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Post by Brotha »

This entire piece is great, but this part especially hits the nail right on the head:

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?pt=whKP5U% ... hQuh%3D%3D
The Softs

Kerry was a flawed candidate, but he was not the fundamental problem. The fundamental problem was the party's liberal base, which would have refused to nominate anyone who proposed redefining the Democratic Party in the way the ADA did in 1947. The challenge for Democrats today is not to find a different kind of presidential candidate. It is to transform the party at its grassroots so that a different kind of presidential candidate can emerge. That means abandoning the unity-at-all-costs ethos that governed American liberalism in 2004. And it requires a sustained battle to wrest the Democratic Party from the heirs of Henry Wallace. In the party today, two such heirs loom largest: Michael Moore and MoveOn.

In 1950, the journal The New Leader divided American liberals into "hards" and "softs." The hards, epitomized by the ADA, believed anti-communism was the fundamental litmus test for a decent left. Non-communism was not enough; opposition to the totalitarian threat was the prerequisite for membership in American liberalism because communism was the defining moral challenge of the age.

The softs, by contrast, were not necessarily communists themselves. But they refused to make anti-communism their guiding principle. For them, the threat to liberal values came entirely from the right--from militarists, from red-baiters, and from the forces of economic reaction. To attack the communists, reliable allies in the fight for civil rights and economic justice, was a distraction from the struggle for progress.

Moore is the most prominent soft in the United States today. Most Democrats agree with him about the Iraq war, about Ashcroft, and about Bush. What they do not recognize, or do not acknowledge, is that Moore does not oppose Bush's policies because he thinks they fail to effectively address the terrorist threat; he does not believe there is a terrorist threat. For Moore, terrorism is an opiate whipped up by corporate bosses. In Dude, Where's My Country?, he says it plainly: "There is no terrorist threat." And he wonders, "Why has our government gone to such absurd lengths to convince us our lives are in danger?"

Moore views totalitarian Islam the way Wallace viewed communism: As a phantom, a ruse employed by the only enemies that matter, those on the right. Saudi extremists may have brought down the Twin Towers, but the real menace is the Carlyle Group. Today, most liberals naïvely consider Moore a useful ally, a bomb-thrower against a right-wing that deserves to be torched. What they do not understand is that his real casualties are on the decent left. When Moore opposes the war against the Taliban, he casts doubt upon the sincerity of liberals who say they opposed the Iraq war because they wanted to win in Afghanistan first. When Moore says terrorism should be no greater a national concern than car accidents or pneumonia, he makes it harder for liberals to claim that their belief in civil liberties does not imply a diminished vigilance against Al Qaeda.

Moore is a non-totalitarian, but, like Wallace, he is not an anti-totalitarian. And, when Democratic National Committee Chairman Terry McAuliffe and Tom Daschle flocked to the Washington premiere of Fahrenheit 9/11, and when Moore sat in Jimmy Carter's box at the Democratic convention, many Americans wondered whether the Democratic Party was anti-totalitarian either.

Next: If Moore is America's leading individual soft, liberalism's premier soft organization is MoveOn. ... Like the softs of the early cold war, MoveOn sees threats to liberalism only on the right. And thus, it makes common cause with the most deeply illiberal elements on the international left.

If Moore is America's leading individual soft, liberalism's premier soft organization is MoveOn. MoveOn was formed to oppose Clinton's impeachment, but, after September 11, it turned to opposing the war in Afghanistan. A MoveOn-sponsored petition warned, "If we retaliate by bombing Kabul and kill people oppressed by the Taliban, we become like the terrorists we oppose."

By January 2002, MoveOn was collaborating with 9-11peace.org, a website founded by Eli Pariser, who would later become MoveOn's most visible spokesman. One early 9-11peace.org bulletin urged supporters to "[c]all world leaders and ask them to call off the bombing," and to "[f]ly the UN Flag as a symbol of global unity and support for international law." Others questioned the wisdom of increased funding for the CIA and the deployment of American troops to assist in anti-terrorist efforts in the Philippines. In October 2002, after 9-11peace.org was incorporated into MoveOn, an organization bulletin suggested that the United States should have "utilize[d] international law and judicial procedures, including due process" against bin Laden and that "it's possible that a tribunal could even have garnered cooperation from the Taliban."

