i got my FBSS cause some friends came down and helped me camp it, recognizing that i was never going to leave otherwise
i got 2 yaks the same day cause guildmates came down and helped me. they awarded the 3rd yak to a druid who wasnt in the guild but was helping us out and was a good sport.
in kunark the groups i was in always established clear loot rules and nobody rolled for shit that somebody else would equip. it was very rare that i would do a group that would have clerics rolling on lams and rogues rolling on donal's. granted pickup groups didnt exist in seb/HS then, but nonetheless i would organize grps with clc/ench that i didnt always know very well, and they were typically cool with doing it that way.
now i've seen the reverse as well. I was grouped with Juctice and another people from that guild, and then 3 random people once and a deepwater piece dropped, that a paladin in the group could have used, but he held on to it to distro within his guild. anyways i left the group at that point for obvious reasons.
I don't get people that multi-box and then think they deserve special credit for it. Yeah it takes more work and concentration, but if you don't like doing it, don't. Don't whine to everyone about how you should get multiple rolls on loot just because you are. I 2 and 3 box often, but I'd never consider rolling 2 or 3 times because that's how I choose to play at the time. I do agree however that I should be able to roll on any item that any character I'm currently playing in the group would use - once, of course.
Don't think I'd group with a multi-boxer who planned on rolling once for each of his/her boxes.
Rainus wrote:Kilorn .. I can go onto a lengthy discussion of definition on NBG and why I don't like NBG in PICKUP groups
Because you are a greedy fucking asshole who doesn't deserve to play with other human beings?
When I was levelling, melees who rolled on caster loot and vice versa were fucking blacklisted across the entire server. EQ is such a cesspit of dumbassery now.
NBG doesn't work because of the greedy fucking assholes unfortunately. I'm sure everyone has experienced the asshole that has claimed NBG and then you see the item being auctioned.
I don't agree with multi boxers rolling more than once. Time is the investment and should be rewarded equally.
Voronwë wrote:
i got my FBSS cause some friends came down and helped me camp it, recognizing that i was never going to leave otherwise
i got 2 yaks the same day cause guildmates came down and helped me. they awarded the 3rd yak to a druid who wasnt in the guild but was helping us out and was a good sport.
Two Yaks and a FBSS all in the same day Voro? That qualifies as one hell of lewt fest back in the day.
NBG doesnt work partly due to the ease of abuse, and partly because its just another form of greed. If you and I go halfies on a raffle ticket on a porshe and win it, and I have a drivers license and can immediately drive off in it and you dont, how would you react if I said NBG, I can use it immediately, you cant, so I get to keep it, hah. And I dont owe you any compensation either. Suck on it. Doesnt matter that you could trade it for the boat you've always wanted, or pay off all your debts, or pay your mothers medical bills, or even go out and learn to drive, you dont have a license RIGHT NOW. Do you think you're gonna be happy about being rooked out of your share of a 50K (or however much those things go for) prize with such crap? Not many people are. Same thing with any droppable loot in any pickup group. The fact that there may be an extra step for some people in getting the usable value of a loot drop doesnt make the prize less valuable to them, or make them less entitled to an equal shot at it. All this is ignoring the class-specific drops at many camps and the problems that can cause if the people who dont have immediately usable drops possible from the camp are excluded from gaining loot. Why would any non-melee want to show up at the ghoul lord if they arent allowed a shot at the loot because they cant wield/wear it immediately? And are you gonna be able to do the camp at all without them? No, everyone puts in the time, everyone gets a chance at the toys is the only way it works. Anything else is just a form of "how about you come over here and powerlevel me", and we all know how we tend to react to random_person_08 sending us tells for that. Thats why I dont support NBG in pickup groups as a general policy, and do support clearly defined loot rules for each group so everybody has the same expectations.
Of course the above applies to random pickup groups. If its a group formed of all friends the dynamics are (or certainly should be) different. With friends you help the melee get yaks today and they help you get smr's tomorrow and it all balances out, more or less. (Kunark-era aside, which was much more of a me(lee)-me(lee)-me(lee) kinda time) And of course guilds are even more-so.
But for purely random groups NBG is a logical fallacy, driven by the selfishness of the "needy", and abusable by the corrupt.
