Fox Defends Comments About Blacks

nobody · Post by **nobody** » May 16, 2005, 5:46 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=761885

MEXICO CITY May 16, 2005 — President Vicente Fox refused to apologize Monday for saying Mexicans in the United States do the work that blacks won't a comment widely viewed as acceptable in a country where blackface comedy is still considered funny and nicknames often reflect skin color.

Fox's spokesman, Ruben Aguilar, said Mexican and foreign news media have misinterpreted the remark as a racial slur. He said the president was speaking in defense of Mexican migrants as they come under attack by the new U.S. immigration measures that include a wall along the U.S.-California border.

Stung by the U.S. crackdown on illegal immigrants, many Mexicans including Mexico City's archbishop said Fox was just stating a fact.

"The president was just telling the truth," said Celedonio Gonzalez, a 35-year-old carpenter who worked illegally in Dallas for six months in 2001. "Mexicans go to the United States because they have to. Blacks want to earn better wages, and the Mexican because he is illegal takes what they pay him."

But the Rev. Jesse Jackson said Fox should apologize.

"His statement had the impact of being inciting and divisive," Jackson said Monday, noting that in many U.S. cities tensions are already high between blacks and Latinos because they compete for scarce jobs and often have children crowded into underfunded schools.

Another American civil rights activist, the Rev. Al Sharpton, said the comment was especially disturbing because Fox was educated in the United States and "he is not unaware of the racial sensitivities here."

Fox made the comment Friday during a public appearance in Puerto Vallarta, saying: "There's no doubt that Mexican men and women full of dignity, willpower and a capacity for work are doing the work that not even blacks want to do in the United States."

Responding to the criticism during his daily news conference Monday, Aguilar read a statement expressing Fox's "enormous respect for minorities, whatever their racial, ethnic or religious origin."

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 5:54 pm

Sorry, but that's racist because it implies that blacks will do lower class jobs than others in general. </noshit>

If a US politician said that here he'd get more than a slap on the wrist. Perhaps racism is more accepted there.

From my experience here in So Cal, when I see beggars they are usually white actually. Where do you see the poor Mexicans here? On the corner looking for work to do.

So the fact that he singled out blacks was pretty bad, but I think he's right about the Mexican illegals having a little more dignity than the rest of the poor folk here.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » May 16, 2005, 6:15 pm

why can't we close the borders to illegal immigrants but work it out to actually help migrant workers come over and earn a living. i don't mind mexicans coming over as long as we know which one's are here and they are here for the right reasons. illegal immigration will be the most important issue to me next election.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » May 16, 2005, 6:20 pm

nobody wrote:why can't we close the borders to illegal immigrants but work it out to actually help migrant workers come over and earn a living. i don't mind mexicans coming over as long as we know which one's are here and they are here for the right reasons. illegal immigration will be the most important issue to me next election.

Because there's a group of people who make way, way more money by exploiting illegals, and they are very good at making their Washington puppets shut the hell up, and go fight a war on pot, or something.

Hint: Not anyone you probably know.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » May 16, 2005, 6:50 pm

even industries that dont directly employ illegal labor, can benefit by having illegals in the marketplace, because it lowers the cost of labor.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » May 16, 2005, 7:06 pm

I have no problem with his true, non corrupted by political correctness, statement. If a black comedian said this shit at a Comedy Club, all you two faced fuckers would laugh your asses off.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 7:13 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:I have no problem with his true, non corrupted by political correctness, statement. If a black comedian said this shit at a Comedy Club, all you two faced fuckers would laugh your asses off.

You are suggesting that blacks are more likely than others to take lower paying jobs?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 16, 2005, 7:23 pm

I agree with Midnyte.

Lohrno: What your question boils down to is "do blacks make less than others?" The answer is "absolutely yes."

Blacks make less than do Hispanics, Whites, and Asians (in that order).

By the way that sample includes only legal hispanics, and thus does not nullify the truth of Fox's statement.