In the past several years, MoveOn has emerged, in the words of Salon's Michelle Goldberg, as "the most important political advocacy group in Democratic circles." It boasts more than 1.5 million members and raised a remarkable $40 million for the 2004 election. Many MoveOn supporters probably disagree with the organization's opposition to the Afghan war, if they are even aware of it, and simply see the group as an effective means to combat Bush. But one of the lessons of the early cold war is scrupulousness about whom liberals let speak in their name. And, while MoveOn's frequent bulletins are far more thoughtful than Moore's rants, they convey the same basic hostility to U.S. power.

In the early days after September 11, MoveOn suggested that foreign aid might prove a better way to defeat terrorism than military action. But, in recent years, it seems to have largely lost interest in any agenda for fighting terrorism at all. Instead, MoveOn's discussion of the subject seems dominated by two, entirely negative, ideas. First, the war on terrorism crushes civil liberties. On July 18, 2002, in a bulletin titled "Can Democracy Survive an Endless 'War'?," MoveOn charged that the Patriot Act had "nullified large portions of the Bill of Rights." Having grossly inflated the Act's effect, the bulletin then contrasted it with the--implicitly far smaller--danger from Al Qaeda, asking: "Is the threat to the United States' existence great enough to justify the evisceration of our most treasured principles?"

Secondly, the war on terrorism diverts attention from liberalism's positive agenda, which is overwhelmingly domestic. The MoveOn bulletin consists largely of links to articles in other publications, and, while the organization says it "does not necessarily endorse the views espoused on the pages that we link to," the articles generally fit the party line. On October 2, 2002, MoveOn linked to what it called an "excellent article," whose author complained that "it seems all anyone in Washington can think or talk about is terrorism, rebuilding Afghanistan and un-building Iraq." Another article in the same bulletin notes that "a large proportion of [federal] money is earmarked for security concerns related to the 'war on terrorism,' leaving less money available for basic public services."

Like the softs of the early cold war, MoveOn sees threats to liberalism only on the right. And thus, it makes common cause with the most deeply illiberal elements on the international left. In its campaign against the Iraq war, MoveOn urged its supporters to participate in protests co-sponsored by International answer, a front for the World Workers Party, which has defended Saddam, Slobodan Milosevic, and Kim Jong Il. When George Packer, in The New York Times Magazine, asked Pariser about sharing the stage with apologists for dictators, he replied, "I'm personally against defending Slobodan Milosevic and calling North Korea a socialist heaven, but it's just not relevant right now."

Pariser's words could serve as the slogan for today's softs, who do not see the fight against dictatorship and jihad as relevant to their brand of liberalism. When The New York Times asked delegates to this summer's Democratic and Republican conventions which issues were most important, only 2 percent of Democrats mentioned terrorism, compared with 15 percent of Republicans. One percent of Democrats mentioned defense, compared with 15 percent of Republicans. And 1 percent of Democrats mentioned homeland security, compared with 8 percent of Republicans. The irony is that Kerry--influenced by his relatively hawkish advisers--actually supported boosting homeland security funding and increasing the size of the military. But he got little public credit for those proposals, perhaps because most Americans still see the GOP as the party more concerned with security, at home and abroad. And, judging from the delegates at the two conventions, that perception is exactly right.
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Post by Zaelath »

So what, you propose a move back to McCarthyism?

Moore is a tool at times, but a lot of the time he's dead on target, and the relative threat that terrorism poses compared the the public perception and the governments spending is laughable. I suppose you still believe those dominos are falling at some kind of rate that can only be theorised with quantum theory after the failure of the US to defeat communism in Vietnam.

