Airliner to sue over Bush trip which cost millions in losses

[Kelshara]

And asskissing comments do?

[Aruman]

And negative comments do?

I can play the same stupid game as long as you can.

[Niffoni]

I admit to a certain fascination with the steady atrophy of reasoned argument in this thread. It's kinda like buying a bowl of fruit and watching it rot, except it doesn't take as long.

[Aruman]

I admit to a certain fascination with the steady atrophy of reasoned argument in this thread. It's kinda like buying a bowl of fruit and watching it rot, except it doesn't take as long.

Good observation!

Seems to be a pattern with most threads when it comes to President Bush.

Threads degenerate something like this:

1. A thread is posted with somewhat interesting perspectives on different current events.
2. Comments from several people who feel strongly one way or the other appear.
3. Evasive maneuvering and attempts to divert attention away from their own comments after being questioned on their opinions.
4. Someone rehashes of old buzzwords and events leading up to the present, hoping to bring out the lurkers.
5. Lurkers take the bait and cause an uproar with their own 'comments'.
6. Personal attacks start, mostly calling someone stupid etc... without using their own intelligence to realize that personal attacks are even more stupid.
7. 2 -5 word comments become more common , which are completely irrelevant to the original thread topic.
8. Hijack complete.

1 - 3 being the most interesting...

4 and below... not worth the time to read, but you can't help but read them.

[Zaelath]

I admit to a certain fascination with the steady atrophy of reasoned argument in this thread. It's kinda like buying a bowl of fruit and watching it rot, except it doesn't take as long.

Good observation!

Seems to be a pattern with most threads when it comes to President Bush.

Threads degenerate something like this:

1. A thread is posted with somewhat interesting perspectives on different current events.
2. Comments from several people who feel strongly one way or the other appear.
3. Evasive maneuvering and attempts to divert attention away from their own comments after being questioned on their opinions.
4. Someone rehashes of old buzzwords and events leading up to the present, hoping to bring out the lurkers.
5. Lurkers take the bait and cause an uproar with their own 'comments'.
6. Personal attacks start, mostly calling someone stupid etc... without using their own intelligence to realize that personal attacks are even more stupid.
7. 2 -5 word comments become more common , which are completely irrelevant to the original thread topic.
8. Hijack complete.

1 - 3 being the most interesting...

4 and below... not worth the time to read, but you can't help but read them.

Using your own rhetoric, you've called anyone that calls someone stupid, stupid. What's that, the carpet bomb of stupid?

[Nick]

Aruman is a Maroon.

[Aruman]

Perfect example right here folks!

Using your own rhetoric, you've called anyone that calls someone stupid, stupid. What's that, the carpet bomb of stupid?

I assume that since Zaelath seems to disagree with this:

6. Personal attacks start, mostly calling someone stupid etc... without using their own intelligence to realize that personal attacks are even more stupid.

Zaelath is saying that using personal attacks is a sign of intelligence?


Here are a few other shining examples from this thread:

Rehashing of tired arguments and buzzwords(which have nothing to do with the topic):

Stockpiles of WMDs! Immediate threat to the US! Mobile chemical weapons factories!

So a good President has to piss off half the world, lie to the UN, invade a sovereign country on bogus reasons, kill innocents and run the economy into the largest deficit ever.

Check!

Personal attacks:

And here, ladies and gentlemen, is a classic textbook case of what we call dumbfuckery. Note the glazed over eyes, the low brainwave activity, the apparent inability to rationalize a simple fact: UN sanctions were apparently working.

My reply to the above(I'm not innocent):

Yep... yet another shithead who thinks they know me. You use personal attacks when someone disagrees with your opinion. How's that for intelligence.

Sanctions were not working, not as they were intended, that's something you just refuse to realize. Glazed over eyes fits you to a T.

And asskissing comments do?

Oops, I am hijacking the thread (number 8 in the list). I'll stop now.

[Nick]

Aruman you seem to be unable to realise your arguments are weak to the point of total irrelevancy.

Whether you take this criticism of your poorly considered arguments as a personal insult is essentially up to you sir.

I have yet to see anything other than the usual defensive refusal to acknowledge even the most basic of facts from you and until you learn to see others views (which are supported by more facts than yours are) then you will unfortunately continue to see nothing but negativity.

It's not exactly difficult to figure out mate.

We see that you think invading Iraq was a great idea, sadly you are deluded. It makes me sad that someone who is so willing to sit and wax lyrical has so little factual backup for their rhetoric. (a regular occurence since Bush came to power)

It's symptomatic of the decline in intellectual thought and discussion in the US and the world, and you are part of this problem.

