Religion forced into public schools

[Homercles]

Here we go again. "Intelligent Design" (universe created by god) is being taught as part of the SCIENCE curriculum.

Heres hoping the ACLU wins this case.

The Dover Area School District was believed to be the first in the nation to mandate intelligent design when it voted 6-3 in October in favor of including the concept in the science curriculum.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/12/14 ... index.html

[Jice Virago]

The fucking fundies won't be happy until we are dead last in social and scientific development. I can't see how anyone on either side of the issue are suprised by this development.

[Sionistic]

while I dont mind alternatives to human origins being taught, judging by the description from cnn, this class sounds completely fucking retarded.

[Fash]

Hey lets all make up our own origin story and force it into schools!

Fuck.

The only acceptable 'origin of the species' education is EVOLUTION.

it's proven, it's rock fucking solid, it's common fucking sense.

believe nothing our primitive ancestors 'opined' about their creation.

[Winnow]

Wow, this is something I can actually back the ACLU on. Keep god (any god) and any religion the fuck away from our kids in school. They suffer enough at home from religious brainwashing. Schools must remain a ray of hope, providing an uncorrupted learning environment.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

I'd have to agree. Science class should actually have science in it. There is no science involved in the Adam and Eve story.

Religion should be taught at home or in churches. That's it. That includes all religions, not just christianity.

[Atokal]

Hey lets all make up our own origin story and force it into schools!

Fuck.

The only acceptable 'origin of the species' education is EVOLUTION.

it's proven, it's rock fucking solid, it's common fucking sense.

believe nothing our primitive ancestors 'opined' about their creation.

Perhaps all of you fucking retards who are siding with the gays on the same sex marriage issue so they can be "equal" would consider being equally vocal in support of an alternative to the big bang giving students the opportunity you all had to make up your own mind.

Btw genius show me this rock solid proof of yours. Because if you have it you would be the first person on the planet. How is your little foil hat working out for you?

[Lynks]

I'd support a religion class in public schools if they tought about the history of each major religion, and even the less popular ones. It could be a very informative subject, learning how each started, the differences in each one, what they believe in, and so forth.

[Winnow]

I'd support a religion class in public schools if they tought about the history of each major religion, and even the less popular ones. It could be a very informative subject, learning how each started, the differences in each one, what they believe in, and so forth.

That's not a bad idea but there's too much room for corruption. I'd also want cults discussed in that class as well. There's too many religions and where do you draw the line as to which ones would be covered?

I think the Humanities course in high school sort of covers this already.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

Why should the Christian kids be forced to study about evolution? There is just as much rock solid proof of creationism as there is of evolution.

[Chidoro]

Perhaps all of you fucking retards who are siding with the gays on the same sex marriage issue so they can be "equal" would consider being equally vocal in support of an alternative to the big bang giving students the opportunity you all had to make up your own mind.

Btw genius show me this rock solid proof of yours. Because if you have it you would be the first person on the planet. How is your little foil hat working out for you?

Are you for the ruling then?

Or are you just ornery because it's only Tuesday?

[Chidoro]

Why should the Christian kids be forced to study about evolution? There is just as much rock solid proof of creationism as there is of evolution.

[Fash]

Perhaps all of you fucking retards who are siding with the gays on the same sex marriage issue so they can be "equal" would consider being equally vocal in support of an alternative to the big bang giving students the opportunity you all had to make up your own mind.

This has to do with humans on earth, and ends there. There is no viable non-religious alternative to Evolution.

Btw genius show me this rock solid proof of yours. Because if you have it you would be the first person on the planet. How is your little foil hat working out for you?

If you can question Evolution, I feel sorry for you. Reality is an important subject to keep up with, and you should've figured these things out by now. I'm as sure about Evolution as I am about Scott Peterson. No hard evidence, but there's no other way it went down.

Life grows everywhere on this planet, and when it survives for many generations, it changes slightly... we got lucky, and thats what it is, luck... we evolved, you can see it in the similarities between us and animals... you can't separate man from animal very far, if a cat had vocal cords as developed as ours, it could talk... get it?..

we are only different because we're more developed, we've got more capabilities. It's like a Windows XP machine next to ENIAC.

[Lynks]

That's not a bad idea but there's too much room for corruption. I'd also want cults discussed in that class as well. There's too many religions and where do you draw the line as to which ones would be covered?

I think the Humanities course in high school sort of covers this already.

Thats the only downfall, too many religions. Even if you covered the 4 major religions, it might not be enough time to teach a good chunk in a semester. "Pagans" should be chapter 1 though.

