Jane Fonda

[Skogen]

You're right. I would love to ask you to re-read. But, for some reason it is difficult for a lot of poeple to comprehend what it is they are reading.

Think long term. Think big picture. (Yes. phrases I use way too much. But, pertain everytime.)

During a 1972 trip to North Vietnam, Jane Fonda propagandized on behalf of the North Vietnamese government, declared that American POWs were being treated humanely and condemned U.S. soldiers as "war criminals" and later denounced them as liars for claiming they had been tortured: True.

Yes don't see that as being destructive and counterproductive to the war effort? To the efforts and goals of the soldiers? To the pysche of the soldiers still in battle? To the outlook and pysche of the American public at home?

In law, treason is the crime of disloyalty to one's nation. A person who reneges on an oath of loyalty or a pledge of allegiance, and in some way willfully cooperates with an enemy, is considered to be a traitor. Oran's Dictionary of the Law (1983) defines treason as: "...[a]...citizen's actions to help a foreign government overthrow, make war against, or seriously injure the [parent nation]."

If you don't consider her actions harmful to America, then there is really no hope for us to come to any form of compromise or agreement, so let's just move on.

How about the thousands upon thousands of demonstrators who protested right here in the US of A? By your definition, they are guilty of treason too!

[Nick]

I didn't mention treason you fool.

Nice way of continuing to avoid any logical discussion based on fact or relevance when pressed. Same old Midnyte!

[Apostate]

Prosecuting Jane Fonda would have been painfully close to prosecuting someone for sedition, which is a very troubled part of our national history. After all, Ford pardoned "Tokyo Rose" for similar actions during World War II, if not the same circumstances. Calling it treasonous is one thing- calling it "blatantly" treasonous is fairly stupid, since if it -was- blatant to the fore fathers, there wouldn't have been a need for the Alien and Sedition Acts in 1798 barely 20 years later, well into the terms -of- those fathers. Which was, of course, repealed.

As for republicans and democrats passing the blame for responsibility of Vietnam, it's fairly stupid to do so in light of the policy of Containment towards the spread of communism being a bipartisan policy between presidencies. If you really -want- to look at partisanship and try to place blame on democrats for vietnam, then look closely at Republican Eisenhower's doctrine towards countering soviet influences in the Middle East during his presidency. Obviously, many of those policies helped shape the current climate of the Mid East today- but were more immediately felt as they lead to the militarizing of Turkey with missle bases, which was countered by the soviets deciding to do much the same in Cuba, which triggered the Cuban Missle Crisis.

While domestically the parties were different, foreign policy in regards to containment stayed remarkably coherant. And continuing those policies is what easily lead into mistakeningly interfering in a Vietnamese civil war in the notion that it would strengthen a communist China... which had been a thousand year enemy of Vietnam, and continued to be so.

[Fairweather Pure]

But Fonda ain't got a motor in the back of her Honda!

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I didn't mention treason you fool.

Nice way of continuing to avoid any logical discussion based on fact or relevance when pressed. Same old Midnyte!

Exactly. You did not mention treason. It just so happens to be the point of this thread for the past 3 pages now. Yet you have brought up how ebil the US of A is numerous times. Not once acknowledging what is an obvious case of treason or even ignorantly refuting the claim she is a traitor.

So in response I will quote a very wise man who once said....Nice way of continuing to avoid any logical discussion based on fact or relevance when pressed.

[Nick]

Wormy mc worm you evade the point quite masterfully. I disagree that what she did was treasonous on the grounds that she had a much more reasonable point to make instead of burning innocent children to death or raping women.

Happy?

Treason suggests something immoral, whereas my point is the US was treasonous to the ancient concepts of justice and reason, a concept no less relevant because you refuse to acknowledge it's existence.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Dear hippy IRA retard, treason has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with aiding another country.

[Lohrno]

He also avoids the protesters question.

Because he knows by his definition they would be conisdered treasonus, and that would be also unconstitutional, and that would make his definition flawed. Unless I've missed something?

[Winnow]

Jane's daughter Bridget isn't too bad. She plays a good druggie in, Kiss of the Dragon.

