Walmart says NO to fair treatment of employees.

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Walmart says NO to fair treatment of employees.

Post by Animalor »

The store attempted to unionize and 4 months after it happened, they decided to close down the store.

http://www.canada.com/montreal/montreal ... 0ca1cba40c
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Walmart has every right in the world to not want a unionized store. Tagging them with that "no to fair treatment" bullshit, is such utter crap man.
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Post by Canoe »

I'm extremely pro union (even tho I don't work in one), however, in Midnyte's oh so sensitive words above - there is truth.

WallMart has every right to not have unionized employees, just like every single other retailer out there.
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Post by Nick »

But yeah it's great that big employers can treat their employees like shit because it's their right!
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Post by Cartalas »

Teenybloke wrote:But yeah it's great that big employers can treat their employees like shit because it's their right!

Umm they pay them within the Govt. Guidelines, If they dont like it quit.
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Post by Zaelath »

Cartalas wrote:
Teenybloke wrote:But yeah it's great that big employers can treat their employees like shit because it's their right!

Umm they pay them within the Govt. Guidelines, If they dont like it quit.
This story takes place in Canada. It's Wal-Mart trying to avoid the law (apparently) not the workers.

The real error was the Canuks ever letting them into the country.
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Post by Cartalas »

Zaelath wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Teenybloke wrote:But yeah it's great that big employers can treat their employees like shit because it's their right!

Umm they pay them within the Govt. Guidelines, If they dont like it quit.
This story takes place in Canada. It's Wal-Mart trying to avoid the law (apparently) not the workers.

The real error was the Canuks ever letting them into the country.

I agree with you it is Canada's fault for letting them in, I hate Wall-Mart they kill towns. But these people knew what they were getting into when they filled out the application. Put your foot down dont shop there I dont.
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Post by Fash »

heh... unions are for fair treatment?... :roll: they were a long long time ago, but now they only serve to turn a workforce of individuals into a whiney mob of greedy sloths, indignant and ignorant to their employers.
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Post by Sylvos »

I am anti-union. When I worked for Bellsouth, I HAD to join the Union.
I do not need to pay people to whine and cry for me. I am perfectly capable of doing that myself. Unions are outdated and need to be done away with.
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Post by miir »

Unions are only interested in self preservation.
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Post by Deward »

Unions had a good purpose several decades ago. Now they are a corporation of their own and they are trying to make money. They don't seem to care that they are destroying the manufacturing industry in America and are doing a good job of wrecking other industries like the airlines.

I also hate Walmart and I stopped shopping there over two years ago. They certainly don't treat their employees all that well and they do kill small town businesses. Their reputation is starting to catch up with them though.
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Post by Lynks »

They also protect the weak, and yet, manage to prevent discrimination. I have mixed feelings on this subject.
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Post by Voronwë »

Walmart embodies everything i hate in a shopping experience.
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Post by Winnow »

For most hick towns, working at Walmart is probably the pinnacle of success. No complaining!

I'm anti union. I've seen them abused time and time again. And yes, I've seen all of the old coal mining union movies (ang Gung Ho!). You don't need to unionize to fix these situations though. You take a pair of pliers and a blow torch to one or two of the executives and soon after, work conditions and pay mysteriously improve.
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Post by Voronwë »

Is Walmart good for America?

Frontline to the rescue again.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/
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Post by Aslanna »

I've been anti-Wal-Mart for awhile now. They are evil.

I have no comment on unions other than I don't think they are all that needed these days.
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Post by Winnow »

Confess your last Walmart purchases and be free from guilt!

Date: Three weeks ago

Product: Pack of air filters for my home

Reason: I let my last filter go too long because I kept forgetting the size filter I needed. I finally remembered the size and was right by a Walmart and bought them. Forgive me consumer gods!
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Post by Lynks »

Date: Last week

Product: Blank DVD cases

Reason: It was the only place I could find them.


