Goodnight NHL

Waran · Post by **Waran** » February 16, 2005, 3:29 pm

Good luck trying to bring me back

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/news;_ylc=X ... &type=lgns

miir · Post by **miir** » February 16, 2005, 3:34 pm

Pretty sad.
I've seen a few polls along the lines of 'Do you miss the NHL'. and even in hockey mad cities like here (Toronto) the overwhelming majority of the pollsters said No, they don't miss the NHL.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 16, 2005, 4:01 pm

The players are idiots. It was crystal clear from a year ago that the owners were prepared to cancel the season and were going have it their way or no way with a salary cap.

The players just lost their best offer and it's amazing the negotiators weren't bright enough to see that. With the lost season and totally broken suppurt of the fans, the offers will only get lower and lower now. The players are 100 percent to blame here.

It's also clear that the NHL is way behind the other big three in popularity so this is really a killing blow to the sport for many years to come.

Post by **Xouqoa** » February 16, 2005, 4:06 pm

Maybe ticket prices will go down after all of this... I hope!

Waran · Post by **Waran** » February 16, 2005, 4:16 pm

http://www.theuhl.com

http://www.worldhockeyassociation.net/

http://www.theahl.com/

http://www.echl.com/

Great hockey, great prices

Closest one to us is the Missouri River Otters of the UHL. $20 can get you front row seats. Look up yours and support them

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 16, 2005, 4:19 pm

Hockey had become almost as boring to watch as soccer, only with more gay touchings and grabbings. Hopefully, they will bring back a product that is FUN and EXCITING to watch like hockey in the early 90's was.

There should be skating, should be hitting, there should be scoring. IMO, high sticking or cross checking should be a penalty where you get bounced for the rest of the game. If this were actually enforced, I guarantee you there would less fighting.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » February 16, 2005, 4:20 pm

That sucks, although seeing like a 15 game season would be pretty asinine also. They had better get their shit together for 05-06, because I cannot stand it when the only pro sport available during the winter is shitty nba.

GO FLYERS 06!

On a side note, the WHL is quite good...I may have to pick up some Winterhawks tickets.

I miss hockey!

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 16, 2005, 4:20 pm

Xouqoa wrote:Maybe ticket prices will go down after all of this... I hope!

Thats what I'm hoping too.

I tried going to a few OHL games but it isnt the same.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 16, 2005, 4:37 pm

Bettman made a pretty convincing case in the press conference. I know people hate the guy, but it sounds like the Player's Union has their head in the sand.

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » February 16, 2005, 4:39 pm

As a diehard fan, I'm glad the bullshit of the last ditch negotiations is finally over. I'm also glad there isn't going to be a stupid shortened season. I agree with Winnow in that I think Bob Goodenow and the NHLPA deserve a hearty chorus of "fuck you"s. I hope these heroes who have decided to go play in Europe this year enjoy the money they are taking from $40K - $100K athletes, while they pissed away their multi-million dollar salaries.

I find it hard to sympathize with the owners who hired retards like Ron Caron in St Louis (remember the FA signings of Scot Stevens, Brendan Shanahan and Al McInnis of 10-15 years ago), Neil Smith with the New York Rangers(1 purchased Stanley Cup and no play off success after), Glen Sather who succeeded Smith in New York (a whole shit load of stupid contracts and no play off appearances), Bobby Clarke in Philadelphia ("we have to keep up with the other guys"), the Washington Capitals management team (Jagr and bust!) and Mike Milbury on Long Island (Alexei Yashin? wtf?). Honorable mention goes to the Detroit Red Wings but they actually managed to win some Cups to go with their spending spree. Most of these tards shouldn't be delivering pizza, never mind running multimillion dollar businesses and they created the situation that the league is in today. But Goodenow and the NHLPA had the power to recognize and work with the owners to rectify the situation, and refused.

I listened to the press conference for the entire hr (edit: and agreed for the most part) but think Bettman is dreaming when he says he thinks all 30 teams will be back. I think some of the weak teams, especially in the south, will fold. I don't think any new league will rise (I agree with Bettman that anyone else doesn't know the numbers like the current league does), I think it will just be a smaller NHL (not entirely a bad thing if it means better talent is concentrated as opposed to being spread thin).

If this were actually enforced, I guarantee you there would less fighting.

