Teacher caught on tape pulling chair from under student

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Teacher caught on tape pulling chair from under student

Post by Kelgar »

.... refusing to stand for national anthem

http://www.phillyimc.org/article.pl?sid ... 21/1649235

A student named Jay (who wants his last name to be withheld) at Brick Township High School in New Jersey, had his chair pulled out from under him after he refused to stand for the national anthem. The class started out that morning with the teacher Stuart Mantel yelling "I don't want to hear a sound! Not a sound! Morning exercises will come on, you will stand, you will stand quietly, you will pay attention! Any Questions!?...Now stand up and keep your mouths shut!" Students stood up as the national anthem began playing.

In the middle of the anthem, Mantel walked over to Jay and demanded that he stand up. Jay silently refused, and Mantel yelled again, "Stand up!". Jay then said "I don't have to stand up". To which Mantel insisted "You have to stand." Jay said "No I don't". Mantel then reached over and pulled Jay's chair out from under him. Jay responded to Mantel's outrageous behavior by asking him "Are you serious?", to which he yelled "I am damn well serious."

Jay said that he didn't have any political reasons for his refusal to stand but that he wanted to sit because he feels it is his right to do so and that right was being threatened by Mantel. Jay said that he thought Mantel might tell him to stand, but he never expected to be physically forced to do so.

Jay's friend who was in the class at the time, Corey, says that their teacher had been strict in the past in demanding that students stand for the national anthem and pledge of allegiance. That's why they brought in a camera - to expose the teacher in case he did anything again. "The teacher and school principals wanted him (Mantel) to press charges against us...they tried to blame it on us like it was premeditated, like we did it just to get him on tape, which is false. We knew he was gonna go nuts because he frequently used to" said Corey.

Jay's other classmate Steve got suspended for 10 days for filming the incident. The school told Corey that it "violated the teacher's constitutional rights" for them to film the teacher without his permission. "I think that its crazy that people are getting in trouble for this or things they say. There have been so many kids video taping and no one ever got in trouble for it. So why now?" Jay asked. It sounds as if the school is punishing this student now because of the nature of what's on the tape, not the fact they were taping the teacher without his permission.

When I asked Corey if Mantel was being punished for pulling out Jay's chair, he said "Nope...I asked (the principal) 'What are you doing to discipline Mantel?' and they said 'we talked'. Teachers do anything they want". Seeing acts like Mantel's go unpunished will likely inspire teachers to continue intimidating their students into standing for the national anthem and pledge of allegiance.
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Post by Aabidano »

Kid sounds like a little buttfucker who is 10 years overdue for some serious ass beatings.
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Post by Akaran_D »

While the teacher may not have violated the student's consitutional rights because he was not citing religious beliefs, the teacher should at least be suspended for his actions.

I don't see any problem taping someone without their knowledge if its being used to provide evidence of wrongdoing or malicious intent, exp from an authority figure (as it is hard to proove that otherwise).
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

The kids don't have the right to refuse anything they are told to do by someone in authority. He should have been suspended for failing to comply. The teacher should be suspended for his actions as well.
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Post by Lynks »

So if a teacher tells him to take off his pants, he should?

Anyways, the kid was a dick, but it was his right not to stand for the anthem.
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Post by Akaran_D »

You know, I could make a good argument for him not having to comply based on freedom of speach. He wasn't disrupting, and it is not a federal mandate that you stand for the pledge. It is Respectful, but if you choose not to do so, you shouldn't Have to.
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Post by Lynks »

And thats what it all boils down to, there is no law that says you have to stand, its just a sign of respect.

But in the end, it was entrapment, and both teacher and student were dicks.
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Post by Winnow »

This is the sort of thing you take care of by throwing a flag over the kid and beating him with bars of soap placed in socks.

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Post by Dexail »

Aabidano wrote:Kid sounds like a little buttfucker who is 10 years overdue for some serious ass beatings.
what he said
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

I concur.
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Post by Sirensa »

Lynks wrote:And thats what it all boils down to, there is no law that says you have to stand, its just a sign of respect.