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Post by *~*stragi*~* »

Date: Two weeks ago

Product: 4 Six packs of Scmirnoff Twisted IV Watermelon (new!) and 1 Six pack Scmirnoff Twisted IV Black Cherry (also new!)
30 pack (cans) bud light

Reason: Only place that ever has any left in stock... and closest store to friends apartment.
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Post by Marbus »

I hate Wal-Mart even more than I hate unions. Had to deal with some unionized employees in another state and it was utter bullshit. They never did their fair share of work, made more money than they should of and thus hurt the complany but... BUT they had shitty benefits so actually they made less. Unions were good 70 years ago but have had their time, now all they do is close down towns like Wal-Mart does.

Why are mills, factories etc... hurting in the NE? Unions. What happens is some uneducated fork lift driver expcets to make more than his Harvard educated boss. She he diserves a good, decent living and wage but I know of fork lift drivers makeing 100K per year then the plant or mill can't make a profit because wages are too high and guess what? They go out of business, everyone looses their jobs and another country takes one more product away...

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Post by Mak »

I bought several frozen pizzas from there about a week ago. At most grocery stores the kind I buy (Totino's Party Pizza, in the red box) run about a $1.79- at Walmart they are $.97. Many other products I buy are discounted with a similar ratio.

Why would someone willingly choose to pay over 50% more for groceries if they don't have to? Would you pay more than a 50% mark-up on a car if you didn't have to?
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Post by Lohrno »

I understand not shopping at Wal Mart. I'm not so principled as to not shop there myself, but I understnad the reasoning behind it. Basically shopping at Wal Mart is equal to supporting overseas labor and products and the losing of American jobs.

I don't say that lightly.

Wal Mart has some very nasty practices in it's dealing with vendors. They will require their vendors to lower their prices each year, and if they don't they will find a chinese company that makes the same product to do so.

But personally that's not the main reason I don't usually shop at Wal Mart. The main reason is I like Costco more. :)
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Post by Chmee »

Voronwë wrote:Is Walmart good for America?

Frontline to the rescue again.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/walmart/
I didn't have time to read everything there, but the interview with Brink Lindsey is excellent.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... ndsey.html

I recommend reading the whole bit, but here are a couple of pertinent bits.
So Wal-Mart shoppers are better off?

Yes. Absolutely. Yes. There's 100 million people who go to Wal-Mart every week. That's a pretty big number. Those people go there because they think they can get a better deal there than anywhere else. One of the reasons they can get a better deal there than anywhere else is because of globalization and the ability of Wal-Mart to source low-priced, competitive products from places like China and elsewhere.
... One of the things that people do talk about is different models; that if you look at what some people refer to as the General Motors model, that you go back to the '40s, '50s and '60s, you look at the typical industrial jobs, with the wages and the benefits and the job security, you've got one model. And if you look at the Wal-Marts, or a little bit less, though, Costco, but Target and Kmart and so forth -- and Wal-Mart's emblematic here; it's not just Wal-Mart; we're using Wal-Mart as an important symbol, by the way, not suggesting it's absolutely unique -- that the Wal-Mart approach is very different. There's a lot of part-time work. There's a lot of labor turnover. There are low benefits, and there are low wages. ... Just looking at it from the worker side, have we moved, or are we in the process of moving, from one model, which has been predominant and fairly beneficial to millions or tens of millions of workers, to another model, which is less beneficial to large numbers of people?

We're moving to a different kind of American economy. There is no doubt that for the past quarter-century we have been in the midst of wrenching structural change -- structural change that, I would argue, on benefit, creates more opportunities than it eliminates. But for particular people in particular sectors or with particular job skills, it has meant downward mobility for them, and there's just no doubt that the creative destruction of market competition and capitalism creates winners and it creates losers.

And supporters of free markets and people who support market-friendly policies need to face up to that fact. There is a downside, and it goes far beyond international trade. If you look at jobs that have been eliminated because of foreign competition, they pale by comparison to the jobs that have been eliminated by automation and computerization. All kinds of factory jobs have been eliminated by robots, have been eliminated by computerization. All kinds of back-office, white-collar jobs have been eliminated in the same way.