[Nick]

Dear jar headed cracker redneck spawn, by the time the lorry driver was done filling your mother's fetid womb with his caffeine ridden semen, your chance of evolving into any form of intelligent life passed into the realms of history.

[kyoukan]

This thread is going places. You say what Fonda did is treason. I ask you to define treason and then put what Fonda did up against that definition and then you come back to me and say that what Fonda did is treason. Do my parents have to have been cousins for me to process that logic?

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Midnight quoted exactly what you are asking for. I can't help that you have him on ignore.

[Lohrno]

Well to be fair, he did. But he gave a definition of treason that included a huge percentage of the population who protested that time.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Not true. Protests are not treason.

Lets put it like this in an example. I think marijuana should be legalized so I make a sign and organize a protest. We picket around city hall. Perfectly legal and is a normal run of the mill protest. Across town, Jane decides to show the city that she thinks marijuana is glorious by inviting a camera crew to come and watch her light up a fat bowl and tell the world that the government is stupid and that pot makes you healthier.

Just to make it simple.....protests are legal. Consorting with the enemy not legal.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Not true. Protests are not treason.

Lets put it like this in an example. I think marijuana should be legalized so I make a sign and organize a protest. We picket around city hall. Perfectly legal and is a normal run of the mill protest. Across town, Jane decides to show the city that she thinks marijuana is glorious by inviting a camera crew to come and watch her light up a fat bowl and tell the world that the government is stupid and that pot makes you healthier.

Just to make it simple.....protests are legal. Consorting with the enemy not legal.

Good example. I doubt they will understand it. But, very good one Kill.

[Nick]

I can see the example, but yet again I think the point would be in this example that marijuana should in fact be made legal, and sometimes you need someone who isn't afraid to go against the party line and say "Fuck it, you're wrong, get over yourself and do something right for a change."

Apparantly this is a bad thing to you guys.

[Sueven]

Actually, I believe that is exactly the issue of disagreement.

I think they simply don't feel that it's ethically acceptable to oppose your own country, regardless of whether your country's actions are right or wrong.

[Nick]

But that's just stupid!

[kyoukan]

Midnight quoted exactly what you are asking for. I can't help that you have him on ignore.

No he did not. Those actions do not define treason to anyone but a fucking moron.

Oh... I get it now.

[Zaelath]

Jane's daughter Bridget isn't too bad. She plays a good druggie in, Kiss of the Dragon.

That's Peter's daughter.... =)

[Winnow]

Jane's daughter Bridget isn't too bad. She plays a good druggie in, Kiss of the Dragon.

That's Peter's daughter.... =)

Oops, Bridget is Jane's neice.

[Mak]

Didn't Jane take notes that were secretly passed to her from POW's and then turn them over to their N. Vietnamese prison guards? I'd say that qualifies as treason by most reasonable standards.

[Lohrno]

Snopes.com doesn't seem to think so.

[Nick]

This site says that's a falsehood. Whether that is true or not is anyones guess.

http://www.snopes.com/military/fonda.asp

[kyoukan]

Didn't Jane take notes that were secretly passed to her from POW's and then turn them over to their N. Vietnamese prison guards? I'd say that qualifies as treason by most reasonable standards.

she also bathes in the blood of white christian babies.

[Winnow]

Snopes isn't an authority on anything.

I've seen some of the half answers snopes tries to pass off as explaning away some things yet you people suck it up as the gospel truth.

[Apostate]

Not once acknowledging what is an obvious case of treason or even ignorantly refuting the claim she is a traitor.

That's nonsense. If it were obvious, there wouldn't be argument over it, because quite a lot make the argument that treason has to show demonstrable damage to the the country. Aid and comfort to the enemy is an extremely broad definition, that has been interpreted sometimes extremely strictly- such as war material or information on military operations or deployments (ie espionage), which of course makes narrow interpretations unsuited for application to protests, or even consorting with the enemy without clear damage being done. Definitions like that are why other laws are passed for more specific cases that could be construed as treason... or could not be. Take this for example:

16 May, 1918
The U.S. Sedition Act

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
United States, Statutes at Large, Washington, D.C., 1918, Vol. XL, pp 553 ff.
A portion of the amendment to Section 3 of the Espionage Act of June 15, 1917.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SECTION 3. Whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully make or convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States, or to promote the success of its enemies, or shall willfully make or convey false reports, or false statements, . . . or incite insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or shall willfully obstruct . . . the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, or . . . shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States, or the Constitution of the United States, or the military or naval forces of the United States . . . or shall willfully display the flag of any foreign enemy, or shall willfully . . . urge, incite, or advocate any curtailment of production . . . or advocate, teach, defend, or suggest the doing of any of the acts or things in this section enumerated and whoever shall by word or act support or favor the cause of any country with which the United States is at war or by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both....