Now you're no Cart, and if you can look at this and listen long enough to realise neither am I you may start to understand that this board is about discussing differing perspectives, not just getting all pissy because you are not treated with the personal respect that you think you deserve.

It is Veeshan Vault for fucks sake.

Now I think you are totally entitled to your opinion, until you become responsible for mass genocide (among other crimes), as you and your country, and President are.

You don't seem to understand the raging hypocrisy emanating from your favoured President and even your own views. It is seriously disturbing.

I have attempted to be civil here purely for your benefit so you actually don't feel quite so alienated, to be honest I appreciate the opportunity to share and compare views with you guys here, but I will not shirk from calling people out on wholly unreasonable arguments that refuse to acknowledge the REAL situation, not just what you THINK it is.

Get used to this, it is a FACT and people will not forget it because you think it's irrelevant.

All the best,

Nick

Edit: Sanctions fucked the Iraqi people up more than it fucked Saddam up, frankly my own personal opinion is that the quicker we get a clean easy renewable energy source the quicker your country and others will leave the Middle East the fuck alone.

You are the aggressors. This has gone on for too long. Start realising you do not own the world.

[Kelshara]

3. Evasive maneuvering and attempts to divert attention away from their own comments after being questioned on their opinions.

You're the master of this one.

Who has a link to a tiny violin...

This was what actually started the downward spiral of the thread. Note who said it? Oh yes, that name seems familiar doesn't it?

Of course then Winnow spewed some of his usual idiotic comments:

Go Bush! He should go to Europe more often! Send him to Ireland next to disrupt Teeny's life!

Plenty of dicussion about whether they had a case or not, examples of it happening in other places etc.. Teeny rambled a bit and Aruman continued his off-topic hijack. Yes you did, read your own posts. You know those quotes from me you claim are off-topic? Direct response to your mindless ramblings.

But I guess Aruman is just like Midnyte. Do as I say, not as I do!

[Boogahz]

Edit: Sanctions fucked the Iraqi people up more than it fucked Saddam up, frankly my own personal opinion is that the quicker we get a clean easy renewable energy source the quicker your country and others will leave the Middle East the fuck alone.

You are the aggressors. This has gone on for too long. Start realising you do not own the world.

Who's Sanctions were these? These were UN sanctions. The Oil-for-Food program was a UN program. The original sanctions were to last 90 days in order to allow Saddam to make the changes outlined in them. There were multiple things that were required in order to lift the sanctions (not just WMD related) and none were done (unless we count the WMD discussion which was only partially done). The sanctions weren't intended to last twelve years.

[Kelshara]

UN Sanctions yes.. but if I recall correctly changes to them were vetoed by the US.

[Zaelath]

Perfect example right here folks!

Using your own rhetoric, you've called anyone that calls someone stupid, stupid. What's that, the carpet bomb of stupid?

I assume that since Zaelath seems to disagree with this:

6. Personal attacks start, mostly calling someone stupid etc... without using their own intelligence to realize that personal attacks are even more stupid.

Zaelath is saying that using personal attacks is a sign of intelligence?

I'm not saying that either. I see your grasp of logic hasn't improved.

Sometimes "resorting" to personal attacks are just lack of the ability to construct an argument, sometimes it's frustration at just how ignorant and obsequious someone is, sometimes it's just a trolling asshole.

There's no provable link between attacking someone and intelligence; either way.

[Boogahz]

I've been reading information on the sanctions for a few days now, and I see US representatives calling for expanding items in them in order to lessen the impact on the Iraqi people. The more recent (pre-invasion) items appear to be rejected by the US who wanted a firm measure put in place if the requirements were not met. Once again, the original sanction was not intended to last twelve years. Here is a very long read, but it's much shorter than just posting all of each resolution. The resolution prior to these, 660, was the one acknowledging the hostilities in the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait.

Resolution 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990 imposed economic sanctions on Iraq, including a full trade embargo barring all imports from and exports to Iraq, excepting only medical supplies, foodstuffs, and other items of humanitarian need, as determined by the Security Council sanctions committee, which was also established by Resolution 661. The sanctions committee was chaired at the beginning of 2004 by the Ambassador of Romania, with the delegations of the Philippines and Pakistan providing vice chairmen.

Resolution 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, the cease-fire resolution, declared that the full trade embargo against Iraq would remain in place, pending periodic reviews every 60 days (para. 21) and every 120 days (para. 28) of Iraqi compliance with the obligations imposed under Resolution 687.