The real question is "why do blacks make less than others?" It is in the answer to that question that you might find racism. Stating the unequivocal fact that blacks make less money than others is not racist in the slightest.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 16, 2005, 7:28 pm

Black pr0n stars make less.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 16, 2005, 7:28 pm

male or female or both?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 7:31 pm

The statement: Blacks make less money than others. Is a statement of fact.

The statement: Blacks are willing to take crappier jobs. Is racist, and probably not more or less true about others in their situation. Or would you claim it is?

Fox said the latter.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » May 16, 2005, 7:37 pm

cause the blacks know that welfare pays more than the mexicans make working 12 hours a day picking melons.

am i rite?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 7:41 pm

I sincerely hope that was sarcasm...

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 16, 2005, 7:47 pm

No it's not. They are equivelant statements as long as you assume that blacks accept ("take") the jobs they work. If they don't, then you're arguing that our economic system involves slavery, which would be an interesting argument.

The statement "blacks take worse jobs than others" is a fact. Whether the statement reflects racism on the part of the speaker depends on what it is that the speaker has identified as causes of the fact he has articulated.

By means of an example, compare these two statements.

"Blacks take worse jobs than whites because structural racism prevents them from obtaining the same jobs as whites, even if they are qualified." This statement is not racist in the slightest.

"Blacks take worse jobs than whites because they're too fucking dumb to get a real job." That statement is clearly racist.

Both statements contain the true factual assertion that blacks take worse jobs than whites. The difference lies in in that the first speaker makes the claim that the observed condition is the case because society is racist against blacks. The second speaker claims that the observed condition is the case because blacks are lesser than whites.

The important thing to note is that neither of them contests the observed condition, and neither should they, because it is the case. Observations of reality are not racist. If I tell you "women take worse jobs than men in Afghanistan," I'm not a sexist, I'm just telling you the truth.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 7:53 pm

Sueven wrote: "Blacks take worse jobs than whites because structural racism prevents them from obtaining the same jobs as whites, even if they are qualified." This statement is not racist in the slightest.

I don't think this is fact. Not all poor people are black, and of those, I don't think that blacks are any more or less likely to take a crappy job than any other race/nationality.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 16, 2005, 8:18 pm

You have unemployment.

You have higher unemployment amongst blacks, and because the system is set up to make sure they're less educated than whitey, they are more suited to low paying labouring jobs.

Mexicans are doing the jobs the blacks won't.

It's not racist, it's just poorly stated.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 16, 2005, 8:18 pm

Let's do this logically:

Blacks earn less money than whites. FACT.

If a person is working a job, they must have taken that job. FACT.

Assumption: I am measuring how "good/crappy" a job is based on its pay.

If you accept this information, you must accept that the statement "blacks take worse jobs than whites" is true.

It could be phrased this way: Given that we measure the quality of a job by it's pay and that any job that is held must have been accepted, IF blacks make less money than whites, THEN blacks take worse jobs than whites.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » May 16, 2005, 8:20 pm

Voronwë wrote:even industries that dont directly employ illegal labor, can benefit by having illegals in the marketplace, because it lowers the cost of labor.

that is why i'm saying we should make it possible for migrant workers to come into the US to work. there is no reason we shouldn't be able to control the borders and still help the mexicans that have good intentions.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 8:26 pm

Sueven wrote:Let's do this logically:

Blacks earn less money than whites. FACT.

If a person is working a job, they must have taken that job. FACT.

Assumption: I am measuring how "good/crappy" a job is based on its pay.

If you accept this information, you must accept that the statement "blacks take worse jobs than whites" is true.

It could be phrased this way: Given that we measure the quality of a job by it's pay and that any job that is held must have been accepted, IF blacks make less money than whites, THEN blacks take worse jobs than whites.

I guess you could say it that way.

I just don't see a reason to single out blacks for this, as you could say the same about hispanics or poor white folks...

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 16, 2005, 8:37 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Sueven wrote:Let's do this logically:

Blacks earn less money than whites. FACT.

If a person is working a job, they must have taken that job. FACT.

Assumption: I am measuring how "good/crappy" a job is based on its pay.

If you accept this information, you must accept that the statement "blacks take worse jobs than whites" is true.