I agree that the interence and stick infractions need to be enforced more but if you look at the game critically, fighting (which has been the 2nd most popular event in the game) has been reduced drastically at the expense of allowing the stick infractions to increase in frequency. In the the "old days" if someone was sticked, they or a team-mate would drop the gloves with the offender (especially if it wasn't called by the refs). Now with the extra 2 minutes and possible game for instigating, the idea of players acting as their own enforcers has gone out the window in large part, as you hurt the team by taking the extra penalty. I will clarify: I love a good scrap but not games where it turns into one fight after another (all things in moderation).

On the whole, this is just one more day of frustration in a season of bitter disappointment.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 16, 2005, 4:42 pm

They do and I hated how others praised them (NHLPA) for considering a salary cap. Like c'mon, every other sport has one, it was just a matter of time.

The 42.5 million cap also had an extra 2.2 million in benefits which is really 44.7 million. Why the NHLPA couldnt go down just a bit more baffles me.

noel · Post by **noel** » February 16, 2005, 4:48 pm

Pathetic that they were never able to get a deal done.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 16, 2005, 4:48 pm

You make some very good points Wulf. Owners are mostly to blame for giving into demands of greedy players. Gaborik of the Wild comes into mind. That fucker sat out 1/3 of the season to get what he wanted and he didnt even produce.

They should all take a look at how Montreal or Ottawa handles their payroll. They have been constantly at the 40 million mark and are still good teams that can still compete (more Ottawa though)

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 16, 2005, 6:01 pm

My point Wulfran, is that high sticking and cross checking have caused or led to most of the worst injuries and fights I've ever seen in the game. If players were bounced anytime they use their stick for ANYTHING other than puck handling (and I think hooking should be included on the big "no-no" list) players wouldn't feel the need for retribution via cheap hits or dropping the gloves.

OTOH, I think that the instigating penalties have GOT to go, unless it's a clear case where one player wanted to scrap, and the other guy was just trying to get away. Fighting can really clear the air in some games, as long as it's not some goon trying to cripple a team via targeting their best scorer.

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » February 16, 2005, 6:10 pm

Wulfran wrote:Honorable mention goes to the Detroit Red Wings but they actually managed to win some Cups to go with their spending spree. Most of these tards shouldn't be delivering pizza, never mind running multimillion dollar businesses and they created the situation that the league is in today.

What is funny is that if you eat Little Ceasars pizza, you actually helped pay for the Red Wings to win those Cups. (Not that the money goes directly to the Red Wings but I did go to help Ilitch buy the Wings) Also, the Tigers, but baseball sucks. I don't know, just found it ironic that you used pizza delivery and Red wings in a the general statement.

Xorian · Post by **Xorian** » February 16, 2005, 7:21 pm

I feel sorry for you guys

Im not a huge hockey fan but i like it some and, due to the strike and then due to this, some of NHL players came to play in Switzerland... Nice to see some in action is all i can say, they added some spice here

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » February 17, 2005, 10:05 am

I don't blame the owners, and I don't blame the players.

It is the owner's faults that players make what they are making (see Wulfran's post), and now they are reaping the benefits of said hi price actions.

You can't blame the players, because the fuck if I would let my company decrease my salary by 24%. Sure, SOME of the guys make so much money, what is 8 mill a year instead of 12 mil....but they live by their means. If you made that much, you would live a 12 mil lifestyle, you would not want to change to an 8 mil lifestyle (ridiculous example, but still). Think if you are making league minimum...what it is, 250,000? It would suck to then have to take 185,000...that's a better example.

So, both parties suck, and both parties are at fault, but overall, I blame neither. I personally blame the NHL head office for letting all the fucken expansion teams in, diluting the talent pool, and letting some of those more ridiculous trades through that increased guys salary out the wahzoo.

Good luck on getting me back too.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 17, 2005, 1:32 pm

This seems pretty straight forward to me and that's the reason I'm behind the owners.