Resolution 712 (1991) of 19 September 1991 allowed for a partial lifting of the embargo, which would have enabled Iraq to sell some oil to use the proceeds for humanitarian purposes. In return, Iraq would have been subject to strict UN monitoring of the contracts and distribution of humanitarian goods bought with the oil revenues.

Resolution 986 (1995)of 14 April 1995 enables Iraq to sell up to $1 billion of oil every 90 days and use the proceeds for humanitarian supplies to the country. On 20 May 1996, the UN and the Government of Iraq concluded the Memorandum of Understanding that codified the practical arrangements for the implementation of the oil-for-food agreement. The sanctions committee subsequently adopted on 8 August 1996 the Procedures for the implementation of Resolution 986. On 9 December 1996, the Secretary-General reported to the Security Council (S/1996/1015) that all the steps necessary to ensure the effective implementation of Resolution 986 had been concluded. As a result, Resolution 986 went into effect at 00.01 hours Eastern Standard Time on 10 December 1996. The first food shipment arrived in Iraq on 20 March 1997.

Resolution 1051 (1996) of 27 March 1996 established the export/import monitoring system for Iraq. Iraq and countries exporting to Iraq must notify UNSCOM (United Nations Special Commission) and the IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) regarding the supply of "dual-use" items to Iraq. Such items are subject to inspection upon their arrival in Iraq as well as at the site where the items will be used.

Resolution 1111 (1997) of 4 June 1997 decided that the provisions of Resolution 986, except those contained in paragraphs 4,11 and 12, shall remain in force for another period of 180 days beginning at 00.01 hours, Eastern Daylight Time, on 8 June 1997; further decided to conduct a thorough review of all aspects of the implementation of this resolution 90 days after the entry into force of paragraph 1 and again prior to the end of the 180 day period, on receipt of the reports referred to in paragraphs 3 and 4, and expressed its intention, prior to the end of the 180 day period, to consider favourably renewal of the provisions of this resolution, provided that the reports referred to in paragraphs 3 and 4 indicate that those provisions are being satisfactorily implemented.

Resolution 1115 (1997) of 21 June 1997 decided not to conduct the reviews provided for in paragraphs 21 and 28 of resolution 687 (1991) until after the Special Commission submits its next consolidated progress report due on 11 October 1997, after which time those reviews will resume in accordance with Resolution 687.

Resolution 1129 (1997) of 12 September 1997 decided that the provisions of Resolution 1111 should remain in force, except that States are authorized to permit the import of petroleum and petroleum products originating in Iraq, including financial and other essential transactions directly relating thereto, sufficient to produce a sum not exceeding a total of one billion United States dollars within a period of 120 days from 00.01 hours, Eastern Daylight Time, on 8 June 1997 and, thereafter, a sum not exceeding a total of one billion United States dollars within a period of 60 days from 00.01 hours, Eastern Daylight Time, on 4 October 1997; and decided further that the provisions of paragraph 1 shall apply only to the period of implementation of Resolution 1111.

Resolution 1134 (1997) dated 23 October 1997 expressed the firm intention, if Iraq does not comply with paragraphs 2 and 3 of Resolution 1115, to adopt measures which would oblige all States to prevent without delay the entry into or transit through their territories of all Iraqi officials and members of the Iraqi armed forces who are responsible for or participate in the instances of non-compliance of paragraphs 2 and 3 of Resolution 1115. It decided not to conduct the reviews provided for in paragraphs 21 and 28 of Resolution 687 until after the next consolidated progress report of the Special Commission, due on 11 April 1998, after which those reviews will resume in accordance with Resolution 687, beginning on 26 April 1998.

Resolution 1137 (1997) dated 12 November 1997 imposed travel restrictions on all Iraqi officials and members of the Iraqi armed forces who were responsible for or participated in the instances of non-compliance including the denial of entry to Iraq to Special Commission officials on the grounds of their nationality and the denial of entry to sites designated by the Special Commission for inspection to Special Commission inspectors on the grounds of their nationality. The resolution decided that the review provided in paragraphs 21 and 28 of Resolution 687 shall resume in April 1998 in accordance with paragraph 8 of Resolution 1134, provided that the Government of Iraq shall have rescinded its decision of 29 October 1997 to impose conditions on cooperation with the Special Commission.

By Resolution 1143 (1997) of 4 December 1997 the Security Council decided that the provisions of Resolution 986, except those contained in paragraphs 4, 11 and 12, shall remain in force for another period of 180 days beginning at 00.01 hours, Eastern Standard Time, on 5 December 1997.

