Torured Iraqis - Bad, Tortured Americans - not so much

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » February 20, 2005, 8:47 pm

Zaelath, your question was rhetorical, and as such so was my answer.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » February 20, 2005, 9:05 pm

Well.. it was tongue-in-cheek..

While I do realise that historically the US as a nation has been reactive rather than agressive, and the citizens are good people who act as they think is right, there's a couple of glaring deviations from the path. Hiroshima is one, Bush's entire presidency is another.

And really.. it doesn't matter how much good work you do, if you fuck one goat, guess what you're remembered for?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 20, 2005, 9:42 pm

No Kylere you ignored the point, which is you claim the US has never organized evil on the level of the IRA.

Which is horribly incorrect.

The IRA have killed maybe 4000 civilians over the last 30 years.
The US.......well maybe 10000 innocent dead in Iraq in the last 2 years.

Some sane people may see that level of death and genocide (Fallujah, etc) as 'evil'. 2000 dead in Fallujah makes the IRA look like small beans in comparison

Plus take into account the the hegemonic nature and brutal history of the US which adds countless thousands more fatalities.

One example among many = Vietnam. (carpet bombing innocent people actually is evil)

Do you see how ridiculous just one of your points looks, nevermind the rest of them?

When you come out with that you just look uninformed man, how can you expect to be taken seriously if you don't actually even appear to understand what you are claiming. At all.

"Terror" as your buzzword pleads, is not the only form of evil, have you forgotten this subtlety?

nobody · Post by **nobody** » February 20, 2005, 9:54 pm

teeny my friend, when did the US ever "carpet bomb" innocent people in vietnam? even in WWII as i brought up before, the US risked flying in daylight to avoid hitting civilian targets and to better garuntee destroying ligitimate targets. we bombed jungles in vietnam to open LZ's for insertions but would like to see proof that we "carpet bombed" innocent people. i mean that's like me saying that austrailia hired american cowboy's to hunt aboriginees(sp) like dingos. or perhaps you were just tongue-in-cheek?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 20, 2005, 10:40 pm

Umm no sorry mate......spend two minutes on google if you find it so unbelievable.

Now people may disagree over what "evil" actually means, but I think we all agree that innocent people being burnt to death no matter what the intention is at least A LITTLE evil.

Now of course this man below here disagrees, but the fact still stands.

http://www.viet-remf.net/Chapter_Eight.htm

And it is tragically true, Napalm and carpet bombing, the very weapons that saved so many American lives, also took the lives of more than a few innocent Vietnamese civilians, along with those of the VC and NVA. Was it therefore an evil war, and were our motivations for being there also evil? They most certainly were NOT!

Gotta love how killing for a higher cause is justified by "OUR" side, but when some guys from Saudi Arabia do the exact same thing it's called terrorism.

The goodies and baddies argument is so riddled with hypocrisy as to be to rendered irrelevant, in case some people hadn't noticed.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » February 21, 2005, 1:30 am

Teeny, let me explain this so even you can follow

The US does not make civilians primary targets

The IRA does

I hate to say it but your points are invalidated on a different level as well, guess what the death toll was in IRaq each year to Saddam's forces?

Try a google on that

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 21, 2005, 2:21 am

They may not intentionally target civilians (at least not today I hope) but the end result is the same for both, and thats what really counts.

VariaVespasa · Post by **VariaVespasa** » February 21, 2005, 7:47 am

Kylere wrote:
VariaVespasa wrote:Ok on the rest of the japanese stuff, but I'm not actually sure how Pearl Harbor rates as one of the worst offenses... Purely military target, against a country that wasnt really paying attention. Granted it woulda been better if they hadnt screwed the pooch on getting their declaration of war delivered at the intended time rather than several hours late, but still, it was a daring strike in dangerous waters against purely military targets. Hardly an attrocity.

*hugs*
Varia
Cool so we can attack and kill thousands without saying anything first and it is okay then, as long as we plan on declaring war?

They thought they already HAD declared war by the time the first planes attacked. The official declaration had been dispatched with orders to be delivered BEFORE the attack occurred. The intent to be formally at war before the attack occurred is indisputable. Fuckups delayed the delivery till after the attack but neither the japanese government nor their military were aware of the delay till it was too late. Pay attention, asshat.

Varia

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 21, 2005, 8:47 am

VariaVespasa wrote:
Kylere wrote:
VariaVespasa wrote:Ok on the rest of the japanese stuff, but I'm not actually sure how Pearl Harbor rates as one of the worst offenses... Purely military target, against a country that wasnt really paying attention. Granted it woulda been better if they hadnt screwed the pooch on getting their declaration of war delivered at the intended time rather than several hours late, but still, it was a daring strike in dangerous waters against purely military targets. Hardly an attrocity.

*hugs*
Varia
Cool so we can attack and kill thousands without saying anything first and it is okay then, as long as we plan on declaring war?

They thought they already HAD declared war by the time the first planes attacked. The official declaration had been dispatched with orders to be delivered BEFORE the attack occurred. The intent to be formally at war before the attack occurred is indisputable. Fuckups delayed the delivery till after the attack but neither the japanese government nor their military were aware of the delay till it was too late. Pay attention, asshat.

