Our god is a vengeful god!

Spang · Post by **Spang** » January 26, 2005, 6:57 pm

some people just get drunk and some people just fuck.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 26, 2005, 7:01 pm

Lala, ihumpthings.com

Akaran, an emotional argument is an arugment that is based on feeling, not fact or logic. You are making emotional arguments. Not every person who takes a drink of alchohol turns into Frank "The Tank". Not every man drinks away his paycheck like my grandfather (who is an alchoholic) did. Not every person who drinks gets themselves so fucked up they can't function (the first time you're with a hot chick and you get to drunk to perform, you'll never do that again).

A good analogy for drinking would be driving a car. There are people who do it responsibly, and never have an issue. There are others who do it carelessly, and get speeding tickets, or cause accidents. Drinking responsibly means understanding your situation, knowing how much you can drink, and generally not being a fucktard about it. It's about recognizing if you have a problem, and not letting it be a problem.

Edit: Akaran did you know that if you drink too much orange juice you can die from it? Did you know that if you drink too much... WAIT FOR IT... WATER, you can die from it?

Post by **Sylvus** » January 26, 2005, 7:04 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Suv, how can consuming a beverage KNOWN to have serious, even life threatening results be a 'morally neutral' decision? When I load a gun to go kill someone with it - is that 'morally neutral'? No, it's called preperation. I'm not saying that by taking a drink you are going out to kill someone, but you're putting yourself and others at risk when you go out and get yourself blasted out of your skull.

That analogy is way flawed, I hope you can see that. Why don't you compare apples to apples. Drinking, in and of itself, is morally neutral, just as was presented. The act of loading a gun is also morally neutral. Going to kill someone with a loaded gun or the... alcohol-induced superpowers (booze mind bullets??) that I was unaware a person gained when they were totally smashed... whatever, the act of killing someone is where you lose the neutrality.

/edit: er, xatrei was faster

Sylvos · Post by **Sylvos** » January 26, 2005, 7:09 pm

haha akaran drinks from a horses dick hahahahahahah

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » January 26, 2005, 7:10 pm

This thread is making me thirsty. I need a drink.

Deneve · Post by **Deneve** » January 26, 2005, 7:14 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Riiiight.
Because you can't loosen up and make an ass out of yourself without the need for chemical assistance. Tell me - do you chug levitra, too?

I see your perspective, but to each his own man. I'm not suggesting it is the best choice to use alcohol as a social substance, but that's what it is for a lot of people. It is technically a crutch, allowing people to say and do things they normally wouldn't have the balls to do, while providing an enjoyable psycological effect, also seems to be a social steroid for many people. Further, many people honestly drink beer for the taste, this is most common amongst to older generations, but even college students go out for dinner and get a beer with it for the flavor some times. So while booze may not be your cup of tea, don't attack others for it. I suppose you could attack the meth/coke/heroin users, but most of them don't even want to be on the drug any more and are being controlled by their addiction. I hate the thought of doing meth and never want to touch it again, but there's a part of me that wants to drag me back into it. It's a nearly uncontrollable phenomenon. So just be yourself, stay sober and clean, but don't try to rain on everyone's parade because they don't have the same beliefs as you...

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 26, 2005, 7:53 pm

Sylvus and Xatrei did a pretty good job with the gun analogy.

I've never heard anyone make the assumption that hallucinogens are good for you.. would love to see a study backing that one up.

There's a whole wealth of literature out there. You can try "Acid Dreams," by Martin Lee and Bruce Shlain, which is a pretty good book detailing the history of LSD. "The Doors of Perception," by Aldous Huxley, is probably the best book I've read in terms of accurately describing the hallucinogenic experience to someone who hasn't used the drugs. There's really an incredibly extensive literature if you care to do some research.

Incidentally, you particularly might be interested in the research comparing spiritual experiences undergone while under the influence of hallucinogens to religious experiences that people experience while sober.

To clarify, I don't claim that hallucinogens have directly positive physical qualities (like, they won't cure cancer). They do have staggering effects on emotional and mental states, effects which can be either negative or positive.

Easily - self destruction. In the process of getting hammered, he is working towards an adiction to alchohol, increasing his risk of liver failure, and a few other unpleasant things, the least of which is the hangover he'll get from it.

This still doesn't make sense to me. First, addiction is not a necessary result of alcohol use. I've been drinking alcohol for five years and have never had any issues with dependency. I have developed dependencies on other substances and am thus relatively well equipped to recognize addiction. While drinking does negatively affect the health of your liver, it can also positively impact the health of your cardiovascular system. A hangover is a relatively mild reaction which lasts for a few hours, can be easily avoided, and has absolutely no long term implications.

