Rudy T Steps down...

noel · Post by **noel** » February 1, 2005, 6:18 pm

Damn... I wasn't incredibly happy with the way the Lakers were being coached, but this is still pretty much a huge surprise.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1981564

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » February 2, 2005, 11:30 am

Why is this a suprise? If zen master Phil Jackson couldnt tolerate Kobe (leon) Bryant, why do you think any other head coach could?

The only suitable head coach for Kobe Bryant, is Kobe Bryant. Kobe is the only person Kobe will listen too. And Kobe knows the best way for the Los Angelos Kobe's to best succeed.

Im happy that Rudy T will be able to extract himself from the Kobe show.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · February 2, 2005, 11:43 am

Aye, aye Cles.

I truly can't stand Kobe any more. He has become the opposite of what many thought he was for the first 5 years.

I have become a Miami Heat fan now, until Phil Jackson picks his next job...then I will be a fan of them

Love teh Phil.

Proctus · Post by **Proctus** » February 2, 2005, 12:41 pm

You should jump on the Cleveland bandwagon then. Lebron James is the Shiznit

noel · Post by **noel** » February 2, 2005, 3:38 pm

Lebron is the shit.

Actaully, Vanessa could coach him.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » February 2, 2005, 8:01 pm

Personally I believe Phil Jackson is overrated.

Now let the flaming begin.

noel · Post by **noel** » February 2, 2005, 8:03 pm

I don't.

Proctus · Post by **Proctus** » February 2, 2005, 10:25 pm

If Phil were to coach a team that didn't have any superstars like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippin, Kobe etc and took them to a couple championships, then maybe he would be deserving of the title. I would put Larry in there for taking the Pistons to the championship though

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » February 2, 2005, 10:31 pm

noel · Post by **noel** » February 2, 2005, 10:59 pm

Proctus wrote:If Phil were to coach a team that didn't have any superstars like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippin, Kobe etc and took them to a couple championships, then maybe he would be deserving of the title. I would put Larry in there for taking the Pistons to the championship though

Yeah I'm sure getting Shaq and Kobe on the same page and managing their egos for their second and third championships required no skill at all. Anyone could have walked in and done that.

Also, getting buy-in on your system from people like Jordan, Bryant, Rodman, Pippen, and O'Neal is probably simple too.

In today's NBA, given salaries and egos, there's a lot more to coaching than just getting a couple of the more talented players and collecting a ring.

Jackson's legacy

There's been a lot of media flap lately minimizing Phil Jackson's contributions to the six Chicago, and three Lakers championships. REAL coaches, it is said, build title teams from the ground up. Just walking into situations where the likes of Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen, Shaq, and Kobe are the holdover players are virtually can't-miss scenarios.

Left unsaid is that until PJ showed up both MJ and Shaq had been playing for six years without either of them winning a championship. (Kobe had been in the league for three seasons, but was still wet behind the ears. Pip was in his second NBA season when Jackson took over from Doug Collins.)

Civilians fail to understand that one of the most difficult undertakings in all pro sports is winning when you're supposed to win. That's why winning back-to-back championships is always problematic.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » February 2, 2005, 11:29 pm

Its not easy managing an all-star team. Egos get in the way. Jackson was a great coach when he had the players. Most of the other Joe Schmoes couldnt even do half of what he did.

In my book, Jackson will go down as one of the better coaches in the NBA

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » February 2, 2005, 11:56 pm

Yeah he did such a good job of keeping Lakers together and on the same page last year

Not to mention he did such a good job of keeping Rodman under control!

Sorry, I'll take a coach who turns a team around with being stockful of superstars.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · February 3, 2005, 12:30 am

Proctus wrote:If Phil were to coach a team that didn't have any superstars like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippin, Kobe etc and took them to a couple championships, then maybe he would be deserving of the title. I would put Larry in there for taking the Pistons to the championship though

If the other coaches who coached those same players before and after Phil, won championships, then what you said might make the slightest bit of sense.

Proctus · Post by **Proctus** » February 3, 2005, 2:34 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Proctus wrote:If Phil were to coach a team that didn't have any superstars like Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippin, Kobe etc and took them to a couple championships, then maybe he would be deserving of the title. I would put Larry in there for taking the Pistons to the championship though
If the other coaches who coached those same players before and after Phil, won championships, then what you said might make the slightest bit of sense.