By Resolution 1153 (1998) of 20 February 1998 the Security Council decided that the provisions of Resolution 986, except those contained in paragraphs 4, 11 and 12, shall remain in force for a new period of 180 days beginning at 00.01 hours, Eastern Standard Time, on the day after the President of the Council has informed the members of the Council that he has received the report of the Secretary-General requested in paragraph 5 of Resolution 1153, on which date the provisions of Resolution 1143, if still in force, shall terminate, except as regards sums already produced pursuant to that resolution prior to that date.

Also by Resolution 1153, the Security Council decided that the authorization given to States by paragraph 1 of Resolution 986 shall permit the import of petroleum and petroleum products originating in Iraq, including financial and other essential transactions directly relating thereto, sufficient to produce a sum, in the 180-day period referred to in paragraph 1 of Resolution 1153, not exceeding a total of 5.256 billion United States dollars, of which the amounts recommended by the Secretary-General for the food/nutrition and health sectors should be allocated on a priority basis, and of which between 682 million United States dollars and 788 million United States dollars shall be used for the purpose referred to in paragraph 8 (b) of Resolution 986, except that if less than 5.256 billion United States dollars worth of petroleum or petroleum products is sold during the 180 days period, particular attention will be paid to meeting the urgent humanitarian needs in the food/nutrition and health sectors and the Secretary-General may provide a proportionately smaller amount for the purpose referred to in paragraph 8 (b) of Resolution 986.

By Resolution 1158 (1998) of 25 March 1998 the Security Council decided that the provisions of Resolution 1143 shall remain in force, subject to the provisions of Resolution 1153, except that States are authorized to permit the import of petroleum and petroleum products originating in Iraq, including financial and other essential transactions directly relating thereto, sufficient to produce a sum not exceeding a total of 1.4 billion United States dollars within the period of 90 days from 00.01 hours, Eastern Standard Time, on 5 March 1998.

Resolution 1175 (1998) of 19 June 1998 authorized States, subject to the provisions of paragraph 2 of the resolution, to permit, notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph 3 (c) of Resolution 661, the export to Iraq of the necessary parts and equipment to enable Iraq to increase the export of petroleum and petroleum products, in quantities sufficient to produce the sum established in paragraph 2 of Resolution 1153.

By the same resolution, the Committee established by Resolution 661, or a panel of experts appointed by that Committee may approve contracts for the parts and equipment and up to a total of 300 million United States dollars may be used for that purpose.

Resolution 1175 also noted that the distribution plan approved by the Secretary-General on 29 May 1998, or any new distribution plan agreed by the Government of Iraq and the Secretary-General, will remain in effect, as required, for each subsequent periodic renewal of the temporary humanitarian arrangements for Iraq and that, for this purpose, the plan will be kept under constant review and amended as necessary through the agreement of the Secretary-General and the Government of Iraq and in a manner consistent with Resolution 1153.

Resolution 1194 (1998) of 9 September 1998 decided not to conduct the review scheduled for October 1998 provided for in paragraphs 21 and 28 of Resolution 687, and not to conduct any further such reviews until Iraq rescinds its above-mentioned decision of 5 August 1998 and the Special Commission and the IAEA report to the Council that they are satisfied that they have been able to exercise the full range of activities provided for in their mandates, including inspections.

By Resolution 1194, the Security Council also reaffirmed its intention to act in accordance with the relevant provisions of Resolution 687 on the duration of the prohibitions referred to in that resolution and notes that by its failure so far to comply with its relevant obligations Iraq has delayed the moment when the Council can do so.

By Resolution 1210 (1998) of 24 November 1998, the Security Council decided that the provisions of Resolution 986, except those contained in paragraphs 4, 11 and 12, shall remain in force for a new period of 180 days beginning at 00.01 hours, Eastern Standard Time, on 26 November 1998. The resolution also decided that paragraph 2 of Resolution 1153 shall remain in force and shall apply to the above-mentioned 180-day period.

In January 1999, the Security Council decided to establish three panels on disarmament, humanitarian issues and prisoners of war and Kuwaiti property to discuss options that would lead to the full implementation of all relevant Security Council resolutions concerning Iraq. Ambassador Amorim (Brazil) chaired all three panels. He submitted the panels' reports in the spring of 1999 (S/1999/356), and the Council considered the recommendations contained therein.

Resolution 1242 (1999) of 21 May 1999, extended the oil-for-food programme for a further 180 days starting on 25 May 1999.

Resolution 1266 (1999) of 4 October 1999 decided that paragraph 2 of Resolution 1153, as extended by Resolution 1242, shall be modified to the extent necessary to authorize States to permit the import of petroleum and petroleum products originating in Iraq, including financial and other essential transactions directly related thereto, sufficient to produce an additional sum, beyond that provided for by Resolution 1242, equivalent to the total shortfall of revenues authorized but not generated under Resolutions 1210 and 1153, 3.04 billion United States dollars, within the period of 180 days from 00.01 hours, eastern standard time, on 25 May 1999.

