The true Thanksgiving story - from the Indian point of view

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » November 25, 2004, 11:33 am

Its funnny how everyone has a different recollection of the events that took place. I learn about the conquistadors being war mongering assholes who killed, deceived raped and raided Indians and there strongholds in the name of the Spanish empire. Then I asked my family about the history im told they were good people who loved life, that came to this country to expand there cultural values and have sex with all the Indians they can, because Spanish people are horney basterds, the British only took out our armada because our ships were loaded with gold, women and alcohol, and the brits just had a bunch of smelly sausagefests on there ships. Ask a brit about the American revolution, an entirely new story will come out of that.
In history there is rarely a right or wrong, good or bad, yet in our culture we always have to identifyt he “good guys” and the “bad guys”

The natives do make a great point, and I would be the first to bring up that the pilgrims were stupid ulta religious assholes who were kicked out of England for being close minded bigots (imagine an entire culture of jerry falwells x2, I would want those assholes out of my country as well...hell look at them now, there country is much more socially advanced then ours and these godamn jerry falwells are running our government) , but that does not mean that the natives are not partially at fault. Im sure the natives at one point in this story scalped a few pilgrims or ate one or two white children for ceremonial purposes, but of course they wont bring this up and do as we do by trying to portray themselves as the ever righteous crusaders of there time.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » November 25, 2004, 11:58 am

Teeny: You would be correct in part. It is not the UN's responsibility to allow other countries to lie nor are they wrong for another country TO lie, but they are supposed to reign in countries who are doing something wrong. They didn't. If it was all that wrong, why didn't they do so?

Everyone else: I have no direct controll over the actions of any elected person. I can't walk into the Oval Office and say "no, don't do this." I also feel that the war in iraq is and was justafiable - a sentiment not accepted on these boards, but I really don't care. I don't feel that war is a good thing, but it is sometimes a necessary thing.

I still fail to see the grasp between ethnocide and what we're doing in Iraq. We're not settling and we're not eradicating them, we're simply changing their government and doing a few others things that may or may not be illegal, depending on who you listen to.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » November 25, 2004, 11:59 am

Akaran_D wrote:Teeny: You would be correct in part. It is not the UN's responsibility to allow other countries to lie nor are they wrong for another country TO lie, but they are supposed to reign in countries who are doing something wrong. They didn't. If it was all that wrong, why didn't they do so?

Everyone else: I have no direct controll over the actions of any elected person. I can't walk into the Oval Office and say "no, don't do this." I also feel that the war in iraq is and was justafiable - a sentiment not accepted on these boards, but I really don't care. I don't feel that war is a good thing, but it is sometimes a necessary thing.

I still fail to see the grasp between ethnocide and what we're doing in Iraq. We're not settling and we're not eradicating them, we're simply changing their government and doing a few others things that may or may not be illegal, depending on who you listen to.

You could have voted to kick his ass out of office, but essentially by voting for the man, on paper you embrace every single action he is responsible for as president

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » November 25, 2004, 12:06 pm

Yeah, because it's a shame we can't vote directy for each and every thing the president has done.
I liked more things about Bush than I did Kerry, by a narrow margin. Two justifiable wars didn't bother me all that much. Their execution is another story entirely.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · November 25, 2004, 12:25 pm

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » November 25, 2004, 12:57 pm

Xzion wrote:You could have voted to kick his ass out of office, but essentially by voting for the man, on paper you embrace every single
action he is responsible for as president

This is silly, by no means does everyone that voted for Bush embrace everything that he did. They just felt of the choices they had, he would be the better choice. They may have been right or they may have been wrong in that choice, but it certainly doesn't indicate that they approve of everything he did.

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » November 25, 2004, 1:06 pm

Thank you, Chmee.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » November 25, 2004, 1:52 pm

Couple things...

If you think we moved past the point where the Indians are no longer persecuted and killed and stepped onafter our initial slaughter, you know absolutely nothing about wounded knee and AIM and what happened in the 70's and still goes on today.

Second, if you can't see the irony that the last generation to openly and directly screw the Indians (read the blue hairs) now goes broke in casinos run by the very people they shoved onto shit land and made live in total squallor then you should really take a better look, that shit is funny!

lastly

"Treat the earth well: it was not given to you by your parents, it was loaned to you by your children. We do not inherit the Earth from our Ancestors, we borrow it from our Children."

Chief Joseph, Nez Perce

"If the white man wants to live in peace with the Indian, he can live in
peace.....Treat all men alike. Give them all the same law. Give them all an
even chance to live and grow. All men were made by the same Great Spirit
Chief. They are all brothers. The Earth is the mother of all people, and all
people should have equal rights upon it.......Let me be a free man, free to
travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade....where I choose my own
teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to think and talk
and act for myself, and I will obey every law, or submit to the penalty."

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » November 25, 2004, 1:56 pm

No Pherr, I know. I think it's atrocious. Unfortunately, I don't know of a single politican trying or even CARING enough to do differently or to make things right.

Seriously.. I don't. I wish there was.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 25, 2004, 3:15 pm

This is silly, by no means does everyone that voted for Bush embrace everything that he did. They just felt of the choices they had, he would be the better choice. They may have been right or they may have been wrong in that choice, but it certainly doesn't indicate that they approve of everything he did.

