What's your favorite absurdity on this board?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 6, 2005, 3:01 pm

I think if I refer you to the post about this whole situation on the purple finger thread - http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=13272 to see where my anger stems.

The fact is that that you choose to ignore massively important aspects because of an assumption that they don't matter, which is exactly why you got bombed on 9/11. The points raised in this thread by me and others regarding torture etc, you actually defend.

If you cannot understand that this is not the way to cut out terrorism you can be sure that all you are going to get is 'hater' (as you put it) bullshit by people that will rightfully call you on what YOU ignore.

By the way, it is (as you may imagine) important to keep perspectives clear about ethical treatment of people, especially when your whole point is supposedly to create Peace and Democracy and Freedom. If you cannot see even the most blatant points of issue then you sirs lack the integrity you are claiming to have/want to spread.

Whether you assume me to be a 'hysterical leftie' (lynks) at the end of the day you will probably see that all I want is the same as you, a peaceful and decent world to live in.

The way I see it, creating one by force goes against one of the fundamental aspects of your whole argument (freedom). Sure you will bandy insults and then run away calling me a 'hater' but that is simply because you misunderstand how you are percieved by the world, and you cannot accept the reality of the situation.

This is not my problem. It is yours. All I have ever argued for here is essentially for a less unilateral and narrow minded perception emanating from the USA, simply because that will be the ONLY way to get rid of your favourite thing these days, 'Terror'.

You disagree? If you think Terrorism simply arose against the USA solely because of jealousy or random 'hater' incidents you sirs frankly have not been keeping up to date on your history.

Until you stop glossing over the myriad flaws in your own personal knowledge you have little reason to assume you know what the hell you are talking about, and/or whether you are contributing or hindering this war on terror, not many people see as much hope in Iraq as you people do.

Does this not worry you, or are they just 'haters'. You must understand they want peace in Iraq, but what I and others here have seen has YET TO CONVINCE US you are right about the frankly bloody and smug way you go about it, and if you start employing a global strategy for peace you should sure as fuck try and convince the globe it is a good idea.

Or, again, do you disagree?

At the end of the day it is hard not to look at America without seeing the sneer in its smile, without seeing the underlying trigger happy pyschotic murderous side.
Maybe you aren't responsible for it directly, but you sure as hell are more of a contributor than many others, especially when you ignore this aspect that EVERYONE sees, and you should not be proud.

But that is the message you are sending, whether by intent or not. When you see images of Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo, Or Fallujah, that you LIKE this, even if you don't, you need to make fucking sure we get that message, which we most certainly don't, or this whole thing breaks down man.

The world takes this much more seriously than you want it too, and you should start accepting that this is not going away, because centures of basic learning are being lost in favour of a hysterical rushed botched corrupt insensitive operation trying to hide it's bitter revenge and lack of understanding under the horrifying inaccurate title of 'Freedom'.

Although I accept that the revenge thing is probably second behind the freedom these days but it is there, and you may get a little thrill seeing a dead Iraqi (I know some of you do), but Europe and especially the people you do it too (Arabs, muslims) find it beyond acceptable, which is why insurgents exist, which is why there is tension and hatred towards America.

That was not there in days after 9/11, well not to anywhere near the same degree, when we were all 100% behind you, but YOU let us down, you showed you had not the ability to take care of this, so we go along with you, simply because if we don't you will have a massive hissy fit and really do something dangerous.

No one puts it past this Administration to make serious misjudgements when it comes to appropriate response and/or diplomacy.

You assume because I see images of torture in Abu Ghraib I am a hater?
Do you still hold that opinion now that it is held up for others to see in it's most blatant form?

Wow, you have a fucked up perception and I am glad I do not share it.

I mean how can you not even see these elements I bring up?

In relation to your US army effectiveness, frankly from what I have seen those boys could do with a little more people training, I do not doubt that mechanically you have a far superior army, but you need to ask yourself, when was war a good thing to actively promote? Whether your good at it or not. Get it?

This is not about optimism or pessamism, it is about looking at what is happening, from a full perspective, not just what the US patriotic news shows you.