[Winnow]

Christian kids need to learn how to invoke child protection laws and put themselves up for adoption!

[Sueven]

Holy crap. Homercles, Jice, Sionistic, Fash, Winnow, and Midnyte all just agreed with each other in order. This sounds like a clear-cut issue to me!

Kilmoll and Atokal: Evolution is a fact. The processes by which evolution has worked are up for debate, but the existence of evolution is a matter of fact insofar as any human knowledge can be considered fact.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

What did the cell evolve from?

[Fash]

What did the cell evolve from?

certain proteins in the right conditions attract and start to form RNA and DNA. There are studies going on now where they are imitating how I believe it actually happened. the cell evolved from the inside out.

[Lynks]

What did the cell evolve from?

Its quite obvious where you are headed and we can play this game all day so I'll tell you upfront, just because you don't know, doesn't mean you can blame it on God and be right.

[Thess]

I'd support a religion class in public schools if they tought about the history of each major religion, and even the less popular ones. It could be a very informative subject, learning how each started, the differences in each one, what they believe in, and so forth.

I agree.

[Atokal]

Perhaps all of you fucking retards who are siding with the gays on the same sex marriage issue so they can be "equal" would consider being equally vocal in support of an alternative to the big bang giving students the opportunity you all had to make up your own mind.

This has to do with humans on earth, and ends there. There is no viable non-religious alternative to Evolution.

Btw genius show me this rock solid proof of yours. Because if you have it you would be the first person on the planet. How is your little foil hat working out for you?

If you can question Evolution, I feel sorry for you. Reality is an important subject to keep up with, and you should've figured these things out by now. I'm as sure about Evolution as I am about Scott Peterson. No hard evidence, but there's no other way it went down.

Kinda flies in the face of this doesn't it...

Hey lets all make up our own origin story and force it into schools!
Fuck.
The only acceptable 'origin of the species' education is EVOLUTION.

it's proven, it's rock fucking solid, it's common fucking sense.

believe nothing our primitive ancestors 'opined' about their creation.

Your story is as much a fantasy as any other story of creation. All explainations are plausible except for the BIG BANG. Creationism now incorporates some of the evolutionists beliefs at least mine do.

But to call your explanation proven, rock solid, common fucking sense, is dumb as hell since folks with letters after their name who have spent their lifetime looking for this ROCK solid proof remain holding only a theory.

[Kilmoll the Sexy]

And what did the proteins evolve from? And the protons and neutrons? And on and on.......you see where I am going with this. What started the "big bang"? Where did the matter come from to begin with? I firmly believe in God and the Bible. I don't necessarily think everything in it is accurate....mostly because man is involved in the writing of and interpreting of the language in it. Unlike the hardest line Christians, I believe God created us....but didn't just snap his fingers and Adam appeared. I don't think the earth just appeared overnight. His 7 days were not the equivalent of our 7 days.....

[Animale]

Evolution is a theory.

The same way that gravity is a theory.
The same way that atomic structure is a theory.

To scientists, theory means something far more serious than what it means in everyday life. Theory is one step short of fact. What most folks think are theories, scientists call hypotheses.

Animale

[Homercles]

And what did the proteins evolve from? And the protons and neutrons? And on and on.......you see where I am going with this. What started the "big bang"? Where did the matter come from to begin with?

Where did god come from? What created god?

I believe God created us....

...and that is why Intelligent Design should not be taught as part of the SCIENCE curriculum. Accepting Intelligent Design means you must have faith in a god. That means intelligent design is based upon religion. Therefore it should not be taught in PUBLIC schools. That is the law of the land.

[Fash]

The mere size of it all, should make it clear that we're not important.

1 planet around 1 star, in a galaxy with 200,000,000,000 stars.

in a universe with 200,000,000,000 galaxies.

Man, on this one planet, cannot grasp, cannot explain, cannot ever endeavor to understand where the universe came from.

You can't sit on 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000th of the world and think you know what the rest is like.

Following the chain, obviously this space the universe is in, is contained in yet something else....

The fact that man is one of over 100 billion species on this planet, and that man wrote all religious texts, and what a primitive man they were.... should clue you in that your parents and their parents were misled, by no fault, because their parents were misled before them..

It's not a bad thing to believe in, religion, as long as you're not fanatical... but it is fantasy like santa claus.

[Jice Virago]

The protiens and complex hydrocarbons were there, on their own. <Insert Mystical Boogeyman of Choice here> did not have to be present to observe or create them, just like no one had to be present to observe all the micro organic life on mars for it to have existed. Except of course you guys are probably people who think all of those dinosaur fossils were left by satan to through everyone off the trail!

