The pictures you don't see

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » December 12, 2004, 3:30 pm

Sure it is. It is a hell of a lot more reasonable to believe in evolution than to believe in some being guiding and guarding you through life. Of course, if you need that crutch...

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 12, 2004, 3:32 pm

Drinsic Darkwood wrote:
Aruman wrote:
Raistin wrote:But for me to post pictures of deaths of pre born babies in the USA causes you to say fuck you to me? ok.

Im starting to sound like a Bush supporter
My only issue is... Why are you singling out the US? Like the United States is the only country where abortion occurs.
I don't see anything in his statement that suggests the obviously ridiculous notion that abortion only occurs in the U.S. He simply said the pictures were of abortions that occurred in the U.S. Would it not be equally ignorant to claim they originated from somewhere that they, in fact, did not?

Thank you for making my point for me. Why even use USA in his statement at all? Leaving USA out wouldn't change anything at all.

I'd say his statement was meant to get a rise out of the people that live in the United States, when abortion itself is an issue of concern in many other countries.

I'm sure that if he had used <insert country here> that someone from <insert country here> would have made a post similar to mine.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » December 12, 2004, 3:38 pm

Not really. Think you are being extremely touchy heh.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » December 12, 2004, 3:39 pm

Aruman wrote:
Drinsic Darkwood wrote:
Aruman wrote:
Raistin wrote:But for me to post pictures of deaths of pre born babies in the USA causes you to say fuck you to me? ok.

Im starting to sound like a Bush supporter
My only issue is... Why are you singling out the US? Like the United States is the only country where abortion occurs.
I don't see anything in his statement that suggests the obviously ridiculous notion that abortion only occurs in the U.S. He simply said the pictures were of abortions that occurred in the U.S. Would it not be equally ignorant to claim they originated from somewhere that they, in fact, did not?
Thank you for making my point for me. Why even use USA in his statement at all? Leaving USA out wouldn't change anything at all.

I'd say his statement was meant to get a rise out of the people that live in the United States, when abortion itself is an issue of concern in many other countries.

I'm sure that if he had used <insert country here> that someone from <insert country here> would have made a post similar to mine.

I'm going to make a crazy assumption here, but I'd say it probably had something to do with the fact that he's comparing the use of images in which U.S. soldiers had killed/maimed "kids" in Iraq and "kids" killed in America by the U.S.

Abortion doesn't only occur in the U.S. but last time I checked we're not the only country in the world that's killed innocent people via military power.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » December 12, 2004, 3:47 pm

How about "clearly I have but I think you're full of shit" about it, hm?

You're pro choice. Good for you. I am very glad I don't have whatever life experience you've had to warrant comming to such a decision. Pictures or no, I beleive that abortion in almost all cases is one of the most morally twisted acts in the history of this world.

I am a very reasonable person about most things in life; I'm not even completely against abortion (I beleive it should only be done in cases where the mother's life is in danger and possibly rape/incest). But for you to tell me that it's ok to kill babies using "reason"... you're full of it.

Great. Care to explain why viewing pictures of abortion should change ones opinion of abortion?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » December 12, 2004, 3:53 pm

How is having a moral code a crutch?
How is believing that when you do something good, it has meaning is a crutch?
How is having a reliable social structure a crutch?
How is believing in an afterlife where joys upon joys await a crutch?

I beleive it doesn't end with death. If I'm right or wrong, how does it effect you?

Su:
Sure. When you talk about abortion in general, you don't see the results of it. It's just as easy to dismiss an aborted child when all you refer to is a collection of zygotes and cells; it's a bit different to actually see the end result and realize that yes, you Are killing something that had the capacity to become a human life. It's not an emotional reasoning - it's a reality that drives the fact into it.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » December 12, 2004, 3:57 pm

Niffoni wrote:I think Cart's head just popped

Nope! head didnt pop, just tired of all the Murderers on this fourm.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » December 12, 2004, 3:59 pm

Akaran_D wrote:How is having a moral code a crutch?
How is believing that when you do something good, it has meaning is a crutch?
How is having a reliable social structure a crutch?
How is believing in an afterlife where joys upon joys await a crutch?

