Now I wish I did own a gun...

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 2, 2005, 6:33 am

http://smh.com.au/news/World/Girl-13-de ... 52235.html

A pregnant 13-year-old has been blocked from having an abortion after state authorities in Florida won an emergency injunction, arguing that she was too immature to make such a decision.

The girl, identified only as LG, had been due to have her 13-week pregnancy terminated last Tuesday, and a social worker had been lined up to give her a lift to the clinic. However, she was thwarted in court.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 2, 2005, 6:39 am

.......I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

That is some fucked up repugnant shit.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » May 2, 2005, 7:05 am

Can someone please tell me what the fuck is wrong with Florida?

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » May 2, 2005, 9:02 am

Ahh, dont we love the "abortion are murder" guys thats the cause of this?.
Hope cases like this can make people see that abortions are sometimes needed.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » May 2, 2005, 9:08 am

Shes too immature to make a decision like this? So apparantly shes mature enough to have a baby?

Knibble · Post by **Knibble** » May 2, 2005, 9:28 am

Ya and she was mature enough to have sex.
Gosh I really don't get it.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » May 2, 2005, 10:43 am

Its like George Carlin said: those people aren't pro-Life, they just want the fetus to be born, grow up and die in one of their wars...

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 12:05 pm

...

Wow.

This makes absolutely no sense. It would seem that if she isn't mature enough to make the decision, then why err on the side of something that would take more maturity?

"She's not mature enough to decide, so we're going to force her to take on more responsibility."

That is quite messed up.

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » May 2, 2005, 1:22 pm

Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » May 2, 2005, 1:29 pm

Wulfran wrote:Its like George Carlin said: those people aren't pro-Life, they just want the fetus to be born, grow up and die in one of their wars...

And that they're Anti-Woman.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 1:37 pm

Sylvos wrote:Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!

Yeah good idea. Make people have babies as punishment...

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » May 2, 2005, 1:38 pm

wow that is some fucked up shit ... this is getting as bad as having the courts involved in that terri shit

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » May 2, 2005, 1:44 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Sylvos wrote:Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!
Yeah good idea. Make people have babies as punishment...

Would only be punishment if the father or child were you^^!!!!

Krurk · Post by **Krurk** » May 2, 2005, 1:46 pm

The author of this book was on the Daily Show last night, and had a rather interesting take on the use of abortion. According to a study he conducted, he determined that states that had high rates of abortion tended to have lower crime rates, while states with low rates of abortion tended to have higher crime rates. His argument for this was that parents who were not prepared to properly raise children were opting for abortions in high rate areas, while parents who were not prepared to raise children in low rate areas that did not abort were doing a poor job.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/ ... 64-3250265

Interesting theory.

And yes, Florida is fucked up. Why else do you think we are allowed to openly carry assault rifles and to shoot people who don't have bandwagon patriot stickers on their cars?

miir · Post by **miir** » May 2, 2005, 1:47 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Sylvos wrote:Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!
Yeah good idea. Make people have babies as punishment...

Hahah yeah and make taxpayers pay for raising the child.

Sounds like a WIN/WIN to me!!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » May 2, 2005, 1:52 pm

THOSE LIBERAL ACTIVIST JUDGES!!!

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » May 2, 2005, 4:56 pm

I think this needs to be looked at in context. This teenager was a ward of the state and managed to run away and got pregnant while she was living on the streets. It's not like she was living at home with her parents.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 6:20 pm

Hoarmurath wrote:I think this needs to be looked at in context. This teenager was a ward of the state and managed to run away and got pregnant while she was living on the streets. It's not like she was living at home with her parents.

I don't think there needs to be a context. It should be her decision.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » May 2, 2005, 6:26 pm

Sylvos wrote:Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!

In the end, that's the message.

Maturity my ass. All they want is to punish women for having sex. Welcome to Floridafghanistan.

I can't wait until the day when Florida goes too far, and the women of that state rise up and beat the shit out of their "leaders". I'm betting it will be when Jeb starts trying to make female circumcision mandatory. Any takers?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » May 2, 2005, 7:00 pm

Lohrno wrote:
Hoarmurath wrote:I think this needs to be looked at in context. This teenager was a ward of the state and managed to run away and got pregnant while she was living on the streets. It's not like she was living at home with her parents.
I don't think there needs to be a context. It should be her decision.

