Texas: 19yo gets life for helping gf end pregnancy..

cid · Post by **cid** » June 8, 2005, 12:34 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: A woman who goes to the abortion clinic with her mom and dad and gets it safely taken care of, does not make me sick.
I don't agree. She should make the decision herself about the future outcome of her WHOLE LIFE.

He did not say anything about the parents telling the child what to do.

Sirensa · Post by **Sirensa** » June 8, 2005, 12:37 pm

While I think it's great if a girl has a decent enough relationship with her parents to tell them, I think more problems would ensue were parental notification required.

I'm very much against requiring parental notification and believe such a requirement would only cause more kids to try to illegally abort unwanted pregnancies - such as the kids in the instant case.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 8, 2005, 12:39 pm

parents are very quick to disallow such an action, and so force the girl to live with THEIR decision...

it's not right... if you love children so much, why bring them into shitty unwanted situations?

an unwanted few month old fetus was saved from a shitty life.. and a man who has lived 19 years will now spend life in prison.

so this is how liberty dies... to raucous applause.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 12:45 pm

cid wrote: He did not say anything about the parents telling the child what to do.

True. But he did strongly imply it. Was I wrong in thinking that Midnyte only wants abortion with parental consent?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 12:49 pm

Lohrno wrote:
cid wrote: He did not say anything about the parents telling the child what to do.
True. But he did strongly imply it. Was I wrong in thinking that Midnyte only wants abortion with parental consent?

Nope. You aren't wrong. A child under the age of 18 should have parental consent to have an operation to kill something growing inside her. She would not be allowed to undergo an operation in a hospital without parental consent, what makes this any different, except for the fact it is a procedure to allow someone the easy way out of not having to pay the consequences for their actions?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 12:59 pm

Should she have say apendicitis, should her parents be allowed to disallow an appendectomy because they don't want to live with the costs of college? (Or add some religious reason for less surreality(is that a word?)).

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » June 8, 2005, 1:41 pm

Should she have say apendicitis, should her parents be allowed to disallow an appendectomy because they don't want to live with the costs of college? (Or add some religious reason for less surreality(is that a word?)).

Parents are allowed to disallow medical treatment. There have been several cases where parents refused to allow simple treatment that would save their childs life. They believe god will save the child if it is meant to be saved. People arent forced to undergo operations. And parents arent required to submit their child to a medical procedure.

People have been arrested for negligence in such cases. I dont what the results have been. But I cant see how its the states right to order medical treatment that would violate the families religious beliefs.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 8, 2005, 2:11 pm

Lohrno wrote:Should she have say apendicitis, should her parents be allowed to disallow an appendectomy because they don't want to live with the costs of college? (Or add some religious reason for less surreality(is that a word?)).

You dumb ass, appendicitus is life threatening. A pregnancy isn't unless it is diagnosed by a doctor to be as such. Bad example, really really bad example. You're fucking fired.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 2:16 pm

Sylvos wrote: You dumb ass, appendicitus is life threatening. A pregnancy isn't unless it is diagnosed by a doctor to be as such. Bad example, really really bad example. You're fucking fired.

Right but I'm asking - should we really let parents only decide such things as determine the future of a child? IE: Should parents be able to force kids into having / not having abortions and/or force them to die by denying them such life saving treatments?

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 8, 2005, 2:38 pm

those are two totally seperate subjects which you can not put together.
Since an appendix everyone has, a child not everyone has.
The appendix *could* go bad, which means it has to be removed or you die (or almost do), a child while it could cause physical harm can be removed by consent or given away. You shouldn't use life threatening conditions vs. pregnancy. Cause even if the guardians refuse care of someone who has a life threatening illness, they can be arrested dependant upon state laws.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 2:48 pm

Lohrno wrote:Should she have say apendicitis, should her parents be allowed to disallow an appendectomy because they don't want to live with the costs of college? (Or add some religious reason for less surreality(is that a word?)).

No. Please try and make analogies that make sense. You just mentioned one that could be harmful to the girl. Try again retard.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 2:50 pm

Well I'll try to point out the connection I am seeing, if the parents are doing such things in either case on religious grounds, and the child does not have such beliefs, then isn't the child being forced into something against their will based on religion?