It could be phrased this way: Given that we measure the quality of a job by it's pay and that any job that is held must have been accepted, IF blacks make less money than whites, THEN blacks take worse jobs than whites.
I guess you could say it that way.

I just don't see a reason to single out blacks for this, as you could say the same about hispanics or poor white folks...

Well, realistically he should have said "..that Americans won't". But I'm guessing this was an off-the-cuff remark, and it's being blown out of proportion.

Similiar to the comedian comment; the comment was probably audience appropriate, but the media chose to increase the audience with the express purpose of pissing people off and generating interest in their business.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 16, 2005, 8:41 pm

Zaelath wrote:Well, realistically he should have said "..that Americans won't". But I'm guessing this was an off-the-cuff remark, and it's being blown out of proportion.

Similiar to the comedian comment; the comment was probably audience appropriate, but the media chose to increase the audience with the express purpose of pissing people off and generating interest in their business.

Exactly.

And with that, I have officially agreed with Midnyte and Zaelath in the same thread.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 8:46 pm

In any case he should have chosen his words a bit more carefully.

I don't think his comment was intended to spark a discussion on the inequalities of race in our country.

(Not that it couldn't stand to be discussed...)

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 16, 2005, 9:05 pm

Why should he? =)

He's bound by the social rules of his society, you're bound by yours.

Hell, you differ state to state on far bigger issues than PC language.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 9:31 pm

Zaelath wrote:Why should he? =)

He's bound by the social rules of his society, you're bound by yours.

Hell, you differ state to state on far bigger issues than PC language.

Don't think that's not lost on me.

Still I don't think he was unaware of our standards...he was president of Coca Cola company for a while as I recall...

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 16, 2005, 9:44 pm

Stupidly worded but not racist.

It's a goddamn miracle, all these people agreeing in the same thread.

A coming sign of the apocalypse?

dibit_eq · Post by **dibit_eq** » May 16, 2005, 9:45 pm

I personally think that the American media has no right to impose our social norms (especially such a bs concept like political correctness) upon other nations.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 16, 2005, 9:47 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Zaelath wrote:Why should he? =)

He's bound by the social rules of his society, you're bound by yours.

Hell, you differ state to state on far bigger issues than PC language.
Don't think that's not lost on me.

Still I don't think he was unaware of our standards...he was president of Coca Cola company for a while as I recall...

The tagline says "MEXICO CITY May 16, 2005", I don't get how your standards apply? Was the original statement made on the lawn of the Whitehouse?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 16, 2005, 10:02 pm

Zaelath wrote: The tagline says "MEXICO CITY May 16, 2005", I don't get how your standards apply? Was the original statement made on the lawn of the Whitehouse?

-100 Points for me for not reading. I heard this somewhere else I think it was CNN and was under the impression it was at a press conference in the US.

In an effort to put the blame off of me so much, I blame lack of sleep. I must need more Cacao bits or something.

> <

murr · Post by **murr** » May 16, 2005, 10:25 pm

lol black people like watermelon lol

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » May 16, 2005, 11:13 pm

if they make it so only legal mexicans can work here then they would have to pay them atleast min wage ...instead of like 2 bucks an hour to put a new roof on your house... which would cause prices to go up because they would have to pay them more money

get what im sayin?

nobody · Post by **nobody** » May 16, 2005, 11:32 pm

i'm personally all for paying more for groceries if it means having safer borders.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » May 16, 2005, 11:37 pm

murr wrote:lol black people like watermelon lol

OMG! How could you say that?!?!.....said the Lohrno.

Guesss what Lohrno they love fried chicken too.

Guess what else? Italians love pasta. OMG! I know this is crazy of me to say these things. How racist. LOL

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 17, 2005, 1:23 am

Now would it be right for Bush to come out with a statement like this?

"Ladies and gentelmen, in an effort to combat poverty, I have decided to subsidize half the production of fried chicken, watermelons and catfish?"

How do you think people would react to that?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 17, 2005, 1:33 am

His "base" would object to that on the basis of spending. =)

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 17, 2005, 2:32 am

Australian natives are worse off than native americans in the U.S!