Again your opinions come from a complete lack of recognition of the facts at hand.

She is under 18. She is a ward of the state. Why the fuck should it be her choice for anything? Wow. How the fuck do you get dumber and dumber every fucking day?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 7:08 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: Again your opinions come from a complete lack of recognition of the facts at hand.

She is under 18. She is a ward of the state. Why the fuck should it be her choice for anything?

Just because you are a minor in custody of the state does not mean you should have all rights taken from you. Last I checked we were all beings of free will, and America was trying to give the most possible freedom for each individual. I can't understand why people like you are for limiting freedoms. Especially in cases like these where such life changing decisions are involved.

Also, as has been said before it would probably be better if she had an abortion as she is THIRTEEN. If you want to talk about maturity, it is very doubtful that she even has the maturity to raise a child. At least she realizes this and her child would not be a burden on the state or her. How it happened that she became pregnant is irrelevant. Facts are - she is pregnant and the state is trying to prevent her from having an abortion. It also doesn't sound like she has the financial means to support a child, being one herself. She has to go to school from 8 till 3.

Wow. How the fuck do you get dumber and dumber every fucking day?

Look, sorry but I'm not the one who has resorted to lashing out at those I disagree with. She seems more mature than you. At least she made a decision based on an honest appraisal of herself.

"Well maybe she should have taken some responsibility for her actions, etc." I can hear you already gnashing. Fact is you are never going to be able to control other people's sexual activity. At least they should have the ability to make a responsible choice.

The state should never be involved in making such a choice.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » May 2, 2005, 7:28 pm

Don't even bother Lohrno, it's like that dirty old man that stands in the park watching the kids, you just ignore him because you know if you attempted to get into a rational discussion about his child loving issues it would just open a much bigger mess of worms and hell.

Wulfran, George Carlin rocks!
rofl sylvos

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » May 2, 2005, 7:44 pm

She is under 18. She is a ward of the state. Why the fuck should it be her choice for anything? Wow. How the fuck do you get dumber and dumber every fucking day?

The fact that the state wants a 13 year old to be a mother is pretty fucking sick.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 2, 2005, 7:47 pm

Kelshara wrote:
She is under 18. She is a ward of the state. Why the fuck should it be her choice for anything? Wow. How the fuck do you get dumber and dumber every fucking day?
The fact that the state wants a 13 year old to be a mother is pretty fucking sick.

I doubt the state wants her to be a mother, I imagine the first thing they will do is take the child away from her.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » May 2, 2005, 8:00 pm

Niffoni wrote:
Sylvos wrote:Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!
In the end, that's the message.

Maturity my ass. All they want is to punish women for having sex. Welcome to Floridafghanistan.

I can't wait until the day when Florida goes too far, and the women of that state rise up and beat the shit out of their "leaders". I'm betting it will be when Jeb starts trying to make female circumcision mandatory. Any takers?

Hey, I need some drama for another board I post at- can I have some of yours?

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » May 2, 2005, 9:33 pm

http://www.archives.gov/national_archiv ... cript.html

Declaration of Independance:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Life and Liberty are in conflict: We should be able to opt out tax money to the issue if we choose so. Forcing one to pay for the taking of American life is taking away there Liberty.

The Government should have a opting in out system going down to the details. Of your tax money. It is your money so if you pay taxes you are funding the death penalty, You are funding Sending American life into different conflicts, YOU are funding the killing of Life. Therefore since you can not opt in or out your Liberty is aswell taken away.

Personally its more a libery or life issue. A Conflict in the Declaration of Independance Issue to me, and not what Pro-Life and Pro-Choice groups has hyped it out to be in the different sides are morons. And I respect both views when you look at there cores. I am against abortions after 3months or 12 weeks. Unless its due to incest, rape or major deformity.

The view I DO NOT respect is FORCING one pay for it or goto JAIL or be FINED...when it is totally a conflict of our Constitution and to each person differently morally. Someone may think they are going to HELL for paying for abortion...Therefore I can see how they can even think and try and overthrow the government for taking away there liberty.

Another thing...What about Adoption?: I think this child's child should be adopted....Shell face more long term mental trauma from the abortion than adopting out.

