Creationism Versus Evolution

[Akaran_D]

We have the option to do something different, the capacitity, to override our intiial choices. However, it is something we as a species rarely - if ever - do, and when we do, it is because of extranous circumstances, events we percieve as mistakes, et al.

God knows all the choices. God knows all the things that will happen if we do whatever we do for everyone that does. He also knows what choices we will eventually make because of our lives.


As to your question:
Why do you not feel like doing it now?
Keep in mind, it may not be one thing, it may not be a dozen things, it could be hundreds of thousands of things that have occured to you so insigificantly minor that you never even gave it a thought. A mood you were in on a particular day, a dream you had that you were only able to remember a fragment of. A view of society can even cause you to do or not do certain things.

[archeiron]

We have options to do anything we want.
I could go out and get drunk tonight, but I won't /because of something that happened to me a year ago.
Atokal could suddenly become the most popular poster on the boards but he won't /because of something he's done or said in the past.

We really have no choices in life because everything we're ever going to do or have done is based on what has happened to every one of us up to that point in our lives when we make a decision.

Free will and fate can peacefully coexist. So long as there are a finite number of options in any situation involving choice with no predetermined outcome, then free will can be said to exist. The preconditions for fate only assign probabilities to the resolution of those choices, determine the number of options available, and the direction that those decisions lead.

In other words, if I walk down a path in the woods and there are forks in the path that I may choose to follow, then I can said to have free will. Fate could be described as being the that which is responsible for laying those paths in the woods and determining the destination of each path. Fate sets out the paths that I may follow and their destinations, while free will is an individual's right to choose from amogst the forks that are presented to them along each path that they walk.

All the events that have transpired in the past determine what fork one reaches at each moment of "the present", while colouring one's personality to having a predisposition to a particular choice. However, this does not necessarily negate free will. Spontaneous, uncharacteristic actions could be an easily understandable expression of this.

[Akaran_D]

exactly!

[Lynks]

Ok, so lets say God is omnipotent and he created us for a reason, he would then know the answer for that reason and doesn't really need us anymore making our lives meaningless.

Or, he created us for no reason, wich just makes our live meaningless just the same.

Or option 3, God is not omnipotent and is in it for the ride to see where this motherfucker is going.

[Kaldaur]

Another possibility is that God created us with a purpose, but left it up to us. In other words, a hope for humanity to have a course of action, but she will leave it up to us to choose. Your argument is compelling Lynks. What IS the point if everything is predetermined? Nothing. So why would an omnipotent being do something that is pointless. Also, if the common conception that god is a benovolent being is going to hold ground, then fate is impossible. Otherwise, a truly good god would not allow for suicide, murder, the like. It's my belief that if there is a God up there (which I don't claim to know for a fact one way or the other) I'd like to think that she shakes her head once and awhile, but still lets humanity choose its own course.

[Rekaar.]

Has it been mentioned already that a healthy mix of theories is a good thing in the classroom?

[Rivera Bladestrike]

Or the most plausible option:

God didn't create us, and we were created through a natural turn of events occuring over billions of years. The definition of god was created over 6000 years ago at the birth of civilization in the fertile cresent beginning with the Sumerians. Religion was born out of the wonder of the unknown and leaders used it to control thoughts and behaviors of its citizens. The threat of an all powerful being was far more convincing than anything in this world. Naturally, to satisfy man's ego, humans became the chosen species of you know, all the billions of species that have been on this earth since the beginning of life. Even moreso, many leaders from Egypt through England even had Kings, Pharoahs, Popes, all claiming direct connection to this god, in order to obtain more power and influence. Those two magic words seem to ring true throughout man's history, don't they? Many of these leaders were terrible murderers, and if you think "oh those guys were crazy", well what makes us think that the original bible writers weren't crazy. Not all people with voices in their heads kill people you know, some write books.

The idea of religion was then past to other tribes who shaped and formed religion to their culture. Through wars and deaths of civilizations, previously religions were either enveloped or destroyed and considered myth. Stories were told by word of mouth until the Egyptian and Greek civilizations where papyrus was created and the written word was created. Books became the first method of reaching large scale audiences and in the Roman Empire's class difference religions such as Christianity emerged with its Bible. It declared its religion to be christianity and destroyed its former religion, which was passed onto the barbarian tribes in Europe and eventually spread through all forms of mass communication to this point where we are now.

What sounds more realistic, logical and oh wait -- historically documented.

[Rekaar.]

You are an empty, empty guy. Stop attacking the faith of others to make yuor lack of substance more acceptable.

[Jice Virago]

Translation: I cannot defend anything I believe in, logically, so poopie on you!

[Hesten]

You are an empty, empty guy. Stop attacking the faith of others to make yuor lack of substance more acceptable.

