Chickendoves

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Brotha
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Chickendoves

Post by Brotha »

Great rebuttal of the frequently used "chickenhawk" argument thrown at anyone who's prowar but hasn't served in the military.

http://www.techcentralstation.com/021505A.html

Any yammering propeller-headed nitwit can tell the world to make love, not war, and no one can impeach his sincerity in making that plaintive demand. By contrast, anyone who supports the war had better be a card-carrying military veteran, or else be condemned as a "chickenhawk" -- no matter how wise, eloquent, or inspiring their pro-war position might be.

The problem isn't chickenhawks -- people who support the war but never served in the military, and probably never will.

The problem is stateside armchair philosophers who oppose military action and military policy, even though they never served in the military. The problem is anti-war punditry from intellectuals who think that an IED is a contraceptive and couldn't tell the difference between bounding overwatch and watching Baywatch. The problem is intellectuals who think their education and politically-correct ideology lets them know what the military needs -- better than the military knows it.

The problem is chickendoves.

In my fleeting moments of empathy, I can muster some modicum of sympathy for the condemnation of chickenhawks. I watched the remake of All Quiet on the Western Front, the same as everyone else. I remember the grotesque contrast between the enthusiasm of the naïve pro-war schoolteachers and the bloody realities of the World War I trenches. (Pro-war schoolteachers! It sounds like science fiction.) No one smiles at the thought of fat white guys in fezzes and monocles sipping cognac while pushing little men across a map, plotting out wars where poorer, browner men die to support the fantasies of empire.

But a funny thing happened on the way to the peace vigil: the allegedly poorer, allegedly browner men support the war, and the fat guys in fezzes and monocles now inveigh against it. Military support for the war and the Bush administration is exceptionally high. It's the well-to-do in the ritzy suburbs who wring their hands, mumbling "Dulce Et Decorum Est" while listening to dreary reports about the Iraqi quagmire on NPR. To generalize: the closer and more intimate you are with the war in Iraq, the more you support it.

The chickendoves don't care. Heck, what do soldiers know? They're only battle-hardened professionals with unusually high educational achievements and hands-on experience with the occupation of Iraq. That the chickenhawks are on the same side as the real hawks is just a curious accident, one that will not prevent the chickendoves from "defending" the soldiers whose opinions they casually dismiss.

"But shouldn't the burden of proof rest upon those who call for war, instead of peace? Don't the inherent dangers of war compel us to demand that its advocates walk the talk?" In brief: no and no. War is extraordinarily bad. But a bad peace can be worse. The graveyards of the world are filled with the bodies of those who died from a hateful "peace." Given the hideous acts of oppression and injustice that spring from the lack of war, why shouldn't we hold peaceniks to the higher standard of sincerity?

When peace goes awry, soldiers are often the first ones to pay the price. When America appeared irresolute in the early eighties, who suffered: the pampered professors in their cozy collegiate nooks? Or the Marines in their barracks in Lebanon? When Islamic extremists tested America's resolve, did they explode a bomb at Harvard -- or the USS Cole? When peacemongers guess wrong, soldiers die -- not peacemongers. So when will the anti-warriors put their own necks on the line for their beliefs?

Military service would give peace-lovers a chance to prove their pacifistic mettle. You want to stop the fighting in Iraq? Want to prevent American soldiers from executing their imperialistic policies of building schools and sewers and hospitals? Stow the goofy signs, soulpatch. Forget that petition. Don't send that whiny e-mail to Fox News. I have a better way: snip off your ponytail, drop thirty pounds, and enlist. With all of those master's degrees in Folklore Studies, you'll be a shoo-in to make Officer Candidate School. In no time you'll be a Platoon Leader, responsible for the combat readiness of dozens of men. When the moment is right, and the bullets start to fly, you can order your men to stand down and Give Peace a Chance. For that brief, shining moment, you will have brought peace to the Middle East and halted the genocidal policies of George W. McHitler. Admittedly, your platoon sergeant will buttstroke you to the head at the first opportunity. After a quick court-martial, you'll spend the remainder of your adult life making big rocks into little rocks in beautiful, scenic Leavenworth, Kansas. But so what? You gotta walk the talk. If you're willing to send chickenhawks off to die in order to earn the right to support war, surely you're willing to send yourself off to incarceration and dishonor in order to earn the right to support peace.