But in the end, it was entrapment, and both teacher and student were dicks.
It wasn't entrapment. Entrapment requires a law enforcement officer/agent to be the one entrapping. It also would require that but-for the student filming, the teacher would not have acted like an ass.

Both student and teacher were dicks, true dat. But school rules can be more involved than mere constitutional rights. Whether the school rules are proper, I wouldn't know, I don't know that school's policy. I'd say either way, requiring a kid to stand for that is improper, but they should have brought it up to the School Board.
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Post by Lynks »

Sirensa wrote:Entrapment requires a law enforcement officer/agent to be the one entrapping.
Not really
Dictionary.com wrote:To lure into danger, difficulty, or a compromising situation.
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Post by Drinsic Darkwood »

Dexail wrote:
Aabidano wrote:Kid sounds like a little buttfucker who is 10 years overdue for some serious ass beatings.
what he said
/nod
Jay said that he didn't have any political reasons for his refusal to stand but that he wanted to sit because he feels it is his right to do so...
If it's not political reasons, why the fuck wouldn't you stand? Maybe a broken foot/ankle/leg, but it's pretty clear that's not the case here. Why make a scene over something that you claim you have no problem with? "Because I don't have to." What a fucking dickhead.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Sirensa wrote: I'd say either way, requiring a kid to stand for that is improper, but they should have brought it up to the School Board.
Really?

Trying to teach our kids Patriotism, respect for their flag, country, and all those who came before them to make it possible for this twit to jerk off to anime when he gets home from school while playing a game of Madden 2005....is wrong?

You fucking people kill me. You seriously have some fucked up, short sighted, small minded ways of looking at life.
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Post by noel »

Winnow wrote:This is the sort of thing you take care of by throwing a flag over the kid and beating him with bars of soap placed in socks.

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Post by masteen »

It was spelled out on like page 3 of my student handbook in high school that all students had to stand for the pledge every morning. You may not like school rules, but when you are on campus, your ass is theirs.
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Post by Sirensa »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: You fucking people kill me. You seriously have some fucked up, short sighted, small minded ways of looking at life.
I'm about as far from fucked-up, small-minded and short-sighted as you can get. But you can't see past the wall of your own philosophical bullshit to see what another person is saying.

If a kid has a problem with a school policy, for example, standing during the flag salute, etc., then they should take that issue to their school board to discuss, rather than making an ass of themselves in class.

And as to the people who disagree with my definition of entrapment...

BTW, if you are speaking of entrapment in a legal term, try a legal dictionary, not a websters
Black's Law Dictionary wrote:entrapment, n. 1. A law-enforcement officer's or government agent's inducement of a person to commit a crime, by means of fraud or undue persuasion, in an attempt to later bring a criminal prosecution against that person. To establish entrapment (in most states), the defendant must show that he or she would not have committed the crime but for the fraud or undue persuasion.
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Post by noel »

Sirensa wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: You fucking people kill me. You seriously have some fucked up, short sighted, small minded ways of looking at life.
I'm about as far from fucked-up, small-minded and short-sighted as you can get. But you can't see past the wall of your own philosophical bullshit to see what another person is saying.

If a kid has a problem with a school policy, for example, standing during the flag salute, etc., then they should take that issue to their school board to discuss, rather than making an ass of themselves in class.

And as to the people who disagree with my definition of entrapment...