I beleive it doesn't end with death. If I'm right or wrong, how does it effect you?

It effects them because they cant have their baby killing butt pounding parties.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » December 12, 2004, 4:01 pm

Cart, shut the fuck up.
You're as bad as they are - only you take the grandstanding ultrarightwing attitude. You detract from any coversation that even has the slightest bit of reason to it, you twist the arguments of both sides into things that were never meant or even remotely implied just so you can get a good laugh at someone elses's expense.

Don't you get tired of it?

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » December 12, 2004, 4:03 pm

How is having a moral code a crutch?
How is believing that when you do something good, it has meaning is a crutch?
How is having a reliable social structure a crutch?
How is believing in an afterlife where joys upon joys await a crutch?

It's really pretty simple.

If you're wrong, it's a crutch. If you're wrong, then you've rationalized an entire, totally absurd, metaphysical system because you're either unable to comprehend life as it is or you're too unintelligent to figure it out.

If you're right, it'd be pretty hard to claim that faith in something that exists is a crutch.

The same holds true for anyone who has beliefs about the structure of the universe.

The reason people commonly say that your religion specifically is a crutch is because it's dogma is largely inconsistent with what we have observed about the universe, and thus, for many, it seems totally absurd. This is largely because of it's insistence on the existence of an omnipotent being and the general logical inconsistencies that plague the religion. I'd argue that some other religions, and many other secular belief sets, are far more rationally plausible than Christianity, making them appear less absurd and thus less likely to be viewed as a crutch.

And: So the pictures are valuable to someone who is so stupid as to be completely unaware of the realities of the situation he is discussing?

Fat · Post by **Fat** » December 12, 2004, 4:05 pm

How does it "effect" them? I don't mean to be a grammar nazi, but seriously, if you're going to try to be condescending you might as well read your sentence over once.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » December 12, 2004, 4:11 pm

And so we come to the undenyable conclusion: The only way to determine the factuality of religion is to arrive at one or two distinct events: personal death or biblical armegedon, and no one is going to know for sure until that point. I'm even going to go as far as to say that nothing someone says on a messageboard is going to convince someone else of the existance or lack of existance of God.

So really it doesn't even matter how believes in the existance or lack of existance of God until we're dead, so let's not speak of the topic here again.

And: So the pictures are valuable to someone who is so stupid as to be completely unaware of the realities of the situation he is discussing?

No, but it's a lot harder to dismiss something after you've seen the results of it with your own eyes.

edit: Fat, you're right, I should. I'm dualboxing for a bit before work, so I'm not giving my spelling all that much effort to make sure it's correct.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » December 12, 2004, 4:23 pm

Akaran_D wrote:Cart, shut the fuck up.
You're as bad as they are - only you take the grandstanding ultrarightwing attitude. You detract from any coversation that even has the slightest bit of reason to it, you twist the arguments of both sides into things that were never meant or even remotely implied just so you can get a good laugh at someone elses's expense.

Don't you get tired of it?

Fuck off, Ultrarightwing attitude hahahhahhah Abortion is murder plan and simple, All of you need to stop and think that if your parents thought the way you did you would be a lump of flesh in a trash can.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » December 12, 2004, 4:24 pm

I feel bad for you on the day you grow up and realize how much of a tool you act like.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » December 12, 2004, 4:26 pm

Akaran_D wrote:I feel bad for you on the day you grow up and realize how much of a tool you act like.

I aspire to be the tool that you.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » December 12, 2004, 4:32 pm

So really it doesn't even matter how believes in the existance or lack of existance of God until we're dead, so let's not speak of the topic here again.

First of all, I disagree with your assumption that it is impossible to prove the factuality of religion. The fact that we have not yet determined it's factuality does not mean it is impossible to determine it. For instance, Shiva could manifest himself on earth, and then you would be forced to admit that your monotheistic system is incorrect. Alternatively, piles upon piles upon piles of scientific evidence could eventually become enough to refute the validity of a particular religion. So in this sense I disagree.

I further disagree that there is no value obtained from discussing the subject. While we may not be able to say with 100% validity that (for example) that Christianity is correct or incorrect, we can use our knowledge of the world to look for patterns and ascribe likelihoods. I would argue that it is far more reasonable to design our lives around understandings of natural rules and laws that we believe to be accurate than to design them around those that we suspect to be false or nonsensical.