Military service is also an excellent sincerity check for peaceniks who have belatedly discovered the joys of protecting innocent Muslims. Many of us suspicious-minded pro-war types can't help but notice that many war protestors didn't lose much sleep over the lives of Iraqis and Iranians when Saddam Hussein was slaughtering both. And back when the kum-ba-yah set admitted to resenting our action in Afghanistan, they fretted over the fate of Afghanis whom they were more than happy to entrust to the tender ministrations of the Taliban before 9/11. And what about our defense of Muslims during our Bosnian action? If, chickendove, you've developed a strange new concern for the fate of Muslims worldwide, take notice: the one military in the entire world that has taken up arms in the last fifty years to defend Muslim life is the American military. Feel like enlisting yet? Or is your Ph.D. proof enough of how gosh darn much you care?

To be clear: the entire notion of "Chicken______" is absurd. A free society should act on the assumption that citizens can reason about military issues without personal military experience, just as they can reason about any issue without needing a doctorate degree to do so. If you can't trust citizens to reason intelligently outside of their personal fields of expertise, you've ceded political control to the experts. A strong insight into human nature gives citizens the capacity for reasonably wise decisions on all subjects. And insight into human nature doesn't require military discharge papers.

Moreover, we constantly make political demands on each other that don't affect us personally. We raise taxes that we ourselves don't pay. We pass environmental regulations that don't affect our businesses. We support novel educational policies while we send our own children to private school. So what? Do we demand that leftists form their own multinational conglomerates before protesting at WTC meetings? Do we require conservatives to date within their own sex before opposing same-sex marriages? Why have we singled out a pro-war stance as the one instance in which the mere possession of an opinion isn't good enough?

If you feel compelled to demand that pro-war advocates prove their sincerity, you'd better make the same demand of anti-war advocates, as well. Peace is too important to be left to the chickendoves.
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Post by miir »

I don't think I have ever heard that term before...
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Post by pyrella »

When peace goes awry, soldiers are often the first ones to pay the price. When America appeared irresolute in the early eighties, who suffered: the pampered professors in their cozy collegiate nooks? Or the Marines in their barracks in Lebanon? When Islamic extremists tested America's resolve, did they explode a bomb at Harvard -- or the USS Cole? When peacemongers guess wrong, soldiers die -- not peacemongers. So when will the anti-warriors put their own necks on the line for their beliefs?
This guy couldn't even acknowledge 9/11 ?

This guy rants and raves, but doesn't make too many points. And it makes no sense that this Chickenhawk is telling anti-war people to go to war. A Chickenhawk is a pro war who doesn't go right? 90% of his comments and affirmations can and should be applied to him, without any of his aformentioned liabilities and consequences.


to paraphrase: hurhur your dum, you should do what you dont want to do, and face reprecussions, and that will make you feel like your standing up for your beliefs, hur hur.


This guy has the blindness of Midnyte, the vocabulary of Voronwe, and the facts of Rekaar.
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Post by Nick »

:vv_yeahthat:
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Post by Brotha »

pyrella wrote:
When peace goes awry, soldiers are often the first ones to pay the price. When America appeared irresolute in the early eighties, who suffered: the pampered professors in their cozy collegiate nooks? Or the Marines in their barracks in Lebanon? When Islamic extremists tested America's resolve, did they explode a bomb at Harvard -- or the USS Cole? When peacemongers guess wrong, soldiers die -- not peacemongers. So when will the anti-warriors put their own necks on the line for their beliefs?
This guy couldn't even acknowledge 9/11 ?

This guy rants and raves, but doesn't make too many points. And it makes no sense that this Chickenhawk is telling anti-war people to go to war. A Chickenhawk is a pro war who doesn't go right? 90% of his comments and affirmations can and should be applied to him, without any of his aformentioned liabilities and consequences.


to paraphrase: hurhur your dum, you should do what you dont want to do, and face reprecussions, and that will make you feel like your standing up for your beliefs, hur hur.