Resolution 1281 (1999) of 10 December 1999, extended the oil-for-food programme for a further 180 days starting on 12 December 1999 (phase VII).

On 17 December 1999, after several months of intensive consultations, the Security Council adopted Resolution 1284 (1999), stressing the need for a comprehensive approach to the full implementation of all relevant Security Council resolutions and Iraq compliance with these resolutions. The resolution established the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) to undertake the responsibilities of the former UNSCOM, which was charged with monitoring the elimination of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. The resolution also removed the ceiling on Iraqi oil exports and provided for additional specific arrangements for facilitating humanitarian supplies to Iraq, including the conditional suspension of the sanctions regime.

On 8 June 2000, the Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1302 (2000) by which it extended the "oil for food" programme for a further 180-day period beginning 9 June 2000. The Council repeatedly extended the programme for 180-day periods over the following years.

Then, on 14 May 2002, the Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1409 (2002), which adopted a revised Goods Review List of military-related goods or commodities, which was to enter into effect on 30 May 2002. From that date onward, States are authorised to sell or supply any commodities not included on the Goods Review List, while the Council would regularly conduct thorough reviews of the Goods Review List.

On 28 March 2003, the Security Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1472 (2003), making technical and temporary adjustments to the "oil-for-food" programme on an interim and exceptional basis, so as to ensure the implementation of approved contracts concluded by the Government of Iraq for the relief of the Iraqi people.

The resolution authorises the Secretary-General and representatives designated by him to establish alternative locations, inside and outside Iraq, for the delivery, inspection and authenticated confirmation of humanitarian supplies and equipment under the programme. It also authorises him, among other things, to review as a matter of urgency the approved funded and non-funded contracts concluded by the Iraqi Government and to contact suppliers of those contracts and, when necessary, to require them to delay, accelerate or divert shipments. It also allows him to negotiate and execute new contracts for essential medical items.

On 25 April 2003, the Council unanimously adopted Resolution 1476 (2003), extending the provisions of Resolution 1472 until 3 June 2003.

The Security Council formally ended all sanctions, except those related to the sale or supply to Iraq of arms and related materiel, other than those required by the occupying powers to serve the purposes of Security Council resolutions, in Resolution 1483 (2003), which was adopted on 22 May 2003 by a vote of 14-0 with one country not participating in the vote.

The resolution states that, with the exception of the arms prohibitions noted above, all other sanctions established by Resolution 661 and subsequent resolutions "shall no longer apply."

It also requests that the Secretary-General will continue the exercise of his responsibilities under Resolutions 1472 and 1476 for a period of six months, and will terminate within this time period, in the most cost effective manner, the ongoing operations of the "Oil-for-Food" Programme.

[Nick]

Boogahz yes indeed they were UN sanctions, which I don't remember denying.

My issue and a lot of peoples issue in the respect of "doing something about Saddam" was the unilateral axis of US, UK and Spain and not bothering to wait for the second resolution.

[Boogahz]

You implied that one country was responsible for it which I included in my original quote. That's why I even responded about them. Same thing as my first response to the original post about the sanctions working. Also...what second resolution are you talking about? There were what...20+ before the invasion?

[Nick]

The second resolution was the one the Axis decided was not important enough just before they invaded Iraq because they had already set the wheels in motion without international backing.

I didn't imply any culpability to one nation regarding the sanctions, all I said were that the sanctions were a waste of time and fucked the people up more than Saddam.

Something a lot of people on both sides refuse to acknowledge.

However, since we put Saddam there in the first place we cannot exactly try and claim he is the devil, because If we appointed the devil, what are we?

[Boogahz]

I agree about supporting Saddam being dumb in the first place considering how he went about his business (killing those who opposed him). If something was going to be done about him, it should have been done long before he invaded Kuwait. Support for any side in a conflict always has long term consequences and not all can be determined at the time of the conflict. Not supporting either side can be as bad or worse in the long term as well. This is one area where the policy of Isolationism was found to fail decades ago.

[Aruman]

Who has a link to a tiny violin...

This was what actually started the downward spiral of the thread. Note who said it? Oh yes, that name seems familiar doesn't it?

Downward spiral or whatever you choose to call it means liitle. My 8 word comment has more to do with the topic than your regurgitated anti-Bush comments.

[Kelshara]

Yeah how dare I bring up something about Bush when the topic is.. about Bush!

[Revs]