6-3-2005 2 more Iraqi children

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

and 20+ other civilians dead in wave of insurgent attacks on their own people.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/06/ ... index.html

[miir]

The attacker was trying to hit a U.S. diplomatic convoy entering the Arafa complex of the Northern Oil Co. but missed and damaged three civilian cars, said Maj. Gen. Anwar Mohammed Amin.

In Baquba, northeast of Baghdad, a suicide car bomb killed Hussein Alwan al-Thamimi, a deputy head of the city's governing council, police said. Three of his bodyguards also were killed.

The violence continued Friday with a noontime blast targeting a U.S. military convoy in western Baghdad. It missed the convoy but wounded at least four civilians and damaged several shops, Iraqi police said.

Seems like the insurgent attacks are now targetting specific military and political targets.

[Winnow]

I'm sorry Kilmoll but there was an American soldier within a half mile of this incident.

If Iraq attacked the United States they'd probably end up missing our entire country and kill Canadians.

This should help our cause in Iraq as the Iraqi citizens are definately more scared of their own people or resident terrorists than the U.S. when it comes to dying.

[miir]

insurgent attacks on their own people

Just like Saddam gassed "his own people", right?

[Niffoni]

Better luck tomorrow!

[Voronwë]

in the spirit of saving time: 691 Iraqis were killed in May by insurgents per the Iraqi government.

[Winnow]

in the spirit of saving time: 691 Iraqis were killed in May by insurgents per the Iraqi government.

All killed by US soldiers according to Lohrno!

[Aslanna]

It's true!

[miir]

What have the american forces occupying Iraq been doing to quell this recent flurry of insurgent attacks?

It's obvious the Iraqi security forces don't have the resources or skills to handle the insurgents, seeing as this recent deluge of attacks has coincided with the commencement of the much-advertised, attempted 'crackdown' by the Iraqi forces on the insurgents.


Hasn't been any real good news from Iraq since the 'elections' 4+ months ago.

[Winnow]

What have the american forces occupying Iraq been doing to quell this recent flurry of insurgent attacks?

It's obvious the Iraqi security forces don't have the resources or skills to handle the insurgents, seeing as this recent deluge of attacks has coincided with the commencement of the much-advertised, attempted 'crackdown' by the Iraqi forces on the insurgents.


Hasn't been any real good news from Iraq since the 'elections' 4+ months ago.

It's clear we need Canada's help.

[Niffoni]

These posts are valuable tools to educate us that in the middle east, people sometimes die.

Help us, Bono! You're our only hope!

[Sylvus]

Anyone have real numbers on how many Iraqi children are now collateral damage due to the US forces being there?

The point is that too many children are dead, who gives a fuck who killed them. The insurgents are going about achieving their goals in a way that I personally do not agree with, but it is because the United States is occupying Iraq.

I can look at the situation from both sides, why can't the rest of you? Insurgents are fighting for a cause they believe is right, the United States is fighting for a cause that... well, I won't say we believe is right, but some of you and most of our administration do. We are a military juggernaut, they are not. As such, they have to resort to tactics that don't seem right to many of us, but I can understand how - when faced with overwhelming odds - one might be forced to use tactics that seem "dirty" to his opponents.

So given that both sides feel the need to fight, and that both sides have definitely killed innocent people, why the fuck are you people arguing about which is more evil?

What's the point of your daily post, kilmoll, was someone else trying to troll you that hard? Or were they responding, in a thread, with their viewpoint. You're being kind of a douchebag!

[Winnow]

The thing is, whether the US is there or not, there will be a bunch of killing in Iraq. Saddam is out and jsut about everyone is happy with that...who replaces him will be a source for bloodshed for years to come. You have religious factions in Iraq that despise each other.

When the US leaves...you can quote me...it will be all the United States fault why huge numbers of Iraqis continue to die afterwards which is bullshit...newsflash...they died in greater numbers with Saddam in power...well unless you were kissing Saddam's ass and not a Kurd.