Akaran, the way your country is going I would be careful about your nazi connotations. It makes you look like an ass.

Oh, and finally, Lynks, I could give a flying fuck what your dead mind thinks. I have something to say other than useless one liners that require the intellect of a fucking pea to create, which is more than can be said for you.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 6, 2005, 3:35 pm

You don't count very well. Besides, writing 5000 word essays doesn't mean what you have to say is more important, it just means you can't express yourself in an efficient way.

You do make good points once in a while, but the way you go about it is dead wrong.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » February 6, 2005, 3:37 pm

i apologize teeny but i really had a hard time understanding what the hell you were trying to say in that post. i understood the tone of it but could not dig through the vagities enough to grasp any specific points you were trying to make.

please answer these questions for me in short answer format:

1. how should the US or the world have dealt with Iraq?

2. how should we be dealing with iraq now?

3. why do the terrorists hate us?

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » February 6, 2005, 3:37 pm

I'll post a longer reply later Teeny, that's a big chunk to do.

Here is a little though:

I can understand some of what you are saying, but I still believe that the media is biased. Countries against what the United States does will most likely run a majority of stories showing the negative sides of what the US does. I'm sure that influences their populations just as much as our ' US patriotic news...'.

I have been around the world, and to many countries. I seriously didn't see all this hate that people are professing.

No, I don't condone anything illegal that happens/ed at Abu Gharaib or Guantanamo. However, I think that things need to be put into perspective.

If people do something illegal during the course of interrogations, throw their asses in jail or worse, depending on the severity. My gripe is that people automatically assume that what happened at Abu Gharaib is an everyday occurrence in the United States.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 6, 2005, 3:37 pm

Edited as I posted before I saw Nobody and Arumans post.

Lynks, what is your fucking point you silly bastard, get a grip maybe?

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 6, 2005, 3:43 pm

...I have something to say other than useless one liners that require the intellect of a fucking pea to create...

Way to contribute

Way to prove my absurdity!

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 6, 2005, 4:11 pm

Way to contribute Lynks.

Nobody asked:

1. how should the US or the world have dealt with Iraq?

I think it should have allowed the weapons inspectors to have used diplomacy to the point where it could not have gone further (which I don't think many would agree was where we are all at at the time).

I think the US should have waited for a resolution supported by everyone, they could have easily done this if they had not been so hysterically zealous in their desire to see the war start.

If you check Iraq was on the agenda for many many reasons, some noble, some not so noble (important*), the USA knew it would not get agreement because it knew the Europeans were not buying their lies (WMD - we all knew even then, while it was going on) so it acted along with Britain and Spain in a deeply devisive plan that as we all know was now founded on lies. Of course you do not expect us to assume there was no 'sexing up' of the facts?

Iraq makes no sense given that it was not a massive breeding ground for terrorism, as say Iran or Syria, it was a different story and we were ALL led under false pretenses. No?

2. how should we be dealing with iraq now?

Well it depends on why you are there, you claim independance and democracy for the Iraqi's, therefore a quick exit frankly is the only real option, otherwise it is just an occupation, which is not what you say you want.
Therefore MORE money and QUICKER structuring is needed, literally every day brings more hatred from certain corners (they corners you are specifically trying to get rid of), not less as Bush may lead you to believe.

But we know the US will be in Iraq now for a loooooong time. So given that your real intentions are to keep a choke hold (for your own security!) and not really for democracy I say you do exactly what you are doing, but you accept that along with that comes hostility for the reasons in my above post.

3. why do the terrorists hate us?

Again, my above post states why. The fact that the US historically is not as clean cut and apple pie as you are taught in school or on tv, in fact, like any superpower, it is a ruthless powerful machine with little regard or respect for what lies outside it's borders.

You have an equally fanatical wing of religious nuts in your country as there are in the East, therefore fanatics on both sides are waging a holy war.

Keep abreast of Amnesty International and other organisations human rights records, a lot of the problem stem from a feeling of oppression in the Arab world by the US, which if looked upon closely, is hard to ignore, nigh on impossible in fact.