All that is true, but you can't bitch and whine about not having a say. You do. You can control their actions as well. However, by voting for them you DO give them an approval wether you like it or not.

Spang · Post by **Spang** » November 25, 2004, 4:41 pm

unless you live in a state like TN. had i voted in this election it would have meant nothing. there are too many Bush supporters. i would have voted for bush more than likely.

in fact, with the electoral college your vote doesn't truly count. just ask Gore.

Fairweather Pure · Post by **Fairweather Pure** » November 25, 2004, 5:39 pm

Yes. We lied, we stole, we robbed graves, we murdered men, women, children, and brought untold of diseases that ravaged the people of the land while we comitted horrific acts of rape, slaughter, and just about every other crime you can name.

What' this "we" shit? I didn't do jack.

I could really give a fuck less if 300 years ago white people killed indians or whatever. To me, it was just people killing people. I don't lend myself to one race/culture over the other. I do not have "white man's guilt", but I do feel guilt for humanity at times.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » November 25, 2004, 6:45 pm

Bullshit! I know you travelled back in time and raped their women and children Fairweather! Stop denying it!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » November 25, 2004, 7:16 pm

Your vote count to the point that you shove wether you support or is against. Even if you are the only vote against in a county you still showed that you are unhappy.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 25, 2004, 8:07 pm

Chmee wrote:
Xzion wrote:You could have voted to kick his ass out of office, but essentially by voting for the man, on paper you embrace every single
action he is responsible for as president
This is silly, by no means does everyone that voted for Bush embrace everything that he did. They just felt of the choices they had, he would be the better choice. They may have been right or they may have been wrong in that choice, but it certainly doesn't indicate that they approve of everything he did.

Bullshit. You can't gloss it over with the "everything" argument. The most important thing he did was march into the middle east and kill thousands of arabs. You voted for him, you voted to approve that after the fact. It's a lot easier to hold you responsible for his actions when you give him a second term.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » November 25, 2004, 8:57 pm

Zaelath wrote:
Chmee wrote:
Xzion wrote:You could have voted to kick his ass out of office, but essentially by voting for the man, on paper you embrace every single
action he is responsible for as president
This is silly, by no means does everyone that voted for Bush embrace everything that he did. They just felt of the choices they had, he would be the better choice. They may have been right or they may have been wrong in that choice, but it certainly doesn't indicate that they approve of everything he did.
Bullshit. You can't gloss it over with the "everything" argument. The most important thing he did was march into the middle east and kill thousands of arabs. You voted for him, you voted to approve that after the fact. It's a lot easier to hold you responsible for his actions when you give him a second term.

I didn't vote for him. But yes I can make the "everything" argument because my whole post was responding to xzion's assertion that voting for him meant that you embraced everything he did. Which is as I stated before, ridiculous.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » November 25, 2004, 11:07 pm

Fairweather Pure wrote:
Yes. We lied, we stole, we robbed graves, we murdered men, women, children, and brought untold of diseases that ravaged the people of the land while we comitted horrific acts of rape, slaughter, and just about every other crime you can name.
What' this "we" shit? I didn't do jack. I could really give a fuck less if 300 years ago white people killed indians or whatever. To me, it was just people killing people. I don't lend myself to one race/culture over the other. I do not have "white man's guilt", but I do feel guilt for humanity at times.

300 or 30?

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » November 26, 2004, 12:26 am

Chmee wrote:
Zaelath wrote:
Chmee wrote:
Xzion wrote:You could have voted to kick his ass out of office, but essentially by voting for the man, on paper you embrace every single
action he is responsible for as president
This is silly, by no means does everyone that voted for Bush embrace everything that he did. They just felt of the choices they had, he would be the better choice. They may have been right or they may have been wrong in that choice, but it certainly doesn't indicate that they approve of everything he did.
Bullshit. You can't gloss it over with the "everything" argument. The most important thing he did was march into the middle east and kill thousands of arabs. You voted for him, you voted to approve that after the fact. It's a lot easier to hold you responsible for his actions when you give him a second term.
I didn't vote for him. But yes I can make the "everything" argument because my whole post was responding to xzion's assertion that voting for him meant that you embraced everything he did. Which is as I stated before, ridiculous.

of course noone agrees with everything he did, i said ON PAPER it just shows an approval of all of his actions and his job in office, your just a number on a peice of paper labeled "bush votes" and you, being a number on that sheet of paper, more then likely support everything he has done
Of course this goes for any politician who is up for re-election

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 26, 2004, 1:41 am

Chmee wrote: I didn't vote for him. But yes I can make the "everything" argument because my whole post was responding to xzion's assertion that voting for him meant that you embraced everything he did. Which is as I stated before, ridiculous.

I missed out an "if", "If you voted for him..", regardless.. the "everything" argument is nit-picking. I can understand for example how you can be pro-choice and vote for Bush, I can't understand how you can be anti the war in Iraq and vote for Bush and, more to the point, arabs won't either. The American people painted a big target on their ass and mooned the middle east, I just hope your defense against terrorism works.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 26, 2004, 4:00 am

Cracc wrote:Dont we have an native american on these boards i thought? Kilmoll? correct me if i am wrong please. But it would be intressting to hear his viewpoint on the whole thing.

The African Ant mating ritual dance!

Cracc · Post by **Cracc** » November 26, 2004, 1:28 pm

You got a serious fetisch for my avatars winnow