[Winnow]

Where did god come from? What created god?

The ultimate force! God's daddy?

As for evolution, big bang etc. I'm all behind it and will happily adapt along with our definitions as we continue to evolve our understanding of it.

When you consider that an average of one hundred billion stars inhabit roughly one hundred billion galaxies, it's mind boggling...and that's only what we know...there is absolutely nothing that says our universe isn't one of 100 billion universes as the speed of light limits our current knowledge. As an example to stretch your thinking, picture our entire universe as a star that's part of a galaxy of universes with each one experiencing their own recurring big bangs over the course of 100 billion years...oh man...I'm freaking out!

The argument about what created the very first smallest partical known and what created god (if you swing that way) can go on forever. You can keep asking what created it out of nothing and then ask what created whatever created us out of nothing. That will get you nowhere.

[archeiron]

Evolution is a theory.

The same way that gravity is a theory.
The same way that atomic structure is a theory.

To scientists, theory means something far more serious than what it means in everyday life. Theory is one step short of fact. What most folks think are theories, scientists call hypotheses.

Animale

Evolution is a hypothesis of the behavioural drive behind observed facts. Gravity is an observed event. The equation (F = G * m1 * m2 / r^2) used to describe gravity is a mathematical approximation to the observed gravitational behaviour between two bodies.

Atomic structure is an observal state. The construct described to children during school level physics lessons is an approximation of the observed state.

These things are not similar in the way that you glossed over above.


Your assertion that theory is more important to scientist is flawed due to the imprecision of common language. Scientists recognize different levels of theorization based upon the body of evidence that supports it. Terms like postulate, rules, theories, hypotheses, and laws are used in scientific circles to distinguish between pure conjecture and rigid abstract construct. Physical sciences cannot rely upon the realms of abstract thought available to mathematicians, so they rely upon consistent logical frameworks of theories supported by reproducable experimentation and observations of their surroundings. The strength and solidity of these theories grows as the body of evidence grows to support them and as more related theories are integrated together to build a complimentary, internally consistent framework.

Science is a tool to understand, describe, and mathematically approximate the world around us. Engineering is the application of this understanding to construct tools, structures, and vehicles. These disciplines all have room for massive growth.

The Victorian notion that we are on the verge of knowing everything their is to know no longer persists. The Newtonian notion that we comprehensively understand certain fundamentals has been unwoven with Einstein and his peers. We understand our models are imperfect approximations and we are in a seemingly endless revisionist cycle to draw closer to a perfect understanding.

While we do not pretend to have The Answers as scientists, many fields have strength of conviction based upon reproducable observable evidence and sound logical constructs. Scientists see beyond the medievil "gremlins in the machine" and seek understanding of the world around them.

Creationism used as an alternative to scientific hyphothesis is an anthema to the pursuits of knowledge and understanding that have build the technological marvels of the world that we live in today.


As a student of science and a seeker of knowledge, I denounce anyone who promote ignorance, but I do understand that science and technology is not for everyone. However, introducing this into America's public school system is truly appauling.

[Voronwë]

Why should the Christian kids be forced to study about evolution? There is just as much rock solid proof of creationism as there is of evolution.

that is completely untrue.

in fact it is laughable.

[Animalor]

The day I believe in creationism is the day they find Adam and Eve's fossils.

Until then it's Darwin all the way.

[Rekaar.]

The day I believe in your brand of evolutionism is the day you show me how matter was created, when time started, and you can explain how if matter is neither created nor destroyed and the law of entropy anything you think can be true.

There are many theories that got past hypothesizing that are later proven wrong. The earth is not flat after all.

You can't call it a slamdunk done deal if you can't prove your case completely. The kicker is that you never will be able to explain any of the challenges to evolution mentioned above.

You have more "faith" than I do.

Laughable indeed.

[Kelshara]

I'd support a religion class in public schools if they tought about the history of each major religion, and even the less popular ones. It could be a very informative subject, learning how each started, the differences in each one, what they believe in, and so forth.

This is how we do it back home. Even though we have a state religion and have classes for that, we have several classes where we learn about all other major religions (including basic information about more nature like religions etc). Quite informative and makes you understand other people a lot better imho.

[Lohrno]

The day I believe in your brand of evolutionism is the day you show me how matter was created, when time started, and you can explain how if matter is neither created nor destroyed and the law of entropy anything you think can be true.

There are many theories that got past hypothesizing that are later proven wrong. The earth is not flat after all.

But your theory is not based in science. Religious theories as to creation should not be taught in schools because they are Religious, and we should keep that out of schools as they are government institutions.