Isnt the problem here that others are trying to impose their faith in the school system, not the poor christians being tormented again?

[Drolgin Steingrinder]

All I can say is that if God exists (and I remain extremely doubtful) then he's a sadistic bastard and the first thing I'm going to do when I meet him is kick him in the shin for being such a dick.

[Adex_Xeda]

Free will is time dependant. Time is linked to space. Energy and matter set different from each other based upon their relation to time.

If God created the universe, he would have to have created time. If time is a creation, then God must be abstracted from time.

If God is abstracted from time, then it is very easy to know everything that will happen from the creation.

I figure we are coexistant throughout all points of time. Right now, me as a kid, and me as a old man exist. I am for some reason allowed to experience my life one tick and tock at a time. From my locked time reference I have full freedom to make free will decisions.

From God's abstracted position he sees everything I have done or will do at a glance. He knows my choices, but allows me the freedom to make those choices.

Why does God bother if he knows everything? I say he has a purpose for constructing us.

Why would a guy build a kitchen table if he already knows what it will look like before he's finished constructing it? He does it because he has a purpose for that table. Likewise with God.

[Lynks]

That table analogy is flawed. If God create us for an answer, then he already knows it. If God create us for a purpose, why couldn't he just create the end result instead.

A better analogy would be, why build a kitchen table if you know you will not be using it.

[Sionistic]

God is the producer of a reality show, he threw in reaction prone humans in a changing environment, and sits back to watch the show It like you know this contestant and that contestant are gonna fuck eventually, but its just so much funner to see it happen.

[Tenuvil]

If God or who/whatever created us exists outside of the four dimensional spacetime continuum as we perceive it, I would have to assume that He cares as much for each individual being as much as we care for bacteria.

It's a conceit to assume that God loves you.

[Rivera Bladestrike]

You are an empty, empty guy. Stop attacking the faith of others to make yuor lack of substance more acceptable.

Its more like I have a fun and fruitful life with many friends, but I don't waste my time living through the ideas created two thousand years ago. Ideas that have been refined through time by power hungry and mind controlling leaders. Each day is lived knowing this is all I have and I have to make the best of it. I don't need prayers and "God" to give me a sense of purpose, I create it on my own. I believe in the miracle that is the human body and I believe it has endless capabilities.

But when people come here to teach the youth something thats completely illogical, I get upset. Because it just continues the conditioning and mind control of organized religion onto a new generation. So we'll have a whole new generation of people like you who mindlessly and illogically argue for a book written by dead men thousands of years ago in favor of science.

[Seebs]

My mother and father made me. their parents made them, and their parents made them.

Eventually we get to parents that were too stupid to catalog their existence, but they did exist since I'm here.

Evolution? Yes there is evolution, no doubt about it. 80 years ago the average height was 5-7 and weight around 150, speaking solely about the USA btw. Think that still stands? Been in a seat on an airplane recently? We are changing, evolving if you will.

Our life exectency is getting larger and larger while infant mortality is miniscule. In 80 years we will have evolved into something else. More long lived, healthier (hopefully) and better designed for technology.

I also think that people will be killed at age 30.

[archeiron]

My mother and father made me. their parents made them, and their parents made them.

Eventually we get to parents that were too stupid to catalog their existence, but they did exist since I'm here.

Evolution? Yes there is evolution, no doubt about it. 80 years ago the average height was 5-7 and weight around 150, speaking solely about the USA btw. Think that still stands? Been in a seat on an airplane recently? We are changing, evolving if you will.

Our life exectency is getting larger and larger while infant mortality is miniscule. In 80 years we will have evolved into something else. More long lived, healthier (hopefully) and better designed for technology.

I also think that people will be killed at age 30.

Unforunately, increased natural life expentancy (ignoring premature mortality rates) are not a result of "the theory of evolution". This is a result of improved health care, sanitation, and nutrition. Height follows roughly the same rules.

Humans have not experienced global natural selection from predators in thousands of years (e.g. bulldog bears in Alaska, speckled lions in Europe, sabertooth tigers in the Americas, macro-fauna predators in Asia and Australia). The last massive selection by disease was the Black Death, if I am not mistaken. The last environmental natural selection was probably the settling of the American West, where many weaker people succombed to the harsh environment.

Your sneaky use of the meaning of the word evolution is not lost on me, but it has very little to do with the topic of the "theory of evolution".

[Sionistic]

not talking about theory of evolution, regular evolution or "survival of the fittest" is still happening to this day. Not from physical predators but others, like financial and spiritual. (A guy with a successful career is more likely to find a woman and a good life, pass on the seed)

[archeiron]

not talking about theory of evolution, regular evolution or "survival of the fittest" is still happening to this day. Not from physical predators but others, like financial and spiritual. (A guy with a successful career is more likely to find a woman and a good life, pass on the seed)

If that were true, then poor people wouldn't be breeding.