The Russia Afghan war was also a big motivator. As is the current war and also Afghanistan (which is not a civilized democracy as you are mislead to believe, in reality it is a country of nomads and warring factions.

Aruman I think if you watch the news over here you would be surprised, the majority of the news programs tow the party line (ie support Bush) without much real questioning, so I don't agree with your perception of a foreign liberal media bias (not here anyway, can't speak for elsewhere) because it is in fact biased in US favour.

The bitter nicknaming of the 'intellectual elite' as 'liberal' or whatever else is the problem here, it is a mixture of jealousy and fear of what you don't understand (common in humans). I don't have all the answers but I can smell bullshit when it's thrown in my face. Therefore I read widely and discuss with as many people as I can and try and build a rounded view so I can try and help this shitfest all developed countries are guilty of creating.

See the way I said all? Of course for months you would happily assume it was just the US I had an irrational hatred for?

And while by no means is it solely the US who is at fault for human rights, I don't see many French or Germans here defending torture or seemingly ignoring it's relevance so I don't need to rant at their lack of grace or decency or respect for basic human interaction.

I just cannot accept the lack of understanding from the US on their overtly aggressive attitude, not just to these faceless 'terrorists' but to everyone on the planet who doesn't agree with GODS (i.e the USA) word.

That is unreasonable and primitive and it has to stop otherwise the 'haters' (which is a retarded term used by stupid people who cannot articulate the problems) will not go away.

However it is cool not just being called a 'liberal' and firing back 'necon' retard.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » February 6, 2005, 4:15 pm

My favorite absurdity on this board is the way in which people post meaningless run-on sentences that have nothing to do with anything purely for the purpose of pharming vv points like i'm doing right now.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 6, 2005, 4:56 pm

I think the US should have waited for a resolution supported by everyone, they could have easily done this if they had not been so hysterically zealous in their desire to see the war start.

Teeny: Do you think that, had the United States spent more time and effort on diplomacy, they would have successfuly rallied the United Nations and the world community behind the Iraq war?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 6, 2005, 6:01 pm

Yeah

Assuming the diplomacy was filled with relevant reasons for it in the first place.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 6, 2005, 6:08 pm

Here's what I don't understand in that case.

If you feel that the world community would have eventually agreed to go to war in Iraq, what specifically was wrong with us going to war in Iraq?

Basically, if the world community would have agreed to the war, then we can assume that the world community would have (at this point) felt that the war was morally right.

What is it about the passage of time that makes an action morally wrong at one point, but morally right a few months later?

I don't disagree with you that America does plenty of underhanded shit. I further agree with you that the war effort has been bungled and mismanaged. But, based on what you say, I find it very difficult to agree with you that the war was morally wrong in and of itself.

How do you resolve this difficulty?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 6, 2005, 6:26 pm

I am not Europe, I have my own views, these do not simply mirror what Europe or the world thinks. You simply asked if the world would have been more behind it. Not me.

Do you mean the people of the world or the world governments? They are somewhat independant of each other (example: Tony Blair did not have support for Iraq but signed up anyway). I would imagine the governments, for the sake of continuing friendship and a fear of terror would go to war quicker than many of the people would (remember, most of the world has not been targeted)

Also, the fact is all diplomacy would (in theory) at some point totally die which was not the case at the point when the US was pushing for war. This would leave you with little other option, assuming you really did think Saddam had WMD.

The European people might well still feel it to be bullshit, or maybe they would go along with it. I remember around the time of the start of the Iraq2 there was a LOT of opposition to it, but we all know how little importance that has if you have no actual power.

Whether or not it was immoral is less relevant than the fact that Iraq had fuck all to do with the thing that set you all off in the first place, those are the people you are after. At least do that first and then begin your grand solution.

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » February 6, 2005, 6:49 pm

nobody wrote: 1. how should the US or the world have dealt with Iraq?

2. how should we be dealing with iraq now?

3. why do the terrorists hate us?

1. Iraq was never a real problem, as obviously they had no weapons as they had been accused. They were not a threat to any other nation, as it is obvious by the pitiful defenses they showed during the actual "war". Don't tell me that it was a good decision in the long run either, since the country was far from creating any type of nuclear program and the sanctions that had been imposed were working and preventing them from ever getting any tools for such weapons.

