It feels good doesn't it? I hope?

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » March 1, 2005, 9:33 pm

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld ... -headlines

"What happened in Lebanon conforms with our hopes for every Arab country," said Michel Kilo, a Syrian intellectual. "It was a rehearsal for a peaceful popular movement that unfolded right before our eyes."

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050301/D88IBJF00.html

More than 2,000 people demonstrated Tuesday at the site of a car bombing south of Baghdad that killed 125 people, chanting "No to terrorism!"

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 57,00.html

Suddenly, there is a whiff of 1989 in the air. The Middle East, one of the last regions in the world to cling to repressive government by corrupt and self-perpetuating elites, has been touched by democracy.

Is it time to give W some much deserved credit? Or time to hold on to that last hope that it will all turn to doom and gloom just so you can be right.

Adex_Xeda · Post by **Adex_Xeda** » March 1, 2005, 10:04 pm

Freedom transcends politics

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » March 1, 2005, 10:10 pm

Its a hopeful sign, although still way too early to judge yet. I hope it works out. But even if it does in fact happen, may I introduce you, personally, to the concept of being a graceful winner? Stop being such an insufferable bitch.

Varia

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » March 1, 2005, 10:30 pm

Rekaar. wrote:http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld ... -headlines
"What happened in Lebanon conforms with our hopes for every Arab country," said Michel Kilo, a Syrian intellectual. "It was a rehearsal for a peaceful popular movement that unfolded right before our eyes."
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20050301/D88IBJF00.html

More than 2,000 people demonstrated Tuesday at the site of a car bombing south of Baghdad that killed 125 people, chanting "No to terrorism!"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0, ... 57,00.html

Suddenly, there is a whiff of 1989 in the air. The Middle East, one of the last regions in the world to cling to repressive government by corrupt and self-perpetuating elites, has been touched by democracy.
Is it time to give W some much deserved credit? Or time to hold on to that last hope that it will all turn to doom and gloom just so you can be right.

The same minority protests in your own country and you say, "Pfft, liberal pussies."

I don't see democracy as some panacea for all ills though.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 1, 2005, 10:33 pm

Good for them, but I would say it's pretty useless to protest "Terrorism" It's not like the terrorists are gonna go "Oh, well they don't want us to use terror to achieve our political goals, well okay then." Terrorists likely want a corrupt and/or fundamental government.

I still don't see this as a support for our actions...

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » March 1, 2005, 10:42 pm

Reform and democracy in the Middle East...who would have ever thought that was possible? Oh wait...

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 1, 2005, 10:44 pm

Brotha wrote:Reform and democracy in the Middle East...who would have ever thought that was possible? Oh wait...

Democracy is not always good. The fact that it's comming from within in this case is probably a good sign. I'm not sure that that's necessarily the right choice for Iraq.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 1, 2005, 10:58 pm

The same minority protests in your own country and you say, "Pfft, liberal pussies."

Funny, re-read that a few times.. how many millions spoke out against the war? Oh wait, they were just pussies..

We all hope it works out. But it is decades too soon to say anything.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » March 1, 2005, 11:31 pm

Lohrno wrote:Good for them, but I would say it's pretty useless to protest "Terrorism" It's not like the terrorists are gonna go "Oh, well they don't want us to use terror to achieve our political goals, well okay then." Terrorists likely want a corrupt and/or fundamental government.

I still don't see this as a support for our actions...

Its not useless to protest. Sure, its not gonna stop the core terrorists in their tracks, but it *can* reduce support for them across the board. Its a clear demonstration that others feel the same way, that youre not alone, and that can give people the strength to deny pro-terrorist activities, attitudes etc where they wouldnt have before, and thus weaken the terrorist movement. Any one person saying get bent doesnt do much, but if a thousand do it it suddenly becomes quite difficult to do naughty business in that town, and so on. Only time will tell how the grass roots really feel about the issue and whether these demonstrations will be the catalyst for anything, but it IS possible, and therefor not useless.