Look at the steel industry, for example. Back in the early 1980s, it took 10 man-hours to produce one ton of steel. Now it takes about two man-hours to produce one ton of steel. There's a huge productivity gain, and yet our economy doesn't need any more steel than it used to. So if the demand is the same and the productivity is a lot higher, that means we need fewer steelworkers.

A great deal of that productivity increase has been driven by domestic competition -- in particular, the rise of the mini-mills that use recycled scrap to make steel in high-tech, not labor-intensive processes. So mini-mills have eliminated more steel jobs than imports have.

We hear about the unfair imports and how they are eliminating steel jobs. We don't tend to hear as much about the effect of pure, domestic technological innovation on jobs.


Why is that?

Because it's a lot easier to be demagogic when you can point to a foreign scapegoat and say, "See? All our problems would go away if we just went back to Fortress America." Whereas it's, I think, tougher to sell to people [the idea] that technological progress is bad for us. I think we understand that technological progress has costs, that it puts people out of work; it makes industries and jobs obsolete. But I think we have come to grips with the fact that it produces more opportunities than it eliminates.

Trade is just another form of technological innovation. It's a way of turning exports into imports. And so it's a way of increasing productivity, and at the same time, it eliminates some jobs. If you're against trade, you really, to be consistent, ought to be against technological innovation as well, because both are a threat to existing job patterns.


Speaking of threats, is China a threat to the American economy? Is it helping to deindustrialize the American economy?

No, it is not helping to deindustrialize the U.S. economy, because the U.S. economy isn't deindustrializing. From 1980 to 2002 -- so during the period of the rise of the Chinese economy -- U.S. manufacturing output has doubled. We're producing twice as much manufactured product today as we were back when China was just starting its economic reform.


But manufacturing as a share of GNP and manufacturing employment as a share of total employment, both of those have gone down.

They're both shrinking. And why? Is it because of the weakness of the U.S. manufacturing sector? No. It's because of the strength. Productivity in manufacturing is growing twice as fast as overall productivity. Over this 20-year period, manufacturing productivity has grown over 100 percent. Overall non-farm business productivity has grown about 50 percent. So productivity in manufacturing is growing faster than in the service sector, and yet demand for manufactured products isn't growing at the same speed.

As a result, manufactured goods are getting cheaper and cheaper relative to services, which means that the percentage of national income spent on manufactured business is declining. The percentage of manufacturing in GDP is declining. And also the percentage of manufacturing employees out of the total workforce is declining. That's not an indication of American economic weakness. It's an indication of American economic progress. ...

The exact same thing happened in agriculture over a longer time period. Back in the 1860s [and]1870s, half of our workforce was on the farm. Now it's under 2 percent, and yet we're producing more food than ever.


There are people who have argued -- and I think you've argued it, at least in some of the stuff that I've read -- that people were worried about the threat from Japan or Korea a decade ago, and then we recovered from that, and we're OK. I think one of the questions people ask now is, is China different because of the size of China, particularly the size of its labor market, its labor pool? ... Do you think China represents a different kind of trade challenge, if not a threat?

I think our experience with China is different from our experience and hysteria about Japan in the 1980s, and that's because the challenge is rather less than Japan represented. Japan's competitive challenge to the United States was in high-tech, high-profile industries and machine tools -- semiconductors, automobiles, steel.

China's inroads into the U.S. market are largely coming at the expense not of U.S. production, but of Mexican and Southeast Asian production. A lot of the jobs that China is displacing are jobs that left the United States a long time ago, and China is emerging to replace other low-wage countries doing labor-intensive operations.

Over the long, long haul, will China's economic development continue to the point that it reaches the level Japan was at in the 1980s? Maybe, but we're not there yet.
Now, is outsourcing good or bad for the American economy?

Outsourcing is, overall, good for the American economy, and that is to take nothing away from the fact that it can hurt particular workers who have their jobs outsourced. But there's all kinds of ways that workers can lose their jobs. They can lose their jobs because of a downturn in the economy, because of domestic competition, because of automation and computerization or because of globalization and offshoring.

What the Department of Labor has found in recent surveys is about 2 percent of mass layoffs are due to outsourcing. That means 97 percent are due to something else. Those workers who get pink slips hurt just as bad as the workers who get pink slips because of [offshoring].