BTW, if you are speaking of entrapment in a legal term, try a legal dictionary, not a websters
Black's Law Dictionary wrote:entrapment, n. 1. A law-enforcement officer's or government agent's inducement of a person to commit a crime, by means of fraud or undue persuasion, in an attempt to later bring a criminal prosecution against that person. To establish entrapment (in most states), the defendant must show that he or she would not have committed the crime but for the fraud or undue persuasion.
Your definition of entrapment is/was spot on.
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Post by Drinsic Darkwood »

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Trying to teach our kids Patriotism, respect for their flag, country, and all those who came before them to make it possible for this twit to jerk off to anime when he gets home from school while playing a game of Madden 2005....is wrong?
Help, I agree with Midnyte =(((((

As with Masteen, I've still got a student handbook from one of the middle schools I attended, and it has the exact same ruling. You lose a lot of your rights on a school campus - right to privacy, etc. The right to "sit down" is a crock of shit. I'm in full support of soap-filled sock beatings!
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Post by Mak »

I actually think the kid has the right to not stand if he feels he doesn't want to. To me it's a simple act of civil disobedience, and as has been mentioned, standing for it is not a requirement of law.

A student should also never be physically disciplined by a teacher. If the teacher felt it was a discruptive influence, or a challange to his authority, he needs to take it to a higher disciplinary level than resorting to physical discipline.

Having said that, the kid was a little wanker that needs a serious ass-whoopin by his more patriotic classmates.
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Post by Aabidano »

New Jersey
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Post by Truant »

We've had discussions about this before. I got into serious shit with a teach for not reciting the pledge everyday, despite standing, and being still and quiet during the time, and being perfectly respectful of those who wanted to recite it during the mandatory "Stand and recite the pledge time."

It's nothing new. The teacher was out of line. The student(s) obviously had intentions of provocation, since they had a camera and planned to film it. They're equally assclowns in my book.
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Post by Animalor »

He does't have to stand for the national anthem or the pledge of allegience.

The fact that he doesn't have to is what your WHOLE FUCKING COUNTRY STANDS FOR!

Remember that little Freedom word that your president likes to shoot around. This is a prime example of it. The kid should be free to not stand up for the anthem if he didn't feel like it. The teacher may not like it but it's no reason to physically make him do it.

Teacher should be dismissed imo. What he did was inexcusable. that next? Should the right to paddle our kids be re-instituted in schools?

Seems to me the world could do with a lot less
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Post by Brotha »

Here's the thread I saw regarding this on ebaumsworlda few days ago. The video is in the first post on the thread:

http://forum.ebaumsworld.com/showthread.php?t=55967

That teacher sounds fucking pissed. It's pretty clear the students were just trying to get a rise out of him, they had planned this out.

As is mentioned in the ebaumsworld thread, God is never mentioned in the National Anthem, you're not even "swearing allegiance to anything." I don't think some constitutional right of the student was violated by not allowing him to sit during the National Anthem.
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Post by Kindo »

Teachers are saints. This man has to deal with little fucks like this day in and day out, young adults that are not given any limits by their parents, disrespect their elders at every oportunity and expect their slightest whim to be served to them via a silver spoon. And he is demonized for finally losing it? Teachers are not given nearly enough credit for what they have to deal with. High school teachers in particular. It sounds like he needs better stress management, but the kids here are the bad guys, not the teacher.
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Post by Marbus »

The child, note the use of the word child, was in school. While he is there he must follow the rules, that IS part of freedom. If he dosen't like the rule then he can talk with his parents, who are the legal adults, about going to another school where you don't have to stand.... that is his freedom that is why it works.

A public school is paid for through the taxpayers and the Federal Governmnet. If you don't want to be a part of that, then you have the option/freedom to go somewhere else. But if you are there, STFU and follow the rules.

Of course if the rules are violating his rights to privacy like "talking someone's pants off" or something like that then it's different but this goob was being ask to just show a little respect. I'm a liberal all about freedom but with freedom comes responsibility and obviously this punk was ready for that.

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Post by Brotha »

And if you watch the video, the teacher didn't violently or in a way threatening way pull the chair out from under the student, and the student was in no danger of falling down.
Jay said that he didn't have any political reasons for his refusal to stand but that he wanted to sit because he feels it is his right to do so and that right was being threatened by Mantel. Jay said that he thought Mantel might tell him to stand, but he never expected to be physically forced to do so.
More like he wanted to exercise his right to be a douche bag. Typical teenagers trying to be rebellious, nothing new here. It's pretty funny that some people are trying to turn this into some kind of first amendment issue "this is what our country stands for!!"
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Post by cid »

This is just funny.