Niffoni · Post by **Niffoni** » December 12, 2004, 4:48 pm

Cartalas wrote:I aspire to be the tool that you.

I hope that centuries from now, digital archeologists dig this sentence up and spend billions of monies trying to decipher it.

Fat · Post by **Fat** » December 12, 2004, 4:53 pm

That sentence nearly disproves the theory of universal grammar.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » December 12, 2004, 5:37 pm

You know, the fact that a kid might end up as Cartalas is the best argument for abortion. Ever.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » December 12, 2004, 5:43 pm

I'm not so sure... judging by his consistancy in constantly posting things and making arguments that have no logical, rational, or even religious basis whatsoever has led me to believe that he just might be a rather intelligent guy trying to get a rouse out of people here by playing the village idiot for his own entertainment. I can't help but wonder.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » December 12, 2004, 6:19 pm

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite iraaaaaate!

Related:

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » December 12, 2004, 7:02 pm

Drinsic Darkwood wrote:I'm not so sure... judging by his consistancy in constantly posting things and making arguments that have no logical, rational, or even religious basis whatsoever has led me to believe that he just might be a rather intelligent guy trying to get a rouse out of people here by playing the village idiot for his own entertainment. I can't help but wonder.

He's too consistent. An intelligent person would slip and post something coherent once in a while.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » December 12, 2004, 7:23 pm

I only posted the pictures in refrence to the remark about " how about we make fun of abortions ect." yet after going though some webpages to find the pictures I became disturbed after I posted them.

The only reason I even used " In the USA" is because in fact it does happen here. I wanted to make a comparison between the " Good people" posting pictures of Iraqi pictures of children holding up signs and such.So I was doing it in a way for a bait.But I also became troubled at the sight of the pictures, to as seeing a baby in that state. To where I would never allow my partner to ever have a abortion of my child. Although I agree with the Pro Choice sides, I also can think that it is indeed wrong now.

Theres always a speical case in the event that causes a person to have a abortion. Like I said in cases of rape, disfigurement, retarded, mothers or babies health/death I can agree with . But for 2 people just fucking up and taking the short way out of it, I think its wrong. I believe now the state shouldnt allow the mother to have a abortion just because its a inconvience to her.
Should make it be where the State takes control of the baby when its born, maybe even allowing a state program of a medical insurace converage for uncovered women that are expecting , but can't take care of the child that can prove having a baby be a huge hardship and cant afford it. And just taxing the "mother" 10% of a set limit for the insurance on to her tax returns in order to keep the insurance afloat.

I dont know. I wish we all lived in a perfect world and all got along. Yet that will never happen. I wish I had all the answers, but anyones answers just leads to more questions.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » December 12, 2004, 8:31 pm

Thanks for clearing that up. From your posts I at first thought you were saying that you were in fact, pro-life now after seeing the pictures from the GAP, but then Akaran ( who is obviously pro-life ) said "Fuck you", which seriously confused me. That confusion was only reinforced after Sueven defended your "pro-choice" stance.

So I guess my question is to Akaran:

Are you simply illiterate? Are you mad at Raistin's sudden change of heart over a series a pictures? Or are you angry about his "Midnyte voice" comments?

Thess · Post by **Thess** » December 12, 2004, 9:12 pm

Cart, my mom did get an abortion, before I was born. So obviously she does think like I do. However had she not gotten an abortion, I wouldn't have been born.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 12, 2004, 9:33 pm

Drinsic Darkwood wrote: Abortion doesn't only occur in the U.S. but last time I checked we're not the only country in the world that's killed innocent people via military power.

So now you are trying to make some retarded link between accidental civilian deaths in time of war and deliberate abortions?

Sorry, but the United States military does not create plans on deliberately killing non-combatants. Avoiding deaths of non-combatants is unfortunately almost impossible to accomplish, especially when the opposing forces use civilians as human shields.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » December 12, 2004, 10:03 pm

Thess wrote:Cart, my mom did get an abortion, before I was born. So obviously she does think like I do. However had she not gotten an abortion, I wouldn't have been born.