... Is Wal-Mart good for America?

I think Wal-Mart is good for America. Wal-Mart is doing what America is all about, the American market economy is all about, which is producing things consumers want to buy. And Wal-Mart is offering consumers a wide range of goods at rock-bottom prices, and therefore, it is meeting the market test.

It is not good for its competitors. They have a tough time keeping up. As far as its workers are concerned, everybody that's working at Wal-Mart, none of them were drafted. All of them chose to work at Wal-Mart, presumably because the opportunity they had at Wal-Mart was better than any other opportunity they had. If Wal-Mart vanished off the face of the earth tomorrow, that means those people would have to go to the next best option, and they would be worse off relative to where they are today. So as far as consumers are concerned and workers are concerned, Wal-Mart's a big plus for America. …
All pretty much spot on. As I said, his whole interview is worth a read.
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Post by Siji »

The moment someone says that outsourcing is good for the American economy, they lose any and all credibility.

And yes, I'll pay 5-10% more to buy from anywhere but WalMart and support another company or business.

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Post by nobody »

i personally prefer target if for no other reason than the fact that i don't have to pass by shopping carts full of discount "shit", deal with stupid ass employee's that don't get paid enough to give a shit (despite the fact that there are a hundred of them just wandering around), and the fact that for some reason unbeknownst to me it is always fucking packed. i like to go into a store, get what i want, and get the fuck out. at wal-mart i get trapped in long lines and am constantly dodging people in narrow isles.

the last time i was at wal-mart my mother was in town and we had to develope some film and grab some snacks for a road trip to pick up my brother. as we went to pay we could not find any lines shorter than 6 or 7 people. this while dodging ignorant asshat douchebag's who don't pay fucking attention to where they are going. you know, kinda like dumbasses clogging up the freeway b/c they are too stupid to get the fuck out of the left lane. anyway, i degress...as we are looking for the shortest line my mother says to me "see, this is why i hate shopping at wal-mart. it's always crowded." at that moment a one of the hundreds of employees not doing shit, rolled by in his wheelchair and said "well everyone else seems to like it since it IS so crowded" and kept on rolling. fucking ass! i haven't shopped there since.

on the subject, last november here in sandy, utah, the people voted overwhelmingly in the city council against a proposed wal-mart only to have the council members overturn that decision. fucking assbag douchehat's!

so siji, i couldn't agree with you more. i am willing to pay more. in my case primarily for a more satisfying shopping experience.

whew! sorry for the rambling...

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Post by Cartalas »

Lohrno wrote:I understand not shopping at Wal Mart. I'm not so principled as to not shop there myself, but I understnad the reasoning behind it. Basically shopping at Wal Mart is equal to supporting overseas labor and products and the losing of American jobs.

I don't say that lightly.

Wal Mart has some very nasty practices in it's dealing with vendors. They will require their vendors to lower their prices each year, and if they don't they will find a chinese company that makes the same product to do so.

But personally that's not the main reason I don't usually shop at Wal Mart. The main reason is I like Costco more. :)

On the other hand they DO NOT!! charge the vendors shelf space.
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Post by Chmee »

Siji wrote:The moment someone says that outsourcing is good for the American economy, they lose any and all credibility.
Actually, in my opinion, its pretty much the opposite. Outsourcing is just another kind of trade and trade, overall, is beneficial for the economy.
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Post by Zaelath »

Chmee wrote:
Siji wrote:The moment someone says that outsourcing is good for the American economy, they lose any and all credibility.
Actually, in my opinion, its pretty much the opposite. Outsourcing is just another kind of trade and trade, overall, is beneficial for the economy.
That's a hideous over-simplification. But, economists love that kind of thing http://www.economist.com/surveys/displa ... _id=605144

In their wheat and bicycles example they conveniently omit demand, in outsourcing you conveniently assume reskilling your workforce has a zero cost and takes no time.

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Post by Chidoro »

Siji wrote:The moment someone says that outsourcing is good for the American economy, they lose any and all credibility.

