Free speech starting to disappear in Australia?

[Brotha]

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_pag ... 62,00.html

AN evangelical Christian group incited hatred and severe ridicule of Muslims when it called them demons, liars and terrorists, a tribunal ruled yesterday.

In the landmark ruling, Catch the Fire Ministries pastors Daniel Nalliah and Daniel Scot were found guilty of religious vilification, making them the first under Victoria's new race and religion hate laws.

Pastor Scot told a congregation in a 2002 seminar that Muslims were training to take over Australia and encouraged domestic violence, and that Islam was an inherently violent religion.

Shortly after, the Islamic Council of Victoria filed legal action against Catch the Fire Ministries and the two pastors.

Yesterday in the Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal, Judge Michael Higgins found that throughout the seminar Pastor Scot had made fun of Muslim beliefs and conduct.

"It was done, not in the context of a serious discussion of Muslims' religious beliefs," the judge said.

"It was presented in a way which is essentially hostile, demeaning and derogatory of all Muslim people, their god, Allah, the prophet Mohammed and in general Muslim religious beliefs and practices."

An article published on the Catch the Fire Ministries website and a newsletter distributed by the group were also found to breach the religious vilification legislation.

Islamic Council president Yasser Soliman said the ruling was an important victory for the Muslim community.

"We are not their enemies, we are fellow Australians," Mr Soliman said.

"We don't want to be positioned as an enemy or painted as one.

"Vilification hurts - it's meant to hurt. It's a tool that is sometimes used by extremists."

Pastors Nalliah and Scot described the tribunal's decision as a blow to freedom of speech and said they were considering an appeal.

"Freedom of speech is one of our fundamental values in Australia and this case is not over," Pastor Scot said.

"We cannot let freedom of speech be taken away from us; religion cannot be legislated.

"Gagging people's mouths is the worst thing you can ever do."

Pastor Scot said the seminar, which was organised after the September 11 terrorist attacks in the US, was held to increase understanding of Muslim culture.

Pastor Nalliah said: "There was no hate speech at all.

"It was teaching and understanding of what we knew of what the holy book of Islamic faith says.

"And I believe we, in a free and democratic society, should have the freedom to speak up."

Pastor Nalliah is a member of the new Christian Family First party and unsuccessfully stood for a Senate seat in this year's federal election.

More than 100 supporters and members of Catch the Fire Ministries milled outside the tribunal yesterday, many singing Christian songs.

Judge Higgins will hear submissions from lawyers relating to fines in January.

Under the new vilification legislation, there is no maximum fine.

[Zaelath]

Nope, and in fact, there's no "bill of rights" here anyway.

Besides, free speech doesn't cover vilification, or shouting fire in a theatre, etc.

[Akaran_D]

Nah, I think they decided to be hateful bigots and I don't think that hate has any place in the modern world, so..

[Kaldaur]

Ehh, gonna have to side with Brotha here. The KKK has the right to say what they want, and so should two dumbass ministers who obviously don't know a damn thing about Islam. I know it's a completely different country, and I'm afraid I don't know Australia's laws as well as I should, but these two should be allowed to say whatever dumb stupid thing comes out of their mouths. Only the ignorant would listen to this, anyway. That doesn't mean they don't have a right to say it.

[Zaelath]

They're in Australia, that means they don't have a right to say it. We don't put up with vilification here, or fags.

I know it's a common misconception of Americans that their law applies world wide, but it doesn't, thank fuck.

[Kylere]

They're in Australia, that means they don't have a right to say it. We don't put up with vilification here, or fags.

I know it's a common misconception of Americans that their law applies world wide, but it doesn't, thank fuck.

So what you are saying is that in Austrailia free speech is an oxymoron?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

You people should fear the ever increasing Muslim following just as you so outwardly fear the christians.

[Kelshara]

Most of us don't fear christians. We fear radicals. Of course, that doesn't make most of us run around screaming "FUCK CHRISTIANS!" either though.

[Lohrno]

You people should fear the ever increasing Muslim following just as you so outwardly fear the christians.

Oh no! The Mulsims are invading! *runs around screaming*

Yeah, I agree. You should have the right to say whatever you want, short of anything dangerous, like bomb threats, etc.

Midnyte, I agree with you. Both of those groups need to be kept in check. We can't have the religious right here dictating what can and can't be on TV, etc.

-=Lohrno

[Rekaar.]

You people should fear the ever increasing Muslim following just as you so outwardly fear the christians.