No, actually if the teams that Phil won championships with sucked before he got there, THEN maybe it wouldn't make sense.

Think Phil could turn around an orginization like New York with the "Self proclaimed" best point guard in the NBA?

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » February 3, 2005, 2:38 am

I wouldn't exactly give Larry all the credit for taking the Pistons' to a championship. Most of the credit goes to Joe Dumars for putting together that team. Lets not forget, Larry inherited a young team that had put together consecutive 50 win seasons and made it to the conference finals the year prior to his arrival in Detroit.

That being said, Larry Brown is still one of the best coaches of all time. Better than Phil Jackson.

Deward · Post by **Deward** » February 3, 2005, 12:12 pm

Anyone else remember them saying that Kobe would be the next Michael Jordan several years ago. At that time I liked Kobe because he seemed a little more reserved than the Latrell Sprewells. Back then he let his on court abilities speak for him. I don't know what has happened to him in the last couple of years though. He is now a petulant little shitstain and is just another reason for me NOT to watch much NBA.

Proctus · Post by **Proctus** » February 3, 2005, 12:23 pm

Actually, Kobe no longer has the reputation to be a superstar. I remember reading an article comparing him to Michael Jordan and stating that the biggest difference was that Michael was smart with what he said and Kobe was not.

Right now, all the attention is on Lebron James. No one thinks about comparing Kobe to Michael because quite simply... Lebron doesn't have the tainted image AND he's only 20 years old.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 3, 2005, 1:06 pm

Kobe will never have movies named after him. "Like Mike"

His reputation and legacy will be that of a selfish player that couldn't keep his mouth shut or handle his affairs offcourt.

The owner of the Lakers made a huge error in sucking up to Kobe and now he's going to pay the price for many years to come.

noel · Post by **noel** » February 3, 2005, 2:25 pm

Proctus wrote:No, actually if the teams that Phil won championships with sucked before he got there, THEN maybe it wouldn't make sense.

Think Phil could turn around an orginization like New York with the "Self proclaimed" best point guard in the NBA?

Actually, the Lakers, prior to Phil had been a perrenial playoff team that had gone through coaches on about a 2 year basis. Del Harris, Magic Johnson (laugh), Kurt Rambis, Mike Dunleavy...

New York has many other issues and obstacles to winning that have NOTHING to do with coaching. Maybe if they were able to fix their salary situation and give Jackson the control he's alledged to want, but really I don't think that's a good example. I think Jackson in Memphis could be a winning combination...

Phil Jackson is a brilliant coach. Sure if I'm playing NBA 2k3 or 4 with the Lakers, I never lose... but I also never have games where Kobe doesn't shoot, or Shaq doesn't defend the pick and roll, or try to get the rebounds... Coaching the Bulls might have been an easy job, but I refuse to believe that coaching the 2003-2004 Lakers wasn't one of the hardest jobs ever. You slam him for not winning the championship last year, but I contend that last year's Lakers should never have made it past the Spurs don't marginalize the fact that they even made it to the finals.

Look at Flip Saunders in Minnesota. On paper, that team should be destroying their competition, and yet... they're behind this year's Lakers...

I think Larry Brown is a phenomenal coach, but the 76ers never won a championship with him, and where the hell are the Pistons this year? Sure they've had moments of brilliance, but they came out of a weak Eastern Conference last year (barely), and beat an overconfident Laker team that was more concerned with infighting than winning the championship.

I fully agree with Winnow's take on Kobe. Even if he learns not to be selfish on the court, the selfish things he's done off the court, or is alledged to have done off the court will be what people remember about him unless he's able to do a tremendous amount of work on his image.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 3, 2005, 6:56 pm

Noel, I'm sorry, but I could have taken a team with MJ and Pippen to 6 championships.

noel · Post by **noel** » February 3, 2005, 7:04 pm

I'm sure you could...

In the back of your car.

If you could do it, why couldn't Doug Collins do it? No offense to you, but I get the impression Collins knows more about basketball than you do...