I don't think there's much the democrats can do to win a US election, unless it becomes a battle of charisma.. so perhaps they can get across the line w/ Hillary Godzilla Clinton. But if the election is on pissing away your future to make your life more comfortable today, there's far far too much self interest in the electorate to support a candidate that doesn't want to plunge the US further and further into debt greasing the rich and fighting untennable "wars" against ephemeral opponents.
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Post by Mak »

Zaelath wrote:So what, you propose a move back to McCarthyism?

Moore is a tool at times, but a lot of the time he's dead on target, and the relative threat that terrorism poses compared the the public perception and the governments spending is laughable. I suppose you still believe those dominos are falling at some kind of rate that can only be theorised with quantum theory after the failure of the US to defeat communism in Vietnam.

I don't think there's much the democrats can do to win a US election, unless it becomes a battle of charisma.. so perhaps they can get across the line w/ Hillary Godzilla Clinton. But if the election is on pissing away your future to make your life more comfortable today, there's far far too much self interest in the electorate to support a candidate that doesn't want to plunge the US further and further into debt greasing the rich and fighting untennable "wars" against ephemeral opponents.
So... now that the election is over you don't have to pretend to be "tough on terror" anymore, is that it?
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Post by vn_Tanc »

Michael fucking Moore again? Will you righties change the fucking record?

That article does not really represent liberals. It addresses the right-wing fiction of liberalism, not the genuine article.
While I agree there is a terrorist threat that needs addressing I believe the UK and US governments are scaremongering over the scale of the problem. I also agree with Gen. Musharrif (visiting the UK this week) when he says the war on terror is not addressing the underlying causes of terrorism.
Nobody in their right mind is suggesting (as you righties keep fucking banging on about) that we invite totalitarian Islam into our homes with open arms. We just think there's a better way to approach the problem than "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out".
Until you all stop floating this preposterous demonized fantasy of liberalism you're going to get fucking nowhere discussing these issues.
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Post by Zaelath »

Mak wrote:So... now that the election is over you don't have to pretend to be "tough on terror" anymore, is that it?
If you believe Bush is "tough on terror" more fool you.
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Post by Kylere »

I invite Islam into my home with open arms, just as I do Cristianity, Buddha, well basically everything not a cult. I reject nutcase fundamentalists of all religions however.

But it is obvious Tanc is incapable of drawing a distinction.
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Post by Lynks »

Kylere wrote:I invite Islam into my home with open arms, just as I do Cristianity, Buddha, well basically everything not a cult. I reject nutcase fundamentalists of all religions however.

But it is obvious Tanc is incapable of drawing a distinction.
He said totalitarian Islam.
totalitarian wrote:Of, relating to, being, or imposing a form of government in which the political authority exercises absolute and centralized control over all aspects of life, the individual is subordinated to the state, and opposing political and cultural expression is suppressed: “A totalitarian regime crushes all autonomous institutions in its drive to seize the human soul” (Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr.).
You would accept this with open arms?
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Post by vn_Tanc »

that we invite totalitarian Islam into our homes with open arms
What Lynks said.
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Post by Rekaar. »

vn_Tanc wrote:Michael fucking Moore again? Will you righties change the fucking record?

That article does not really represent liberals. It addresses the right-wing fiction of liberalism, not the genuine article.
While I agree there is a terrorist threat that needs addressing I believe the UK and US governments are scaremongering over the scale of the problem. I also agree with Gen. Musharrif (visiting the UK this week) when he says the war on terror is not addressing the underlying causes of terrorism.
Nobody in their right mind is suggesting (as you righties keep fucking banging on about) that we invite totalitarian Islam into our homes with open arms. We just think there's a better way to approach the problem than "kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out".
Until you all stop floating this preposterous demonized fantasy of liberalism you're going to get fucking nowhere discussing these issues.
The point is not that we keep floating this, it's that Moore stands for it and he gets prominence within your party. Point of the article is that you guys are shooting yourselves in the foot by not focusing on solving issues but on fighting the "evil righties."
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Post by Lohrno »

Rekaar. wrote: The point is not that we keep floating this, it's that Moore stands for it and he gets prominence within your party. Point of the article is that you guys are shooting yourselves in the foot by not focusing on solving issues but on fighting the "evil righties."
The "evil righties" are the biggest threat this country faces right now. They are the biggest problem that needs to be solved.