And yes, I'll pay 5-10% more to buy from anywhere but WalMart and support another company or business.
I agree 100%. There's no way in hell Chmee could convince me otherwise, regardless of how many economists he quotes. If I had the time, I'm sure there are rebuttals to all of that nonsense.

I never go to wal-mart. There's nothing there that I can't get anywhere else. It screws over choice. There's product line A, product line B, and the wal-mart brand. So you'll get coke, pepsi, and walmart, while companies like Cadbury get dicked.
I also can't fucking stand that they don't disclose any of their product sales.
They just opened the first "super" wal-mart near me. Yeah, I'm going to purchase my groceries in that shithole when there's a Wegmans nearby.
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Post by Winnow »

Edit: wrong thread!
Last edited by Winnow on February 11, 2005, 1:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Voronwë »

if i have to pay $10 more a week so that the grocery store i go to can afford to give 40 hr work week schedules to their employees so they can be benefits elegible then that tis fine with me.

By WalMart as a practice trying to minimize the number of benefits eligble employees they have, they place an increased burden on the taxpayer.

Those persons then get a larger percentage of their healthcare paid through Medicaid (state and federal tax dollars). Therefore, increasing the tax burden on the local population. At least that has been alledged, and i can't source that beyond saying i'm fairly sure a Univ of Southern California economist said it in a call in interview to a liberal talk radio station.
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Post by Aslanna »

I say we start outsourcing the economists jobs. I'm sure there are people overseas that can do it for less.
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Post by Deward »

Another point not mentioned is that all of the money that Walmart is making leaves the community. This works to slowly drain the community of cash. Local businesses keep their money in the area and help the community.
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Post by a_guide »

nobody wrote:on the subject, last november here in sandy, utah, the people voted overwhelmingly in the city council against a proposed wal-mart only to have the council members overturn that decision. fucking assbag douchehat's!
You live in Sandy!?! S. Jordan here... There are 10 Wal-Marts within a 10 mile radius of my house. It's disgusting.
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Post by nobody »

i live near sandy, it's all one big city from provo to ogden so i have a hard time differentiating between the cities. i can tell the difference between counties just by where i can buy pron and beer.
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Post by a_guide »

I only buy my booze at the Sandy State Liquor Store! Best selection and cool staff :D The only places I've seen selling porn was Blue Boutique and looked nasty :(
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Post by Cartalas »

Deward wrote:Another point not mentioned is that all of the money that Walmart is making leaves the community. This works to slowly drain the community of cash. Local businesses keep their money in the area and help the community.
So does

Target,K-mart,Sears,JC Pennys, Best Buy, Circut City, Comp USA,
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Post by Chmee »

Zaelath wrote:
That's a hideous over-simplification. But, economists love that kind of thing http://www.economist.com/surveys/displa ... _id=605144
Yeah, economists do, imagine that.
In their wheat and bicycles example they conveniently omit demand
Their example worked fine to illustrate what it was supposed to, the production benefits of comparative advantage.
in outsourcing you conveniently assume reskilling your workforce has a zero cost and takes no time.
I have never seen anyone assume that. Anyone that I have seen that speaks seriously on the matter aknowledges that there costs involved in retraining. But the benefits to the economy as a whole are greater the costs.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

– Benjamin Franklin
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Post by Chmee »

Deward wrote:Another point not mentioned is that all of the money that Walmart is making leaves the community. This works to slowly drain the community of cash. Local businesses keep their money in the area and help the community.
If you buy any product that isn't actually produced locally in your community you are effectively sending money away from your community (even most things produced locally will depend to some degree on external inputs). Somehow communities manage not to be drained of all their cash. It could be because other communities are sending them money for the things that they do make.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

– Benjamin Franklin
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Post by Kylere »

People that shop at Walmart are complete and total fucking scumbags.

Walmart is ran by complete and total fucking scumbags.
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Post by nobody »

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2005 ... 83-cp.html
Granby Wal-Mart receives bomb threat, third store in two days

Third store in two days




GRANBY, Que. (CP) - A Wal-Mart store in this city about 80 kilometres east of Montreal was evacuated Saturday after police received a noon-hour bomb threat.