Conversely in the appendectomy example, suppose the parents were atheist, and their kid was of some religion that doesn't approve of surgery. Would it be okay for them to force surgery on their kid?

I think it's good that the parents can be arrested in some states for such crimes, but I think it needs to be universal.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 2:51 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Try again retard.

Ad hominem is the last resort of someone who doesn't have a better argument.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 2:52 pm

Lohrno wrote:Well I'll try to point out the connection I am seeing, if the parents are doing such things in either case on religious grounds, and the child does not have such beliefs, then isn't the child being forced into something against their will based on religion?

Conversely in the appendectomy example, suppose the parents were atheist, and their kid was of some religion that doesn't approve of surgery. Would it be okay for them to force surgery on their kid?

I think it's good that the parents can be arrested in some states for such crimes, but I think it needs to be universal.

Stop asshole. Stop. Stop with the fucking suppose this, and suppose that. Stay within the god damned discussion. Stop mucking up the fucking question at hand with your nonsense. The reason you cannot find a valid arguement that is comparative to aborting a baby, is because there is none.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 2:55 pm

In case you missed it I am making the case that it's not always good for parents to be able to force medical decisions on children. This is how they are linked. They are only the same thing in that they involve parents making decisions for children. The same action can have different consequences as you can see.

cid · Post by **cid** » June 8, 2005, 2:59 pm

You can't make a case with fucking what if's and supposes.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 3:04 pm

I'm pointing out examples in which this might not be good. Oh well I am just going to say I disagree that parents should be making decisions about abortion for their children against their will, and leave it at that until someone can tell me a good reason for keeping parental control over children against their will that answers all these cases.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 8, 2005, 3:28 pm

This is the drivers license post all over again with Lohrno. GG.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 3:32 pm

Sylvos wrote:This is the drivers license post all over again with Lohrno. GG.

Translation: Yeah, sorry I've got nothing.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 8, 2005, 3:34 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Sylvos wrote:This is the drivers license post all over again with Lohrno. GG.
Translation: Yeah, sorry I've got nothing.

Translation: My name is Lohrno and I'm a fucking idiot.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 3:37 pm

I'm sorry, I don't engage in flamewars anymore. Try kyoukan if you like. I'm sure she'll be happy to oblige you.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » June 8, 2005, 3:41 pm

I looked up the information here in Ohio.

Some government pamphlet wrote:A minor in Ohio may obtain an abortion if one of the following is the case:
1) The physician performing the abortion has given 24 hour notice to the minors parents/gaurdian.
2) Juvenile court orders it without parental notification
3) One of the parents has given written consent

I am sorry the parent(s) need to know. Of course the parents should already know if they are doing their job, but thats a different story all together.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 3:41 pm

Lohrno wrote:I'm sorry, I don't engage in flamewars anymore. Try kyoukan if you like. I'm sure she'll be happy to oblige you.

He wasn't trying to engage you in a flamewar. He was just pointing out what a few of us here see quite clearly......you can communicate with the wit and skill of a dingleberry.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 3:43 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lohrno wrote:I'm sorry, I don't engage in flamewars anymore. Try kyoukan if you like. I'm sure she'll be happy to oblige you.
He wasn't trying to engage you in a flamewar. He was just pointing out what a few of us here see quite clearly......you can communicate with the wit and skill of a dingleberry.

I'm not the worst though.

I'd also like to point out that none of you have given anything more to this conversation than lashing out. I guess there isn't much you can say...

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » June 8, 2005, 3:54 pm

How did I lash out?
I gave you what the law is in ohio.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 4:00 pm

Sabek wrote:How did I lash out?
I gave you what the law is in ohio.

No I am sorry I was actually not talking about you. I was talking to those not really discussing the issues, and making ad hominems.

That makes sense.

#2 is a little suspect though. Does that mean they can order an abortion against a minor's wishes?

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » June 8, 2005, 4:04 pm

I would assume if they are in juvie they are a ward of the state at that point.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 4:14 pm

No one lashed out. Becuase someone gives an opinion that differs from yours, it does not constitute lashing out. I feel a parent should be involved in decisions made by a minor. You do not feel that way. You feel a minor is fully capable of grasping the consequences of such a decision, even though they were unable to grasp the consequences of having unprotected sex.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 4:21 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: ...you can communicate with the wit and skill of a dingleberry.