2-boxers is a bit more muddy. In principle a 2-boxer is doing twice the work and desrves twice the pay. Time is NOT the only investment, unless the rest of the group is volunteering to pay their share of the monthly costs of maintaining the 2-box. It costs (me) in the neighborhood of 50 bucks cash money per month US to run my extra box (account cost, extra internet hookup, ammortising the computer cost its running on) and I dont do it to powerlevel you or anyone else for free. With my 2-box I bring more to a group than a single box. I am working the same amount of time that the single is, but I'm providing more value per time and am entitled to the possibility of extra toys, just as a doctor provides higher value per time than a groundskeeper at a park does and is paid more accordingly. The old soviet union where they did exactly that (pay doctors and streetsweepers about the same) is a good example of how paying everyone the same regardless of the value of their contribution worked out, if youre still a time-only person. If you dont want to acknowledge that the 2-box is valuable to the group and worth some compensation occasionally thats fine, but then I hope you wont be offended if the 2-box goes off and does something else while my main is in the group. (Ok, I dont often actually do that, but its certainly my right, and I do do it occasionally) Two-boxes are worth loot if theyre contributing.
Where it gets muddy is the question of whether theyre contributing at full value or not and whether the primary is at full value or not. The fact is that the previous poster is correct- often theyre not operating at 100%, although the percentage of effectiveness varies considerably from player to player and class combo to class combo. I like my own cleric/wizard combo as a very easy to 2-box pair that contribute at nearly 100% effectiveness usually (The loss is mostly in terms of missed med time on the wizard, and in hectic crowd control situations) when I'm awake. I'm not as good at my cleric/ranger combo. So 2 characters does not usually equal 200% contribution to the group. Most good ones are in the 180% range. To acknowledge the lesser cumulative effect of 2-boxes and compromise with the "time is the only factor" faction I tend to think that a 2-box combo is worth about 33% to 50% more than a single, depending on how easygoing the 2-box is, how effective he is, and how rabid the opposition is in the group. That makes loot distro in the group a bit tricky, but is ideally how it should turn out if the details can be decided.
VariaVespasa wrote:If you and I go halfies on a raffle ticket on a porshe and win it, and I have a drivers license and can immediately drive off in it and you dont, how would you react if I said NBG, I can use it immediately, you cant, so I get to keep it, hah. And I dont owe you any compensation either. Suck on it. *Hugs*
Varia
Yeah but they would get the next Porsche you guys won in a raffle. It would all even out over the course of 100 years plus they'd be old enough to drive by the time you won again : )
Logical argumant about the value a 2box may bring to a group Varia but we really can't award based on a percieved value (even assuming the rare if ever 200% effectiveness).
By the same argument if my group has 2 warriors in it, a *please god* EB tank and a second tank we picked up to fill the spot, should I get more loot chances than the second tank. I'm pretty sure I'm doing ~2x his damage.
A case can always be made that it is more benefitial to the other members of your group to replace the 2box with another person. So the group actually sacrafices some effectiveness to include that 2box.
I've seen some people who can 2box fairly well in a boring exp grind. However, I've had to CR OMGIAMRETARDEDCAUSEALOTISTWOWORDS more than I would without the 2boxing in groups when the shit hit the fan (hi sajko!).
I'd contend the only viable reasoning behind a 2box is to fill a need the group has. To provide that which it does not already have access to. If you insist on bringing a 2box to a group and by doing so limit another real person from being included you are in fact 33% to 50% a detriment to that group, assuming neither character is running at 100%, since the group can't count on either character to fulfil either role completely.
Winnow- most groups in practice dont go long enough or get lucky enough for everyone to get something, so "thats ok, you'll get the next one" doesnt work.
Forthe- I dont understand the second paragraph in your post- could you rephrase it please hon so I can try again?
Yes, you can make the arguement that replacing a 2-box with a real player can improve the effectiveness of the group, and thats true enough usually. I'm just saying that if you have accepted the 2-box into the group in the first place or you want to keep it around to help from outside the group as a 7th man then it rates some pay. I also did not suggest trying to evaluate how much a particular 2-box contributed to try and figure out how much to give it, and instead advocated a standard 33% or 50% share as a compromise between its actual fluctuating value and the 1 player 1 share crowd.
Rekaar- Filling a need a group has, even if only for a 6th warm body, IS how most 2-boxes get into groups, as you well know from experience, so I dont think we have a problem.
I think Raistin misread me. I didnt mean that I had farmed 42 FBSS's - I meant I *lost* 42 rolls on FBSS before I got my own (btw thanks Galin!). That's all.
IT'S HARD TO PUT YOUR FINGER ON IT; SOMETHING IS WRONG
I'M LIKE THE UNCLE WHO HUGGED YOU A LITTLE TOO LONG
Hum. Lets try the really old days of "first come, first served lists"
Case 1:
Got home form work at 5am. Friend says hey come to Najena i am in Drelzna camp. I show up. 5th in line. 3 camp. add more. 1st person gets JBoots 5:45am. Continute camping cause i dont want to loose my spot and "They got to drop any spawn now." 4am the next day. Bam got my loots. Next day Jboots nerfed to quest.