Very clearly Jane Fonda did sedition under that old repealed act. But acts like that would have been totally unnecessary if broad application to treason charges had been applied originally, which they had not and will not be, precisely because they are not "obvious".

[Xzion]

unless it DIRECTLY effects the american military or government in a negative manner, it is NOT TREASON, it is one engaging the there 1st amendment rights that our forefathers died to protect, everyone who thinks otherwise is a facist and/or someone who doesnt understand the roots and principle of this countrys formation

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

unless it DIRECTLY effects the american military or government in a negative manner, it is NOT TREASON, it is one engaging the there 1st amendment rights that our forefathers died to protect, everyone who thinks otherwise is a facist and/or someone who doesnt understand the roots and principle of this countrys formation

(Finally, in an interview in 2000, almost thirty years after the fact, Fonda admitted: "I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft carrier, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless.")

[Lynks]

So saying bad things about soldiers could be considered treason too? You're fucked up.

[Lohrno]

Snopes isn't an authority on anything.

I've seen some of the half answers snopes tries to pass off as explaning away some things yet you people suck it up as the gospel truth.

That's why I said "according to." They don't seem to go very easy on her either, so I give ever so slightly more credit to them deeming that she didn't. If you can find a source for her passing notes from prisoners that isn't like from freep or something, more power to you. Just that I think the claims that she did are at least so far unsubstantiated.

[Nick]

Winnow, who takes Snopes as the gospel truth? Find me one post where someone claims that, on this whole fucking board.

[Winnow]

Winnow, on VeeshanVault claims other members take our website as the gospel truth. We can't find the word gospel and snopes associated with each other anywhere else on the VeeshanVault message board therefore this is a false claim! We at snopes take everything literally and are clueless to the use of colorful metaphors.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Winnow, on VeeshanVault claims other members take our website as the gospel truth. We can't find the word gospel and snopes associated with each other anywhere else on the VeeshanVault message board therefore this is a false claim!

LMAO

[Xzion]

unless it DIRECTLY effects the american military or government in a negative manner, it is NOT TREASON, it is one engaging the there 1st amendment rights that our forefathers died to protect, everyone who thinks otherwise is a facist and/or someone who doesnt understand the roots and principle of this countrys formation

(Finally, in an interview in 2000, almost thirty years after the fact, Fonda admitted: "I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft carrier, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless.")

jane fonda didnt KILL any soliders herself or give vietcongs and secret government information that caused an overturn in a military

as long as you personally are not active in the enemys military actions, and a member of the enemy faction yourself (in this case jane fonda a vietgong) it is not considered treason...my grandfather was imprisoned for the rest of his life and later murdered for writing articles against franco under the same principle of "treason"... if you think what jane fonda did was treason you should be ashamed to call yourself an american and you need to take a long look at why your ancestors fled there homeland to come here and live in FREEDOM

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

unless it DIRECTLY effects the american military or government in a negative manner, it is NOT TREASON, it is one engaging the there 1st amendment rights that our forefathers died to protect, everyone who thinks otherwise is a facist and/or someone who doesnt understand the roots and principle of this countrys formation

(Finally, in an interview in 2000, almost thirty years after the fact, Fonda admitted: "I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft carrier, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless.")

jane fonda didnt KILL any soliders herself or give vietcongs and secret government information that caused an overturn in a military

as long as you personally are not active in the enemys military actions, and a member of the enemy faction yourself (in this case jane fonda a vietgong) it is not considered treason...my grandfather was imprisoned for the rest of his life and later murdered for writing articles against franco under the same principle of "treason"... if you think what jane fonda did was treason you should be ashamed to call yourself an american and you need to take a long look at why your ancestors fled there homeland to come here and live in FREEDOM

And that is your opinion and interpretation of the numerous definitions of treason. Mine and many others differs from yours. /shrug

[Lohrno]

And that is your opinion and interpretation of the numerous definitions of treason. Mine and many others differs from yours. /shrug

Doesn't it tell you something that the definition varies so much? Perhaps it is a somewhat subjective thing...