I am bothered by people that instantly jump on the United States like it's their fault. Sure, we're there for oil security first and foremost but the US at least has given the Iraqi people a chance to fight for a government that isn't a total civilian slaughtering dictatorship. The civil war/turmoil was bound to happen with or without the United States but at least it will be internal and Saddam and company won't be invading other countries.

[Lohrno]

in the spirit of saving time: 691 Iraqis were killed in May by insurgents per the Iraqi government.

All killed by US soldiers according to Lohrno!

When did I say that?

I said that we have to assume some responsibility because we started this shit.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

My point? My point has been that we do not condone actions and will put our own people on trial for committing actions that these people not only condone, but use as a standard method. These insurgents are not engaging in civil war. They are engaging in terrorism and do not care if it is Iraqis they kill.

Someone in particular called american soldiers murderers....yet that same idiot has not made a single comment accusing these insurgents of being the same. When that troll comes out to put that same label on these terrorist asshats, then I won't need to keep throwing this out there. That or ban me for voicing views that are not anti-American. I sure as hell don't see you calling out these liberal assholes for their anti-American threads.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Anyone have real numbers on how many Iraqi children are now collateral damage due to the US forces being there?

Yes, please! Let's bring this back to the US. It's very important to keep the focus on the US and evil they do. It is not important to show that during a war innocents will die, period. It's important only to focus in on and make a big deal over US caused innocents dying. The US is evil and we just cannot allow people to be fooled into thinking any differently.

[Aslanna]

Murderers!

[cid]

Baby Killerz!!

[Niffoni]

Stop it. You're hurting their feewings.

[Lohrno]

Yes, please! Let's bring this back to the US. It's very important to keep the focus on the US and evil they do. It is not important to show that during a war innocents will die, period. It's important only to focus in on and make a big deal over US caused innocents dying. The US is evil and we just cannot allow people to be fooled into thinking any differently.

I just hope you all realize that we shouldn't be repeating this kind of thing. We literally went to war for no good reason. Even the reason for going to war with North Vietnam was better.

[Forthe]

My point? My point has been that we do not condone actions and will put our own people on trial for committing actions that these people not only condone, but use as a standard method. These insurgents are not engaging in civil war. They are engaging in terrorism and do not care if it is Iraqis they kill.

I agree the insurgents should prosecute their soldiers as well. Loss of rank and discharges for the worst offenders. Your military courts are not something I would be proud of.

Someone in particular called american soldiers murderers....yet that same idiot has not made a single comment accusing these insurgents of being the same. When that troll comes out to put that same label on these terrorist asshats, then I won't need to keep throwing this out there. That or ban me for voicing views that are not anti-American. I sure as hell don't see you calling out these liberal assholes for their anti-American threads.

The difference is the Iraqis (not the foreign fighters) have a right to resist and revolution. Iraqis killing Iraqis sucks but civil war is a sovereign issue. The US has no such right, you are intruding on Iraqi sovereignty with no justification.

You keep referring to insurgents as terrorists but they are attacking legit targets. The civilian deaths suck but given the tools of war the insurgents have it is kind of hard to expect more precision. If a surgeon was expected to operate with a kitchen knife I wouldn't hold the surgeon up to the same standard as one using the proper equipment.

[Sylvus]

I sure as hell don't see you calling out these liberal assholes for their anti-American threads.

Just for kicks, pick out a few threads in the first page of posts in the CE forum that were posted by the liberal assholes for the direct purpose of starting shit with you (like you're doing here). I don't see any. I do see quite a few threads that got turned into another direction after someone posted an opinion that other people disagreed with, and that fosters discussion, which I like. Have you seen me step into a thread where I didn't like someone's opinion and told them to change their opinion or they would be moderated? No.

What I don't like is someone spamming the same thread everyday, which is what you're doing. Quit it, or I'll lock/delete/move them as I see fit. Cry about it if you want, I'm past the point of really giving a shit. I'd do the same thing to anyone who was posting the exact same fucking thread every day, regardless of what the topic is.

If you haven't learned yet from my responses to your threads, I don't agree with either side on this issue, so I'm not really taking one. I think you're all being pretty fucking stupid.