Back when I went to elementary, if I did not obey the rules. My ass got paddled!
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

cid wrote:This is just funny.

Back when I went to elementary, if I did not obey the rules. My ass got paddled!
Exactly. My parents even signed a waiver allowing the principal to do so, if I got out of line. I learned my leason the first and only time that happened to me.
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Post by noel »

cid wrote:This is just funny.

Back when I went to elementary, if I did not obey the rules. My ass got paddled!
I never got paddled, but I followed the fucking rules or my father would take care of me when I got home.
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Post by Kilmoll the Sexy »

School is not an option. You do not have the same rights in ths country until you are 18 years of age. He is a minor until 18 and then he can do whatever he wants. The school could expel him for not following the rules of conduct they have laid out.

The rules are in place so they can minimize disruptive asshats like this so people who WANT to get an education won't be peddling hotdogs on the streets trying to make enough to feed their dope habit like this jackass will be. Class idiots are only funny until you see them 5 years after high school.
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Post by Marbus »

I never got paddled but that dosen't mean I couldn't. As my Dad was the psych examiner for the School System his only request to the principal was that he get to be there when it was done... my assumption was always to make sure I got a good enough one that I wouldn't do it again.

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Post by Winnow »

I'm proud to say I got paddled by the principal in 1st grade for TPing the bathroom after not returing to class post recess. My partner in crime cried during the corporal punishment. I did not! [-(

...beats an ass raping by a priest if I was in a religious school.
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Post by Fash »

1. the kid did it on purpose.. like he didn't know the other kids had a camera. :roll:

2. the teacher crossed the line pulling the chair, when he should have dealt with it through the appropriate channels (send the kid to the principal)

3. the school board in typical fashion, suspends the students for filming, and the teacher gets a pass...

america, in a nutshell....
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Post by Mukyluk »

most schools in america that can physicaly punish a child must get parental consent before doing so. the teacher should have give the kid a "disapline slip" and refered him to the princaple if he felt the kid was out of line, or being disruptive. the fact the teacher took physical measures should be grouds for dismissal, no questions asked. and the kid has every right to press charges against the teacher.. as far as the kid video tapeing the incodent. punishent would have to be determind by the districts/schools writen rules on the use of electronic equipment on campus.. i know i wasnt allowed headphones or cell phons on campus when i was in high school.. case closed.
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Post by Aslanna »

We all know rules are there to be followed. But you're going under the assumption that standing is actually a rule at that school.

Unless I missed something somewhere that said it was. If so feel free to point it out.
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Post by Raistin »

They dont mention how the teacher was out the day before, and the kids Surand "spelling?" wrapped "nerds" to their desks and ran the class to the point the sub had to leave and get security.


I dont blame the teacher. I would prolly have snapped from the kids constant bullshit over and over and prolly have shoved the chair up the kids ass.
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Post by Lynks »

Sirensa wrote:BTW, if you are speaking of entrapment in a legal term, try a legal dictionary, not a websters
Black's Law Dictionary wrote:entrapment, n. 1. A law-enforcement officer's or government agent's inducement of a person to commit a crime, by means of fraud or undue persuasion, in an attempt to later bring a criminal prosecution against that person. To establish entrapment (in most states), the defendant must show that he or she would not have committed the crime but for the fraud or undue persuasion.
Well obviously, I wasn't speaking in a legal term. I guess I sould of said "a set up".
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Post by Kargyle »

The child is a tard, but be that as it may, that does not give the teacher carte blanche to discipline him. The teacher handled the situation in the worst way possible, short of actually striking the student. For one thing, he gave the student exactly what the student wanted. He would have done much better to simply ask the child to wait in the hallway during the pledge. If the child refused then the teacher is clearly within his rights to send the child to the office to be disciplined.