2. I think its working better certainly but remember that we are still needlessly losing American and Iraqi lives over there, because of a giant mistake. Unfortunately we cannot simply leave, or the country would be in shambles and in an extremely vulernable state.

3. The terrorists hate us for simple reasons. We killed their families, destroyed their economies, and put them into a state of near constant warfare for 20+ years. Suppose Russia came into the US, dropped bombs killed your wife and two young children, leaving you and your eldest son. I'm sure you wouldn't really like Russia much, now that your family is dead and your house destroyed, and essentially your life is ruined. You might react violently against this foreign assault. This might include violence. You would call yourself "freedom fighters" while Russia would label you as "terrorists". Just an example, some food for thought.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » February 7, 2005, 12:51 am

I was mostly curious about your opinion specifically. If we had waited a few months and had a war with the support of most European governments and the United Nations, what would you think about that war?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » February 7, 2005, 1:10 am

Sueven wrote:I was mostly curious about your opinion specifically. If we had waited a few months and had a war with the support of most European governments and the United Nations, what would you think about that war?

The UN charter doesn't allow for invasion to change a government...

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » February 7, 2005, 2:36 am

With time it would have been obvious that Iraq was indeed not a threat. We just invaded on a whim. The UN would have at least required real evidence, not forged or just plain nonexistant evidence.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » February 7, 2005, 2:44 am

Rivera Bladestrike wrote:With time it would have been obvious that Iraq was indeed not a threat. We just invaded on a whim. The UN would have at least required real evidence, not forged or just plain nonexistant evidence.

we couldn't get that evidence b/c saddam would not allow inspectors to do their job. and with time you say!? ten years is not enough time!?

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » February 7, 2005, 2:48 am

Time for more frabricated evidence to be created with crayons by Bush and Colin Powell.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » February 7, 2005, 3:37 am

where do you get off saying it was fabricated? you would love it to have been i know, but we shared that intelligence and though it turned out to be incorrect, the US rightfully believed iraq may have had wmd's. saddam stated he wanted everyone to believe he could have had something b/c it was the only way he could still appear to project power in the region since he still feared iran. and why does everyone ignore the mass graves of 300,000+ in iraq!?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » February 7, 2005, 4:28 am

nobody wrote:where do you get off saying it was fabricated? you would love it to have been i know, but we shared that intelligence and though it turned out to be incorrect...

It's not unreasonable to think that the evidence what little there was was forged. I mean who profits the most from the war right now?

Tinkin Tankem · Post by **Tinkin Tankem** » February 7, 2005, 5:22 am

Question: What if we did find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, or something along the lines of nuclear experimentation? Where would the uranium have had come from? It wouldn't have been created in Iraq. There are only around 10 countries that could create weapon grade uranium. What if we did find wmd's or something close to it and ... dare I say it ... it came from our country or one of our supporting allies! Now would you broadcast this or would you keep it quiet? Secondly why didn't we just plant something there, that would be our underhanded trickery wouldn't it?

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » February 7, 2005, 2:26 pm

Good questions but with all the criticism and open animoity towards these countries that supposedly supported their WMD programs why not air the evidence? And furthermore if Saddam did have teh WMD I don't think that he'd rather hide them to blemish the good reputation of the US than simply use them to defend his country, which would have the side benefit of making the people around him a little less likely to try anything.

Can you think of any logical reason that Saddam wouldn't use WMD if he had them? It's not like he didn't before...

miir · Post by **miir** » February 7, 2005, 2:32 pm

What if we did find wmd's or something close to it and ... dare I say it ... it came from our country or one of our supporting allies!

I guess that's why Bush was so sure that Saddam had WMDs...

The US had given Saddam huge stockpiles of bio/chem weapons back in the 80s, I guess Bush figured they would still be sitting around.. in a shed... or a farmhouse... or a secret mobile weapons lab.. or in a baby milk factory.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 7, 2005, 4:03 pm

Teenybloke wrote:I think if I refer you to the post about this whole situation on the purple finger thread - http://www.veeshanvault.org/forums/view ... hp?t=13272 to see where my anger stems.

