Memorial Day - USA

[Sueven]

I did exactly as you said, and, exactly as I said, I receive a list of articles that deal with civilian deaths.

This is not a complete list, simply assaults on Iraqis found in our news archive.

That is the disclaimer which precedes the list of articles.

Additionally, this is not a list of civilians that have been killed by insurgents. I'm not entirely sure how they decide which articles to enter in here, but look at this one:

http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?cati ... 2005-05-26

Which was linked to on the site, on 5/26/05.

Three civilian Iraqis travelling in a minibus were killed, reportedly shot dead by US forces, AFP reported, citing officials.
"American forces opened fire on a minibus in the Dura district, in southern Baghdad, killing three people and wounding four others," said a defence ministry source.

This was what you claimed was contained within the site:

Second, maybe you should look up how many of those casualties are coming from the insurgents using car bombs and other reliable and controlled methods to indiscriminately kill their own people.

Here are some number in May from insurgents killing their own people.

That is not the information that the website provides.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

In other words you want the information culled out for you instead of looking at individual links. Well I don't think the media will do that for you as that doesn't make as sensational of a story as the evil US soldiers commiting atrocities against Muslims.

[Sueven]

As per your argument, the information on that website was supposed to disprove the claim that American soldiers are responsible for more civilian deaths than are insurgents. Those who claim that American's are responsible for more casualties can provide a number (20-25 thousand) and a source (Iraq Body Count). You implore them to simply click on the link and discover the truth. There are a few problems.

First, the link does not contain that information.

Second, suppose one were to embark upon a project of compiling figures of civilian casualties caused by insurgents. The articles presented in the website you linked might be one place to start, but would not in themselves be sufficient, as the website admits that its collection is not complete or entirely accurate. So, in order to obtain an accurate count, one would have to venture beyond even examining every individual article linked to on that website, and find other sources.

Third, to do so would be a serious academic or journalistic (depending on approach) project, the type which usually requires money, manpower, and time.

Fourth, it's clear that you can't be bothered to add up the figures, even though doing so is a prerequisite for anyone to disagree with you, and even though you seem so sure that they'll support your point of view.

The argument you're making here would be akin to me saying "I have concrete evidence that God does not exist," and then responding to a request for that evidence by linking you to google.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

As per your argument, the information on that website was supposed to disprove the claim that American soldiers are responsible for more civilian deaths than are insurgents. Those who claim that American's are responsible for more casualties can provide a number (20-25 thousand) and a source (Iraq Body Count). You implore them to simply click on the link and discover the truth. There are a few problems.

Actually, this is where you are in error. The 20-25,000 number is the total number of Iraq Civilians killed. This is where the problem arises. The total number of deaths on every site that has had the agenda to count them is solely attributed to the American Military murdering them. That is simply a horribly misguided assumption.

My linking to that page was to show that this assumption was way off base. Those sites that count the deaths of the civilains do so with an agenda. It would be nice if there was a true non-partisan news source in this country that would tell the real stories. As it is, you are only going to hear and see what you want to hear and see.

As I said in an earlier post, I counted the 3 day span of May 26-28 and saw from the links that the insurgents killed 30 Iraqi's and wounded 100+ in just those 3 days. Pick a random 7 day period from your calendar and go look it up and see what kind of fatality rate you find.

Fourth, it's clear that you can't be bothered to add up the figures, even though doing so is a prerequisite for anyone to disagree with you, and even though you seem so sure that they'll support your point of view.

As I stated above, the "facts" being used by the liberals on this board are skewed. I would think if one wanted to prove how wrong we are, they might be interested in finding out the whole story. I know that will not happen when dealing with Teeny, Kyoukan, and Miir though. Others with a liberal lean might keep a bit more of an open mind if they see how the media sensationalized things with their numbers.

[miir]

HTF?
I just said the site you liked had terrible design and it was near impossible to find the information that you claim is in plain sight.

[Wulfran]

I do hate how these threads, be they about the US Memorial Day or the Remembrance Day celebrated by the British Commonwealth (and other nations?) always get politicized here. In this case I will say the opening slap should go to Metanis for his troll job on what could have been a thread of respect, but he had to spout off on something he knew would get a reaction.