Varia

Nice Excuse " The Declaration of War is in the Mail"

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 21, 2005, 2:35 pm

Ummm no.....

Hiroshima, Nagasaki?

End of fucking argument.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 21, 2005, 2:53 pm

Teenybloke wrote:Ummm no.....

Hiroshima, Nagasaki?

End of fucking argument.

That was not carpet bombing that was one bomb.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » February 21, 2005, 3:02 pm

yet still.. I can agree that hiroshima and nagasaki are not high points in the US timeline.. they were not strategic bomb nor targetted at a military target.. it was the complete annihilation of two cities and all the life inside of them.

We did surprise them quite a bit more than they us... but we were also more brutal, even in absence.

It's not something we're proud of... but we obviously wanted to end that conflict very quickly and once again many would say the ends justify the means. In today's age that wouldn't work.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » February 21, 2005, 3:08 pm

i feel like the atomic bomb dropping was genocide and the ends did not justify the means at all. why couldn't we drop it a few miles off the coast and tsunami them or something.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » February 21, 2005, 5:04 pm

well for one such an act would cause unimaginable losses in every other coastal region around.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 21, 2005, 7:27 pm

Cartalas, again the point is irrelevant, I did not claim they were carpet bombs, so good work on the old comprehension there.

At the end of the day, the point I am stating is that to say the US has not committed acts of evil on a scale with the IRA is a proposterous joke of a claim, showing Kylere's (and others) complete lack of knowledge regarding their own history, and the IRA.

What exactly is hard for you to understand? I don't exactly know how much clearer I can make it, any fucking child would understand this.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » February 21, 2005, 7:35 pm

the US has done some stupid and at times evil things. i really do see your point on that. however, the good far outways the bad i think.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 21, 2005, 7:40 pm

At least you can see the point I make. This is really not just to hate the US, it is simply about actual historical fact, something many round here seem to be a bit rusty on.

Fash, cheers for replying, but frankly the war between the Japs and the US was already essentially over before the bombs were dropped, so even that assumption is based on a misdirected memory of chronology and history.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » February 21, 2005, 8:35 pm

the US would have won the war without the bomb but it was a matter of cost. both in human lives as well as monetarily. the effect of the bomb was so disgusting the US chose not to use it even though it would have provided a different outcome in the korean war. i find it slightly ironic that had we used it back then we might not be in the postion we are now with KIJ threatening the region and perhaps the US with it.

imho it would have been worth it to pay the price of men and rescources rather than use the bomb. however, being so displayed as it was may have been a hidden blessing preventing anyone so far from using it again.

Fash · Post by **Fash** » February 21, 2005, 8:51 pm

teeny pwned me

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 22, 2005, 11:31 am

Teenybloke wrote:At least you can see the point I make. This is really not just to hate the US, it is simply about actual historical fact, something many round here seem to be a bit rusty on.

Fash, cheers for replying, but frankly the war between the Japs and the US was already essentially over before the bombs were dropped, so even that assumption is based on a misdirected memory of chronology and history.

I Guess I fail to see the evil in dropping the bombs, The U.S. did not start the war did we? Maybe you could ask the residents of Nanking about what the Japanese did If I remember correctly it was upwards in the half a millon range but hey they are just Chinese they will make more right?

The Atomic bomb was justified and used End of story It would of cost many more american lives to attack Japans mainland and remember this is a war not started by the US.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » February 22, 2005, 11:44 am

but the flesh melted off of adorable little japanese children

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 22, 2005, 11:50 am

Stragi wrote:but the flesh melted off of adorable little japanese children

For that im sorry.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » February 22, 2005, 1:23 pm

Kylere wrote:
The US does not make civilians primary targets

HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAH!!!

good one.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » February 22, 2005, 1:40 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Teenybloke wrote:At least you can see the point I make. This is really not just to hate the US, it is simply about actual historical fact, something many round here seem to be a bit rusty on.

Fash, cheers for replying, but frankly the war between the Japs and the US was already essentially over before the bombs were dropped, so even that assumption is based on a misdirected memory of chronology and history.
I Guess I fail to see the evil in dropping the bombs, The U.S. did not start the war did we? Maybe you could ask the residents of Nanking about what the Japanese did If I remember correctly it was upwards in the half a millon range but hey they are just Chinese they will make more right?

The Atomic bomb was justified and used End of story It would of cost many more american lives to attack Japans mainland and remember this is a war not started by the US.

He started it, mom! ~ Best rationale for the mass murder of 250,000 civilians ever.

Just accept it, you can't take the moral high ground of "never targetting civilians".

Say I even grant you that there was no other way for you to get the W, even with 6 more months and another million casualties, how is that any different to Islamists who feel you've invaded their holiest of holies responding by using the weapons they have available and attacking your civilians?

Hell, at least the Japanese didn't vote for their jackass emporer.

miir · Post by **miir** » February 22, 2005, 2:02 pm

Then I guess it's OK for the Iraqi insurgents to kill every american in Iraq.... after all they are not evil because they didn't start the war.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 22, 2005, 2:35 pm

miir wrote:Then I guess it's OK for the Iraqi insurgents to kill every american in Iraq.... after all they are not evil because they didn't start the war.

Seeing that 99.9% of Iraq Insurgents are Al,Qeda. Yes the did !!