The fact is that that you choose to ignore massively important aspects because of an assumption that they don't matter, which is exactly why you got bombed on 9/11. The points raised in this thread by me and others regarding torture etc, you actually defend.

If you cannot understand that this is not the way to cut out terrorism you can be sure that all you are going to get is 'hater' (as you put it) bullshit by people that will rightfully call you on what YOU ignore.

By the way, it is (as you may imagine) important to keep perspectives clear about ethical treatment of people, especially when your whole point is supposedly to create Peace and Democracy and Freedom. If you cannot see even the most blatant points of issue then you sirs lack the integrity you are claiming to have/want to spread.

Whether you assume me to be a 'hysterical leftie' (lynks) at the end of the day you will probably see that all I want is the same as you, a peaceful and decent world to live in.

The way I see it, creating one by force goes against one of the fundamental aspects of your whole argument (freedom). Sure you will bandy insults and then run away calling me a 'hater' but that is simply because you misunderstand how you are percieved by the world, and you cannot accept the reality of the situation.

This is not my problem. It is yours. All I have ever argued for here is essentially for a less unilateral and narrow minded perception emanating from the USA, simply because that will be the ONLY way to get rid of your favourite thing these days, 'Terror'.

You disagree? If you think Terrorism simply arose against the USA solely because of jealousy or random 'hater' incidents you sirs frankly have not been keeping up to date on your history.

Until you stop glossing over the myriad flaws in your own personal knowledge you have little reason to assume you know what the hell you are talking about, and/or whether you are contributing or hindering this war on terror, not many people see as much hope in Iraq as you people do.

Does this not worry you, or are they just 'haters'. You must understand they want peace in Iraq, but what I and others here have seen has YET TO CONVINCE US you are right about the frankly bloody and smug way you go about it, and if you start employing a global strategy for peace you should sure as fuck try and convince the globe it is a good idea.

Or, again, do you disagree?

At the end of the day it is hard not to look at America without seeing the sneer in its smile, without seeing the underlying trigger happy pyschotic murderous side.
Maybe you aren't responsible for it directly, but you sure as hell are more of a contributor than many others, especially when you ignore this aspect that EVERYONE sees, and you should not be proud.

But that is the message you are sending, whether by intent or not. When you see images of Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo, Or Fallujah, that you LIKE this, even if you don't, you need to make fucking sure we get that message, which we most certainly don't, or this whole thing breaks down man.

The world takes this much more seriously than you want it too, and you should start accepting that this is not going away, because centures of basic learning are being lost in favour of a hysterical rushed botched corrupt insensitive operation trying to hide it's bitter revenge and lack of understanding under the horrifying inaccurate title of 'Freedom'.

Although I accept that the revenge thing is probably second behind the freedom these days but it is there, and you may get a little thrill seeing a dead Iraqi (I know some of you do), but Europe and especially the people you do it too (Arabs, muslims) find it beyond acceptable, which is why insurgents exist, which is why there is tension and hatred towards America.

That was not there in days after 9/11, well not to anywhere near the same degree, when we were all 100% behind you, but YOU let us down, you showed you had not the ability to take care of this, so we go along with you, simply because if we don't you will have a massive hissy fit and really do something dangerous.

No one puts it past this Administration to make serious misjudgements when it comes to appropriate response and/or diplomacy.

You assume because I see images of torture in Abu Ghraib I am a hater?
Do you still hold that opinion now that it is held up for others to see in it's most blatant form?

Wow, you have a fucked up perception and I am glad I do not share it.

I mean how can you not even see these elements I bring up?

In relation to your US army effectiveness, frankly from what I have seen those boys could do with a little more people training, I do not doubt that mechanically you have a far superior army, but you need to ask yourself, when was war a good thing to actively promote? Whether your good at it or not. Get it?

This is not about optimism or pessamism, it is about looking at what is happening, from a full perspective, not just what the US patriotic news shows you.