Sylvos wrote: Translation: My name is Lohrno and I'm a fucking idiot.

What did those contribute to the discussion?

Anways, if you don't want to defend your position, or answer my questions, fine that's your perogitive...

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 8, 2005, 4:22 pm

I already stated using a life threatening illness like appendicitus and trying to correllate it to pregnancy was stupid.
I can always tattoo it on your forehead if that helps.
I don't know how else to tell you that.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 4:26 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:No one lashed out. Becuase someone gives an opinion that differs from yours, it does not constitute lashing out. I feel a parent should be involved in decisions made by a minor. You do not feel that way. You feel a minor is fully capable of grasping the consequences of such a decision, even though they were unable to grasp the consequences of having unprotected sex.

It's not just that. You see, if a parent is making such decisions on religious grounds, and the kid does not share the same beliefs, then there is a disrespect of this kid's religious beliefs. (In either case.) It's not just disrespect though as this is a decision that affects the rest of the kid's life. Just because her parents were being stubborn one day, her dreams could potentially be ruined. (On either side. You could say that if she were <some religion that doesn't approve of abortion> and the parent's were atheist and forced her to have an abortion, she might never be able to be a priest because of this.) I figure I'll use this example rather than the typical college dreams just to mix things up a bit.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 4:28 pm

Sylvos wrote:I already stated using a life threatening illness like appendicitus and trying to correllate it to pregnancy was stupid.
I can always tattoo it on your forehead if that helps.
I don't know how else to tell you that.

And I stated that it was a valid comparison because it is a parent made decision that has life changing scope. Just because the consequences are a little different does not make the basic question invalid - Should parents always be able to decide?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 4:38 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:No one lashed out. Becuase someone gives an opinion that differs from yours, it does not constitute lashing out. I feel a parent should be involved in decisions made by a minor. You do not feel that way. You feel a minor is fully capable of grasping the consequences of such a decision, even though they were unable to grasp the consequences of having unprotected sex.
It's not just that. You see, if a parent is making such decisions on religious grounds, and the kid does not share the same beliefs, then there is a disrespect of this kid's religious beliefs. (In either case.) It's not just disrespect though as this is a decision that affects the rest of the kid's life. Just because her parents were being stubborn one day, her dreams could potentially be ruined. (On either side. You could say that if she were <some religion that doesn't approve of abortion> and the parent's were atheist and forced her to have an abortion, she might never be able to be a priest because of this.) I figure I'll use this example rather than the typical college dreams just to mix things up a bit.

Who the fuck are you to tell someone what to base their decisions from? Religion play a big part of many peoples lives. Some use their religions as an excuse to kill innocent civilians, some us it to save young impressionable, impulsive young women not to kill the baby growing inside them. Holy shit! My fucking 8 yr old son can grasp logic and reason better than you.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 4:40 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Who the fuck are you to tell someone what to base their decisions from?

Exactly.

People should not be making life changing decisions for other people based on religion.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 4:56 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Some use their religions as an excuse to kill innocent civilians, some us it to save young impressionable, impulsive young women not to kill the baby growing inside them.

Right, so you see how that could be wrong if the tables were turned like that. Which is why said pregnant girl should decide.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 5:33 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Some use their religions as an excuse to kill innocent civilians, some us it to save young impressionable, impulsive young women not to kill the baby growing inside them.
Right, so you see how that could be wrong if the tables were turned like that. Which is why said pregnant girl should decide.

Holy crap. I can't believe how simple you are. You're Corky from Life Goes On aren't you?

Look up the definition of a minor. You get to make your own decisions when you reach 18 years of age. /boggle

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 5:44 pm

We do this to prevent them from having to make life changing decisions until they are old enough. To prevent them from getting into this situation until they can decide things for themselves.

However, they CAN get pregnant before 18, which forces the issue. So I don't see why if they can get into this situation they can not decide for themselves.

Not letting them make this decision would force their path in life before they could even choose. Don't give me the self-righteous crap about abstinence or taking responsibility for their actions. By definition, taking the choice away from them is taking that responsibility away, as well as making a decision for them that affects their whole life.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » June 8, 2005, 5:45 pm

IMHO, and I know it's not always the case and in some cases may NOT be a good idea, I think the parents should have to give some kind of consent. I'm a parent of 2 boys at this time but should we have another it might be a girl. If my daughter was to get pregnant in HS etc... I would undoubtedly be disappointed in myself and her. Myself for not teaching her well enough and her for making a poor decision... but I would want to know. Hopefully I would have raised her so that she truly felt like she could tell me anything... even something like that. That should begin with proper sex education but I'll leave that for another discussion...