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Post by Rekaar. »

Grats you on failing poli sci 101 :(
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Post by Lohrno »

Rekaar. wrote:Grats you on failing poli sci 101 :(
Great would you care to explain to me why the current undermining of our constitution as well as the possible voter fraud and destruction of democracy is not the greatest threat to our country?

Here are some examples:

Abortion

Gay rights

Bush's funding of Christian initiatives (separation of church and state)

FTC becomming overbearing because of these groups. (1st ammendment)

-=Lohrno
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Post by Fash »

The people whom you're calling 'evil righties' are fighting very hard to keep this country safe.

You're wrong about them.
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Post by Lohrno »

Fash wrote:The people whom you're calling 'evil righties' are fighting very hard to keep this country safe.

You're wrong about them.
Fash, I'm not sure if I group you with them. You may be Republican, but your stances on many issues do not parrot the hard lines these people give.

Anyways, the Iraq invasion is not making us safer at the moment...so I'm not sure how its happening...

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Post by Fash »

Lohrno wrote:Anyways, the Iraq invasion is not making us safer at the moment...so I'm not sure how its happening...
-=Lohrno
I don't know anyone qualified to make that statement, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
Lohrno wrote: Fash, I'm not sure if I group you with them. You may be Republican, but your stances on many issues do not parrot the hard lines these people give.
Glad you realize at least that... American first, Ideologically Independant second, Republican third.
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Post by Lohrno »

Fash wrote: I don't know anyone qualified to make that statement, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
Well, do you think invading a country for little reason in a volitile region filled with people who like to make political statements by blowing themselves up and killing civilians is making us safer?

Even Dick Cheney denied saying that Iraq had links to Al Qaeda...

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Post by Rekaar. »

Lohrno it's people like you that will ensure the liberals of this country will continue to lose influence in mainstream society. I'm not going to bother trying to tell you how to win any more. You'll either get it someday (when a Clinton tells you to?) or you'll continue to flounder in frustration.

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Post by Lohrno »

Rekaar. wrote:Lohrno it's people like you that will ensure the liberals of this country will continue to lose influence in mainstream society. I'm not going to bother trying to tell you how to win any more.
I'm not quite sure I understand...Are you making an argument? Are you disputing mine? Or are you just making a "People like you will ruin this country." statement?

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Post by Fash »

Lohrno wrote:
Fash wrote: I don't know anyone qualified to make that statement, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
Well, do you think invading a country for little reason in a volitile region filled with people who like to make political statements by blowing themselves up and killing civilians is making us safer?

-=Lohrno
They aren't blowing themselves up here are they?... They haven't successfully attacked our homeland in over 3 years have they?

I believe the disruptions in and demolition of parts and pieces of terror networks caused by the iraq war has made us safer.
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Post by Lohrno »

Fash wrote: They aren't blowing themselves up here are they?... They haven't successfully attacked our homeland in over 3 years have they?

I believe the disruptions in and demolition of parts and pieces of terror networks caused by the iraq war has made us safer.
What about the new terror networks that are going to start as a result of all those people disgruntled at all the civilian casualties? The 9/11 attacks were planned over years...

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Post by Fash »

Lohrno wrote: What about the new terror networks that are going to start as a result of all those people disgruntled at all the civilian casualties? The 9/11 attacks were planned over years...
-=Lohrno
What about them?... and who's to say that one will form? Wouldn't people upset about casualties be pretty stupid to pick a fight with US?

I'm not saying we'll never get hit... but we're trying our best to defend against it and it doesn't matter what network they're from.
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Post by Rekaar. »

Lohrno wrote: I'm not quite sure I understand...
-=Lohrno
exactly :-(
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Post by Lohrno »

Fash wrote: What about them?... and who's to say that one will form? Wouldn't people upset about casualties be pretty stupid to pick a fight with US?