Akaran, the way your country is going I would be careful about your nazi connotations. It makes you look like an ass.

Oh, and finally, Lynks, I could give a flying fuck what your dead mind thinks. I have something to say other than useless one liners that require the intellect of a fucking pea to create, which is more than can be said for you.

Thank you so much for posting this Teeny!!! Now I have something you have posted that I can use Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!!

I printed it and wiped my ass!

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » February 7, 2005, 4:23 pm

Cartalas wrote: Thank you so much for posting this Teeny!!! Now I have something you have posted that I can use Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!!

I printed it and wiped my ass!

Congratulations for getting that far in your potty training. Nice to see your making progress.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 7, 2005, 4:23 pm

OMG CART LOLZ!1 SURELEY YUO R TEH WIN1111

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 7, 2005, 4:27 pm

Hesten wrote:
Cartalas wrote: Thank you so much for posting this Teeny!!! Now I have something you have posted that I can use Thank you Thank you Thank you!!!!

I printed it and wiped my ass!

Congratulations for getting that far in your potty training. Nice to see your making progress.

It is not as nice as your tounge but it will do

Forthe · Post by **Forthe** » February 8, 2005, 7:20 am

Sueven wrote:I was mostly curious about your opinion specifically. If we had waited a few months and had a war with the support of most European governments and the United Nations, what would you think about that war?

That support you mention would only have come from solid proof of WMD, most likely from the weapon inspections I would think. And as I said from the very beginning, I would have supported the war with such proof. Hell even if you had let the inspections continue and they were inconclusive. At least then you could rationalize it by saying they tried everything before invading.

But only a retard still believes this had anything to do with WMD (or freedom\liberty roflmao).

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » February 8, 2005, 8:21 am

http://www.comedycentral.com/mp/play.jh ... 10019.html

nuff said.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 8, 2005, 8:31 am

Cartalas, It's spelled tongue you stupid fuckwit.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 8, 2005, 10:11 am

Teenybloke wrote:Cartalas, It's spelled tongue you stupid fuckwit.

ahhh did we hurt the little leprechauns feelings?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » February 8, 2005, 10:48 am

Umm...no but thx ok~!

Learn to spell, at least with a modicum of effort, otherwise your posts are not even funny in a tragic way anymore, they are just tragic.

You can do it!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » February 8, 2005, 11:06 am

Teenybloke wrote:Umm...no but thx ok~!

Learn to spell, at least with a modicum of effort, otherwise your posts are not even funny in a tragic way anymore, they are just tragic.

You can do it!

I did didn't I? Hurt your feelings that is? Im sorry I should be more sensitive to little men.

Aabidano · Post by **Aabidano** » February 8, 2005, 11:10 am

Tinkin Tankem wrote:What if we did find wmd's or something close to it and ... dare I say it ... it came from our country or one of our supporting allies!

You've likely hit the nail on the head there, I'd guess they've already recovered them and not announced it due the point of origin. Who were Iraqs two largest creditors before the latest war?

The reasons given for the war don't add up, and while oil sounds good I don't think that's it either.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » February 8, 2005, 1:20 pm

Teenybloke wrote: At the end of the day it is hard not to look at America without seeing the sneer in its smile, without seeing the underlying trigger happy pyschotic murderous side.
Maybe you aren't responsible for it directly, but you sure as hell are more of a contributor than many others, especially when you ignore this aspect that EVERYONE sees, and you should not be proud.

I agree that the USA is in need of a public/foreign relations overhaul. However, living in North America I do not see this hidden sneer, or a trigger happy country. Your perception of America would likely be far different had you grown up there or even in Canada.

For example having not visited the Emerald Isle I am prone to thinking that it is still a very dangerous place to go, that being a protestant I would be killed on site by any Catholic who I came across. (In all liklihood this perception is wrong)
I think the jokes about the Irish being abnormally prone to fits of temper and alcohol abuse jade peoples perceptions as well. The truth is probably that they are no more likely to lash out in anger or drink to excess than anyone else.