This guy has the blindness of Midnyte, the vocabulary of Voronwe, and the facts of Rekaar.
Yeah that was a paragraph I disagreed with him on.

Your "paraphrase" is the exact idea he's attacking.

Towards the end:
To be clear: the entire notion of "Chicken______" is absurd.
It's kind of telling that it takes someone on the opposite end of the political spectrum applying the same standards to people on the left that many have been applying to people on the right (ie chickenhawks) to get you to see the absurdity of it.
Last edited by Brotha on February 15, 2005, 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sueven »

The problem is anti-war punditry from intellectuals who think that an IED is a contraceptive and couldn't tell the difference between bounding overwatch and watching Baywatch.
Be honest Brotha: Could you have answered these questions, before reading the article, without doing research?
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Post by Brotha »

Sueven wrote:
The problem is anti-war punditry from intellectuals who think that an IED is a contraceptive and couldn't tell the difference between bounding overwatch and watching Baywatch.
Be honest Brotha: Could you have answered these questions, before reading the article, without doing research?
I knew what an IED is, but still no clue what bounding overwatch is.
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Post by Aruman »

Brotha wrote:
Sueven wrote:
The problem is anti-war punditry from intellectuals who think that an IED is a contraceptive and couldn't tell the difference between bounding overwatch and watching Baywatch.
Be honest Brotha: Could you have answered these questions, before reading the article, without doing research?
I knew what an IED is, but still no clue what bounding overwatch is.
Well, I can help you with Bounding Overwatch...

It's basically where one force covers the advance of another force, but over a somewhat large distance, relative to the type of unit, and there is likelyhood of enemy contact.

3 Basics are Travelling, Travelling Overwatch, and Bounding Overwatch.

I looked up a link to show you:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 91/c03.htm
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Post by Zaelath »

"But shouldn't the burden of proof rest upon those who call for war, instead of peace? Don't the inherent dangers of war compel us to demand that its advocates walk the talk?" In brief: no and no. War is extraordinarily bad. But a bad peace can be worse. The graveyards of the world are filled with the bodies of those who died from a hateful "peace." Given the hideous acts of oppression and injustice that spring from the lack of war, why shouldn't we hold peaceniks to the higher standard of sincerity?
Fucking YEEHAW! Gimme this fucktard's address so I can pre-emptively declare war on his brainwashed ass, because I don't approve of the way he runs his household (I think I saw him hit a kid once) and kill the lot of them. So spake the shepard, so be it.

Typical that his entire impetus for writing this piece of drivel appears to be his mates being called chickenhawks, then goes right off calling all and sundry every cliched name he can come up with until you just want to yawn with boredom at his fallacious and belaboured point.
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Post by Brotha »

Thanks for the info Aruman!

I'll have to test my brother and see if he knows it...
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Post by nobody »

quiz:

what does

FUBAR
SNAFU
BOHICA

mean?

you can't answer Aruman.

i quit reading the article after i figured out i dont care. i don't care who wants to fight and who doesn't. it's about as stupid as saying if you don't support bush gtf out of the country.
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Post by Fash »

fubar - fucked up beyond all recognition...
snafu - 'situation normal, all fouled up' (wwii)
bohica - bend over, here it comes again!


QUIZ YOU: what does NSTK stand for?... from the vietnam era... or how about JANFU ??
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Post by Boogahz »

FUBAR = Fucked Up Beyond All Recognition
SNAFU = Situation Normal All Fucked Up
BOHICA = Bend Over Here It Comes Again
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Napalm Stuck To Kids
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JANFU = Joing Army-Navy Fuck Up
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Post by Aruman »

WETSU

See if any of you can get that one!
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We Eat This Shit Up

50 vv's to the first person to get AAAAAA.
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Post by Winnow »

