War Scandal II ?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 17, 2004, 3:02 am

Wait a minute, do you actually think the US went to save the Iraqi people?
Hahahahahahahahhaha

Actual pic of marine shooting ur man: warning - sorta graphic
http://cdn.digitalcity.com/aoluk_photos ... 5009990001

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » November 17, 2004, 3:08 am

noel wrote:More Iraqis have died since the invasion/occupation than would have died had we not invaded/occupied.

No, I cannot prove that, but I do know that bombs weren't raining from the sky before we invaded/occupied.

I don't know for certain whether in this period of time more Iraqis would have died under Saddam (although I guess it could be argued that with sanctions and with possible rebellion attempts after us getting so close to invading, a case could easily be made that more would have). In the long run though, if we're successful, I'm not sure how you could argue otherwise. Not to mention the fact that even if there had been a successful revolt somewhere down the road, it's undoubtable that more Iraqis would have died than have in our liberation.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 17, 2004, 3:35 am

Here's the closest thing to a concession I'll give you... Less Iraqis have died due to Sadaam's regime since the occupation.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 17, 2004, 3:36 am

Teenybloke wrote:Wait a minute, do you actually think the US went to save the Iraqi people?
Hahahahahahahahhaha

Actual pic of marine shooting ur man: warning - sorta graphic
http://cdn.digitalcity.com/aoluk_photos ... 5009990001

Glad to see the picture shows him being properly covered and that he's using the buddy system.

Mak · Post by **Mak** » November 17, 2004, 4:24 am

I've got a couple thoughts on this thread-

1. It's too bad there's so much more being said about the shooting of an insurgent than there is about Margaret Hassan, the woman that has spent 30+ years in Iraq trying to help the Iraqi people and was executed.

2. While I abhor civilian casualties- and I truly mean that- I have to consider the fact that it's the insurgents/terrorists that continually use civilians and civilian buildings to try shield themselves from retaliation that are truly to blame.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » November 17, 2004, 4:55 am

Right or wrong, that footage is gold for the insurgency and others opposed to the U.S. occupation of Iraq. I mean just look at the picture and taken in the context of being in a Mosque. A picture is worth a thousand words and that picture will affect Iraqis and other Arabs in the area in ways that no amount of talking from us will ever come close to.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 17, 2004, 5:02 am

Crav wrote:Right or wrong, that footage is gold for the insurgency and others opposed to the U.S. occupation of Iraq. I mean just look at the picture and taken in the context of being in a Mosque. A picture is worth a thousand words and that picture will affect Iraqis and other Arabs in the area in ways that no amount of talking from us will ever come close to.

I totally agree.

It's a shame that the media is so concerned with sensationalizing war that they can't take the time to police themselves.

Xanastik Fox · Post by **Xanastik Fox** » November 17, 2004, 5:07 am

after looking at the picture, i see a rifle standing against a column, and something on the floor next to him, i can see how he could have thought this was a danger.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » November 17, 2004, 5:26 am

Actually I don't think that's a rifle, might be part of whatever is covering him up. I'm pretty sure all the reports have stated he was unarmed.

You can't really blame the media for reporting, it's what they do. You can point to the wisdom of allowing reporters to follow combat troops around. I'm sure things like this happen all the time w/o much attention because no one sees it. The fact that the soldiers didn't feel it was a big deals kind of points to that. When the audio for the last part was something like "This that guy dead...I think he's still breathing," followed by "well he's dead now." You tend to get the impression that they weren't too worried about what had happened. The marine also said "He's faking he's dead", hard to say from the tape whether he felt he was faking to avoid being taken or if it was for hostile intentions.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » November 17, 2004, 6:06 am

The only thing this guy did "wrong" was do it on camera.

Xorian · Post by **Xorian** » November 17, 2004, 7:33 am

Btw i used the word "scandal" in the title, because i think it will probably create one, not because i judge the marine actions.
I think this kind of thing can happen after a day or a while of fight.

However, CNN article says that the marines asked a buddy if this guy was dead, the other shrugged and the marine walked to the iraqui and shot him in the head, saying "now he is".

If this is how it happened, i do think that is wrong

Spang · Post by **Spang** » November 17, 2004, 8:19 am

noel wrote:A bullet in the head means you still have 29 in the magazine, and it means it's as immediate a death as is possible. You're still thinking in terms of, 'murder is bad', not in terms of, 'I want to live'.

*pointless, off-topic response*

chances are there'd be less ammo in the magazine. you don't wanna fill up a 30 round magazine with the full 30 rounds. if you do so your chances of having a weapons malfunction increase.

now back to the show already in progress...