You can't call it a slamdunk done deal if you can't prove your case completely. The kicker is that you never will be able to explain any of the challenges to evolution mentioned above.

You can't prove your case at all. At least not scientifically. I think religion is really different for each person. Even if they are the same faith, they likely have different expectations/hopes/faith. They also feel passionately about it. That is why we don't need it in our government and/or schools. If there is a different scietific theory that has the same evidence, that should be taught too. I do not want our schools to be teaching religion in science classes.

-=Lohrno

[Niffoni]

Yay for derails!

The point of the thread was that faith-based stories would be taught as science. It would be something like making children watch television in English class because it's unfair that only books get taught there. The purpose of science classes is to learn about science. It's a purely political move, using children as pawns in a sick religious pissing contest.

[archeiron]

The day I believe in your brand of evolutionism is the day you show me how matter was created, when time started, and you can explain how if matter is neither created nor destroyed and the law of entropy anything you think can be true.

There are many theories that got past hypothesizing that are later proven wrong. The earth is not flat after all.

You can't call it a slamdunk done deal if you can't prove your case completely. The kicker is that you never will be able to explain any of the challenges to evolution mentioned above.

You have more "faith" than I do.

Laughable indeed.

You are using "infinite regression". Essentially you are asserting that all logical constructs used to describe the world around us hinge on some basic assumptions that you refuse to accept (regardless of what they are); as a result you will endlessly question the assumption ad naseum no mattter how innocuous the starting point.

This form of reasoning is nigh impossible to refute, but does not allow you to build any meaningful logical constructs of your own without being hypocritical. I trust that you will view all of your own assumptions with the same skepticism.


Intelligent Design is offers no room for scientific scrutiny or questioning. It offers no body of observable evidence that logically supports the conclusion. It is questionable scientific theory at best, and should probably be taught within a religious class rather than a scientific one.

Scientists are taught to question, whereas religious doctrine is often not open to questioning directly.


What surprises me is that the two ideas are not incompatible (evolution and creationism), but people insist on putting them at odds with one another because they insist on interpretting the Old Testament literally.

[Kylere]

I believe in the scientific evidence backing evolution, I do think it is possible a divine being caused evolution to happen.

Anyone who think thats 5k years ago God zapped up Adam and Eve into existance is a fool. Hell they cannot even tell you where Cain's wife came from.

[Kargyle]

Whether evolution is fact or theory, wrong or right, should really have no bearing on this discussion. We are talking about a science class, you teach science in science class. Whether evolution and natural selection are accurate or not, they are still valid scientific theories and therefore should be taught in schools. Intelligent Design has no basis in science, and therefore shouldn't be taught in school science classes. It really should be that cut and dry.

But because the issue isn't really about education, and is really a politcal move to foist indoctrination on children whose parents would prefer them not to be, we have this big retarded issue. I mean lets be honest. Does anyone here really believe that the children of religous parents who believe in creationism or intelligent design aren't going to be exposed to the ideas of creationism and intelligent design unless it is taught in school? Of course not, this whole issue is about two things.

The forced exposure of non religous children to judeao christrian mythology, and limiting the exposure of religous children to differing view points. I would suggest that if your faith is so weak that it being exposed to evolution destroys your belief in God, then you have no business being a christian anyway.

[Lynks]

Can anyone tell me why these 2 chemicals react? Timmy?

God?

Yes! Thats correct! Now who can tell me what heats the Earth? Johnny?

Hmmm, I know this one.

You could do it Johnny.

Is it ...God?

Yes, gold stars for everyone.

[Funkmasterr]

Seriously, I don't know how you can argue that religion should be taught in school. I am completely devoid of any religious beliefs, the closest I get is that I acknowledge Jesus' existence, I just think he was a start raving lunatic amongst the likes of Jim Jones and such, he just wasn't violent.

I will not raise my children to be religious, although I will not deny them the right if they want to explore it. And in a young stage like elementry school, and in a lot of cases even junior high, kids think that if their teacher says something, it's as good as gold. That being said, then random science teacher (that is strongly religious) tells the kids in his class that jesus waved his cock 360 degrees and all of the sudden a universe that their little minds could not ever grasp was just created.

They then come home and tell me this interesting info obtained from their teacher. The solution I would have to this solution would be to withdraw my child from this school, only after severely beating the teacher that told him this.

If kids want to learn about religion, then they can attend church, or learn about it otherwise. Private schools are another story.

That being said, I would NOT be opposed to a informative class like someone above stated where the children can learn about many religions which would have to be taught by a completely unbias person.