My sister would love to adopt that child....Why not adopt the kid. Only thing is even though shes been ina stable marrage for 15 years and can afford raising a stable child. She has Juvenile Diabetes, so she has gotten denied. Shes even wanted children so bad she got pregnant and almost died at one point. Lost the twins. Hell she has less chance dieing way too early then anyone who drives.

I can argue with myself all day on the issue.

The point is both side should be respected.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 9:34 pm

Sirton wrote: The point is both side should be respected.

Thus: Let her choose.

You want to opt out of giving money so she can go to school too?

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » May 2, 2005, 9:38 pm

Could make for a pretty hot mother/daughter combo in 18 years. If it happened again from the daughter you'd be getting close to GMILF territory.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 9:40 pm

Winnow wrote:GMILF

I'm not sure I ever want to hear that ackronym again...*shudder*

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » May 2, 2005, 9:44 pm

Sirton wrote:

The point is both side should be respected.

lohrno wrote:
Thus: Let her choose.

You want to opt out of giving money so she can go to school too?

Obvious you read what ya wanted and not the post. I already stated what I thought about that.

In short you can pay for it and those that choose to not be part of it...should not be forced into paying for it.

I don't know if Im pro-choice or pro-life on this particular case with the little info I know.

In general I think the child should be adopted out.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 9:48 pm

No, I read it, I just don't think that you respect the pro choice option if you are not supporting letting her choose. I understand the 12 week thing...

And we can't pick and choose what we fund, we would have no more government, or eventually 3 or 4 different ones. For example, I am funding the Iraq Invasion. I think it's morally wrong too. Should I be able to opt out?

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » May 2, 2005, 10:10 pm

Sylvos wrote:Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!

Apparently sarcasm is a lost art for some of you.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » May 2, 2005, 10:24 pm

Again you didnt read it.....Or maybe I should say you cant understand it.

I posted something about 5 times longer than this..answering that in long terms. But I wasnt logged in in so I lost it.

What I said in that post....was that I think people should have the option to opt in or out of paying for issues the Constitution has...atleast on divisive conflicting issues within the constitution. You cant just opt in and out on ISSUES you think are morally wrong, but are conflicting in the Constitution.

pay for the death penalty...dont pay for the death penalty...that person money will be opted out..maybe put more into holding cells.

Therefore you are not Forced(loosing your liberty to the Gov't) into something that is conflicted in the constitution.

I dont think you should have to pay for the Iraqi War if you thought that it was putting American Citizens in a war to take away there life..Thus your cash would go more into military family living ect........but I think you would have to have a arguement it is a unconstitutional war, and the war got over 2/3rd vote it needed to be constituional...Abortion has never gotten a 2/3 vote in congress.

The President given that power anyway...or atleast .to do a ton by the Constitution.

So Abortion isnt really the same type of issue.

Sirton Wrote:

The view I DO NOT respect is FORCING one pay for it or goto JAIL or be FINED...when it is totally a conflict of our Constitution and to each person differently morally. Someone may think they are going to HELL for paying for abortion...Therefore I can see how they can even think and try and overthrow the government for taking away there Liberty.

I can understand both sides of this issue:

I can argue your view is one of freedom of choice or is one of complete disrespect...close mindness....and one trying to take away others Freedom of Life(The baby) And ones freedom (people that morally can not pay money for this to be done through the constitutuions own words even). Its a Life or Liberty conflict Issue of the Declaration of Independence.

The courts have said you can get'em, but now its when does life start with me.

When does life start..I personally believe thats 12 weeks...

I also have a problem with the child being a WARD of the state and only a minor of 13yrs old making THAT decision....Adoption would be my 1st option with her....If its before 12weeks then abortion would be ok with me.

Like I said I can argue with myself on this issue all day since it is conflicting in the constitution to me...So Im not going to bother to argue about it anymore with you.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » May 2, 2005, 10:45 pm

Sylvos wrote:
Sylvos wrote:Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!

Apparently sarcasm is a lost art for some of you.

Actually I enjoyed that.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 10:54 pm

Sirton wrote: Therefore you are not Forced(loosing your liberty to the Gov't) into something that is conflicted in the constitution.

I dont think you should have to pay for the Iraqi War if you thought that it was putting American Citizens in a war to take away there life..Thus your cash would go more into military family living ect........but I think you would have to have a arguement it is a unconstitutional war, and the war got over 2/3rd vote it needed to be constituional...Abortion has never gotten a 2/3 vote in congress.