Seebs · Post by **Seebs** » November 17, 2004, 1:21 pm

I am disappointed in the shitty camera angle. Doesn;t the thing have a zoom.

I can almost see Ahghmed cuddleing with 72 virgins as the trigger is pulled ... look close. I see Catherine Manheim and Janet Reno in veils and plush pillows surrounding a fully loaded Hookah!!

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » November 17, 2004, 2:31 pm

Spang wrote:chances are there'd be less ammo in the magazine. you don't wanna fill up a 30 round magazine with the full 30 rounds. if you do so your chances of having a weapons malfunction increase.

This was actually only an issue with the 20-round magazine springs, which was solved by only putting 17-18 rounds in each magazine. The problem never existed in the 30-round magazine, and I never saw a full 30-round magazine ever malfunction.

To say something on-topic:

If I had a choice to make between a possiblility of being wounded or killed (ANY possibility, no matter how subjective) or committing what some may view as a war crime, well then I'm committing a war crime.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » November 17, 2004, 4:57 pm

noel wrote:More Iraqis have died since the invasion/occupation than would have died had we not invaded/occupied.

No, I cannot prove that, but I do know that bombs weren't raining from the sky before we invaded/occupied.

Well you should be able to prove it before you claim something that no one else has =p

Badabidi · Post by **Badabidi** » November 17, 2004, 5:55 pm

He probably capped the insurgent after the cameraman told him it'd be too politically incorrect to saw his head off

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » November 17, 2004, 6:32 pm

I wish the US hadn't invaded Iraq.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » November 17, 2004, 6:38 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:I wish the US hadn't invaded Iraq.

I wish I could give myself oral sex.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » November 17, 2004, 6:47 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Dregor Thule wrote:I wish the US hadn't invaded Iraq.
I wish I could give myself oral sex.

I wish you could give yourself oral sex too!

Fash · Post by **Fash** » November 17, 2004, 9:18 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:I wish the US hadn't invaded Iraq.

I wish you would go over and try and stop them.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » November 18, 2004, 12:34 pm

I happen to agree with Noel on this one. A soldier under fire in a hostile environment, where wounded and white flags mean nothing, is going to make a decision to protect his own life and that of his comrades.

To sit at home and criticize his decision is foolish. Also to try and understand his mind set when he pulled the trigger by watching a video is equally foolish.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 18, 2004, 12:44 pm

vn_Tanc wrote:The only thing this guy did "wrong" was do it on camera.

exactly.

you can not overstate the fact that the day before members of that unit were killed and injured by a man faking to be dead who set off a bomb.

plus there is a lot of grey area, when your job is to kill people - and make no mistake about it, that is this Marine's job - in an urban combat environment there are going to be a lot of cases where there are ambiguous circumstances as to whether or not it is justifiable to pull the trigger.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » November 26, 2004, 11:20 am

Tenny's little gem:

"Plus, the "insurgents" actually have a legitimate reason for being there."

Iraq is not their country and before you pull the "They are fighting for their fellow muslim card" I call bullshit on that one, these guys would kill their brother for a nice piece of camel ass.

So do us all a favor and go to a football game sit on the front row right by the fence and wait for the crowd to crush the life out of you from your oh so civilized country.

Sunday Bloody Sunday FuckTard!!!!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 26, 2004, 12:03 pm

Yeah because all insurgents are from other countries, and all American soldiers are Iraqis in disguise with a right to be there!

You should sue your parents Cartalas. Bet you can get some money for the lobotomy they gave you.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » November 26, 2004, 2:23 pm

Hesten wrote:
Animalor wrote:Well with shit like....
About a block away, a Marine was killed and five others wounded by a booby-trapped body they found in a house after a shootout with insurgents.
.... happening, I can understand why they'd shoot anything that moved.
So youre also in favor of killing all kids and woman going near soldiers with gifts, in case they could be booby trapped?

Wow, you really went way off the deep end on this one. How did you go from booby trapped bodies to women and children bearing gifts?

Just goes to show you how hard it is to discuss/debate with people that have a preconceived view or hidden agenda.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » November 26, 2004, 2:30 pm

Teenybloke wrote:Now I see your point Noel.

However, it's on camera for all to see and although and the reason it is highlighted is even greater than the following:

Art. 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions:

(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria.

To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
The war is very obviously not over, no matter whether Bush claims it has (like ages ago....). We are meant to be civilized. These are yet more war crimes.

This is what you came to prevent. Hypocrisy

Oh and yeah your gradually accumulating a good number of dead innocents through this very bullshit.

Notice it's always US soldiers. Coincidence? Why do you so vehemently defend this action Noel?