Case 2:
Camped Ghoul Assisn for the pre nerf Guise of Deciver. Camped it for 3 days off and on. Night before nerf goes into effect camp it all day using first come first served and 5 people get before me but none drop for me before server down. Never drops again.
Heh.
I agree that people should 100% decide ahead of time in any group. Be it NBG or /ran or whatever. I have never had any real issues with loot in a group due to knowing ahead of time what the deal was.
my 2ct
Xorg - 85 Ranger EQ (Sovereign - Veeshan) - messing around now that it is free on FV
Laup - 70 Cleric EQ (Sovereign - Veeshan) - ditto
Xorg - 70 Hunter WoW (Sovereign - Boodhoof) - retired
I remember on the 3rd one there was a pally from my guild that needed it in my group. I didn't like her much so I kept the belt. Needless to say she threw a huge hissy fit.
Nowadays I would never keep loot that a guildmate needed, but back then, well, I was in OG...
WIZZY POWAH!
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
You know, the whole thing of two boxing ( and varia in some ways made a lot of sense, but the tangent about a two boxer being owed is funny as well as insane) I two box and never expect my druid to get anything when I do, it is my convenience to have a druid, and when the druid is used in groups I prefer it to be replaced as soon as possible. Playing a druid/mage combo may be one of the hardest to do ( like enchanter and shaman on a hate raid may be the worst), when I play pally/druid it becomes easy.
I have on occasion even 3 boxed, that puts each char at best running 60% efficiency.
But let me restate, NO ONE MULTIBOXING SHOULD BE TREATED AS MORE THAN ANY OTHER PLAYER.
She Dreams in Digital
\"Led Zeppelin taught an entire generation of young men how to make love, if they just listen\"- Michael Reed(2005)
In principle a 2-boxer is doing twice the work and desrves twice the pay. Time is NOT the only investment, unless the rest of the group is volunteering to pay their share of the monthly costs of maintaining the 2-box.
Honestly, I couldn't care less how much someone pays each month for EQ. Nobody makes you do it, nobody asked you to do it, and nobody agreed to give up a percentage of the chance at drops for doing it. You're dualboxing by your own personal choice.
I just find it hard to imagine that anyone can say that a 2-box player should not roll. If my other characters are in the group its because they are needed if I bring my shaman along and she is outside the group then I would not be rolling. On the other hand if Both my characters are in the group they deserve the same loot rights as any other. Thats not being rude. Sorry
set up rules for looting when you form group. or ask about rules for looting when you join group... /agree. all better now.
And I can see lots of sides to this, all need gear, all need money for gear, melee need weaps or money to buy, casters need spells or spells to trade, two boxers need to find out how people in group think about two boxers looting. and the results will vary with with every single set of people you group with.
cloning isnt legal yet and when it is i wil have my very own antonio banderas.
Noone said anything about kindness I would not w3ant to bring my shaman or my warrior in to a group already estsablished unless as a last resort to keep the group going untill another shows in zone. but I have 2 boxed on my own and have had many BEG to join me. But since PoP its a little tough to 2 box in PoV but it can also be hard to find a group and having a cleric/druic/shaman/warrior on other accounts can help till others arrive but if a parchment drops and my shaman is 2-boxed in the group you better bet she deserves a roll if you think otherwise then I wonder what other ideas you hold about the way things should be done. LOL
i dont ask for loot consideration with my bard when i do have him 2 boxed in a group.
this is for a couple reasons though.
1. he is lvl 53 and typically i only bring him to groups cause we need some mana regen/haste or easy crowd control
2. there is no way i play him as well as a bard is played by somebody who isnt also playing another box.
certainly some classes are not as involved in keystrokes as a bard can be 2-boxed with a less noticeable dropoff in efficiency.
when the shit gets crazy though, it is really tough for a 2-box player to perform as well as 2 individuals.
often i group with friends/guildmates who 2 box fairly regularly, i am happy when they get stuff they need cause they are important people in the guild, and it is good when they are well equipped bla bla bla, but i guess the question at the core of this is in pickup groups.
and i think that was answered at the beginning of the thread. if there is any ambiguity in the way the group is going to handle loot, it is best just to have a polite conversation at the beginning and get it worked out, then everybody can focus on having fun =).
I sucked a dick that day in PoS, guess it abit too much for me 