As far as people saying a child has no rights at school, nothing could be farther from the truth. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, simply because your student hand book says something doesn't make it legal. I never stood for the pledge or announcements when I was in school. One of my teachers hassled me about it once, and I immediately left class on my own, I talked to the principal and never had another problem with that teacher. Our student handbook also had rules about standing for the pledge and national anthem.

In this case, the student should get a formal apology, and the teacher should be privately reprimanded. The student recording the incident should also be reprimanded depending on the schools rules about the use of recording devices on campus. One thing that does seem clear, the teacher was being set up, and the school definately needs to move to squash that. The last thing any school needs or wants is students actively seeking ways to undermine the authority of teachers.
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Post by Kelshara »

You fucking people kill me. You seriously have some fucked up, short sighted, small minded ways of looking at life.
Anybody else noticed that at first everybody called Midnyte short sighted and narrow minded (and rightfully so), and then he heard it so many times he started saying it to everybody else in every thread? It's like a cut and paste reply to every single thread.
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Generalizations are dangerous. There are as many asshole teachers as there are of other professions.

On a side note, do most schools actually pledge and/or use the anthem every single day? Holy shit... why???
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Post by Spang »

The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag of the United States, according to James A. Moss, an authority on the flag and its history, was first given national publicity through the official program of the National Public School Celebration of Columbus Day in October 1892. The Pledge had been published in theYouth's Companion for September 8,1892, and at the same time sent out in leaflet form throughout the country.During the Celebration it was repeated by more than 12,000,000 public school pupils in every state in the Union.
Mr. Francis Bellamy of Rome, New York, and Mr. James Upham of Malden, Massachusetts were both members of the staff of the Youth's Companion when the Pledge was published. The family of each man has contended that his was the authorship and both hold evidence to substantiate their claims.

To determine, in the interest of historical accuracy, the actual authorship, the United States Flag Association (formerly in Washington, D.C., but now disbanded), in 1939, appointed a committee consisting of Charles C. Tansill,Professor of American History; W. Reed West, Professor of Political Science; and Bernard Mayo, Professor of American History, to carefully weigh the evidence of the two contending families. Unanimously, the committee decided in favor of Francis Bellamy, and on May 18, 1939, the decision was accepted by the American Flag Committee. Mr. Bellamy had been chairman of the executive committee which formulated the program for the National Public School Celebration and furnished the publicity when he was on the staff of the Youth's Companion.

In the material which he nationally circulated, he wrote, “Let the flag float over every school-house in the land and the exercise be such as shall impress upon our youth the patriotic duty of citizenship.” He also included the original 23 words of the Pledge which he had developed. * 'to' added in October, 1892.

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and (to*) the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.


Thus it was that on Columbus Day in October 1892, the Pledge of Allegiance was repeated by more than 12 million public school children in every state in the union.

The wording of the Pledge has been modified three times.

On June 14, 1923, at the First National Flag Conference held in Washington, D.C., under the 'leadership of the American Legion and the Daughters of the American Revolution, changed the Pledge's words. The latter words were added on the ground that some foreign-born children and adults when giving the Pledge might have in mind the flag of their native land.In 1923, the words “the flag of the United States” were substituted for “my flag.”

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

In 1924, “of America” was added.

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.


On Flag Day June 14, 1954, the words “under God” were added

The last change in the Pledge of Allegiance occurred on June 14 (Flag Day), 1954 when President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved adding the words "under God". As he authorized this change he said: "In this way we are reaffirming the transcendence of religious faith in America's heritage and future; in this way we shall constantly strengthen those spiritual weapons which forever will be our country's most powerful resource in peace and war."
This was the last change made to the Pledge of Allegiance. The 23 words what had been initially penned for a Columbus Day celebration now comprised a Thirty-one profession of loyalty and devotion to not only a flag, but to a way of life....the American ideal. Those words now read:

“I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with liberty and justice for all.”

