Affirmative Action

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

so as not to derail another thread...

The US Government knew a large majority of the US workforce would not greet Afirmative Action with chocolates and flowers, but they forced it into action because they knew it was the right thing to do.

It's a derail, but ... can I assume from this, "knew it was the right thing to do" is the new euphemism for "poorly thought out reactionary policy that has proven over time not to work"?

It hasn't worked? Take a walk through the 100 largest corporations in America and see if it hasn't worked. Look again another 25 years from now.

Look back at the way people spoke about blacks in the workplace 20 years ago. Look back and see what kind of positions blacks held in business. Look back and see what they were being paid. Then look now. Then look again 25 years from now.

BIG PICTURE....it's getting old, because you continue not to view it. Be positive! Look at the good, as well as the bad.

The old racist white men who ran, and probably still are running many of todays big businesses have been forced to employ blacks. They have been forced to see blacks can do anything white or anyone else can do. By forcing them to do so, you change their behavior, by changing their behavior, you then eventually change their mindset.

It's no different than the gay movement in America. They have been forcing down everyones throats for years now. It is becoming more and more acceptable everyday. Why is it that it is more acceptable today than it was 20 years ago? Why? You need to ask these questions. Exposure is the answer. You force acceptance, then it changes the way people feel.

Every time a policy changes in a business, all the employees bitch and moan. At first it takes them forever to remember this new procedural policy change. They hate it. Then they just think about every now and then. Then after time, everyone conforms and it becomes everyday practice.

Come on. None of this is any different than what is going on in Iraq. They are forcing a behavior.... a mind set. It will take a long ass time. But, hopefully, in the end the middle east can move away from being such a violent murderous society. Maybe with forcing democracy and technology on these people, over time they will move further and further away from religion thereby moving further and further away from these insane stances against other religions and societies. Etc, etc, etc.

[Lohrno]

Come on. None of this is any different than what is going on in Iraq. They are forcing a behavior.... a mind set.

Sounds like brainwashing.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Come on. None of this is any different than what is going on in Iraq. They are forcing a behavior.... a mind set.

Sounds like brainwashing.

It most definitely is a form of it yes. But, if you look at the good it has done you don't have to toss it out the window like a shallow minded person would, but realize that in reality it has its purpose.

[Lohrno]

Well, who is to say that the decisions that we make or try to make for them are the best ones? Doesn't sound like we respect their free will very much...

BTW I think AA needs to go. It's kind of a form of racism...

[Lohrno]

I think we should have let them make most of the decisions and offered help in ways we can. That way it would have been less like a puppet government, and we would see less insurgent attacks. Also it would have bought us foreign relations points with most of the rest of the world.

Instead of trying to convince them that they should be living a certain way of life.

[Kelshara]

Affirmative action is a failure. The money should have been spent on giving equal opportunity, not move the advantage the opposite direction. Same goes for equality between sexes. Equal chance, equal opportunity.. and let the best person win from that.

[Winnow]

Pregnant women should be fired and not allowed to return.

A recently returned mother after giving child birth uses a conference room across the hall from my office to milk herself each morning to use later. Good god. Would it be rude if I still drank coffee to ask for some cream? Can't she do that in a toilet stall or something!?

I guess it's ok...out of sight, out of mind!

[Zaelath]

Yeah, great, there's a few token negros in corporate America now. Time to have a party and celebrate your tolerance and diversity.

If you removed the forcible hiring policies today, a lot of those people would be given the arse, and a lot fewer hired. You have not changed anyone's mindset. Add to that, quota systems force people into the rediculous position of being awarded positions that they're not capable of fulfilling, which means you end up with people resenting that they work for an apparent fool. Great way to improve their image.

The other end of the problem is the wealth does not flow down from the rich negros to the poor. Rich negros move the hell out of the projects, they might as well be a different race for all they associate with "their people" after they "make it".

It's not the same with asians, for example. They're just as discriminated against as blacks but they have a far greater sense of community and keeping their wealth within their community, traditionally have a better work ethic as well, though that is eroded the more they attempt to fit in with ya'll.

I'm sure Token and his/her family appreciate the lifestyle AA has gifted them, but it has no discernable lasting effect. You have quite a few rich blacks in the US, but no wealthy ones. First philanthropic negro to really hit it big is going to shake your world more than 9/11.