[pyrella]

We have thousands of years worth of physical evidence and proof to back up an evolutionist theory. No one, not once, ever, has proven that there is or was a god, and what he or she did or indirectly did....oh wait...that's because god wanted it to be like that?

How smug do you have to be to think there is only one supreme being anyways?

Even if a higher entity or entities 'created' the world and all it's things, what makes you think you have it right? At least evolutionism gives a reason, and shows examples to back itself up. The religious zealots have a fictional book, that wasn't very well written.

On the first day, wouldn't have been easier to just let everyone have infrared vision so we wouldn't need light? I mean, dude was god right? He can do these things I thought?


What about something as simple as the tradiotanal evoloutionary ladder you know, the one with the monkey at the beginning? We have proof of these things, significant changes in our structure and method of survival....was that god just coming out with his new version of the God© Human™ BC2004 (get yours with low interest financing now)?


The problem you people with blind faith (Rekaar(and others)) have with trying to convince people otherwise, or even connect on a level that would make discussion possible, is it is just that...blind. There is not a SINGLE shred of evidence you can use to back up anything ever said involving religion. Ever. You expect us to believe stories you were told that you believe. We don't know the people who told you the stories, so how can we judge there character as to whether they are truthful, honest people, or just Grade A Bullshitters. They may think they are being truthful and honest, and I'll admit religious people are for the most part some of the nicest, caring people anywhere (on a sidenote, ever heard the term 'Religion is an opiate for the masses'...). But no matter how much of an asshole someone is...if they have proof, it's something you can replicate yourself...and if you can't trust yourself, well hey, there's not much that can be said for you.

[Lynks]

I'm still waiting for the answer to "Who created God"? Did he magically appear out of no where?

[Rivera Bladestrike]

Do we really have to dig up ALL the religion threads? Seriously, I've been copying and pasting my same ideas regarding religion for two years now on these boards.

Same topic, same sides, no difference.

[Mplor]

The day I believe in your brand of evolutionism is the day you show me how matter was created, when time started, and you can explain how if matter is neither created nor destroyed and the law of entropy anything you think can be true.

You are using "infinite regression". <snip>

This form of reasoning is nigh impossible to refute, but does not allow you to build any meaningful logical constructs of your own without being hypocritical. I trust that you will view all of your own assumptions with the same skepticism.

Bravo, Arch. Well put. Everyone should be required to take basic logic in school.

It's extremely difficult to have a meaningful dialogue with someone who can't grasp the necessary consequences of their argument.

Most debates simply consist of trying to get the other party to see that their position implies other things they never thought of and would never agree to.

Of course, half the time they think you used some black magic to "twist" their words and fall back on blind faith in the end anyway. This is the number one reason I mostly lurk.

[Nick]

So along with being the fattest nation, it will be the most retarded.


I feel for you guys.....really.

How can these morons be allowed to make these things happen. They would be laughed out of any other first world country before you could blink.

[Xzion]

So along with being the fattest nation, it will be the most retarded.


I feel for you guys.....really.

How can these morons be allowed to make these things happen. They would be laughed out of any other first world country before you could blink.

Yup, it boggles my mind too

Guess we just need to be ready to welcome China as the next world superpower...dont see how the hell were going to last much longer

[Kelgar]

Evolution does not explain nor does it attempt to explain the origins of life. Its key point has to do with adaptation/mutation. These 2 phenomena are easily and readily observable in organisms with short life spans(ie: viruses).

[Hesten]

Your story is as much a fantasy as any other story of creation. All explainations are plausible except for the BIG BANG. Creationism now incorporates some of the evolutionists beliefs at least mine do.

But to call your explanation proven, rock solid, common fucking sense, is dumb as hell since folks with letters after their name who have spent their lifetime looking for this ROCK solid proof remain holding only a theory.

Well, Christians spend the last 2000 years trying to prove their idea, and guess what, theyre losing that battle, BECAUSE there is no proof.
Ill accept your theory the second you can prove that God exist.

[Hesten]

Btw, has anyone noticed that the only people here who screams about "creationism are the only way" and act like brainwashed cultists are some of the most avid Bush voters? (and yes, im positively surprised Midnyte )

[Nick]

I must be honest, I let out an involuntary burp of surprise when midnyte said something reasonable.

[Kaldaur]

Midnyte and Winnow have always made it known that they were atheist. I think they have always disagreed with Bush's religious policy, they are avid supporters otherwise. I don't find it surprising that they both posted as they did, although the fact that the first six posters all agreed with one another made me chuckle as well.