Yes, please! Let's bring this back to the US. It's very important to keep the focus on the US and evil they do. It is not important to show that during a war innocents will die, period. It's important only to focus in on and make a big deal over US caused innocents dying. The US is evil and we just cannot allow people to be fooled into thinking any differently.

You honestly cannot read and comprehend even one simple five-paragraph post, can you? I posted one line to make the point that BOTH SIDES HAVE DONE SHITTY THINGS. Nowhere in my post do I attack America, nor do I defend the insurgents. You are the biggest blowhard I've ever had the displeasure of engaging in debate. Full of sound and fury about how you're so enlightened and you see the bigger picture, yet you can't even grasp one simple opinion that deviates in the slightest from your own. It's really quite pathetic, you should stop making unfounded claims about yourself.

[cid]

The US has no such right, you are intruding on Iraqi sovereignty with no justification.

Justificaton = oil

Winnow summed it up nicely in one of these threads.

[miir]

That's an excuse, not justification.

[Lohrno]

But the money spent on said war if spent on research and development of non-oil dependent technologies would be just as if not more effective. Plus, a lot 1800 soldiers would not be dead.

[Voronwë]

That's an excuse, not justification.

a better word than either of those is rationale.

there have been many conflicts waged because military and political leaders felt it was necessary to increase their leverage over critical resources within, without, or adjacent to their territories.

[Sueven]

"Oil" is not the answer in the sense that we did not invade solely to obtain oil. It is intimately connected with the reasons for the invasion.

We invaded because the Middle East, like it or not, is important (see: oil). It is likely that, in the future, actions that transpire in the Middle East will have a significant impact on the state of the USA and the international system as a whole. The invasion of Iraq was performed in an attempt to shape the future of the Middle East into the form that is maximally beneficial to the United States and the current international order. For instance, we want Middle Eastern countries to participate in international organizations, we want them to follow our outline of diplomacy and so on.

Saying that the war is 'illegal' may or may not be true, but is really basically irrelevant given the shaky status of international law at this point. Making a claim based on ethics would be far more logical, but simply pointing out that atrocity, destruction, and death exist is not in itself sufficient to show that a war is unethical.

[cid]

But the money spent on said war if spent on research and development of non-oil dependent technologies would be just as if not more effective. Plus, a lot 1800 soldiers would not be dead.

I agree 100% with what you said.

Look at how many deaths there are contributed to tobacco each year, but there is too much money in it for anything to be done about it. It can be said about oil also.

I do not agree with this at all, but what can we do about it..

Economics 101

[Winnow]

You keep referring to insurgents as terrorists but they are attacking legit targets. The civilian deaths suck but given the tools of war the insurgents have it is kind of hard to expect more precision. If a surgeon was expected to operate with a kitchen knife I wouldn't hold the surgeon up to the same standard as one using the proper equipment.

What I'd do is let the US help get the government started so you can get something better than a kitchen knife as a weapon and also have better hospitals to treat you if you decide to go the normal route instead of suicide route...or at least be considerate of the civilians you'll be killing and let some decent hospitals be built along with decent food supplies, etc.

But after that, maybe the people wouldn't be so gung ho for your fanatical ways (I doubt Iraqi civilians are gung ho about it even now) because things would be much better and citizens would actually have a chance to start their lives again.

[Forthe]

You keep referring to insurgents as terrorists but they are attacking legit targets. The civilian deaths suck but given the tools of war the insurgents have it is kind of hard to expect more precision. If a surgeon was expected to operate with a kitchen knife I wouldn't hold the surgeon up to the same standard as one using the proper equipment.

What I'd do is let the US help get the government started so you can get something better than a kitchen knife as a weapon and also have better hospitals to treat you if you decide to go the normal route instead of suicide route...or at least be considerate of the civilians you'll be killing and let some decent hospitals be built along with decent food supplies, etc.

But after that, maybe the people wouldn't be so gung ho for your fanatical ways (I doubt Iraqi civilians are gung ho about it even now) because things would be much better and citizens would actually have a chance to start their lives again.

Let the US help is your perspective == let the US impose itself on you is probably theirs.