Zaelath always forgets to mention that his country (prison colony otherwise known as Australia) is one of the most segregated out there but loves to jump on the racial pity bandwagon whenever it involves the U.S.

ATSIC (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission) News, June 2004, reported the National Indigenous Times newspaper uncovered a suppressed cabinet document from 2001.

This document showed at least $A69.4 million in Aboriginal wages, private savings, pensions and child endowment payments had gone to the Government Trust Fund.

The New South Wales (NSW) State Government still holds this money, which was taken from an estimated 11,500 Aboriginal workers, mothers and beneficiaries who continue to live in poverty.

Who cries for this female/male?

The truth about Australian racism!

Australia's Shameful History of Slave Labour

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » May 17, 2005, 8:20 am

Its been said a few times already but really, it was nothing more than a poorly worded phrase.

PS. I love fried chicken AND pasta

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 17, 2005, 9:16 am

A few of my friends just came back from a year long trip around Australia and had some pretty fucked up stories to tell about various Aboriginals.

These 3 friends could in no way be described as racist, but the things they were saying were pretty fucking scary.

Eg - Aboriginals cannot buy wine before a certain time of the day because the vast majority of them are a bunch of pissheads.

They talk about murdering their wives.

Which is a bit messed up, the general conclusion my friends came back with (after staying with Aboriginals and Australian caucasians) was that there was some seriously unevolved Aboriginals living in Australia that would not really, or could not really, be considered as a '1st world developed' race.

Now, given that I have never been there, I have no idea if that is true or just blatant racism.

Zealath, if you could give me your take?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 17, 2005, 9:34 am

Winnow wrote:Australian natives are worse off than native americans in the U.S!

Zaelath always forgets to mention that his country (prison colony otherwise known as Australia) is one of the most segregated out there but loves to jump on the racial pity bandwagon whenever it involves the U.S.

ATSIC (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission) News, June 2004, reported the National Indigenous Times newspaper uncovered a suppressed cabinet document from 2001.

This document showed at least $A69.4 million in Aboriginal wages, private savings, pensions and child endowment payments had gone to the Government Trust Fund.

The New South Wales (NSW) State Government still holds this money, which was taken from an estimated 11,500 Aboriginal workers, mothers and beneficiaries who continue to live in poverty.
Who cries for this female/male?

The truth about Australian racism!

Australia's Shameful History of Slave Labour

Hey, nice current references! You leave out the part where it ended before I was even born, lasted about 60 years, and involved an estimated 11,500 people.

These workers were apparently ripped off worse than Mexicans are today, but not by much.

If you want to compare our slavery record with your 300 years of slavery, and 5,000,000 slaves in the south and border states (in 1860 alone), you go girl. That's not relevant to you, and neither is the strange goings on in QLD relevant to me. What is relevant is the values we have today and how we treat minorities, I know I'm not racist, and I know you're a pure capitalist consumer scumbag that's not racist in that you'll fuck over white people as fast as brown people.

Oh yeah, and please give me some idea where you base your fantasy of Australia being segregated. We don't have all our aboriginals in reservations; in fact, you segregate native americans in your census statistics, so I can't even find how many Natives there are in the US, just how many live on reservations.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 17, 2005, 9:51 am

Nick wrote:A few of my friends just came back from a year long trip around Australia and had some pretty fucked up stories to tell about various Aboriginals.

These 3 friends could in no way be described as racist, but the things they were saying were pretty fucking scary.

Eg - Aboriginals cannot buy wine before a certain time of the day because the vast majority of them are a bunch of pissheads.

They talk about murdering their wives.

Which is a bit messed up, the general conclusion my friends came back with (after staying with Aboriginals and Australian caucasians) was that there was some seriously unevolved Aboriginals living in Australia that would not really, or could not really, be considered as a '1st world developed' race.

Now, given that I have never been there, I have no idea if that is true or just blatant racism.

Zealath, if you could give me your take?

There's a measure of truth to it, but I don't really think it's their fault.