[Zaelath]

And that is your opinion and interpretation of the numerous definitions of treason. Mine and many others differs from yours. /shrug

Doesn't it tell you something that the definition varies so much? Perhaps it is a somewhat subjective thing...

And of course, it was a Zionist conspiracy that let her avoid being convicted of treason. *cough*

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

And that is your opinion and interpretation of the numerous definitions of treason. Mine and many others differs from yours. /shrug

Doesn't it tell you something that the definition varies so much? Perhaps it is a somewhat subjective thing...

And of course, it was a Zionist conspiracy that let her avoid being convicted of treason. *cough*

No conspiracy. In an attempt to calm down anti-war sentiment she was not brought up on charges of treason. If they wanted to make an example out of her and if there weren't so much hippee, anti-war propaganda going on in the everyday media. It would have worked against them and cause more anti-war, anti-government reaction from the same type of tre hugging libs that frequent this board.

[Nick]

Oh look Midnyte, stop talking shit for once in your life. Your arguments as usual are woefully lacking in both rationality and content.

And for the record Winnow, is 'colorful metaphor' your new phrase for something 'factually innacurate claims' or 'retarded ignorance'? I can't tell which one ;x

[Winnow]

Oh look Midnyte, stop talking shit for once in your life. Your arguments as usual are woefully lacking in both rationality and content.

And for the record Winnow, is 'colorful metaphor' your new phrase for something 'factually innacurate claims' or 'retarded ignorance'? I can't tell which one ;x

Nay, I would refer to those as "Teenyisms"

[Nick]

Ahh I missed the board these last few days

Now Winnow I know you usually just play devil's advocate but if I can drag you back to the issue at hand, I think you will find I stated quite clearly that whether Snopes.com was true was anyones guess.

So maybe you're targetting the wrong issue here, but then again, that seems to be a trend with those left holding their cock when they realise they know jack shit about anything and want to use the old "LOL I MADE A FUNNEY WHILST IGNORING MY STUPIDITY I WIN ROFLCOPTER!1"

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Oh look Midnyte, stop talking shit for once in your life. Your arguments as usual are woefully lacking in both rationality and content.

And for the record Winnow, is 'colorful metaphor' your new phrase for something 'factually innacurate claims' or 'retarded ignorance'? I can't tell which one ;x

Actually if you poek around on teh intarweb, you will find this opinion is widely held by many who write about this topic.

[Nick]

I did, and none of them were called Midnyte Ragebringer

[Xzion]

unless it DIRECTLY effects the american military or government in a negative manner, it is NOT TREASON, it is one engaging the there 1st amendment rights that our forefathers died to protect, everyone who thinks otherwise is a facist and/or someone who doesnt understand the roots and principle of this countrys formation

(Finally, in an interview in 2000, almost thirty years after the fact, Fonda admitted: "I will go to my grave regretting the photograph of me in an anti-aircraft carrier, which looks like I was trying to shoot at American planes. It hurt so many soldiers. It galvanized such hostility. It was the most horrible thing I could possibly have done. It was just thoughtless.")

jane fonda didnt KILL any soliders herself or give vietcongs and secret government information that caused an overturn in a military

as long as you personally are not active in the enemys military actions, and a member of the enemy faction yourself (in this case jane fonda a vietgong) it is not considered treason...my grandfather was imprisoned for the rest of his life and later murdered for writing articles against franco under the same principle of "treason"... if you think what jane fonda did was treason you should be ashamed to call yourself an american and you need to take a long look at why your ancestors fled there homeland to come here and live in FREEDOM

And that is your opinion and interpretation of the numerous definitions of treason. Mine and many others differs from yours. /shrug

yes that is my opinion, and obviously yours is different...so in that case...

do you not fully believe in the 1st amendment that grants the FREEDOM OF SPEECH?

do you think that revolutionarys that spoke out against wrong pratices of our government such as MLK and Abe Lincoln are guilty of treason?

do you believe that anyone that disagrees with the american government and who thinks change needs to come in certain areas is guilty of treasson?


from what i see, you hold a fascist defenition of "treason"...is this true?