PCMCIA - People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms
ISDN - It Still Does Nothing
APPLE - Arrogance Produces Profit-Losing Entity
SCSI - System Can't See It
DOS - Defective Operating System
BASIC - Bill's Attempt to Seize Industry Control
IBM - I Blame Microsoft
DEC - Do Expect Cuts
CD-ROM - Consumer Device, Rendered Obsolete in Months
OS/2 - Obsolete Soon, Too.
WWW - World Wide Wait
MACINTOSH - Most Applications Crash; If Not, The Operating System Hangs
PENTIUM - Produces Erroneous Numbers Through Incorrect Understanding of Mathematics
COBOL - Completely Obsolete Business Oriented Language
AMIGA - A Merely Insignificant Game Addiction
LISP - Lots of Infuriating & Silly Parenthesis
MIPS - Meaningless Indication of Processor Speed
WINDOWS - Will Install Needless Data On Whole System
GIRO - Garbage In Rubbish Out
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Post by Rekaar. »

pyrella wrote:
When peace goes awry, soldiers are often the first ones to pay the price. When America appeared irresolute in the early eighties, who suffered: the pampered professors in their cozy collegiate nooks? Or the Marines in their barracks in Lebanon? When Islamic extremists tested America's resolve, did they explode a bomb at Harvard -- or the USS Cole? When peacemongers guess wrong, soldiers die -- not peacemongers. So when will the anti-warriors put their own necks on the line for their beliefs?
This guy couldn't even acknowledge 9/11 ?

This guy rants and raves, but doesn't make too many points. And it makes no sense that this Chickenhawk is telling anti-war people to go to war. A Chickenhawk is a pro war who doesn't go right? 90% of his comments and affirmations can and should be applied to him, without any of his aformentioned liabilities and consequences.


to paraphrase: hurhur your dum, you should do what you dont want to do, and face reprecussions, and that will make you feel like your standing up for your beliefs, hur hur.


This guy has the blindness of Midnyte, the vocabulary of Voronwe, and the facts of Rekaar.
Thanks for throwing me into your own bitter rant. The irony.

Should also read the whole thing before labeling next time =p

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Post by Kylere »

My favs while I was serving were the acronyms for US ARMY and YMRA SU.

Uncle Sam Ain't Released Me Yet
Yes My Retarded Ass Signed Up
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Post by nobody »

no takers?

AAAAAA = the Association for the Abolition of Abused Abbreviations and Asinine Acronyms

http://www.fas.org/news/reference/lexicon/acronym.htm
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Post by Hoarmurath »

I can't believe you called me a leg in the "5 words" thread. That's just low.
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Post by nobody »

lol i had to b/c you have those other two pathces in your avatar. aruman would call you a leg too i'm sure.
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Post by Hoarmurath »

No way, "leg" implies non-Airborne infantry. I was certainly not in the Infantry, and I damn sure didn't walk anywhere. I either took a BlackHawk or a HMMWV. My idea of a "road march" was taking my rucksack full of Dr. Pepper and Chicken-in-a-Biscuit from my dorm to the deuce-and-a-half parked outside.
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Post by Kylere »

I planned on being a 5 jump chump so i could have the promo points from the airborne badge, then I got stuck in 3/325 ABCT :-(

I HATE JUMPING, I HATED JUMPING and I would have preferred being a leg, of course jump pay is not too shabby.
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Post by nobody »

jumping the door sucks! it is scary not b/c your 1000+ ft up but b/c the jackass in front of you can screw up and rip you arm or neck off with their ripcord. either that or you could get a bad jump out the door and either become a tow jumper (would rather fall straight to my death) or or get a cigarette roll like the girl who died at benning a few weeks ago. i love jumping the tail like we do in my unit and even more so, jumping blackhawk.

if you're not a leg and you're not airborne you are chairborne.
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Post by Hoarmurath »

nobody wrote:if you're not a leg and you're not airborne you are chairborne.
There you go. Calling me "chairborne" would not insult me at all. In fact, I rather like that name.

I was actually in an aviation unit (being an Apache crew chief sort of guaranteed that) so we always felt like we were more like the Air Force than Army...or at least we acted like it. I was "forced" to go to Air Assault school (I would have gone anyway, but they make everyone go ion the 101st), but never got the chance for Airborne because all the slots for the 101st were always filled by grunts, it was very rare for us non-jumper REMF types to get airborne slots.

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