Those laws as well as those of the Geneva Convention apply to uniformed military/armed forces representing a country...not to insurgents/terrorists.

Since you live in a perfect world where people and ideologies do not clash..where wars are fought with the precision of a mathematical equation and never deviate from a finite set of rules...why don't you head to Iraq and put flowers in the barrels of our rifles and paint daisies and peace symbols on the IED's.

Maybe you can hold a very civilized summit and explain to the coalition forces that it doesn't matter if a 16 year old kid straps explosives to his body to kill as many "infidels" as he can...or if Wackjob_005 cuts the head off of a woman that lived and worked in Iraq for 25 years to better the condition of the Iraqi people.

You don't have to agree on the politics that led up to making the decision to go into Iraq...but as much as I regard life and find butchery, murder, death and destruction deplorable I am not going to judge the actions of a soldier that was shot in the face the day before...saw his comrades die...and who knows what other horrors he saw. If I were in that soldier's shoes and saw bodies of terrorists lying inside a mosque that they were using as a base to launch their attacks...and I thought one of them might be alive still...I wouldn't have hesitated in sending him to see his god before he had the chance to send me to see mine. Perhaps you are right though Teeny...you could have handed that wounded terrorist a flower and everything would have been right in the world again.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 26, 2004, 4:14 pm

I love how you justify everything by calling them terrorists. Way to go!

That said, your description of how he reacted could be turned around to be used for why insurgents fight against your invading military the way they do. Yet I don't see you defending them.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 26, 2004, 5:16 pm

In response to Cartalas.

Sunday bloody Sunday fucktard? What the fuck has that got to do with me anyway. I am no religion, so the only people you are laughing at are the innocent catholics who died that day.

Plus it is like me saying Happy 9/11........except that you might actually give a shit.

You should stop fisting yourself so much Cart, your knuckles are hitting your brains these days, that is when you know when to stop.

Moonwynd, your assertion that I would have handed the guy a flower is hilarious, I honestly do not think I have met a wittier remark in all my days.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » November 26, 2004, 10:13 pm

Teenybloke wrote:In response to Cartalas.

Sunday bloody Sunday fucktard? What the fuck has that got to do with me anyway. I am no religion, so the only people you are laughing at are the innocent catholics who died that day.

Plus it is like me saying Happy 9/11........except that you might actually give a shit.

You should stop fisting yourself so much Cart, your knuckles are hitting your brains these days, that is when you know when to stop.

Moonwynd, your assertion that I would have handed the guy a flower is hilarious, I honestly do not think I have met a wittier remark in all my days.

"You should stop fisting yourself so much Cart, your knuckles are hitting your brains these days, that is when you know when to stop. "

Is this from experience? my little third world assclown.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 27, 2004, 9:32 am

Last time I checked Ireland was a first world country.

With slightly more liberal views than fascist America.

Your assumption that it is a thrid world country does nothing more than emphasise the flaws of the US "education" system and your own lack of personal craving for finding out anything outside your stupid fat head.

I enjoy these little Irish insults, mainly because I don't view myself in the same bullshit patriotic way that you fuckheads do, and believe me, I can guarantee there is a lot more

for the Irish than the Americans, so work away, if it makes you feel better, you are only showing everyone (once again) how inept you are using your brain.

And no, the fisting is not from personal experience, it's not the first time I have seen you do it Cart, I have Pics!

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 27, 2004, 10:08 am

http://nick1.3h.com/Cart.GIF

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » November 27, 2004, 10:32 am

Teenybloke wrote:http://nick1.3h.com/Cart.GIF

Well I see the dumbass can not even link a pic !
Im still trying to figure out why you think Ireland is a 1st world country?

They have no military unless you consider the 9th Rock throwing division their economic importance to the world is about as important as Ethiopia right now. I mean come on Tenny if your little rock in the middle of the sea sunk would anyone even notice? What do you export? Sheep? I dont think so that would be like shipping out your mother, daughter and wife all in one trailer.

Xorian · Post by **Xorian** » November 27, 2004, 10:50 am

But Ireland has Guiness !

edit:typo !

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 27, 2004, 11:14 am

Anyone else noticing the blind racism?

At least my insults are based on fact!

See, you still are not grasping this. I couldn't give a shit about Ireland, Irelands economic importance, Irelands exports or whatever....Why? It is completely irrelevant!

To me, to you, to everyone!

I would class a first world country as one where there is irrigation/sewers/phoneinternetlines/hospitals/courts/police stations/firestations/plenty of well paid jobs (Hi, the average Northern Irishman earns more than the average American !!!!!!)/Democratic government/Airports/Seaports/Etc .......