Teenybloke wrote:The world takes this much more seriously than you want it too, and you should start accepting that this is not going away, because centures of basic learning are being lost in favour of a hysterical rushed botched corrupt insensitive operation trying to hide it's bitter revenge and lack of understanding under the horrifying inaccurate title of 'Freedom'.

War is war, I think that with all the cameras, inbedded journalists and biased reporting we are being schooled in the power of the media. As a public display the wrongs committed during this war are definately wrong. In terms of warfare and counterterrorism I cannot say that had these things been done secretly that they would be wrong.

Teenybloke wrote:Although I accept that the revenge thing is probably second behind the freedom these days but it is there, and you may get a little thrill seeing a dead Iraqi (I know some of you do), but Europe and especially the people you do it too (Arabs, muslims) find it beyond acceptable, which is why insurgents exist, which is why there is tension and hatred towards America.

I suppose in a utopian sense I would submit that had the arabs/muslims/terrorists simply laid down their arms, given democracy a chance, the resulting freedoms and sense of responsibility for your government, your religion etc would be embraced much like a drink of water for a person dying of thirst. I was struck by a thought on a recent holiday to the Dominican, we toured the island and saw both the rich enclaves and the poorest ghettos. Funny thing is the kids in both neighbourhoods were happy smiling and playing regardless of the economics. The thought was that these children in the ghetto were so happy because they didn't know what it was like to have had and then lost.

I think the Iraqi people will embrace democracy, and be forever changed by ideology of government responsible to the people.
Doing this at the end of a gun is of course wrong but through my rose coloured glasses this was a bi-product of this war and a PR spin for the USA once the WMD were not found.

Teenybloke wrote:Oh, and finally, Lynks, I could give a flying fuck what your dead mind thinks. I have something to say other than useless one liners that require the intellect of a fucking pea to create, which is more than can be said for you.

Left this one in cause it is great.

Bubba Grizz · Post by **Bubba Grizz** » February 8, 2005, 5:44 pm

nobody wrote:the US military does one thing better than anyone else in history...win wars. hell, our two victories in iraq opened the eyes of militaries around the world and they now study those victories. we however are less effective at dealing with insurgencies, though we are adapting and learning many new and valuable lessons. i know it sounds cliche but it looks worse than it is b/c the media reports way more mistakes than successes. you are right lohrno, we have made some mistakes. some have been dealt with appropriatly and others have not.

the thing i don't understand is why the people who complain about the US presence never spoke up about the attrocities committed my saddam. no one complained about the US ousting milosevich (sp) when he had no wmd's. the fact that he was commiting mass murder was enough for the world to support us. saddam totured and killed hundreds of thousands, possibly over one million (according to UN estimates) of his own people. i know we gave them chemicle weapons and supported them in the war against iran. i have no arguement for that. it was wrong and we are paying for those mistakes now. wmd were the initial reason for going into iraq but i still don't regret it. i just wish we had done it a different way. saddam never made an effort to prove he had destroyed his wmd's so the only way we could find out for sure was to go into iraq. but all that aside, saddam still gave the world reason enough to kick his ass

Good post.

What do people think will happend when Saddam gets put on trial? Will he get the death sentence or the Wookie Defense? If they do kill him will that increase or decrease the suicide attacks?

Rivera Bladestrike · Post by **Rivera Bladestrike** » February 8, 2005, 6:06 pm

Aabidano wrote:
Tinkin Tankem wrote:What if we did find wmd's or something close to it and ... dare I say it ... it came from our country or one of our supporting allies!
You've likely hit the nail on the head there, I'd guess they've already recovered them and not announced it due the point of origin. Who were Iraqs two largest creditors before the latest war?

The reasons given for the war don't add up, and while oil sounds good I don't think that's it either.

This is as ridiculous as any other conspiracy theory out there. Really just sounds like right wind Dubya lovers out there trying to make themselves feel better about dragging the rest of the country into a deadly and unprovoked war.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » February 8, 2005, 6:39 pm

i dont think he will get the death penalty simply b/c that would incite more violence from the baathists. personally he is innocent of any wmd charges but is guilty of crimes genocide. for that fact alone he deserves to die and/or rot in prsion.