[Xzion]

And that is your opinion and interpretation of the numerous definitions of treason. Mine and many others differs from yours. /shrug

Doesn't it tell you something that the definition varies so much? Perhaps it is a somewhat subjective thing...

And of course, it was a Zionist conspiracy that let her avoid being convicted of treason. *cough*

No conspiracy. In an attempt to calm down anti-war sentiment she was not brought up on charges of treason. If they wanted to make an example out of her and if there weren't so much hippee, anti-war propaganda going on in the everyday media. It would have worked against them and cause more anti-war, anti-government reaction from the same type of tre hugging libs that frequent this board.

hippie tree hugging propaganda? theres that conservative hared spewing out fromw ithin you again, when someone differs in an opinion you attack them...

out of curiosity why does everyone hate hippies? a month or so ago i spent a weekend at a hippie music festival and have never met a more open minded, accepting and peaceful group of people who believe in principles of freedom, love, peace and community (for the most part)

[Zaelath]

They don't wash enough and the women are hairy!

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

And that is your opinion and interpretation of the numerous definitions of treason. Mine and many others differs from yours. /shrug

Doesn't it tell you something that the definition varies so much? Perhaps it is a somewhat subjective thing...

And of course, it was a Zionist conspiracy that let her avoid being convicted of treason. *cough*

No conspiracy. In an attempt to calm down anti-war sentiment she was not brought up on charges of treason. If they wanted to make an example out of her and if there weren't so much hippee, anti-war propaganda going on in the everyday media. It would have worked against them and cause more anti-war, anti-government reaction from the same type of tre hugging libs that frequent this board.

out of curiosity why does everyone hate hippies? a month or so ago i spent a weekend at a hippie music festival and have never met a more open minded, accepting and peaceful group of people who believe in principles of freedom, love, peace and community (for the most part)

That's great for weekends. The real world is harsh. "group of people who believe in principles of freedom, love, peace and community " can't run a country. When you look around all over the globe, find me a mid to major country with a peacenik leader. You won't. Hell, you might not even find one in any small countries. Find me the leader of a large successful corp. who is a peacenik. I'm thinking you may find one or two who on the outside represent them selves as one, but look how they got where they are, and I would venture to say they are not.

[Xzion]

Doesn't it tell you something that the definition varies so much? Perhaps it is a somewhat subjective thing...

And of course, it was a Zionist conspiracy that let her avoid being convicted of treason. *cough*

No conspiracy. In an attempt to calm down anti-war sentiment she was not brought up on charges of treason. If they wanted to make an example out of her and if there weren't so much hippee, anti-war propaganda going on in the everyday media. It would have worked against them and cause more anti-war, anti-government reaction from the same type of tre hugging libs that frequent this board.

out of curiosity why does everyone hate hippies? a month or so ago i spent a weekend at a hippie music festival and have never met a more open minded, accepting and peaceful group of people who believe in principles of freedom, love, peace and community (for the most part)

That's great for weekends. The real world is harsh. "group of people who believe in principles of freedom, love, peace and community " can't run a country. When you look around all over the globe, find me a mid to major country with a peacenik leader. You won't. Hell, you might not even find one in any small countries. Find me the leader of a large successful corp. who is a peacenik. I'm thinking you may find one or two who on the outside represent them selves as one, but look how they got where they are, and I would venture to say they are not.

the dali lama

[Aabidano]

the dali lama

Where does he live now, and for the last 40 or so years?

Had Fonda not had quite so famous parents, she probably would have been prosecuted. Unsucessfully. There were many others in the north at the same time, none went to the lengths she did though. As it is, she destroyed any hopes she may have had for an ongoing movie carrer. Giving aid and comfort to the enemy is treasonous, they might have gotten her for that but not much more.

I didn't like the "real" hippies when I was a kid in the 60s. Still don't, bunch of worthless, largely hypocritical, unwashed slacking idiots. When they're about 26 and finish college (that mommy paid for) they blossom into yuppy assholes.