Oh no! The Mulsims are invading! *runs around screaming*

Yeah, I agree. You should have the right to say whatever you want, short of anything dangerous, like bomb threats, etc.

Midnyte, I agree with you. Both of those groups need to be kept in check. We can't have the religious right here dictating what can and can't be on TV, etc.

-=Lohrno

welcome back to the topic...

"It was done, not in the context of a serious discussion of Muslims' religious beliefs," the judge said.

"It was presented in a way which is essentially hostile, demeaning and derogatory of all Muslim people, their god, Allah, the prophet Mohammed and in general Muslim religious beliefs and practices."

The idea is that they're inciting violence. And you can't say whatever you want here in the US either. The President's life for one, is a touchy subject.

For this case I think we don't have the whole story. It may be they are as innocent as they think they are too.

[Lohrno]

Fair enough Rekaar, but if THIS is their only case.

Pastor Scot told a congregation in a 2002 seminar that Muslims were training to take over Australia and encouraged domestic violence, and that Islam was an inherently violent religion.

Then I don't see that as 'inciting violence.'

If after that it was like "and you should kill them." Then yea...

-=Lohrno

[Aslanna]

FUCK CHRISTIANS!

[Lohrno]

FUCK CHRISTIANS!

They usually want to get married first.

-=Lohrno

[Zaelath]

They're in Australia, that means they don't have a right to say it. We don't put up with vilification here, or fags.

I know it's a common misconception of Americans that their law applies world wide, but it doesn't, thank fuck.

So what you are saying is that in Austrailia free speech is an oxymoron?

Heh, nope.

Free speech in the United States is limited too, go shout fire in a crowded theatre. You have laws covering "incitement to violence" as well.

I have no problem saying whatever I want here.

Besides, why do you think it's sooooooo important to protect the "right" of the KKK to spread their propaganda against blacks? You've cracked down pretty hard on Isalmic fundies spreading their propaganda against whitey.

[Animalor]

In the US, whenever an arab acts up, they don't try him, they just send him to gitmo and have the military sodomise him for a while.

It's "Don't ask, don't tell" after all.

[Sylvos]

It's Austalia who cares?
The one thing I can't get out of my head is that Red Kangeroo cartoon which I can not remember anything but one of the songs.
"Hop in a pouch, hop in a pouch, hop in a pouch of a Red Kangeroo, Hippity Hoppity Hippity Hop, around around we go" etc..

weird...

[Lohrno]

It's Austalia who cares?
The one thing I can't get out of my head is that Red Kangeroo cartoon which I can not remember anything but one of the songs.
"Hop in a pouch, hop in a pouch, hop in a pouch of a Red Kangeroo, Hippity Hoppity Hippity Hop, around around we go" etc..

weird...

Because Australia is one of the few places where English is spoken. It may be our new home. =P

</troll>

-=Lohrno

[Tenuvil]

FREE SPEECH FOR THE DUMB!

[Brotha]

I can't believe there haven't been more indignant liberal responses. Let's switch things around here. What if this had been an atheist being fined for villifying and bashing Christians? Do I even have to point out how different the reactions would be?

Wording the judge's ruling a little differently:

"It was done, not in the context of a serious discussion of Christians' religious beliefs," the judge said.

"It was presented in a way which is essentially hostile, demeaning and derogatory of all Christian people, their God, Jesus, and in general Christian religious beliefs and practices."

The outrage to any judge ruling that would be unbelievable- not even the most activist judge in the most backward county in the south would rule that, and if he did it would be front page news around the world and more evidence of how the US is getting more totalitarian, how free speech is disappearing, etc. For you all to defend a judge doing principally the exact same thing in Australia is ridiculous and shows the shallowness of your "free speech even if you disagree with it" beliefs. And for the record, I definently disagree with what those bigots in Australia are saying.

These people weren't fined for the principal of "yelling fire in a crowded" theatre, they were fined for violating a new racial/religious hate speech law. Sure it's in Australia, but a similar law is being made in Britain and I know many lefties are pushing for it here in the US.

[Zaelath]

Are you trying to say the entire left are godless heathens?

[Brotha]

Are you trying to say the entire left are godless heathens?

Where did I even insinuate that?

[Zaelath]

Are you trying to say the entire left are godless heathens?

Where did I even insinuate that?

You imply that the liberals wouldn't be concerned unless it was an athiest getting in trouble for panning Christians.

Why?