Lohrno wrote:Yes, that is why we must do all in our power to protect innocent lives.
No. Wrong.
We have had this discussion before. If you abstained from doing anything that wasn't perfect, you would do nothing ever. You must think. You showed wonderful creativity hosting the Mafia game. Why is it you seem to have none whatsoever now?
And thus we return to a main point in this debate... where do we draw the line at the consequences of imperfect actions for the greater good?
I would say that being imperfect in something as permanent as ending somebody's life with government sanctioning (outside of direct defense of the state) is something that imperfection CANNOT be tolerated in.
However, there are many other instances where the consequences of imperfection are beneath that line - or the consequences of not doing the action rise above that line, and therefore we go ahead with them. As a quick example, the tax code. Yes, there are imperfections in the system, but the consequences for not enforcing one are dire, and the consequences for the imperfections are small. In the debate at hand, the consequences for NOT administering the death penalty are quite small - the persons convicted of death penalty crimes are not going to be released from prison, therefore killing them or not killing them represents the SAME end, removal from society at large.
The only motive in my mind for the death penalty is for revenge, and that's not something that I want to be part of. Revenge is not a good enough reason to kill somebody in my name.
The thing that you seem to not get is that putting people in prison for the rest of their life is in fact a viable option. You don't hear about too many jail breaks from maximum security prisons.
That said, there's no reason locking away someone for life is any less secure than executing them. I have faith in our prison system at this point. And I don't want to be on the receiving end of the death penalty at the moment. I'm hearing a lot of stories now of people who are now being released because of DNA evidence that showed that they could not have committed said crimes.
Look, as far as religion goes, I'm agnostic/don't know. But I do have a very strong ethical problem with executing innocent people. It's not the kind of world I want my kids to grow up in... Especially when we now have other alternatives.
EDIT: You want a creative solution? How about developing the technology to scan someon's brain to see if they killed the person and are not just out of their mind to the point that they made it up. Or the ability to see through time to see if the events happened as they did.
Lohrno wrote:
EDIT: You want a creative solution? How about developing the technology to scan someon's brain to see if they killed the person and are not just out of their mind to the point that they made it up. Or the ability to see through time to see if the events happened as they did.
Such a thing doesn't exist. When and if it does, it will not be 100% either. Everything has a fuck-up factor. Everything. Why should we pay to house killers for decades on end? Why? Shoot them in the back of the head and bury them in mass graves for killers. I don't give a fuck.
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Everything has a fuck-up factor. Everything. Why should we pay to house killers for decades on end? Why? Shoot them in the back of the head and bury them in mass graves for killers. I don't give a fuck.
Because you can shoot an innocent person in the back of the head. Honestly, if you can proove to me beyond a total shadow of a doubt that there is no way they could not have done it, I'll jump on board with you in not giving a fuck. Throw em in the local garbage incinerator.
But the thing is we have a chance prevent people from dying needlessly. Why not take it? Is it too inconvenient?
Xzion wrote:
...you conservatives truly have to have a perverted sense of religion and a really fucked up ideology if you think Jesus would support the death penalty...
When you subscribe to my ideology of Realism, you don't have to worry about what make-believe Gods would think about anything. You do things because they are right and just. If some asshole takes a life, he or she is no longer a worthy contributor to society and therefore has forsaken his/her right to exist in this world.
do you not understand that conservatives base there entire political philosphy on the belif of these "make believe gods"?
-xzionis human mage on mannoroth
-zeltharath tauren shaman on wildhammer
Xzion wrote:
...you conservatives truly have to have a perverted sense of religion and a really fucked up ideology if you think Jesus would support the death penalty...
When you subscribe to my ideology of Realism, you don't have to worry about what make-believe Gods would think about anything. You do things because they are right and just. If some asshole takes a life, he or she is no longer a worthy contributor to society and therefore has forsaken his/her right to exist in this world.
do you not understand that conservatives base there entire political philosphy on the belif of these "make believe gods"?
I'm aware the large majority of all politicans are religious. Could you possibly point out anything more obvious?
And yet again i got hit by the irony of Midnyte sig:
Such a thing doesn't exist. When and if it does, it will not be 100% either. Everything has a fuck-up factor. Everything. Why should we pay to house killers for decades on end? Why? Shoot them in the back of the head and bury them in mass graves for killers. I don't give a fuck.
_________________
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. - Soren Kierkegaard
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich"
Hesten wrote:And yet again i got hit by the irony of Midnyte sig:
Such a thing doesn't exist. When and if it does, it will not be 100% either. Everything has a fuck-up factor. Everything. Why should we pay to house killers for decades on end? Why? Shoot them in the back of the head and bury them in mass graves for killers. I don't give a fuck.
_________________
People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use. - Soren Kierkegaard
from my point of view, my party is filled with both extremes of the intelligence factor. some of the brightest are balanced out with some of the dumbest, mindless, asshats. on behalf of the republicans i apologize for midnyte. please don't judge me with the same ruler.
mid, what if you were thrown into the equation as part of the fuck up factor. i agree with the death penalty but that is the WRONG point of view to argue from. that's like saying you don't give a fuck that innocent civilians are killed in iraq. part of the fuck up factor right?