-hockey is at rock bottom and wasn't doing well before this strike
-hockey doesn't make anywhere near what the other big sports make
-the owners want to give hockey players a set percentage of the money made on the sport which allows both owners and players to increase the money they make as the sport grows in popularity (if it does) and also protects the owners from paying out the wazoo when the sport sucks which makes sense financially.
-considering how horrible the product is, it's present popularity being in the shitter, and an offer from the owners to be assured of a set percentage always going to players if the sport takes off, they should have jumped on that as soon as it was offered.
-hockey just isn't a great TV sport (unless they make some modifications like the NFL has for first down graphics on the field etc...hockey really needs the glowing puck etc to make the casual fan understand wtf is going on. (i know the purist hates it but fuck you really, it's the almighty dollar that matters and if more fans watch with a glowing puck, then put it in the game..better yet, have interactive TV like we're supposed to have to make a glowing puck an option you can select)

Totally the player's fault in the new contract with shared fault for them getting to this point with the owners for paying these guys way more than the sport is worth.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 17, 2005, 1:38 pm

All good points except for the last one. I'm against turning it into hockey for dummies. What I was never able to understand is how can't a fan follow a black puck on a white ice surface. It baffles me.

The linkage thing just showed how greedy players could be. They didnt stop to think of the future, but then again, the loudest voices in the NHLPA were all grumpy old players like Chelios, and Hull whose careers are pretty much done.

miir · Post by **miir** » February 17, 2005, 1:46 pm

hockey just isn't a great TV sport (unless they make some modifications like the NFL has for first down graphics on the field etc...hockey really needs the glowing puck etc to make the casual fan understand wtf is going on.

You gotta be kidding me.
Black puck on white ice.

The worst thing about hockey on TV is that most of the american commentators know so little about the actual game and the players. I had the misfortune of watching some Fox hockey broadcasts and they were embarrasing to listen to.
How would you feel if some Australian sports commentator was calling the play-by-play for a US college basketball game?

hockey is at rock bottom and wasn't doing well before this strike
-hockey doesn't make anywhere near what the other big sports make

In Canada and the in the North and NE US, hockey is immensely popular, rivaling baseball and the NBA in some markets. The big problem was the NHL expanding too fast into the southern states. The NHL not being super-popular in your market is not an accurate assessment of its popularity in all markets across North America.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 17, 2005, 1:51 pm

miir wrote:
hockey just isn't a great TV sport (unless they make some modifications like the NFL has for first down graphics on the field etc...hockey really needs the glowing puck etc to make the casual fan understand wtf is going on.
You gotta be kidding me.
Black puck on white ice.

I love watching Hockey in high definition on my 10 foot screen but on a small TV it's a bit more difficult to watch.

As I said, there are ways of making graphic enhancements optional with the new digital TV standards..HD is just one of the improvements. It's not all bad. I like seeing the first down yellow stripe while watching a football game. Last year, one of the networks started integrating field goal distance make percentages for kickers that displayed as if it was written on the field itself. Cool stuff. And of course, there's always the lame advertising graphic billboard behind the batters in baseball that makes the player outline fuzzy when they step in front of it.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 17, 2005, 2:59 pm

Winnow wrote:And of course, there's always the lame advertising graphic billboard behind the batters in baseball that makes the player outline fuzzy when they step in front of it.

They already started that with hockey. You can notice them on the boards themselves.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » February 17, 2005, 3:52 pm

So a bunch of Canadians and Russians don't get multi-million dollar paychecks this year? Sweet.

This has been the best year on ESPN ever. No fucking hockey ruining Sportscenter every night has been joyous. Now if we can just get soccer killed off.......

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » February 17, 2005, 9:12 pm

Lose tennis, figure skating and the NBA and I am one happy mafacka!

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 17, 2005, 9:26 pm

In Canada and the in the North and NE US, hockey is immensely popular, rivaling baseball and the NBA in some markets. The big problem was the NHL expanding too fast into the southern states. The NHL not being super-popular in your market is not an accurate assessment of its popularity in all markets across North America.

I don't really agree.

Boston? No.
New York? No.
Buffalo has no other franchises.
Philadelphia? You could argue that the Flyers are about as popular as the Phillies and Sixers. Probably less popular than the Sixers with AI around.
Minnesota? Maybe but I doubt it.
Chicago? No.
Detroit? Sure.
Colorado? Clearly eclipsed by the Broncos, but the Avalanche could be bigger than the Nuggets and Rockies, I'm not sure.

So that's three northern cities where the NHL rivals the NBA and MLB (at least pre-lockout, probably not anymore except maybe in Detroit). Coincidentally, these are three franchises that are routinely criticized for their horrific spending patterns that have helped result in some of the problems that hockey faces today.