The President given that power anyway...or atleast .to do a ton by the Constitution.

So Abortion isnt really the same type of issue.

True but you are arguing for the ability to pick and choose what issues you support and don't. In reality this will never work.

I'm not trying to be closed minded, and I can understand the conflict you could have in supporting what you view as an immoral practice but I think you should know that just about every single person supports the government and by proxy something they morally do not agree with.

You can't just pick and choose what issues you do and do not support because that would undermine the whole system of government and it would likely degenerate into either anarchy, another form of governmnet, or a few separate entities. Talk about special interest groups...

Just to give you an example, the Iraq war could not be sustained or even supported with 50% of the population likely against it, and not paying for it. In fact it's arguable that it isn't being sustained even now.

Our government has to be united in what it does and does not support. I prefer to err on the side of liberty than that of not.

BTW If you support the choice before 3 months, you are not against abortion, just after a certain point. Seems reasonable to me...

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 2, 2005, 10:57 pm

PS: Babies are not currently considered citizens of the government until they are born. Thus legally in the womb they almost occupy the same legal niche as animals, etc. I'm pretty sure when they said life, they were not against killing chickens for food...

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » May 3, 2005, 12:30 am

Mak wrote:
Niffoni wrote:
Sylvos wrote:Guess that will teach the little slut to keep her legs crossed!
In the end, that's the message.

Maturity my ass. All they want is to punish women for having sex. Welcome to Floridafghanistan.

I can't wait until the day when Florida goes too far, and the women of that state rise up and beat the shit out of their "leaders". I'm betting it will be when Jeb starts trying to make female circumcision mandatory. Any takers?
Hey, I need some drama for another board I post at- can I have some of yours?

I have plenty to spare on Mondays, help yourself

nobody · Post by **nobody** » May 3, 2005, 2:02 am

Lohrno wrote:
Sirton wrote: The point is both side should be respected.
Thus: Let her choose.

ya, i think it's a great idea to shield someone from the consequences of their actions. that way when they are older they are used to making stupid decisions thinking that someone else will fix it all for them. in fact i think this should apply to all of us. i mean, why shouldn't i be able to go get drunk, get in a car, kill someone in an accident, and have someone fix it for me. i shouldn't have to live with that, should i?

that was an extreme, sarcastic, example so before you guys start jumping down my throat, i'm not saying make her have it and raise the kid in a shitty enviornment. but there are plenty of people who would love to have that kid if she doesn't want it. and if she does then we should help her and give her a chance to be responsible for a child.

then we can indoctrinate it into christianity to go fight in our middle east crusades.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » May 3, 2005, 4:27 am

nobody wrote:
Lohrno wrote:
Sirton wrote: The point is both side should be respected.
Thus: Let her choose.
ya, i think it's a great idea to shield someone from the consequences of their actions. that way when they are older they are used to making stupid decisions thinking that someone else will fix it all for them. in fact i think this should apply to all of us. i mean, why shouldn't i be able to go get drunk, get in a car, kill someone in an accident, and have someone fix it for me. i shouldn't have to live with that, should i?

Every now and then you're the worst kind of ignorant hick that makes Mid look erudite.

This girl is *13* years old. Even though your laws recognise the fact that she doesn't have the ability to understand the consequences of sex, you don't even know if this is a rape baby (in the forcible sense, not merely the taking advantage of a homeless child sense) but you feel free to rave on about how she should be held accountable for her actions?

Your complete and utter lack of humanity, and black and white view make me ill.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » May 3, 2005, 7:43 am

nobody wrote:
Lohrno wrote:
Sirton wrote: The point is both side should be respected.
Thus: Let her choose.
ya, i think it's a great idea to shield someone from the consequences of their actions. that way when they are older they are used to making stupid decisions thinking that someone else will fix it all for them. in fact i think this should apply to all of us. i mean, why shouldn't i be able to go get drunk, get in a car, kill someone in an accident, and have someone fix it for me. i shouldn't have to live with that, should i?

that was an extreme, sarcastic, example so before you guys start jumping down my throat, i'm not saying make her have it and raise the kid in a shitty enviornment. but there are plenty of people who would love to have that kid if she doesn't want it. and if she does then we should help her and give her a chance to be responsible for a child.

then we can indoctrinate it into christianity to go fight in our middle east crusades.

so its up to the government to "teach her a lesson, because sex is evil"...she has "earned" enough by the situation, it is much easier to take the pill and use a condom then to have to drive to an abortion clinic and have the procedure, its already a last resort

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 3, 2005, 1:54 pm

nobody wrote: that was an extreme, sarcastic, example so before you guys start jumping down my throat, i'm not saying make her have it and raise the kid in a shitty enviornment. but there are plenty of people who would love to have that kid if she doesn't want it. and if she does then we should help her and give her a chance to be responsible for a child.