If you're trying to prove to me that there is a downside to drinking alcohol (liver damage and potential addiction, mostly) you are right.

My response to this consists of two points.

First, I argue that this downside is relatively mild and can be easily dealt with by taking basic precautions. To avoid addiction, drink in moderation. If you start displaying symptoms of addiction, stop drinking or cut back on consumption. To combat liver damage, drink in moderation. To combat hangovers, drink some water before bed and make sure that you respect your limits. Furthermore, there are potential positive effects to drinking alcohol. Increased cardiovascular health has been routinely cited as one of these benefits and is widely accepted. Another is increased overall happiness, as Voronwe described.

My second point holds that the results of this activity are not fundamentally different than any other activity in which one chooses to partake. Let's take, for instance, computer game playing. Playing computer game carries a number of negative consequences and inherent risks. First, playing computer games can lead to carpal tunnel syndrome, eye difficulties, and back problems. It can also promote a sedentary lifestyle in which exercise is not a priority. Video games, either collectively or individually, can be addictive, or they can help someone fuel a more generalized internet addiction. They provide excuses for antisocial people to avoid social contact, and can lead to the deterioration of personal relationships. On the other hand, they're entertaining, they can (sometimes) teach thinking or typing skills, they can benefit hand-eye coordination, and they can cause happiness.

Can you explain to me why I should receive moral blame for purchasing a six-pack of beer but you shouldn't receive moral blame for walking out of best buy with a copy of Worlds of Warcraft?

In my personal observations of the addictions of both myself and my friends, it has become my opinion that video game addiction can be every bit as severe as an addiction to cocaine or alcohol or cigarettes. I have, however, only rarely seen a video game addict hit the depths that a heroin or speed addict can sink to. This is, of course, anecdotal.

Suv, how can consuming a beverage KNOWN to have serious, even life threatening results be a 'morally neutral' decision? When I load a gun to go kill someone with it - is that 'morally neutral'? No, it's called preperation. I'm not saying that by taking a drink you are going out to kill someone, but you're putting yourself and others at risk when you go out and get yourself blasted out of your skull.

First of all, provided I take appropriate precautions, I am not putting anyone else at risk, only myself. Similarly, if you take appropriate precautions, your video game habit will not put others at risk, only yourself.

Almost anything you do-- playing a video game, watching sportscenter, eating a bar of chocolate, going for a jog-- has serious, even life threatening results. The actions are 'morally neutral,' in my eyes, because life is a risky thing with actions that have consequences. If you still choose to view them as 'morally wrong,' i can deal with that, but I would also expect you to carry your argument to its logical conclusion and decry almost anything that anyone partakes in as being 'morally wrong.'

Aslanna · Post by **Aslanna** » January 27, 2005, 2:04 am

Someone needs to come up with a VV drinking game.

"For every 'Jackass' in a thread, take a drink"

Etc.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 27, 2005, 2:23 am

I'm blocked

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 27, 2005, 11:30 am

Hallucinogens certainly arent "good for you".

Period, end of discussion.

You can debate that responsible use of them is not particularly "bad for you", but this of course varies with each individual's neuroarchitechture, so it is pretty difficult to predict how you will react to them before taking them.

If you categorize Ecstasy as a hallucinogen, that is terribly bad for you, is neurotoxic to important neurons in low doses after only one or a few uses.

My source for that is an article from Journal of Neuroscience, and tons of others like it. Click "Related Articles".

But back to the subject at hand, Red Wine is good.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 27, 2005, 11:53 am

This one's a real beaut

Ak, you really have a narrow view of alcohol consumption in general. There's more to the appreciation of different beers, spirits, and wine than just drunk frat parties where everyone is humping like rabbits.

Red Wine is good.

Indeed it is.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 27, 2005, 12:21 pm

I have a number of friends who could give you concrete examples of ways in which taking hallucinogens has helped their lives. In terms of being physically good for you, certainly not. But I don't feel that the argument is as simple as that.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » January 27, 2005, 12:33 pm

Well taking a hammer to your head could provide you with a life experience that alters your outlook too....but that doesn't mean it is a good fucking idea.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » January 27, 2005, 12:57 pm

I can't decide who I have more contempt for, those who can't differentiate occaisonal recreational use of drugs/alcohol from addictive behavior or those who try to convince people that somehow drugs are "good for you." Both sides need a better grasp of reality.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » January 27, 2005, 1:33 pm

Sueven wrote:I have a number of friends who could give you concrete examples of ways in which taking hallucinogens has helped their lives. In terms of being physically good for you, certainly not. But I don't feel that the argument is as simple as that.

i'm speaking from a breadth of personal experience, and with the benefit of having 10+ years of perspective to look back on it. I know in many ways, you and I are more or less coming from the same angle on this.