Beyond all that, the only way to not be discriminatory is to NOT discriminate. That means not give university places and jobs to those less qualified because they're black, hispanic, or white. But it also means not fund schools differently, not be more concerned about one white death than 100 blacks.

And you know you are, as a country, still far more interested in white issues than black issues. When is the last time you saw lengthy media coverage where the black was the victim (other than Rodney King, and look where that got you)? and yet, "Young black men in Los Angeles County for years have been far more likely to be murdered than anyone else. Four times more likely than young Latinos. Eighteen times more likely than young white men." http://www.streetgangs.com/topics/2003/012603black.html

Winnow: Oh yes, I know Australia has it's share of problems w/ our indiginous peoples. AA wouldn't fix theirs either.

[cid]

Yeah, great, there's a few token negros in corporate America now.

How many are in the prison system?

[Zaelath]

Yeah, great, there's a few token negros in corporate America now.

How many are in the prison system?

That just brings on another rant about the drugs prohibition and rediculous sentencing laws being designed to trap negros in prison in ever increasing numbers =/

[Drasta]

the white male is the most discriminated against person in america!

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

the white male is the most discriminated against person in america!

Currently, yes. But, as much as I don't like it, I think it is a necessary evil. It helps balance the injustices of the past.

[Drasta]

and how long as we supposed to pay for the past? forever ... they need to get the fuck over it and move on with their lives.....

[Nick]

AA is stupid, as Zealath said, you wanna stop descrimination, stop discriminating, this is not a solely US issue, it's a worldwide one.

[sarlen]

AA is stupid, as Zealath said, you wanna stop descrimination, stop discriminating, this is not a solely US issue, it's a worldwide one.

AA is nothing more then an excuse to discriminate against white men. The HR director at my current company sums it up well "since your a white male under 55 I can fire you for anything or nothing on a whim, but if you were black or a woman and I didn’t have a file a foot think on you we would be in court and the company would only have only 1 in 20 chance of winning".

That just brings on another rant about the drugs prohibition and rediculous sentencing laws being designed to trap negros in prison in ever increasing numbers =/

I use to live in a pretty bad neighborhood in Baltimore, some here may be familiar with Prestman street area right off of MLK drive. Every day on my way to work most of the guys from the area would sit in an open area next to the apartment building we all lived in and drink, get high and generally waist the day away. They were all in the same spots when I got home from work 11 hours later. The topic that dominated the group was how whitie had fucked them their entire lives and how welfare should pay more. These were the guys I avoided talking to or even looking at.


At the other end of the spectrum the complex had about 5 guys like me, young, dumb, and under qualified for almost any job BUT they HAD jobs and went to them every day. These were the guys that I talked to and hung out with. The difference between the 5 guys and the gaggle of guys out side was someone for got to tell the 5 guys its all whities fault and they didn’t need to work. The guys out side were so hung up on blaming everyone but them selves for their misfortune they let life pass them by, and because they apparently had nothing to live for they did stupid shit that brought them more misfortune. I don’t care what race, color or sex you are if you do stupid shit you deserve the punishment.

Before I left Baltimore 2 of the 5 guys were going to night school and one of the guys from the crew out front was dead and another doing a few years for beating up his girl friend. To me, the 5 guys proved you cant stereotype people because of their color, obviously these guys wanted to succeed in life and they were going to do it no matter what, and the guys out front wanted nothing more then hand outs and pity. People like Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton convinced these guys that the white man owed them something and it was ok to not do what society expected of them as citizens.

There is discrimination in almost every part of America that I have been to, there is no denying that. The black people I know and have known that were able to let go of the hate and stop believing society owed them something are all productive citizens that had the same opportunities that most of the other black men their age had. The difference is they went out and took life by the nuts and staked their claim, while others (the majority) sit idly by waiting for society to hand to them what most of us have to work hard for.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

AA is stupid, as Zealath said, you wanna stop descrimination, stop discriminating, this is not a solely US issue, it's a worldwide one.

LOL

You can't just change a mindset overnight. The fact that you cannot understand this is absurdly funny.

[Deward]

I have always been against AA personally because I don't think that any person should be rewarded based on race. American politicians have learned how to cury the minority vote by giving out entitlements to poor people. Giving people money does not empower that person to do better. Growing up my mother raised four kids on welfare. She got a measly $500 per month plus a couple hundred for food stamps. It was only years later that they actually decided to support further education for welfare recipients. I don't have a big problem helping poor people out but that help needs to come in job training and education programs and jobs to make these people more self sufficient. There are jobs out there for anyone who wants them. A lot of these jobs really suck ass like fast food or factories but these people have been getting it free for so many generations that they have no work ethic anymore.