And no, its not inherently intended as support for your actions. It *could* be, but its much more likely homegrown and spontaneous, inspired primarily by the Orange Revolution, and encouraged by the Iraq elections and the fact that the recent death of Arafat has put people in a frame of mind where changes are possible.

*Hugs*
Varia

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » March 2, 2005, 11:19 am

Lebanon could very easily slip right back into civil war, which is exactly where they were before Syrian intervention. Now I'm not trying to make Syria out to be some kind of angel here, since they had clearly picked a side and were not just trying to help out.

The U.N. had already called for the departure of Syrian troops from Lebanon anyway...

The CIA World Factbook wrote:The passage of UNSCR 1559 in early October 2004 - a resolution calling for Syria to withdraw from Lebanon and end its interference in Lebanese affairs - further emboldened Lebanese groups opposed to Syria's presence in Lebanon.

All I'm saying here is that while most people think of this as "a good thing", it could just be the beginning of years of civil war between Christian and Muslim factions (and between Muslim and Muslim factions as well, considering that the Sunni, Shi'a, and Druze Muslims fight each other as much as they fight the Christians).

Thomas Friedman's From Beirut to Jerusalem goes into great detail regarding the underlying issues in Lebanon.

Alfan · Post by **Alfan** » March 2, 2005, 11:48 am

Doesn't it make more sense to point to the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine as the inspiration for Lebanon's own velvet revolution?

Fash · Post by **Fash** » March 2, 2005, 12:16 pm

nope... doesn't it make more sense to point to something more recent and closer to home?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 2, 2005, 12:32 pm

politicians, and those in the appropriate cult of personality, will certainly want to take credit for many of the recent developments in Lebanon, Egypt, and Iraq.

The US involvment in the region has probably contributed to some of it. Giving "W" the credit wholesale though is a bit ridiculous. Its much like his information ministers (Heritage Foundation , etc) saying that Libya's change is a result of the Iraq war even though the talks were underway with Europe before we even deployed troops.

But as somebody who isnt a fan of W, i think it is fair to say that our actions probably are an ingredient in a complex jambalaya of change underway in the region. So that is good.

I think you also have to give credit to satellite television. The governments cannot control the media anymore in those countries, and it is very easy to grab satellite TV. There is a competitive marketplace between Al Dubai, Al Arabiya, Al Jazeera, etc, that is good for the consumer. Information is flowing freely to people, and has been for several years. That is a very important building block of democracy as well.

The situation in the Ukraine was probably very important to the Lebanese people actually Fash in inspiring them. That was a much more analagous situation. Russia was trying to install a puppet government (filling Syria's roll in the Lebanon example), and the people stopped them through public protest, not through military intervention (US method).

Regardless, preliminarily it is a positive step. But to pin too much hope on the stability of Lebanon is probably not prudent

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » March 2, 2005, 1:45 pm

Voronwe wrote:Its much like his information ministers (Heritage Foundation , etc) saying that Libya's change is a result of the Iraq war even though the talks were underway with Europe before we even deployed troops.

I'm going to have to disagree with this. Yes, talks were underway for a long time, I've even read where a Clinton Administration official said that Gaddafi had told them he was willing to disarm. But if that was true, why didn't they follow through with it then? Clearly just recently we were able to resolve outstanding issues that they weren't able to in the past, for whatever reason.

Sure diplomatic isolation and sanctions were a factor in his decision, but it's a pretty big coincidence that, after years of failed diplomacy, we'd suddenly have a break through.

The latest round of talks started after we invaded, or atleast just before when it was clear we were going to.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3337353.stm

Libya's decision, which followed nine months of secret talks with the West, has received international praise.

That = on Dec. 21st 2003. March 20th 2003 is when we started launching cruise missles at Saddam. Also, the article says "the West," but I THINK it was just between Libya, the US, and Britain, I may be wrong though.

Not to mention there's this quote from Gaddafi. Just to qualify this, this could easily be spin (note the source), but maybe not.

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi said Qaddafi had told him in a phone conversation that "I will do whatever the Americans want, because I saw what happened in Iraq, and I was afraid.