However at that point the deed is done. As I do not believe in abortion I would encourage her not to even consider that. More importantly I would celebrate the fact that I was soon to be a grandfather. Would the circumstances be less than ideal? Most definitely but as her father I would make whatever arrangements necessary so that she could continue HS or College. If that meant me paying for daycare or my wife staying home with the baby once it's born... whatever. Getting pregnant in HS is NOT a good decision but how it's handeled can make all the difference in the world. I highly doubt having all the facts about the emotional distress of an abortion when family is willing to take care of the child that anyone or very few would choose an abortion.

My friends Minister recently told a story about a fellow pastor he went to semainary with, both are very conservative but have different understandings of what Christanity means. Both of them were recently put in the exact same situation with drastically different results. The ministers friend's daughter got pregnant in HS. As a good moral consrevative (and Republican) he promptly disowned her and kicked her out of his house, she was now living with the boys parents... how dare his daughter shame him and his ministry like that.. S E X U A L I N T E R C O U R S E in HS! THE SHAME! While telling proudly what he did, my friends pastor responded that he too had recently been faced with that as well. The bigot noddingly made some statement in regards to the fact that we was sure this person had "handled" it correctly but asked so what did you do? My friends minister responded that he too was angry, sad and regretful that possibly he had not done enough and that his daughter had definitely added some difficulties to his ministry. However he went on to explain that after all the initial crying he called his relatives over to have a celebration. While not the best circumstances, God had given his family a great gift, one which they should celebrate. He then added that in order to finish HS he had already made arrangements for this daughter's baby to addend daycare at the Church he pastors. Needless to say the other minister was shocked and walked away...

I'm not a person, as you all well know, who believes in legislating morality. One of the main problems with that is it's usually the freaks' and hate mongers that want the legislation. The pastor of the other church is the same type of person who has turned many of you against Christanity... IMHO, who wouldn't be when faced with people like that. The truth is that there are TOOOOOO many rightwing fascist ministers out there who "clam" to be doing the work of the Lord and have duped thousands into following them... personally I beleive in formulating my own opinions and will encourage my Children to do the same... I don't "drink the Kool-Aid."

If my answer sounds similar to the story it is as the question was posed to me by my friend to see my response. I'm happy to say I and his minister agreed almost 100% as did he. My Church is located directly behind the HS in the town where I live. Since we moved there in the early 90s we have been providing free daycare for any mothers who get pregnant in HS as long as they keep a "C" average. We also provide other parenting classes as well... to me, that is where Church funds should go. Which of course is one of the reasons we go there

We can argue all we want but the abortion issue almost always boils down to religion and when life begins. What is sad though is that not all of those people truly believe the same way.

The final point being that until they are 18 I'm responsible for them, I took that on when my wife and I decided to have kids.

Cheers!
Marb

cid · Post by **cid** » June 8, 2005, 5:47 pm

Go make another apology thread.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 6:01 pm

Lohrno wrote:We do this to prevent them from having to make life changing decisions until they are old enough. To prevent them from getting into this situation until they can decide things for themselves.

However, they CAN get pregnant before 18, which forces the issue. So I don't see why if they can get into this situation they can not decide for themselves.

Not letting them make this decision would force their path in life before they could even choose. Don't give me the self-righteous crap about abstinence or taking responsibility for their actions. By definition, taking the choice away from them is taking that responsibility away, as well as making a decision for them that affects their whole life.

Please use your self portrait as your avatar. You don't deserve hiding behind your anime guy.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 6:12 pm

But you still don't make any counter arguments... Why should a minor not be allowed to make a decision that will affect the rest of their life when they get pregnant?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » June 8, 2005, 6:21 pm

Lohrno wrote:But you still don't make any counter arguments... Why should a minor not be allowed to make a decision that will affect the rest of their life when they get pregnant?

Because they are a minor? Jesus Christ man. Are you fucking for real?