AA was certainly necesary 30 years ago but in most areas of the country it is no longer necesary. The south will always need it.

[Niffoni]

I've always been of the mind that poor, lazy, defective people should get similar gutless coddling (welfare) that rich, lazy, defective people have always gotten (inheritance, nepotism).

For some reason, I haven't gotten a lot of requests to "give talks to the kids" though, so maybe that's not a very popular opinion.

[Zaelath]

AA is stupid, as Zealath said, you wanna stop descrimination, stop discriminating, this is not a solely US issue, it's a worldwide one.

LOL

You can't just change a mindset overnight. The fact that you cannot understand this is absurdly funny.

However, that you don't see that the two aren't related is even more humerous. Jackass.

[Sylvos]

AA was certainly necesary 30 years ago but in most areas of the country it is no longer necesary. The south will always need it.

Wrong.
There is no need for AA in any way,shape or form. You want a state that could use it? Try the poor fucking mexicans in california and oregon, the South has integrated race just fine in every environment. Wisconson? Do you even have black people up there or just black cows? AA is outdated and just another way to further seperate man based on the colour of his skin.

[cid]

AA was certainly necesary 30 years ago but in most areas of the country it is no longer necesary. The south will always need it.

Wrong.
There is no need for AA in any way,shape or form. You want a state that could use it? Try the poor fucking mexicans in california and oregon, the South has integrated race just fine in every environment. Wisconson? Do you even have black people up there or just black cows? AA is outdated and just another way to further seperate man based on the colour of his skin.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

AA was certainly necesary 30 years ago but in most areas of the country it is no longer necesary. The south will always need it.

Wrong.
There is no need for AA in any way,shape or form. You want a state that could use it? Try the poor fucking mexicans in california and oregon, the South has integrated race just fine in every environment. Wisconson? Do you even have black people up there or just black cows? AA is outdated and just another way to further seperate man based on the colour of his skin.

LOL

You guys are funny. You get upset and disgusted about inequalities, but discount all past and current efforts to fix them.

[Sylvus]

Affirmative Action is a flawed system that can just as easily breed resentment as it can acceptance. I am against AA based on race, if anything I think it should be based on the average income and quality of education and social services in the area that you come from.

Being black doesn't necessarily always put you at a disadvantage just as being white doesn't have to put you at an advantage. Being poor and coming from a poor area is the real disadvantage. Joe Dirt from East St. Louis is probably going to have a tougher time than Carlton Banks from Bel Air.

That said, I don't really have a concrete solution for replacing Affirmative Action, and it looks like we're stuck with it for a while.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Affirmative Action is a flawed system that can just as easily breed resentment as it can acceptance. I am against AA based on race, if anything I think it should be based on the average income and quality of education and social services in the area that you come from.

Being black doesn't necessarily always put you at a disadvantage just as being white doesn't have to put you at an advantage. Being poor and coming from a poor area is the real disadvantage. Joe Dirt from East St. Louis is probably going to have a tougher time than Carlton Banks from Bel Air.

That said, I don't really have a concrete solution for replacing Affirmative Action, and it looks like we're stuck with it for a while.

AA has already done its work. Time is now doing the rest.

[Sylvos]

LOL

You guys are funny. You get upset and disgusted about inequalities, but discount all past and current efforts to fix them.

AA is not a fix, education is. Teaching your children not to hate based on race, creed or colour is a fix. AA is a nice way of insuring we can isolate qualified individuals from jobs they need without using things like education, experience, intelligence, etc.. to actually determine if they get a job or not rather than "we have to hire at least 1 black and one latino to meet our AA quota".

Unfortunately, we do not have a system in place now and are heavily dependant upon parents like yourself (*sigh*) to teach that racial intolerance is wrong. So, not surprisingly the message is still not getting across. Maybe in another 30 years where employers have to hire X number of white people to make sure they have a white person in the office or make sure that they have at least 1 white ,1 jew and 1 asian working for company can they see what went wrong.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

LOL

You guys are funny. You get upset and disgusted about inequalities, but discount all past and current efforts to fix them.

AA is not a fix, education is. Teaching your children not to hate based on race, creed or colour is a fix. AA is a nice way of insuring we can isolate qualified individuals from jobs they need without using things like education, experience, intelligence, etc.. to actually determine if they get a job or not rather than "we have to hire at least 1 black and one latino to meet our AA quota".