Well before you go on about that you should also know about the health risks of young mothers. She is at high risk of miscarriage and could die along with the baby because of that. Having the abortion isn't all fun and games either. She already does have to "suffer the consequences" no matter what path she takes. I don't think the government should be deciding major medical decisions for people like that.

Say she had appendicitis. What if said Gov't decided that it wouldn't be in her best interests to have the operation, and she died as a result...?

nobody · Post by **nobody** » May 3, 2005, 5:50 pm

man, i knew i was going to get shit for this one, heh. i was mostly playing devils advocate here. in all reality i think it would be a much more affective lesson to let her make the decision herself since she is the one who is going to live with it. the rest of her life she will know that whatever outcome, good or bad, it was her choice. i do feel that all options should be weighed before making the decision to have an abortion and should not be used as a method of birth control. there are many instances where abortion is perfectly justified.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 3, 2005, 6:26 pm

nobody wrote:man, i knew i was going to get shit for this one, heh. i was mostly playing devils advocate here.

Don't worry about it I get shit for just about everything I say.

in all reality i think it would be a much more affective lesson to let her make the decision herself since she is the one who is going to live with it. the rest of her life she will know that whatever outcome, good or bad, it was her choice. i do feel that all options should be weighed before making the decision to have an abortion and should not be used as a method of birth control. there are many instances where abortion is perfectly justified.

Very good. ^ ^

Also, I believe that very very few women no matter what age would consider using abortion as a method of birth control and not a backup plan. I think I wouldn't be going too far out on a limb to suggest that most women do in fact consider this very carefully before making that choice. Motherly instincts, and such are very strong.

Post by **pyrella** » May 3, 2005, 7:43 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7718218/

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - A judge has ruled that a 13-year-old girl at the center of an abortion fight with the state may terminate her pregnancy, and Gov. Jeb Bush said Tuesday that the state will not appeal further.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » May 3, 2005, 7:47 pm

There is some hope for sanity in this country.

Acies · Post by **Acies** » May 4, 2005, 2:32 am

Ultimately, it should be her choice whether she wants to go through labor or not. Frankly, a thirteen year old giving birth... I foresee problems. In fact, I think most men who say "She should have the baby" should shut the fuck up until they have to shoot something ten to fifteen times bigger than the orfice it will be coming in out of, out.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » May 4, 2005, 7:11 am

Wulfran wrote:Its like George Carlin said: those people aren't pro-Life, they just want the fetus to be born, grow up and die in one of their wars...

Correct you are sir, but you aren't pro choice you just want the fetus to die now.

Morgrym · Post by **Morgrym** » May 4, 2005, 8:20 am

That's pretty fucked up. They are forcing this girl into a life decision that no one at 13 should have to make. I suppose you can argue that the state or some lucky relative will inherit the kid, but, that is still throwing tons of emotional baggage on the shoulders of someone in the 9th grade. Who is going to start the "13 year old girl in Florida found dead from septic shock after coat hanger abortion attempt."?

Mak · Post by **Mak** » May 4, 2005, 9:02 am

It's a tragic event, for sure. Certainly a tough decision. Good luck to the poor girl.

What I'd ~really~ like to know is who got her pregnant in the first place.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » May 4, 2005, 10:18 am

Lohrno wrote:There is some hope for sanity in this country.

There aren't any good outcomes to this IMO.

A 13 year old does not have the maturity level and should not have to make this decision, but I don't think it's one that anyone else should make for her either.

Those of you without experience with teenagers from a parenting or teaching perspective can blabber to your hearts content, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Their worldview frequently doesn't reflect reality. Which is why their rights are curtailed to an extent until they reach legal "maturity". It usually takes another five (ish) years after that for reality to set in.