The Pledge of Allegiance continued to be recited daily by children in schools across America, and gained heightened popularity among adults during the patriotic fervor created by World War II. It still was an "unofficial" pledge until June 22, 1942 when the United States Congress included the Pledge to the Flag in the United States Flag Code (Title 36). In 1945 the Pledge to the Flag received its official title as: The Pledge of Allegiance




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When the Pledge is being given, all should stand with the right hand over the heart, fingers together and horizontal with the arm at as near a right angle as possible. After the words "justice to all," the arm should drop to the side. While giving the Pledge of Allegiance all should face the flag.

According to Colonel Moss, no disrespect is displayed by giving the Pledge with a gloved hand over the heart, but he calls our attention to the fact that an Army Officer or an enlisted man always removes his right glove upon taking his oath as a witness. The Daughters of the American Revolution follow the custom of having the right hand ungloved.

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The idea of the annual PAUSE FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE originated in 1980 at the Star-Spangled Banner Flag House in Baltimore, Maryland. The National Flag Day Foundation. Inc. was created in 1982 “to conduct educational programs throughout the United States in promotion of National Flag Day and to encourage national patriotism by promotion of the PAUSE FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGiANCE.”

On June 20, 1985, the Ninety-Ninth Congress passed and President Reagan signed Public Law 99-54 recognizing the PAUSE FOR THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE as part of National Flag Day activities. It is an invitation urging all Americans to participate on Flag Day, June 14, 7:00 p.m. (EDT) in reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.
it's apart of our culture.
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Post by Lynks »

Midnyte often starts to call names when he doesn't agree with people as he had shown many times before this thread. Its fucking funny the amount of hypocrisy that oozes out of his posts.
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Post by Lohrno »

I've seen this video before, and as far as I can tell the teacher did not pull the chair out from under the kid, flooring him or anything. So I think that part was okay.

But the way he treated the rest of the class I think was unacceptable. He should be fired for that, not for the chair incident.
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Post by Zaelath »

Kelshara wrote:
You fucking people kill me. You seriously have some fucked up, short sighted, small minded ways of looking at life.
Anybody else noticed that at first everybody called Midnyte short sighted and narrow minded (and rightfully so), and then he heard it so many times he started saying it to everybody else in every thread? It's like a cut and paste reply to every single thread.
Teachers are saints.
Generalizations are dangerous. There are as many asshole teachers as there are of other professions.

On a side note, do most schools actually pledge and/or use the anthem every single day? Holy shit... why???
Why do you think Americans are so sure of themselves all the time? They brain-wash patriotism into them in school.
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Post by Lohrno »

Actually most schools make you stand for the pledge of allegiance I think.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Lynks wrote:Midnyte often starts to call names when he doesn't agree with people as he had shown many times before this thread. Its fucking funny the amount of hypocrisy that oozes out of his posts.
Wrong! You fucking idiot! (Just kidding)

I get heated indeed. I use curse words indeed. It is my nature. It's not that you don't see it the way I do, it's that you don't look beyond the face of it. You don't look past just simple arguments as "FREEDOM OF SPEECH!"......"FREEDOM NOT TO STAND UP AND SHOW RESPECT!"

It's ignorant and juvenile. Try and bash me all you want to make yourself look and feel better, but it won't stop it from being true.

You don't look deeper into much of anything from all your cynical posts over the last few years. It's pathetic and down right frightening.

Now go ahead and post my "Fuck Muslims" quote and run off thinking you made a point.
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Post by Sueven »

The kid was probably a dick, and he probably should get his ass beat by his peers, and he probably will.