While Im glad you " Seeing it was no choice of yours" have a healthy life, I am truly sorry it came at the expense of another. There are some cases for abortion I.E the welfare of the mother but those are matters of the heart. I guess I am getting on the Willy Nilly abortions the ones that done because the mother wont or cant take care of the child, or the child is deformed due to the drug use of the mother. Or the Pro-Abortion freaks that say " Its my body ill do what I want" well news flash its not just there body.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » December 12, 2004, 10:23 pm

Aruman wrote:
Drinsic Darkwood wrote: Abortion doesn't only occur in the U.S. but last time I checked we're not the only country in the world that's killed innocent people via military power.
So now you are trying to make some retarded link between accidental civilian deaths in time of war and deliberate abortions?

Sorry, but the United States military does not create plans on deliberately killing non-combatants. Avoiding deaths of non-combatants is unfortunately almost impossible to accomplish, especially when the opposing forces use civilians as human shields.

What are you, stupid? Christ no I'm not suggesting the United States military sits at a table thinking "Gee, let's see how many Iraqis we can knock out with this next bombing."

I'm not even the one originally trying to make the point. Pay careful attention to the following sentences, it may get rough.

This thread started out swiftly with images of children being maimed/killed from bombings in Iraq, which were being justified as the truth of war, or however you want to say it.

Then Raistin posted two images that were the result of child abortions, which is, to some, considered the murder of children.

The pictures of the Iraqi children were the result of U.S. attacks. Thus, to question Akaran's ridiculous statement Raistin said, "But for me to post pictures of deaths of pre born babies in the USA causes you to say fuck you to me? ok. "

The original maimed children in Iraq were the result of U.S. attacks, and the pictures of the abortions were the "result of the U.S." Raistin's message here had abso-fucking-lutely nothing with suggesting that the U.S. is the only country to perform abortions, NOR is it the only country to have killed innocent lives accidently as the result of military operations. To clarify, it's not a link between the actual accidental killing of Iraqis and the deliberate abortions - i.e. why is it ok to post pictures of children killed in Iraq but not children killed in our own country? The argument was about images, not the murder.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » December 12, 2004, 10:39 pm

Thank you. That was a good sum up.

Aruman · Post by **Aruman** » December 13, 2004, 12:22 am

Drinsic Darkwood wrote: The original maimed children in Iraq were the result of U.S. attacks...

How did you come to that conclusion? That is just an assumption.

Anyway, this is getting way off track of the original topic I think, so stopping here.

Drinsic Darkwood · Post by **Drinsic Darkwood** » December 13, 2004, 12:43 am

Ok pretend the word supposedly is in that sentence, and the point in the message still stands.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » December 13, 2004, 1:36 am

So I guess my question is to Akaran:

Are you simply illiterate? Are you mad at Raistin's sudden change of heart over a series a pictures? Or are you angry about his "Midnyte voice" comments?

Illiterate, no, unfortunately blinded by an uncharastic burst of anger and disgust, yes. (When was the last time you ever saw me make a blanket "fuck you" comment on these boards?) When I saw the pics, I didn't read his next post fully - I stopped at the 100% Pro Choice part.

Like some posters have a tendancy to do around here, I reacted before I read / comprehended everything he had posted fully. Like you, I ended up confused myself. So, Raist, you have my apologies, and thank you for clearing that up.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » December 13, 2004, 3:04 am

Akaran, I am 100% pro-choice and you have seen eye to eye with me without being rude to me. You have also told me that you realise making abortions illegal would not solve the problem, and also told me you are for more education in terms of sex and protection.

Raistin · Post by **Raistin** » December 13, 2004, 3:39 am

Yea making it illegal wouldnt help any. As long we have

and

there will always be a way to have a abortion.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » December 13, 2004, 3:50 am

Don't forget knitting needles, another way women self-aborted...

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » December 13, 2004, 3:54 am

The best solution is to always attack the root of the problem. In the case of abortion, it's preventing unwanted pregnancies in the first place and that involves educating kids at an early age.