My goal is to live forever. So far so good.
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Benjamin Franklin
Xzion wrote:
...you conservatives truly have to have a perverted sense of religion and a really fucked up ideology if you think Jesus would support the death penalty...
When you subscribe to my ideology of Realism, you don't have to worry about what make-believe Gods would think about anything. You do things because they are right and just. If some asshole takes a life, he or she is no longer a worthy contributor to society and therefore has forsaken his/her right to exist in this world.
do you not understand that conservatives base there entire political philosphy on the belif of these "make believe gods"?
I'm aware the large majority of all politicans are religious. Could you possibly point out anything more obvious?
heres something more obvious i can point out, conservatives make there agendas based on how they believe these "make believe gods" will look down apon them, most liberals make an agenda that isnt tainted by religious belifs...
-xzionis human mage on mannoroth
-zeltharath tauren shaman on wildhammer
nobody wrote:
mid, what if you were thrown into the equation as part of the fuck up factor.
Okay, I'm for the death penalty now! =D Sounds like a good idea!
i agree with the death penalty but that is the WRONG point of view to argue from. that's like saying you don't give a fuck that innocent civilians are killed in iraq. part of the fuck up factor right?
In all fairness to Midnyte I don't think he's saying that he doesn't give a fuck. (I would hope) I think he's saying that it is okay and for the greater good that a few innocent people die to institute a death penalty so that these murderer have no chance of striking again. I would say that life in prison (not a life sentence, but you're locked up for good) is the same effect, and those who are innocent have the chance to prove it still. I'm also saying that we have the chance to not kill innocent people here, and we should take it by not having a death penalty.
That's really my only argument against it. But not killing innocent people is a powerful enough argument...He thinks that it's not worth it...
What do you think? Is the fuck up factor acceptable?
Xzion wrote:heres something more obvious i can point out, conservatives make there agendas based on how they believe these "make believe gods" will look down apon them, most liberals make an agenda that isnt tainted by religious belifs...
???
There are just as many non-religious Democrats as there are non-religious Republicans. Prove me wrong. Just because an image has been portrayed over the media, pigeonholing all Republicans as bible thumpers, doesn't make it true.
Political ideology does not equal religious beliefs.
heres something more obvious i can point out, conservatives make there agendas based on how they believe these "make believe gods" will look down apon them, most liberals make an agenda that isnt tainted by religious belifs...
My 'make believe God' doesn't factor into my political equation. Am I going to try to do right by the Lord? Well, yes, I try for that every day. Am I going to try to impose my set of morals on everyone else? Not my position to do so.
My 'agenda' is based on finding the best ways to help the most people in the shortest possible time span with long term results. If that means I'm legislating morality or if it means that I'm trying to earn favor with the Guy Upstairs in your eyes, so be it, but I'd like to ask you to remove the blinders from your eyes that lumps every decision made by someone with a religion or a viewpoint that differs from your narrow spectrum because when you do not do so, you come across with a complete lack of credibility of any kind whatsoever.
Akaran of Mistmoore, formerly Akaran of Veeshan I know I'm good at what I do, but I know I'm not the best.
But I guess that on the other hand, I could be like the rest.
i think the greater good is ensuring midnyte's seed does not taint the earth.
that is pretty fucked up of you to say something like that. why don't you go talk to the people who's lives have been directly affected by the violence over there and tell them face to face you don't give a fuck about what has happened to them or their families. what a self-righteous, pretentious, son of a bitch you are midnyte! i really don't believe you don't give a fuck. i do believe you are a stupid enough troll to say it though.
My goal is to live forever. So far so good.
The U. S. Constitution doesn't guarantee happiness, only the pursuit of it. You have to catch up with it yourself. - Benjamin Franklin
heres something more obvious i can point out, conservatives make there agendas based on how they believe these "make believe gods" will look down apon them, most liberals make an agenda that isnt tainted by religious belifs...
My 'make believe God' doesn't factor into my political equation. Am I going to try to do right by the Lord? Well, yes, I try for that every day. Am I going to try to impose my set of morals on everyone else? Not my position to do so.
My 'agenda' is based on finding the best ways to help the most people in the shortest possible time span with long term results. If that means I'm legislating morality or if it means that I'm trying to earn favor with the Guy Upstairs in your eyes, so be it, but I'd like to ask you to remove the blinders from your eyes that lumps every decision made by someone with a religion or a viewpoint that differs from your narrow spectrum because when you do not do so, you come across with a complete lack of credibility of any kind whatsoever.
your pro-life because you believe a fetus has a "soul" implanted into it before it even has a brain...that is a religious belif, and i have no problem with that view...but to say most conservative ideals arnt based on religion is like saying most Nazis didnt really have a problem with jews
most conservatives are against gay rights because there religion states that being gay is a sin...that is a FACT, i can think of at least 10 other positions off the top of my head
-xzionis human mage on mannoroth
-zeltharath tauren shaman on wildhammer