Like Canelek, I had a grandfather who served in WW2. He never talked much about it to us kids, perhaps waiting until we were older and better able to understand, perhaps not wanting to throw the shadows of some of his memories in our lives. Whatever the case, he died in 1983, and only in the past couple years have I discovered more about his service. I won't bore with the scant details I have of his time in the Belgian Battalion of the SAS but I often do wish I could thank him in person for what he did. About the only thing I remember him saying about it was how "he hated to jump out of a perfectly good airplane" and he "did it because it had to be done".

I feel for the families of those who loved ones never came home, be it from WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, various UN missions, and even for those in Iraq. I don't blame soldiers for what their government commits them to.

I'm not going to say I support what the US/Coalition have done in Iraq, because I have never seen any real justification for it, but aside from the abuses (i.e. Abu Graib) that come from the inevitable bad apples, I don't blame the soldiers. And whatever it was before, its a mess that can't be left on its own now.

[Sueven]

Actually, this is where you are in error. The 20-25,000 number is the total number of Iraq Civilians killed. This is where the problem arises. The total number of deaths on every site that has had the agenda to count them is solely attributed to the American Military murdering them. That is simply a horribly misguided assumption.

Not true. Had you bothered to check the source that was provided to you, you would see the following:

This is a human security project to establish an independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq resulting directly from military action by the USA and its allies in 2003.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/background.htm

The date is a little behind, probably because they haven't updated the "about this project" webpage since it started. Nevertheless, your claim is obviously factually inaccurate.

I understand and am sympathetic to the general point you're making (that we should pay attention to civilian deaths caused by the insurgency, not only by America). Why not stick with that point instead of horribly misrepresenting the facts in an attempt to prove a more ambitious one?

[Fash]

Actually, this is where you are in error. The 20-25,000 number is the total number of Iraq Civilians killed. This is where the problem arises. The total number of deaths on every site that has had the agenda to count them is solely attributed to the American Military murdering them. That is simply a horribly misguided assumption.

Not true. Had you bothered to check the source that was provided to you, you would see the following:

This is a human security project to establish an independent and comprehensive public database of media-reported civilian deaths in Iraq resulting directly from military action by the USA and its allies in 2003.

I do believe you are the one with a reading comprehension problem, Sueven.

[Nick]

........

Try again Fash, give it a wee read in context.


There you go!

[Fash]

.....

as opposed to all civilian deaths, including those resulting directly from iraqis.

you fucking morons.

[Sueven]

...

No, the number listed on Iraq Body Count is not the sum total of dead Iraqi civilians, but the sum total of dead Iraqi civilians whose deaths are attributed to the United States military according to the methodology laid out on the website I linked.

That is, there is a specific methodology, and not just a random casting of lines. You can feel free to disagree with the methodology, but claiming that it's something it's not is just absurd.

[kyoukan]

Actually, this is where you are in error. The 20-25,000 number is the total number of Iraq Civilians killed. This is where the problem arises. The total number of deaths on every site that has had the agenda to count them is solely attributed to the American Military murdering them. That is simply a horribly misguided assumption.

unlike this site that openly says they get their data from the pentagon and the army times?

sometimes I wonder how the fuck the USA managed to re-elect an incompetent criminal, much less elect him the first time. then I remember the material he has to work with.

[Lohrno]

Hell, 25000 deaths is pretty goddamned high considering there are 180k? troops there. Each seventh soldier kills a civilian...

[Winnow]

Hell, 25000 deaths is pretty goddamned high considering there are 180k? troops there. Each seventh soldier kills a civilian...

Down from every soldier under Saddam killing two civilians...making progress!

[Lohrno]

Down from every soldier under Saddam killing two civilians...making progress!

Still we can and should be doing much better than that.

[Niffoni]

Hell, 25000 deaths is pretty goddamned high considering there are 180k? troops there. Each seventh soldier kills a civilian...

Down from every soldier under Saddam killing two civilians...making progress!

Hurdling the ever-lowering bar, eh?