Granby police spokesman Lieut. Louis Gregoire said no suspicious objects were found, but the store remained closed as police continued to check the area following the anonymous 9-1-1 call that came in around 12:30 p.m.

It's the third store to receive such a threat in two days. Two stores in Gatineau near Ottawa received threats Friday that turned out to be hoaxes.

The threats come a few days after the U.S. retail giant announced plans to close a unionized Quebec store in Saguenay, Que., where employees are trying to negotiate a first contract.
those militant canadians at it again.
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Post by Forthe »

-Like chmee says trade is good for "the economy" and "the economy" has grown tremendously since the 70s.
-However, real wages haven't increased much since the 70s. Most of our increases in living standards come from the 2 worker vs 1 worker family transition.
-Good for "the economy" != good for the country\people in all cases but the way they state it implies this is so. Economic growth over the last 3x years has been mainly good for the rich, with some modest benefits (in comparison) for the middle-upper class able to invest.
-For the most part these days you can equate good for "the ecomony" with good for the rich.
-Walmart for me embodies all the is wrong with corporations and the lack of morality we have in business these days. I could condone such behavior if a company is struggling to make profits, but in a highly profitable company such behaviour is repulsive.
-Fair trade is dead, the competetive advantage of exploitating the weak makes morality a disadvantage. As long as consumers support such immorality with their $'s this will remain the case.
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

Forthe wrote:--Walmart for me embodies all the is wrong with corporations and the lack of morality we have in business these days.
Thanks to the media, Democrats, liberals, etc. , morality has played less and less a part in our society over the last 20 years. Morality has been viewed as a bad word for a long time now.
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Post by Kelshara »

Thanks to the media, Democrats, liberals, etc. , morality has played less and less a part in our society over the last 20 years. Morality has been viewed as a bad word for a long time now.
You're so full of shit unless you equal morality with nazi-like views. Which really wouldn't surprise me coming from you.
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Post by Thess »

Walmart is an evil corporation... but.. they have everything and I am the suck at boycotting! Especially if I need something at 2 in the morning :(
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Post by Chmee »

Forthe wrote:-Like chmee says trade is good for "the economy" and "the economy" has grown tremendously since the 70s.
-However, real wages haven't increased much since the 70s. Most of our increases in living standards come from the 2 worker vs 1 worker family transition.
-Good for "the economy" != good for the country\people in all cases but the way they state it implies this is so. Economic growth over the last 3x years has been mainly good for the rich, with some modest benefits (in comparison) for the middle-upper class able to invest.
-For the most part these days you can equate good for "the ecomony" with good for the rich.
-Walmart for me embodies all the is wrong with corporations and the lack of morality we have in business these days. I could condone such behavior if a company is struggling to make profits, but in a highly profitable company such behaviour is repulsive.
-Fair trade is dead, the competetive advantage of exploitating the weak makes morality a disadvantage. As long as consumers support such immorality with their $'s this will remain the case.
The claim things haven't gotten any better for the average person since the 70s has serious problems with it, for some examples see ...

http://reason.com/9808/fe.cox.shtml

http://reason.com/9702/ed.vp.shtml

We are far better off than we were in the 70s.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

– Benjamin Franklin
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Post by Sueven »

An increase in product consumption does not necessarily equate to "things getting better for the average american."
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Post by nobody »

we're still not living in mud hut's in the desert being forced to grow beards and ride camels to work. i think we've got it pretty damn good and the rest of the world would agree with me.
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Post by Chmee »

Sueven wrote:An increase in product consumption does not necessarily equate to "things getting better for the average american."
Its a fairly large hunk of it. But yeah, it isn't everything. In fact that was one of the points in one of the articles that I linked. That it is not as much anymore about delivering more in quantity terms, but that increasingly offering more quality and greater choice are occurring. Things that are difficult to track with the CPI, but no less real in their impact on overall economic well being.
No nation was ever ruined by trade.

– Benjamin Franklin
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Post by Nick »

Hypocrite = Midnyte
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