Fanatical ways? I haven't seen anything reported on the insurgents political goals other than driving the US out. There is all the Allah is good, great, better than sliced bread stuff but that is just rhetoric like the freedom, freedom, we love freedom - they hate freedom (apparently they want to be slaves) democracy stuff we get from the other side.

Infrastructure would improve if they stopped fighting but that is always the case. Do you think the Afghanistan rebels would reflect back today and wish they had stopped fighting?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

I sure as hell don't see you calling out these liberal assholes for their anti-American threads.

Just for kicks, pick out a few threads in the first page of posts in the CE forum that were posted by the liberal assholes for the direct purpose of starting shit with you (like you're doing here). I don't see any.

Okee dokee

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=14547

He used to be in the Labour Party (Tony Blair's party) but was expelled before the illegal war on Iraq

Essentially, Galloway causes headaches for those intent on the murder of innocent children in the name of Freedom.

http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=14491


http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=14418

I guess we can't get into how many threads they jumped on to wreck....and we all know the 3 or 4 who I am talking about.

[Niffoni]

I understand where you're coming from, Kilmol, but I think you misread Sylvus' post.

for the direct purpose of starting shit with you (like you're doing here).

Someone like in the posts you cited might use inflamitory or exaggerated language to prod those on the opposite side of the turd-slinging fence to respond, but their posts are still actually ABOUT something, and make at least some effort to start genuine discussion about SOMETHING, and are not purely made for the purpose of garnering attention, wasting people's time, or to be antagonizing (successful or not).

I think that's the difference.

I personally couldn't care less. The only thing funnier than listening to the frothing liberal responses is watching you pretend you give a rat's ass about civilians dying.

[Sylvus]

I really think you're not looking at this objectively. On all of the threads "they jumped on to wreck", it could be argued that the opposite end of the belief spectrum posted those threads to bait the same as in the few links you posted. The difference being that there are a lot more threads started by the "right".

That said, my problem is still with you posting the same thread every day and not with its content. I admittedly don't care for the content, but if you'll notice I didn't say shit the first time you posted it.

[Winnow]

Fanatical ways? I haven't seen anything reported on the insurgents political goals other than driving the US out. There is all the Allah is good, great, better than sliced bread stuff but that is just rhetoric like the freedom, freedom, we love freedom - they hate freedom (apparently they want to be slaves) democracy stuff we get from the other side.

That's just it. They have no goals. The U.S. provided the opportunity for free elections. How is that bad? The insurgents basically have a short term goal of removing the United States...then what? It's back to blaiming the rest of the world for their troubles and supporting global terrorism.

Step aside and let the U.S. do its thing. We're good at rebuilding countries like Germany and Japan. Those people weren't killing their own people in droves though like idiots.

Besides the oil thing, the US must keep the safety of the continental United States a priority. I think the whole goal here is to be sure that Iraqis are killing Iraqis and not focused on external things. Iran is capable of occupying Iraq at this point. They've had a long time to rebuild after the last Iran/Iraq war. If the US exits, someone is going to fill the hole and if it's Iran, we haven't really made the Middle East more secure for our oil.

A really smart Iraq would accept all aid the US offers and get rich off of their oil again. It's not a religious thing. We could care less about that save for anything that has to do with flying planes into our buildings. There is nothing stopping Iraq from making tons of money again off of oil and enjoying their religions ways inside their own country. There's enough money for all factions...the problem is that those internal factions won't be settling their differences any time soon...so it's back the the US protecting its interests the hard way.

[Winnow]

I really think you're not looking at this objectively. On all of the threads "they jumped on to wreck", it could be argued that the opposite end of the belief spectrum posted those threads to bait the same as in the few links you posted. The difference being that there are a lot more threads started by the "right".

I'd say it was pretty clear that kyoukan jumped into my thread regarding the doctor relating his experiences in Iraq to flame away.

[miir]

That's just it. They have no goals.

Their goals are very close to those of your country's administration.

[Sylvus]

I really think you're not looking at this objectively. On all of the threads "they jumped on to wreck", it could be argued that the opposite end of the belief spectrum posted those threads to bait the same as in the few links you posted. The difference being that there are a lot more threads started by the "right".