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 3, 2005, 7:07 pm

Doug Collins had MJ and Pippen at the height of their talents?

noel · Post by **noel** » February 3, 2005, 7:15 pm

He had them... I'm sure that having Jackson as a coach helped Jordan and Pippen to reach their full potential.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » February 3, 2005, 7:16 pm

I'm sure both of them being under 35 helped a bit...

Not to mention the rotating foul machine at center. Those chumps were nothing but 18 fouls. How hard is that to coach?

Add in like one outside shooter (Kerr, ect.) and BAM! championships.

What he did in LA was a little more impressive, but only in the management of Kobe's out of control ego.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » February 3, 2005, 9:37 pm

I fully agree with Winnow's take on Kobe. Even if he learns not to be selfish on the court, the selfish things he's done off the court, or is alledged to have done off the court will be what people remember about him unless he's able to do a tremendous amount of work on his image.

Not to defend Kobe or anything but MJ isn't exactly known as the least selfish person outside of the court either..

noel · Post by **noel** » February 3, 2005, 10:18 pm

Not to defend MJ (seriously), but I doubt he would have ostracized Shaq, Phil Jackson and Karl Malone.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » February 3, 2005, 11:08 pm

Maybe, although I have no doubt he would have done what benefitted him and what he wanted no matter what they wanted. I never understood the picture some people painted of MJ as a saint.

That said, Shaq, Phil, Malone and Kobe all have oversized egoes.

Karae · Post by **Karae** » February 6, 2005, 7:57 am

Phil Jackson is a great manager, not a great coach. I make the distinction because, while he is not great strategically, that's not what is required from a head coach anymore. Phil Jackson is the best coach of this era because he is the best at managing egos and maximizing cooperation. It's no longer required that a coach be strategically brilliant (read: Red Auerbach), that's what assistants are for.

Of course, it's rather ironic that Red Auerbach should get mention above Phil when his teams always had way more talent than any of Phil's.

Talelor · Post by **Talelor** » February 6, 2005, 4:29 pm

Karae wrote: Of course, it's rather ironic that Red Auerbach should get mention above Phil when his teams always had way more talent than any of Phil's.

How do you beat last year's roster talent wise? I thought it was an all-star team at first glance of the roster.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » February 6, 2005, 4:36 pm

Karae wrote:Phil Jackson is a great manager, not a great coach. I make the distinction because, while he is not great strategically, that's not what is required from a head coach anymore. Phil Jackson is the best coach of this era because he is the best at managing egos and maximizing cooperation.

Phil was good at managing egos. I think you're on the right track about coaches being more like managers these days.

Take a look at the current best teams..San Antonio, Phoenix and last year's Detroit team. All of these teams don't have ego trip players. The Pistons were the Patriots of basketball last year. No big time players but all team players. San Antonio has the quietest superstar in the league in Tim Duncan and the Suns have five players that can take over a game but you never hear a player complaining about minutes or not getting the ball enough.

On the other hand, I've watched all three Suns vs Grizzlies games this year and Mike Fratello has won two of those with excellent coaching so I can't say that it doesn't help to have some coaching skills.

Proctus · Post by **Proctus** » February 6, 2005, 8:07 pm

Winnow wrote:
Karae wrote:Phil Jackson is a great manager, not a great coach. I make the distinction because, while he is not great strategically, that's not what is required from a head coach anymore. Phil Jackson is the best coach of this era because he is the best at managing egos and maximizing cooperation.
Phil was good at managing egos. I think you're on the right track about coaches being more like managers these days.

Take a look at the current best teams..San Antonio, Phoenix and last year's Detroit team. All of these teams don't have ego trip players. The Pistons were the Patriots of basketball last year. No big time players but all team players. San Antonio has the quietest superstar in the league in Tim Duncan and the Suns have five players that can take over a game but you never hear a player complaining about minutes or not getting the ball enough.

On the other hand, I've watched all three Suns vs Grizzlies games this year and Mike Fratello has won two of those with excellent coaching so I can't say that it doesn't help to have some coaching skills.

Wait, you are talking about coaching being important but we both know very well Mike D'Antoni lets Nash run the team. Come on! =)