Back on topic, US policies have without a doubt greatly influenced what we see going on the Middle East right now. Just imagine five years ago someone saying "free elections in Afghanistan and Iraq, democratically elected leader in Palestine, peaceful protests in Lebanon." You would have assumed that person was crazy. Certainly it's too early to say for sure the long term effect this will have, but I think the trend will continue and history will look kindly on Bush because of it.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » March 2, 2005, 2:09 pm

Lohrno wrote:Democracy is not always good. ... I'm not sure that that's necessarily the right choice for Iraq.

If started and supported from within it's a damn sight better over the long haul than the alternatives.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 2, 2005, 2:16 pm

another good thing that i just heard reported by Nick Robertson is that "by and large" most Iraqis view the insurgency as actions against Iraqi forces and not American forces.

So as for al Zarqawi's goal of helping bin Laden's "global Jihad", they are not winning the popular support in Iraq. So perhaps a major opportunity squandered by them.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » March 2, 2005, 2:48 pm

Peace in the Middle East a good sign... 3 and a half years afterwards the Beast takes over and declairs himself god, during the next three and a half years the world comes to the brink of distruction, millions perish then Christ returns!

If we achieve peace in the middle east in the next year those 7 years then those years would end just about the time the Myan calendar says the world will end as well... spooky, uh?

I'm not here to preach prophecy to anyone as you all know my Christian beliefs are often very different than mainstream Christanity - I don't believe in forcing anyone. However if you don't believe, I think it's worth looking into. Everyone has to make religious decisions for themselves...

Marb

(Nice Hijack uh?)

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 2, 2005, 3:01 pm

Armageddon is overdue.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 2, 2005, 3:02 pm

Probably God is still preparing the description. =D </derail>

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » March 2, 2005, 3:03 pm

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 2, 2005, 3:03 pm

the Lord can't beem all of you dorks to heaven soon enough

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » March 8, 2005, 1:06 pm

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/mid ... ory=617840

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » March 8, 2005, 1:55 pm

ironic that you would post that when today there is a pro-Hezbollah/Syria ralley that is as big if not bigger than the "Cedar Revolution" demonstrations last week.

At any rate, according to a colleague of mine who is Lebanese (who thought the removal of the pro-Syrian government was a "great thing"), she says that probably a lot of the people in the pro-Syrian ralley are displaced Palestinians who live in Lebanon now. Additionally, many Lebanese feel that even though Syria secured the country by strong-arming them - they did at least provide security, both from the civil war as well as Israel.

But again to reiterate, she is of the opinion as a Lebanese person with family still over there, that having Syria out of Lebanon is a "great thing".

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » March 9, 2005, 5:52 pm

I don't really care what her opinion is atm, what's your take voro? You've been one of the more deliberate Bush bashers around here and I know you've been politically corrupted to this point (damn cnn).

Are you coming around to the light yet?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 9, 2005, 8:33 pm

Only light shining in the White House is after hours when they sit up waiting for the drunken daughters to come home.

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » March 9, 2005, 8:34 pm

Kelshara wrote:Only light shining in the White House is after hours when they sit up waiting for the drunken daughters to come home.

Lame. I like Bush bashing as much as the next guy, but that had no point, sorry.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » March 9, 2005, 8:43 pm

shrug didn't really try to make a point. Wasn't even a Bush bashing, was a Bush' daughter bashing!

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » March 14, 2005, 6:59 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4346613.stm

Nearly one million people have gathered for an opposition rally in Beirut, officials say - a month after the death of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.

The BBC's Kim Ghattas in Beirut says the crowds turned the city centre into a sea of red, white and green - the colours of Lebanon's national flag.

They were protesting against the presence of Syrian forces in Lebanon.

The demonstration surpassed recent pro-Syrian rallies and is thought to be the biggest in Lebanese history.

VeeshanVault

It feels good doesn't it? I hope?

It feels good doesn't it? I hope?

Re: It feels good doesn't it? I hope?