I'm not saying we'll never get hit... but we're trying our best to defend against it and it doesn't matter what network they're from.
Well the thing is this: Our invasion for no good reason does not help stop terrorism. I think it would have been better for us to concentrate more on Afghanistan.

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Post by Lohrno »

Rekaar. wrote:
Lohrno wrote: I'm not quite sure I understand...
-=Lohrno
exactly :-(
If you're asserting my lack of understanding something, then you should explain what exactly that is.

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Post by Fash »

Lohrno wrote: Well the thing is this: Our invasion for no good reason does not help stop terrorism. I think it would have been better for us to concentrate more on Afghanistan.
-=Lohrno
Again making a statement you are not qualified to make...

It was with good, documented reason going back 12+ years, including the policy of regime change set during the clinton administration. It was by proxy of the 17 UN Violations when one finally got worded properly that we could invade when they ignored our demands.

You do not know the amount of terrorists that have been captured or killed, and neither do I. I know it's a shitload, and I find it hard to believe people can see what we did in Afghanistan and Iraq and think "I'm gonna join the terrorists".
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Post by Lohrno »

Fash wrote: Again making a statement you are not qualified to make...
Don't you think our leaders should be accuntable? I mean first Cheney said there were biological weapons in Iraq, and clear links to Al Qaeda. Not he says there are not. We were lied to for some reason. If you support the Bush admin, I don't know why you would believe Cheney would lie the second time...
It was with good, documented reason going back 12+ years, including the policy of regime change set during the clinton administration.
[/qoute]

I'm not sure how invading a country that posed no direct threat to us is good documented reason. If there was a direct threat I'd like to see...
It was by proxy of the 17 UN Violations when one finally got worded properly that we could invade when they ignored our demands.
How many UN violations have we committed? I'm surprised we are still in the UN....
You do not know the amount of terrorists that have been captured or killed, and neither do I. I know it's a shitload, and I find it hard to believe people can see what we did in Afghanistan and Iraq and think "I'm gonna join the terrorists".
Condolezza Rice claims around 200 Al Qaeda leaders have been captured. If there were 200 leaders, how many grunts do they have?

Remember that these people believe they are going to heaven filled with nubile virigns for their deeds. If their family was shot/killed by some of our troops or leaders' incompetence, then they may do three things: Grieve quietly, join the insurgency, or join a terrorist cell. There have been about 100,000 civilian casualties...

Afghanistan I understand - they were clearly harboring terrorists. Iraq I do not.

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Post by Fash »

Intelligence gathered by countries around the world said the same thing.

Hindsight is 20/20, we're not going there.

The matter at hand was safety... and even John Kerry said "Anyone who can say we are not safer without saddam hussein doesn't have the judgement to be president".
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Post by Lohrno »

Fash wrote:Intelligence gathered by countries around the world said the same thing.

Hindsight is 20/20, we're not going there.

The matter at hand was safety... and even John Kerry said "Anyone who can say we are not safer without saddam hussein doesn't have the judgement to be president".
Actually our own intelligence indicated that there was a real possibility they have all been destroyed. If we had let Hans Blix do his job we would have known and could have chosen a path of peace.

I don't think we're safer or any less safe with Saddam out of the way. We are less safe due to our invasion however. Certainly our troops are less safe.

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Post by Zaelath »

Fash wrote:Intelligence gathered by countries around the world said the same thing.

Hindsight is 20/20, we're not going there.

The matter at hand was safety... and even John Kerry said "Anyone who can say we are not safer without saddam hussein doesn't have the judgement to be president".
John Kerry was a pandering bitch and knew Americans aren't comfortable being wrong as a people about going to war, and there's Zero votes in the US saying anything but what he did.