As I have posted before, I had some really wonderful experiences with my friends while alledgedly doing hallucinogens. I wouldnt really change that in general, the only thing i would change is doing it a few more times than i should have.

I didnt really like "Doors of Perception". My opinion is there is no way to explain it to somebody who hasnt had the experience. Basicallly, its not like you think, its better, its worse, more intense, and pretty dramatic. Throw in some Whip-Its, and buckle your seat belt.

The best book on the subject, and it is without peer - but unfortunately out of print - is "LSD: My problem child" by Albert Hoffman - the man who invented the drug. This book should be required reading. It is available online, so google it. Do not eat the paper until you finish the book!

He details some experiences he had with his friends (and scientific colleagues) that are amazingly cool and responsible ways to use the drug.

When i was your age, Sueven, I actively encouraged friends to use LSD with a zealous fervor, because for me - alledgedly - the experiences were truly remarkable.

I learned a lot about myself, about how emotions are formed, recalled, and related. And basically, it changed my career path from field biology to laboratory neuroscience, which has lead me to an even deeper understanding of how i relate to the world. So yes, I'm not saying that people can't have positive experiences.

BUt i will say people can have very negative experiences. And not everybody makes good choices when they are on drugs. I know a couple of my friends could very easily be dead, but aren't.

When you are 20 you don't have the perspective to think of things in that regard, you simply don't. Partly because the portions of frontal cortex that govern behavior have only been operating properly for a few years now

anyway, but i digress.

If you were me, then you should probably drop some acid when you are in college and happy with your life. But since you arent me, i make no recommendations, only disclaimers.

Bottom line, make as informed of a decision as you can. And don't filter the information to only favor the conclusion you want to draw (ie take drugs).
Keep up that flawed reasoning, and you'll wind up in the Dept of Defense leading us into a flawed war!!

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » January 27, 2005, 1:33 pm

Reading back through what Sueven said when the topic of hallucinogens was originallly brought up, I don't see where he's trying to say that they're good for you, or even OK. It was just an attempt (not necessarily a good one, mind you

) to illustrate a point.

Sueven wrote:Additionally, many intoxicants, such as alcohol, marijuana, cocaine, and hallucinogens have been shown to have beneficial side effects, both physically and mentally. This is not to say that they do not have negative side effects, nor is it to argue that the positive side effects outweigh the negative. The fact remains that you cannot make a blanket statement that drinking alcohol is bad for you, because in some ways it is and in some ways it isn't, and sometimes it is and sometime it's not.

EDIT: Vorowne and I sound a lot alike when we were the same ages (allegedly), and his post above sums up the way I view the matter pretty well.

Arsecn · Post by **Arsecn** » January 27, 2005, 2:01 pm

Spang · Post by **Spang** » January 27, 2005, 3:17 pm

yummy!

cid · Post by **cid** » January 27, 2005, 3:26 pm

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » January 27, 2005, 3:28 pm

Voro: I actually agree with you completely. What you're describing as having happened to you is basically what I was referring to as 'positive' effects. I'm not trying to make a blanket endorsement.

noel · Post by **noel** » January 27, 2005, 3:38 pm

Nick · Post by **Nick** » January 27, 2005, 4:09 pm

Hehe I still have your little acid rule book saved in my pm's Voro

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 27, 2005, 4:23 pm

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 4:26 pm

Holy! 190 proof! You could use that to disifect incisions for surgery.

nobody · Post by **nobody** » January 27, 2005, 4:29 pm

1 part everclear
1 part mountain dew
1 part grapefruit juice

i call it everdew

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » January 27, 2005, 4:31 pm

I like the label on it: "Do not apply to open flame,. Keep away from fire, heat and open flame. Contents may ignite or explode."

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » January 27, 2005, 5:28 pm

Purple Jesus punch -- A half gallon of Everclear to eight cans of Grape Hi-C, dumped into a large (preferably clean and new) plastic garbage pail with a bag of ice. The shit could remove rust from a trailer hitch, and very often separated girls from their clothes. Our Purple Jesus parties were legendary.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » January 27, 2005, 6:02 pm

Jesus, we did the same damn recipe except using blue kool-aid. The afterparty reminder, blue puke all over the bathroom

Xatrei · Post by **Xatrei** » January 27, 2005, 6:10 pm

We used Hawaiian Punch.