The fact that hockey has some popularity in certain select markets does nothing to negate the fact that hockey has worse TV ratings than PBA bowling and no network is interested in televising it. Money comes from TV. TV success comes from widespread popularity. Hockey does not have widespread popularity, thus gets horrific television ratings, thus does not make money and needs to reduce itself to a niche sport in order to survive.

I'm from Philadelphia. We have one of the most popular franchises in the NHL, and are one of the few North American enclaves were people give even a slight bit of a shit about their teams. Very few people in the area care that hockey is gone. People have just taken up watching the Sixers a little more, and most agree with Kilmoll and have just said "good riddance."

Considering the outcry that resulted after the recent baseball and basketball lockouts/strikes, and their relative lack of severity compared to the NHL's current crisis, it's pretty clear that the United States doesn't give a shit about hockey. That is not intended in any way to denigrate Canada's passion for hockey. But the NHL has staked it's financial success on a model that necessitates appealing to Americans. The sport has abjectly failed to do so.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 18, 2005, 12:18 am

I read an interesting quote from Mario Lemieux in today's Atlanta Journal and Constitution.

He was basically like:

When i was a player i didnt believe the books. Now that i've been on the other side, I know they are right.

I'm kind of surprised he didnt do more to stop this, i think he could have been a very powerful influence. He is one of the 3 or 4 greatest players ever.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » February 18, 2005, 11:37 am

Sueven wrote: But the NHL has staked it's financial success on a model that necessitates appealing to Americans. The sport has abjectly failed to do so.

No kidding. Their tv contract was pushed down to espn2. Fox and abc dropped them. Hell, Niagra vs Fairfield in college b-ball would get better national ratings on espn2 than a Detriot vs Stars game.

I love hockey but I don't really give a shit since Dolan is part of the problem emerging in the first place. I'll watch my minor league games and save a shitton of cash. boo-hoo

Sad part is, the NHLPA is probably going to sign off on a non-revenue sharing $38 million cap when it is all said and done and be wishing they took the 42.5

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » February 18, 2005, 12:36 pm

i'm glad Heatley and Kovulchuk will be signed under the new agreement

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 18, 2005, 12:47 pm

Atlanta will be a very good competitor in the upcoming years. Gratz!

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » February 18, 2005, 1:59 pm

You forgot about the Bills in Buffalo, Sueven

And the statement was made that hockey rivals the NBA and MLB in some markets, not necessarily equals or exceeds.

As much as some of us longer term (and yes Canadian

) fans scoffed at the expansions, places like Columbus and Minnesota are solid and sell out to 100% capacity. So do the Rangers in New York (by the same token the Islanders and Devils are only at the 80-85% range). You take your list of cities and while they may not have been #1 they had a niche and held their own. Boston and Chicago, 2 original 6 teams are possibly the weakest (on Sueven's list) in terms of fan support, because of the fan perceptions of their owners (they won't spend to build a winner). TSN had a link up yesterday about their forecasts on what teams could be in trouble after the lockout, I'd post it but I couldn't find it this morning.

I think that a lot of Americans, who are not fans tend to under estimate the game's following, just as fans will tend to inflate it. The reality is that the NHL a $2.1 billion business (according to the numbers from Bettman and the NHL), not counting things like individual athletes' endorsements. Thats not huge in comparason to the NFL or MLB but is still significant. The fan base was plateauing a bit and I think that needed to be addressed, and losing an entire season to labour woes will definately not help matters.

I think a lot of current fans feel that some rule changes can fix some of where the game is losing its appeal (i.e. bring back more speed and scoring). But the reality is both sides have to be realistic in their monetary expectations... and that reality is shrinking in a hurry now.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 19, 2005, 10:52 am

EDIT: Nothing to see here. Apperently HockeyCanada and Wayne Gretzky arent reliable sources.

Sabek · Post by **Sabek** » February 19, 2005, 11:48 am

Wulfran wrote:
As much as some of us longer term (and yes Canadian ) fans scoffed at the expansions, places like Columbus and Minnesota are solid and sell out to 100% capacity.

Our Bluejackets might not be the best team evar, but that arena was almost always sold out every game.

On ESPN last night they were reporting the rumor was that there was an agreement in principle. They said if it got done the season would likely be a home and home with each team in your division and then the playoffs.