All of which Ireland has. Easily.

There are less people living below the poverty line relative to America. There is less gun crime. There is less overall crime. All relative to the US.

Also, this shithole that I live in (which I admit to, and have never made a secret of) tends to keep it's problems to itself, or at least in the UK, whilst the US gurns endlessly wah wah we justifiably got attacked after ignoring the bullshit our governments have been letting go on behind our backs, please back us in an illegitimate war in Iraq!

Where is your leg to stand on Cart? Is it up your ass with your hand?

AlanhaStarbreeze · Post by **AlanhaStarbreeze** » November 27, 2004, 11:40 am

Im with Noel. The marine did everything he should have done. Id have put an extra one in him.

Ive seen video of insurgents sitting in a mosque firing rpg's from the marinets at soldiers who could not fire back. Ive seen video of insurgents waving white flags from mosques only to ambush soldiers and kill soldiers.

Have you held a friend in your arms as he's bleeding out? Those guys live and die with each other and for each other. They will move heaven and earth for each other. While the average American citizen will watch as some girl is stuffed into a trunk a walmart.

American's are supposed to follow the Generva Conventions, we are supposed to provide .. food, shelter, clothing, medical care. We are also forbidden from using schools, churches, hospitals in combat. We cannot attack medical convoys, we cannot attack unarmed civilians.

But, the second that civilan takes to arms im putting him down. Hes now a combatant. These spineless fucks use woman, children, hospitals, mosques, and everything else we train not to use against us. We dont booby trap our own for the enemy. Every soldier goes home from the field.

You average Joe go out there, step into these marines shoes for a day in Fallujah, go out there knowing they killed many of your brothers in arms, know they will break every common law of war, know they will feign dead only to gernade you. Tell me you wouldnt kill the enemy if he was *injured* Fuck that.

I wish you could goto Landstuhl Medical hospital and see the wounded Marines. See the marines with so much shrapnel in them, see the marines with missing limbs, scarred forever. I have, its horrible -- but those, boys, men, soldiers feel guilty as hell because they are not fighting beside their friends. Hate the Machine that caused the war not us peons who have to fight it.

I dont agree with the war but i help support the war every day i goto work and report for duty.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 27, 2004, 12:02 pm

Please tell me how many innocent unarmed people died in Fallujah?

It is in the thousands btw.

Perspective please.

Atokal · Post by **Atokal** » November 27, 2004, 12:37 pm

Teenybloke wrote:Please tell me how many innocent unarmed people died in Fallujah?

It is in the thousands btw.

Perspective please.

Shut the fuck up PLEASE. Go be an insurgent. Or start another Terrorist organization that could only be more successful than the IRA. Better yet start a placard carrying protest against the USA and march across the Emerald Isle gaining support as you go. Post Picts, Have fun but please shut the fuck up.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » November 27, 2004, 2:23 pm

Teenybloke wrote:Please tell me how many innocent unarmed people died in Fallujah?

It is in the thousands btw.

Perspective please.

Please tell me how many innocent unarmed people died under Saddam?

It is in the hundreds of thousands btw.

Perspective please.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 27, 2004, 4:16 pm

Stop trying to sell this as a humanitarian intervention, Jesus. NO ONE IS BUYING IT.

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 27, 2004, 4:25 pm

OMG STOP POINTING OUT WAR CRIMES AND MASS MURDER TEENY YOU IRISH FAGGEOT LOL I BET YUO OONLY DRINK GUINESS AND SHAG LEPRECHAUNS!!!!

Wow, the intelligence of this board really has gone down since the early days.
Atokal, I have already been to protests (along with fundraising events) Will that satisfy your "point"? I actually do try and make a positive difference.
Brotha, read Zealath's post. you are not completely retarded so if you become aware of the reality there may still be some hope.

Plus given that you fuckheads have about half an 0.00000001% of a respect between the two of you, I will post wherever, whenever and whatever I please (given the concept of free speech and all!) and if it pisses your ignorant heads off, all the better.

Kindly go shit on yourselves/eachother.

Edit: How come Atokal isnt on ignore like usual? hm....

Neroon · Post by **Neroon** » November 27, 2004, 6:29 pm

Whoa whoa. What's wrong with a gnome shagging a leprechaun? Have you *seen* a female leprechaun sir?

Nick · Post by **Nick** » November 27, 2004, 6:35 pm

All the time sir! They tend to run around harassing the male leprechauns (stealing their pots of gold, kissing their blarney stones!). Perhaps sir would liek a meeting with one of the islands finest?

(Hint - Surprise her with your witty craic)

........