs »

This is all to avoid US lawyers getting involved and having 500 different suits.

I have no answer to what to do with these guys, but they are not on US soil for us to deport, yet another loophole.

I simply refuse to worr yabout their treatment or our right to keep them detained.

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Post by Arborealus »

Actually Marb the Administration has said they are not PoWs (to avoid the Geneva Convention rules)...

But the Law of the Land applies to everyone here...If a foreign tourist shoots someone here...he is subject to legal prosecution as applicable...If he is robbed here he has recourse to that law...And GITMO is here legally, in much the same way as any US Embassy is here...

They should have IMO been treated as Prisoners of War...but the Admin decided they could evade the Geneva Conventions by taking them to GITMO...Once in US Territory they immediately have recourse to the US courts in which Habeus Corpus, right to speedy trial etc etc is applicable...
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Post by Arborealus »

Seebs wrote:You cannot reason with a snake. You can make a hat band.
Better still you don't step on it in the first place.
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Post by Kelshara »

Seebs sounds like a combination of Cartalas and Metanis. Scary.
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Post by Seebs »

Seebs does not like terrorists. Should be pretty clear.

I have no idea on those other fellas mindset. Think for yourself, develop your own opinion.

Saying I remind you of others is simply chicken shit and adds nothing to the sauce. Cook or get out of the fucking kitchen simpleton.
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Post by Aabidano »

Arborealus wrote:Actually Marb the Administration has said they are not PoWs (to avoid the Geneva Convention rules)...
Per the Genva convention, they are not prisoners of war. In part, to be a PoW you have to be a uniformed "lawful" representitive of a state. Random people shooting at other people, (just like pirates) don't qualify for international protection. That's pretty cut and dried.

In earlier periods\conflicts they would have simply been shot, but there is a question as to what they may or may not have done.

Either prosecute them or let them go.
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Post by masteen »

Seeber's specialty is the jack sauce...
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Post by Winnow »

This is the part of the thread where the "America, Fuck Yeah" song should be played slowed down to emphasize a crisis.
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Post by Atokal »

Voronwë wrote:if they are truly guilty of crimes against the US, they should be tried and punished - and hopefully executed.

It is very likely that some of the people at GITMO are equally innocent. those people have 'due process' rights, as determined by the Supreme Court of the United States.

Unless you have a legal counterargument to that, i'm really not sure what the discussion is.
I have to agree with Voronwe. Of equal importance to the above statement is the fact that the USA is selling democracy and their form of government as the best available at this time. It becomes infinitely more difficult to sell your ideology when you have different rules for different people.

If they are guilty hang em high. If they are innocent set em free. Are any of those being held in GITMO American Citizens?

Unfortunately those being held in GITMO that are innocent are probably the next Osama's.
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Post by Arborealus »

Aabidano wrote:
Arborealus wrote:Actually Marb the Administration has said they are not PoWs (to avoid the Geneva Convention rules)...
Per the Genva convention, they are not prisoners of war. In part, to be a PoW you have to be a uniformed "lawful" representitive of a state. Random people shooting at other people, (just like pirates) don't qualify for international protection. That's pretty cut and dried.

In earlier periods\conflicts they would have simply been shot, but there is a question as to what they may or may not have done.

Either prosecute them or let them go.
Yes well per the Geneva Convention, those not caught in the act of attacking or spying upon the United States by US Forces or it's uniformed allies are civilians (ie those that were remanded into US custody by anyone who wanted a bit of cash)...So pragmatically we have kidnapped those people...

I think a reasonable argument could be made for treating those captured by the US troops in the act like PoWs similiarly a good case could be made for summary execution of them in situ in lieu of the situation of the conflict...

A reasonable arguement could even be made for detaining the questionable detainees in theater as PoWs...while reasonable investigation is made into the veracity of these charges and while the conflict persists...

Removing them en masse to GITMO was a fucking boneheaded idea...Exchanging cash for prisoners turned in at random is an obviously suspect process as well...
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Post by Marbus »

From a Geek standpoint... here is how I feel
There are some words which I have known since I was a schoolboy. "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." These words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie -- as a wisdom, and warning. The first time any man's freedom is trodden on, we're all damaged.
No truer words have been spoken so well, whether in a SciFi series or in a book...

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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

If we were Muslims we would just behead them.
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