That being said, I am almost positive that, in a legal sense it is his constitutional right to sit. This contradicts what Kilmoll and Marbus have claimed. You are right in that the rights of a minor are significantly different than the rights of an adult. You are also right in that the rights of minors are different when they are in school than when they are out of school. However, I believe that this specific right-- the right to not be made to stand for either the pledge or the national anthem-- has been debated and specifically upheld as pertains to minors in a public school. If anyone has a real source which contradicts this, I would love to see it.

Provided that my previous paragraph is correct then the teacher should of course be disciplined.

On a somewhat different note:

Kelshara: Yes, public schools do generally run through that shit every day. In my school, we did not sing or play the national anthem, but we did start every day off with the pledge of allegiance. Every student and teacher would stand silently, with his hand over his heart, and recite the pledge. We did have situations where people altered the words or refused to stand or disrupted the ritual in some other way, but it never became a disciplinary problem or anything.

You also asked "why?" That question I can't really answer. I can give you a few reasons why I think it's a bad idea:

1. Forcing someone to recite a pledge does not produce patriotism, virtue, responsibility, or any other positive characteristic whatsoever. In truth, all it did was make a bunch of kids chafe at being controlled by their school and their country. Saying a bunch of meaningless words that someone else has written down and forced you to recite is arbitrary and pointless, and people intuitively recognize this. As such, the daily recitation turned into, at best, an irritating daily drudgery, and at worst, an offensive and angering mechanism of control. Whether or not anyone thinks that this should be the effect of kids reciting a pledge or not, it is. If you don't believe me, go spend a few days in some high schools.

2. It is a method of conditioning. It's not 'brainwashing,' as that is a complex term with far more dangerous implications than a silly benign ritual deserves. It is, however, just another mechanism to subtly reinforce the ideas that we have been taught to have regarding our political identity and our country. This is a discussion that is far more complex than I can hope to summarize in a VV post, but I think the point is relatively self-evident.
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Post by Marbus »

Damn good post Sueven, I'll see if I can find out more info. I too remember hearing things about it but thought the decision was how I stated, I could be wrong though.

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Post by Brotha »

I don't see how making someone stand for the National Anthem is violating their Constitutional rights. Yes, the Supreme Court has ruled you can choose not to stand for the Pledge of Allegience and that you can't be forced to salute the flag, but AFAIK they haven't said a word about the National Anthem. As I said earlier, you're not swearing allegiance, you're not saluting, and God is not mentioned at all in the National Anthem. I realize they claim he also made them stand for the Pledge of Allegiance, but I'm talking about this specific case.

After doing a search for this I also found a couple of other things.

1. The entire video tape is 10+ minutes long. In the full tape it clearly shows the students antagonizing the teacher to get him into that sort of frothing rage. Sure the teacher obviously shouldn't get that angry, but it's not like these were a bunch of innocent kids. Whether making them standing for the National Anthem is constitutional or not, they deserved to be suspended for their actions that day, I don't see how anyone can argue against that.

2. Another reason why the student was suspended, besides making the videotape, was for skipping class.

Some people are talking about how teacher got all violent and pulled the chair out from under the student. Come on, watch the tape. He doesn't yank the chair out from under him in an effort to make him fall or anything. I'd be willing to bet that if the student hadn't of stood up when the teacher first grabbed the chair the teacher would have let go of it rather than make him fall.

If the student does have the Constitutional right to sit during the National Anthem, the teacher obviously made a mistake and the principal should make sure the teacher allows for it in the future- that should be the extent to which he should be disciplined. With all the other bad things I've read about teachers doing lately, a teacher making a student stand for the National Anthem shouldn't even be on the radar screen. A bunch of people who are paranoid about patriotism and the "direction they see the country going in today" are trying to make this into a bigger issue than it should be.

It's quite possible the teacher could careless about patriotism and he just wanted to make a bunch of typical punk teenagers follow his rules after getting ran over constantly by them, and I can't say I'd blame him.
Freedom of speech makes it much easier to spot the idiots.
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Post by Chmee »

Some interesting commentary on the source of the Pledge.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=3296
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