I'd say it was pretty clear that kyoukan jumped into my thread regarding the doctor relating his experiences in Iraq to flame away.

You misunderstand. Kilmoll provided examples of threads he thought were flame bait. He also said that people jump on other threads and wreck them. I proposed that said other threads could be viewed as the mirror image of the flame bait threads, just coming from the other side.

Does that make sense now?

[Winnow]

I understand the text that is coming out of your keyboard if you were referring to specifically the threads Killmol cited.

The example I gave was to point out that liberals jump on threads that aren't politically motivated to flame and are in no way more innocent than the conservatives on this board when it comes to that.

[Sylvus]

I understand the text that is coming out of your keyboard if you were referring to specifically the threads Killmol cited.

The example I gave was to point out that liberals jump on threads that aren't politically motivated to flame and are in no way more innocent than the conservatives on this board when it comes to that.

Oh, well I never said that they were more innocent, so I don't know why you were refuting it!

[Voronwë]

because winnow is hard wired to be argumentative no matter what he is posting aboot!

[Winnow]

because winnow is hard wired to be argumentative no matter what he is posting aboot!

No I'm not!

Check out the hardware from the debate team!*



*random picture off the net!

[Nick]

No one's feelings are getting hurt.

If we (by which I mean the anti murder 'brigade') had decided to post everytime one of your fucking gun crazy murdering soldier assholes killed an innocent person then the CE forum would be spammed to teh point of a server crash.

Go ahead and amuse yourself dickheads, you're the fuckers who are gonna have another 9/11 on your hands.

Well done.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Go ahead and amuse yourself dickheads, you're the fuckers who are gonna have another 9/11 on your hands.

Well done.

With people like you to continue to feed the hatred for the greatest nation in the world, yes, we sure will have another 9/11. It is only a matter of time before a stupid, hate-filled, religious wacko goes and commits another horrid act of terrorism on the US of A. I bet you can't wait either. What a giggle you will get when you first hear of the news. You sick hypocritical fuck.

[Nick]

I won't get a giggle.

I won't be surprised.

[Lohrno]

With people like you to continue to feed the hatred for the greatest nation in the world, yes, we sure will have another 9/11. It is only a matter of time before a stupid, hate-filled, religious wacko goes and commits another horrid act of terrorism on the US of A. I bet you can't wait either. What a giggle you will get when you first hear of the news. You sick hypocritical fuck.

Yep, it's the liberal's fault again...

Because we're all in with the muslim fundies.

Liberals are the communists of the 21st century.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Liberals are the communists of the 21st century.

I agree.

[Metanis]

Liberals are the communists of the 21st century.

I agree.

No, communists were smarter and had better intentions.

[Nick]

IS THIS TEH MENSA MEETING ?!?!!?

[Zamtuk]

It is only a matter of time before a stupid, hate-filled, religious wacko goes and commits another horrid act of terrorism on the US of A. I bet you can't wait either. What a giggle you will get when you first hear of the news. You sick hypocritical fuck.

Like you have any fucking room to talk you dumbshit. With classic one liners as "Fuck Muslims" and your blind faith to W, who is as religous as it gets, how can you say that with a clear mind? You really don't get it do you? Over in Iraq, the 'insurgents' are probably saying the exact same thing about us. And when it comes to people like you, they are spot on.

To clarify, because it is necessary to do so, the same thing you said about them, can be said about you. (of course switch US of A with Iraq)

[Metanis]

I can look at the situation from both sides, why can't the rest of you? Insurgents are fighting for a cause they believe is right, the United States is fighting for a cause that... well, I won't say we believe is right, but some of you and most of our administration do.

If you truly look at the situation from both sides and you cannot fathom the incredible difference in the legitamacy of each side then you sir are an idiot.

1) Study the stated objectives of each side.
2) Study the methods used by each side.
2) Review the history of each side's treatment of prisoners.

No contest in understanding unless you are a close-minded anti-Muslim racist who believes they should be ruled by tyrants and dictatorial religious fanatics.