Unfortunately, we do not have a system in place now and are heavily dependant upon parents like yourself (*sigh*) to teach that racial intolerance is wrong. So, not surprisingly the message is still not getting across. Maybe in another 30 years where employers have to hire X number of white people to make sure they have a white person in the office or make sure that they have at least 1 white ,1 jew and 1 asian working for company can they see what went wrong.

And how do you suppose you would get parents to teach their children this? 30 years ago a law should have been passed mandating that all parents teach racial sensivity immediately? ROFL

AA was a very big part, along with all the laws outlawing racial injustice. It's take time fool. It takes time for everything.

bah, you are fucking useless. what a waste of time this is talking to you.

[Sylvus]

Unfortunately, we do not have a system in place now and are heavily dependant upon parents like yourself (*sigh*) to teach that racial intolerance is wrong. So, not surprisingly the message is still not getting across.

No kidding, it's funny how a bigoted parent like Midnyte looks to a flawed system of institutionalized racism like Affirmative Action to be a panacea, when the real solution is right there in his house.

It's like raaaaaaaaaiiiin on your wedding day...

[Aabidano]

The south will always need it.

The attitudes towards minorities I've seen in Northern states seemed much worse across the board than anything I've seen in the South. My only reference is time spent in MN, NY, WI, PA and ME though and may not be representative.

Integration has been an issue in the South for a long time, people seem to have (mostly) got the point. If not actually accepting of minorities, they aren't willing to draw fire by discrimination either. Northern areas in many cases never percieved themselves to have as bad a problem. Causing them to ignore it until it blew up in their faces.

I'll agree AA is broken, I don't know a fix though.

[Sylvos]

And how do you suppose you would get parents to teach their children this? 30 years ago a law should have been passed mandating that all parents teach racial sensivity immediately? ROFL

AA was a very big part, along with all the laws outlawing racial injustice. It's take time fool. It takes time for everything.

bah, you are fucking useless. what a waste of time this is talking to you.

Yeah cause 30 years ago was the 1970's which was just barely after the Civil Rights Movement. This is now, 30 years later using AA is wrong. My parents taught me racial intolerance was wrong, too bad your's didn't. AA needs to be retired, socio-economic changes, racial population shifts, population drift and repopulation for economic growth has proven that in todays job market anyone can get a good job provided they get a good education. Now pay attention to that word "Education" , this word is what I like to call a gateway word. Why? Cause it helps open doors for your future. AA takes education and goes "hahahahahaha you have 2 degrees and 5 years job experience but im gonna hire mr. mexican here who has a GED and no experience because I have to according to law". I realize that's an extreme example - well nowadays not too extreme.

[Asheran Mojomaster]

The south will always need it.

The attitudes towards minorities I've seen in Northern states seemed much worse across the board than anything I've seen in the South. My only reference is time spent in MN, NY, WI, PA and ME though and may not be representative.

Integration has been an issue in the South for a long time, people seem to have (mostly) got the point. If not actually accepting of minorities, they aren't willing to draw fire by discrimination either. Northern areas in many cases never percieved themselves to have as bad a problem. Causing them to ignore it until it blew up in their faces.

I'll agree AA is broken, I don't know a fix though.

Yeah, the South isnt as racist as people seem to think. We still have shitloads of rednecks, but even they seem to pretty much accept most people...I've only worked at 3 jobs so far, but I've had 2 black bosses, one was going to college, another had one degree and was about to start working on his law degree.

I think things are starting to change, no one at school really ever disciminated against people for what color they were. Usually if someone doesnt like you, its something you have done, or the way you act, not the color of your skin. Maybe we will be the difference.

Honestly, I really don't care what color someones skin is, or who their parents are, or where they are from, I just look at the person. And this is after growing up on the Alabama \ Tennessee border all my life.

I'm not saying there is no racism in the South though, there is one school around here that is all white, I think they have 1 black kid and he wont be going there next year. They are fucking terrible, they have ran all the black kids out of school, threatened them, put nooses in their lockers. No one really wants to go to that school anyway though, most people that go there have been there all their life. I dont know anyone who moved to that school that stayed more than a year or 2.

[Sionistic]

Ive never seen a case of serious racism in my life down here in Florida, but thats just from what Ive seen. However it doesnt even seem like a big problem down here.