There WAS intelligence that said Saddam had an active WMD program, but none of the intelligence agencies believed it was credible. Bush chose to go against their advice because he wanted an excuse.
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Post by Thess »

Sorry, but we don't need your advice, thanks though.
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Post by Xzion »

why the hell do you arrogant basterds act as if bush won a landslide vitory?
it was fucking 51 to 49%....half of the electorate voted for kerry...as a matter of fact bush won by a smaller margin then any president up for re election in many, many years

although i am upset about the "moral issues" vote, but the dems best bet would be to try to "get out the vote" and create new voters (like young people who are too fucking retarded to get up there lazy asses anf vote)

only around 33% of elegable voters in this country voted for bush...and most of this country still isnt conservative, just a lound large minority that actually goes out in vote, while many moderates and liberals dont

Bush didnt win off of old gore voters...he won off of new, 1st time voters, most of them repressed evangelicals too insecure with there sexuality to acknowlage the exsistance of another lifestyle that they dont have to have any part of

Like or hate him, Rove is one of the best, he is a genious of manipulation and distortion
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Post by Winnow »

Xzion wrote:why the hell do you arrogant basterds act as if bush won a landslide vitory?
it was fucking 51 to 49%....half of the electorate voted for kerry...as a matter of fact bush won by a smaller margin then any president up for re election in many, many years

although i am upset about the "moral issues" vote, but the dems best bet would be to try to "get out the vote" and create new voters (like young people who are too fucking retarded to get up there lazy asses anf vote)

only around 33% of elegable voters in this country voted for bush...and most of this country still isnt conservative, just a lound large minority that actually goes out in vote, while many moderates and liberals dont

Bush didnt win off of old gore voters...he won off of new, 1st time voters, most of them repressed evangelicals too insecure with there sexuality to acknowlage the exsistance of another lifestyle that they dont have to have any part of

Like or hate him, Rove is one of the best, he is a genious of manipulation and distortion
You must have read the post election whine chapter in the democrats leaked campaign manual. I've never seen so many excuses for why Kerry lost wrapped up into one post!
Xzion wrote:half of the electorate voted for kerry...
Really? Not by my calculations and every major news network in the country.

Hang onto that manual. You'll need it again November 3rd 2007 if the strategy doesn't change.
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Post by Nick »

Tanc, your right on the button mate. I would not expect a bunch of uneducated ignorants to understand the particularly ruthless and just points you have raised recently.

It is sickening that these people havent already died out from their lack of sense, I grew up under the assumption that humans were slightly more evolved than your average itchy bumgrape.

oMg yuo libeerals think Bin lADen is a hero, and iraqis are liek actually innocent, and THAT we are being led by some fantasy corryupt lier!!111 LOL conspairicy theeruists you gyus are commies!!!

Yes....very good, funny too......especially voting for Bush, that was hilarious, wtg fucking your own country beyond repair in your own lifetime! You don't actually believe keeping taxes low is going to keep the economy afloat do you? Reaganomics IS TEH WIN!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Fash »

I'm glad you're not American.

You know less than squat, outsider.
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Post by Nick »

I'm glad I'm not American too.

Open your fucking eyes Fash, then you might start posting something resembling truth or reality. A trial for you no doubt, but I got faith in you man, really.
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Post by Lohrno »

Teenybloke does troll, but at least he backs himself up somewhat.

Certainly not as bad as "I'm glad you're not American." though.

In all honesty he's probably better educated as far as our politics than most of Americans.

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Post by Nick »

Troll...wtf does that mean!
I am no fucking Searyx, for a start I think I been a member of this "community" before about 95% of you even started playing.

I think I know about 6 or 7 people on this board that have been around since the early days of ign, I.E before this place was infested with morons.

<3 Lohrno, I respect ya mate, but troll is reserved for teh retards thx.
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Post by Lohrno »

Teenybloke wrote:Troll...wtf does that mean!
A Troll is someone who consistently posts inflamatory comments usually just to piss off people and try to get more people to respond. (I guess you could call it flaming too?)