You have to remember, Australia's not exactly a hospitable country. Before Australia was colonised a lot of them spent sunrise to sunset getting enough food and water to live, that doesn't leave a lot of time for art, writings, and all the other things that drive civilisation. By the time the English got here they were thousands of years ahead of the locals.

They were then kept basically uneducated and repressed for the next 150 years, they didn't get the vote until the late 60's (that's 1960s...)

In other words, (and to generalise) they have a long uphill climb to integrate into a modern society when the cycle of poverty makes it even harder, and they're just always depressed so they're always looking for an escape, so they're often alcoholics.

It's a little hard to believe in evolution on the one hand, and on the other think that a race that didn't change their way of life in over 30,000 years is going to have equal capabilities as europeans. But given the way society works the difference isn't that large, it's purely a matter of education.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 17, 2005, 9:55 am

Yeah they mentioned that a lot of them seemed very depressed.

Australia sounded like a bloody drug and party haven

Nimbin in particular, sounded very cool.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 17, 2005, 12:07 pm

I have a few friends who have spent time in Australia. The one that I trust was shocked by what he described as a level of blatant racism re: the Aboriginal population that he felt was far worse than what he'd experienced in the northeast U.S.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 17, 2005, 12:55 pm

Sueven wrote:I have a few friends who have spent time in Australia. The one that I trust was shocked by what he described as a level of blatant racism re: the Aboriginal population that he felt was far worse than what he'd experienced in the northeast U.S.

Zaelath is living in denial. I spent a few months in Australia as well and the best job I saw occupied by an aboriginal was performing traditional dances at a tourist trap for a few coins.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 17, 2005, 1:01 pm

"Oh yeah, and please give me some idea where you base your fantasy of Australia being segregated. We don't have all our aboriginals in reservations; in fact, you segregate native americans in your census statistics, so I can't even find how many Natives there are in the US, just how many live on reservations."

Only because they are a Soverign Nation

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » May 17, 2005, 1:04 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
murr wrote:lol black people like watermelon lol
OMG! How could you say that?!?!.....said the Lohrno.

Guesss what Lohrno they love fried chicken too.

You forgot collard greens.

Kelgar · Post by **Kelgar** » May 17, 2005, 1:04 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
murr wrote:lol black people like watermelon lol
OMG! How could you say that?!?!.....said the Lohrno.

Guesss what Lohrno they love fried chicken too.

You forgot collard greens.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 17, 2005, 1:13 pm

Cart, please elaborate so your point actually makes....a point.

Not a flame, I am interested to see what you mean.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » May 17, 2005, 1:41 pm

Nick wrote:Cart, please elaborate so your point actually makes....a point.

Not a flame, I am interested to see what you mean.

Just a FYI to the Z-man there!!!

I was only stated the reason the numbers and the way Native Americans are on the Census has a lot to do with their Soverign nation status.

While a lot of Native Americans live off the reservation they are counted differently then The Native Americans living on a reservation of Soverign nation.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 17, 2005, 8:17 pm

Winnow wrote:
Sueven wrote:I have a few friends who have spent time in Australia. The one that I trust was shocked by what he described as a level of blatant racism re: the Aboriginal population that he felt was far worse than what he'd experienced in the northeast U.S.
Zaelath is living in denial. I spent a few months in Australia as well and the best job I saw occupied by an aboriginal was performing traditional dances at a tourist trap for a few coins.

I spent 18 months living in Minnesota and never saw a black with a job.

You spend all your holidays hanging out in tourist traps, or cruising corporate offices to check for natives? Yeah, I know which one it is, jackass.

And if nearly every black person you ever met was a drunk and/or violent and/or unemployed and/or asking you for money, you might be surprised how you felt toward them.

I know quite a few that aren't racist to anyone but Aboriginals.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 17, 2005, 8:48 pm

Zaelath wrote: I spent 18 months living in Minnesota and never saw a black with a job.

WTF, you never went to a Vikings game?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » May 17, 2005, 9:07 pm

I know quite a few that aren't racist to anyone but Aboriginals.

Do you consider that acceptable?