Why can't a 13 year old decide to quit school? Answer that Corky.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » June 8, 2005, 6:21 pm

BECAUSE THEY ARE A MINOR, THAT IS WHY.
THE FUCKING LAW SAYS SO, THAT IS WHY.
WHY DO YOU NOT GET THIS?
YOU ARE NOT A STUPID MAN FFS.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 6:27 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Because they are a minor? Jesus Christ man. Are you fucking for real?

Why can't a 13 year old decide to quit school? Answer that Corky.

That was my point before. We TRY to shield them from these decisions for a while. When they are not pregnant, there is no problem. But when they are, a decision HAS to be made. This decision will affect the rest of their life. So if a decision HAS to be made, why should their parents have the power to potentially ruin the rest of their life and wreck their dreams?

Like say Sally was a straight A student in HS. She just got accepted into Harvard. Some sick fuck rapes her on the way home from school. She cannot now support a Harvard education due to time and money constraints if she carries it through. She wants to have an abortion. Her parents are right wing nutjobs and forbid it.

Is that right?

Fash · Post by **Fash** » June 8, 2005, 6:38 pm

people love to blame one 'mistake' if your life, and demand you to pay for it eternally...

going with the example of a 15 year old, who fooled around with a kid from school and got pregnant.... if you expect this 15 year old to properly accept this 'sentence', and become a wonderful parent, you've got another thing coming. you're dooming the baby to a mistreated life, and you've ruined the girls life entirely.

what's up with the adoption machine in this country?.. why can we not come up with an EASY way for unwanted pregnancies to become precious miracles for unfertile couples?

i don't want to be a baby killer.. but i also don't want to be an adult killer either... and that's what all this infants rights shit has done, protected worthless fetuses, and locked up valuable adults... WTG !

Post by **Sylvus** » June 8, 2005, 8:00 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Lohrno wrote:But you still don't make any counter arguments... Why should a minor not be allowed to make a decision that will affect the rest of their life when they get pregnant?
Because they are a minor? Jesus Christ man. Are you fucking for real?

Why can't a 13 year old decide to quit school? Answer that Corky.

A 16 year old can decide to quit school. The girl in question was 17. Perhaps I'm not seeing the bigger picture though.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » June 8, 2005, 8:03 pm

Hence my the point of my story which I take it some of you didn't read.

As a parent you are responsible until they are 18 BECAUSE they don't know how it will effect the rest of their life. Hell I was President of everything in HS, on a City committee, National Merit, respected and trusted by pretty much everyone in the community to do whatever and while I thought I knew much more than 90% of my peers about life, which who knows - maybe I did, I still didn't know jack shit compared to today. Remember that most parents have had double the life experiences of their children by time they are 18... and that makes a difference.

Now do I believe some children are more knowledgeable and smarter than their parents no matter what age? Yes. I definitely knew some people's parents that didn't have a clue then, and still don't today... people who mistakenly lead their children down the wrong path but in general... that's not the case. In most cases if the parents don't have a clue the kid definitely dosen't have a clue and in those cases age and life experiences again win out.

Bottom line is that a good lesson to learn or teach a child is that parents aren't a stupid and you will one day think. As a parent, it's your job to look out for them and not be stupid.

Marb

PS - As my wife and I tried for years before getting pregnant I think Adoption is a great idea as well. There ARE many couples out there who can provide a good loving environment but are unable to have kids.

cid · Post by **cid** » June 8, 2005, 8:25 pm

When my daughter turns 16 she can go get her drivers licenses. She can then go drive her car thru the front of a mall causing thousands of dollars of damage. Yet I am held responsible!!
Why?

[Show]: She is a minor

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » June 8, 2005, 8:29 pm

cid wrote:When my daughter turns 16 she can go get her drivers licenses. She can then go drive her car thru the front of a mall causing thousands of dollars of damage. Ye, I am held responsible!!
Why?

[Show]
She is a minor

Well who else are they going to get compensated from? It's not like she owns anything other than the car. (And maybe not even.)

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » June 8, 2005, 8:40 pm

Look up the definition of a minor. You get to make your own decisions when you reach 18 years of age. /boggle

The definition of a minor in this country is so fucked up. You can drive a possible lethal weapon from the age of 16. You can drop out of school at 16. You have have sex at what, 16? Yet you can't make your own decissions until you are 18? Not have a beer until 21?

Ridiculous.