Things like this are trolling:
It is sickening that these people havent already died out from their lack of sense, I grew up under the assumption that humans were slightly more evolved than your average itchy bumgrape.

oMg yuo libeerals think Bin lADen is a hero, and iraqis are liek actually innocent, and THAT we are being led by some fantasy corryupt lier!!111 LOL conspairicy theeruists you gyus are commies!!!
You know, like trolling for fish (or retards).

I respect you too, but not for the trolling. =D

Don't feel bad though, about 80% of people do it here heh.

There are a few that don't I've done it a couple times. I'd say the best about not trolling are probably Zelaeth, Lynx, and Archeiron. To be fair I want to put a right winger there, but I can't think of any here. Maybe Sylvos since he doesn't post here.

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Last edited by Lohrno on December 9, 2004, 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Nick »

:lol:

Trolling teh yuo now!
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Post by Lohrno »

Teenybloke wrote::lol:

Trolling teh yuo now!
No no no, here is how you do it right, watch: *starts new topic*

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Post by masteen »

While I'll not say Bush is an excellent president, he is certainly far from the devil MoveOn would like you to believe. I did not vote for him, but that does not mean I bought all the bullshit the liberal shills were spewing about him. The more bullshit they put forth, the less people are likely to believe the other, real and important, issues the Democrats are dealing with.

There is also the matter of perception. Moore is STILL one of the most visible and vocal liberals in the country. Do you think that he espouses what you, as the Democratic Party, want to stand for? Until the Democrats remove the perception that middle America has of the Democrats being the party for city folk and rich Hollywood types, they will not gain ground.
"There is at least as much need to curb the cruel greed and arrogance of part of the world of capital, to curb the cruel greed and violence of part of the world of labor, as to check a cruel and unhealthy militarism in international relationships." -Theodore Roosevelt
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Post by Xzion »

masteen wrote:While I'll not say Bush is an excellent president, he is certainly far from the devil MoveOn would like you to believe. I did not vote for him, but that does not mean I bought all the bullshit the liberal shills were spewing about him. The more bullshit they put forth, the less people are likely to believe the other, real and important, issues the Democrats are dealing with.

There is also the matter of perception. Moore is STILL one of the most visible and vocal liberals in the country. Do you think that he espouses what you, as the Democratic Party, want to stand for? Until the Democrats remove the perception that middle America has of the Democrats being the party for city folk and rich Hollywood types, they will not gain ground.
If only liberals could attack falwell as well as conservatives attack moore... :?

what they needed were attack adds on falwell and labeling him as one of bushs greatest supporters, how he blamed 911 on gays and single working women etc etc
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Post by Rekaar. »

People like myself offer advice because your brand of politics is bad for the country, even if it is good for my party. Politically I really want Howard Dean to be the next chair of the DNC because you'll keep losing ground. As a citizen though, we need you to be less whacked out at your core and moderate your party views so we can have meaningful and productive discussions instead of the typical visciously counterproductive attacks waged by the left contrasted with the "you've got to be kidding me" feeling of conservatives picture we have now.
Time makes more converts than reason. - Thomas Paine
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Post by Niffoni »

masteen wrote:While I'll not say Bush is an excellent president, he is certainly far from the devil MoveOn would like you to believe.
Dude, the pricks at MoveOn could make a victim of Hitler. It's that kind of asshatery that drives people away from the Dems, the way a guy like Limbaugh does for the republicans.
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all. - Douglas Adams
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Post by Xzion »

Rekaar. wrote:People like myself offer advice because your brand of politics is bad for the country, even if it is good for my party. Politically I really want Howard Dean to be the next chair of the DNC because you'll keep losing ground. As a citizen though, we need you to be less whacked out at your core and moderate your party views so we can have meaningful and productive discussions instead of the typical visciously counterproductive attacks waged by the left contrasted with the "you've got to be kidding me" feeling of conservatives picture we have now.
ummmmm
in comparison to the rest of the civilized developed world...the american right wing is far, far, far, far more extreme then the american left wing

we dont really have a liberal manstream party, democrates are already just moderates, and republicans are extremist in most of the developed worlds eyes, look at the godamn charts
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