When you're dealing with a natural instinct, your sexual drive, you absolutely can't blame the person if they aren't educated as it's only natural to have sex. Beyond that, even if sex basics are known to the parties involved, you're left with naivety, peer pressure, mind altering substances, and sometimes just the overwhelming natural urge to procreate. Add on top of that the neglect by most couples to factor in their actual ability to support a child before getting pregnant and you have many many valid reasons to have an abortion without health or criminal reasons even being considered.

Bear with me you ultra religious types. First off, sex is natural and healthy to have. It's outdated to think that people are going to wait until they're married to have it. With all of the reasons I've stated above, making abortion illegal is never going to happen. The only thing you could possibly hope for is to drive it underground which would only cause more havok with shady abortion networks.

Your options are:

1. Get rid of the instinctual urge to have sex altoghether and rely on artificial insemination for our offspring. (not going to happen for many reasons)

2. Unpermanently sterilize everyone from birth and only permit pregnancies by applying for cetificates (no one would be denied, the conscious decision to become fertile again being the key here) which would allow a couple to conceive. (not going to happen)

3. Acknowledge that unwanted pregnancies are always going to occur and pursue every avenue available to research the most effective forms of sex education and then implement them as a major part of our early child education system starting in junior high school.

I personally would go with a combination of 2 and 3. Although it will never happen, I think that sterilizing everyone and forcing people to make a conscious decision, which involves more than the sexual act, would solve 90 percent of our problem and an aggressively developed realistic sex education program would take care of the another 5 percent leaving maybe 5 percent of the unwanted pregnancies that we currently have today. Since sterilization has no chance of becoming a reality, I think that a realistic sex education system would maybe reduce unwanted pregnancies (since that's the actual issue, not abortions) by 75 percent and in turn, reduce abortions by the same. For the remaining pregnancies, the knowledge of adoption should be a part of the education system so each person knows that's an option as well.

Religious people and everyone else need to take a realistic look at the issue and not just say "abortion is bad" or "I'm pro life no matter what" without trying to stop the reason behind abortion which is unwanted pregnancies.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » December 13, 2004, 4:21 am

wtf I agree with Winnow

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » December 13, 2004, 5:34 am

Thess wrote:wtf I agree with Winnow

Hehe Thess, im chocked too, never though that should happen to me

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » December 13, 2004, 8:58 am

[quote="Cartalas"]WOW!!! I see how you Liberal pussys work, " Lets kill them before the come out of the womb" I could post pictures of people killed by the US in Iraq all day and it wouldnt scratch the surface of how many people Saddam and his loving (Dead) sons killed not to mention all the murdered babys the liberals support the abortion of. You say you dont belive in God well for your sake I hope your right if not your fucked.

So in a nutshell if I condoned the murder of millons of innocent children un born I would not belive in god either.

So a hearty FUCK YOU!!! murders!!![/q
Shows how often cartalas gets laid....
Your jack off towel has millions and millions of potential babys all over it, how dare you disregard life...and god forbid you ever meet that fat chick on the internet and you have to use protection....

godamn hypocrites the lot of you

i think god would be more worried about our free will being taken away from the government, and for equal protection of all humans regardless of there color sex or sexual orientation

Wulfran · Post by **Wulfran** » December 13, 2004, 3:44 pm

Raistin wrote:Although I agree with the Pro Choice sides, I also can think that it is indeed wrong now...

...I dont know. I wish we all lived in a perfect world and all got along. Yet that will never happen. I wish I had all the answers, but anyones answers just leads to more questions.

I think a lot of pro-Choice people feel exactly this way. I don't condone abortion as a means of birth control but if restricting it means teen age girls using the vacuums, coat hangers, knitting needles and killing themselves as well as the unborn fetus, then what is the answer? I wholeheartedly agree with Winnow in regards to the need for education (and the wish for an ability to "temporarily sterilize: people) but we live in this reality, and it will take time and money to change it.

Ultimately, to me, if it comes down to an abortion, then it should be the responsibility of the mother, based on consultation with her physician and her partner. Its their moral code that matters, not Akaran's Raistin's, mine or anyone elses.

p.s. and can we PLEASE stop quoting Cartalas? I have him on STFU/Ignore for good reason...