And there is no selection for particular traits amongst humans on that scale.

[Marbus]

Its more like I have a fun and fruitful life with many friends, but I don't waste my time living through the ideas created two thousand years ago. Ideas that have been refined through time by power hungry and mind controlling leaders. Each day is lived knowing this is all I have and I have to make the best of it. I don't need prayers and "God" to give me a sense of purpose, I create it on my own. I believe in the miracle that is the human body and I believe it has endless capabilities.

Rivera you act like other people don't live this way just because they have faith in a higher power, that's far far from the truth. Many Christians DO live this way. If I had to sum up my understanding of the NT it would be "fear not." Sure there are many ways to interpert the scripture but I can promise you that many of the ideas you are living through were created or understood by those men... 2000-6000 years ago.

I have a sense of purpose regardless of my faith, but one which is also supported by my faith. From a purely Humanistic standpoint what should be the "meaning of life?" How best can we grow as a species? We take care of one another... which to me parallels "love they neighbor." From the Genesis story with Cain and Able throughout the NT the overall theme is to take care of one other. The Bible, even from a non-religious, is worth reading and understanding from a Historical perspective as their are many insights into our Humanity.

In regards to the original quesiton many of you probably already know I don't believe we should take a literal interpertation of the Bible but rather read It and let God speak to you through it. IMHO you can not take the Bible, especially the OT literally if you have any intelligence whatsoever, there are just too many contridictions. Someone brought it up earlier but about Cain and Able, remember Able was killed and Cain sent away. Wherever he went he got marrired though because later we read about the Cainnites right? So there were obviously other people besides "Adam and Eve" even if they did live for hundreds of years and had many children that weren't mentioned in the Bible. Genesis also speaks of the "sons of God" who married the "daughters of men." This sounds more like Tolkien's Silmarillion than the rest of the Bible...

My understanding of Genesis is that it's a good way to explain a complex chain of events to people with little or no scientific understanding. The origin of species better explains that to those with greater understanding but still dosen't explain everything. Eventually I hope to understand it all, after I move from this life into the next. Until then I believe we are to keep working, studying and doing our best to understand our relationship to God, each other and the world around us. There is no fear in that, there is no childish "I can't have a good time" there is only desire to grow beyond.

Marb

[Rivera Bladestrike]

I am perfectly fine with the bible's existance and it being read for anyone that needs that kind of thing, but I certainly don't want it taught in schools as if it were fact. A literal teaching of the bible in schools is laughable, teach it at home if you want but theres no way I want my family being taught by some religious freak teacher and brainwashing my children. Thats my job.

The bible stands a purpose to teach morals, but I have confidence that I can do that on my own. Because I learned morals on my own as it is... I grew up in a christian family with extremely religious grandparents, but my parents did not force it on me that much. I went to sunday school and got communion and all, but while my mind was still impressionable, it wasn't pressed on me. Now I have a very logical and calculating personality and religion just doesn't add up no matter what way someone puts a spin on it to reassure themselves.

[Voronwë]

Entropy is not violated by any biological process. ONly somebody who does not understand the second law of thermodynamics would suggest otherwise.

If it could be violated, it wouldnt be a Law.

there is not one biochemical reaction that violates this law. There is not one process in any organism that violates this law.

The way that persons use this argument in defense of "Intelligent Design" is to look at thermodynamics on the "macro-level", and misinterpret the notion that Entropy must proceed as meaning that complexity cannot exist.

Most biological processes operate at around 55% efficiency if I recall correctly, which means they are completely in line with the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Genetic homogeny across species is often misunderstood as well. Some meaning can be inferred from pure code identity across species, but it is A LOT more complicated than that. Because there are 1% differences, that sounds like not much. But when you are talking about millions of genes, it is. And persons who know about genetics (i'm not an expert), know that it isnt so much that you have to have different genes to make different animals, it is how you use those genes at what times and at what levels in development. Regulation of gene expression is a critical component of what makes species different, and it probably has a lot to do with evolution.

[Marbus]

Rivera, I agree with you 100% on teaching it in schools. I too was brough up in a pretty religious family but things weren't forced on me. I spent many years in discovery and understanding my faith and I still have many years to go. However that is my faith and for me to teach to my children as they learn how to reason and understand, NOT for some zealot in a school system.

Marb

[Adex_Xeda]

No one here disputes that entropy is always increasing. Everything decays. Anytime you sense an increase of order (such as life), it was at the expense of a greater disorder.

If everything is falling down hill and becoming more disorderly, what set things in high order to begin with? It would have to be something very powerful and abstracted from the laws of our physical universe.

The universe is like clock powered by a wind up spring. We are now able to notice that the spring in our clock is always unwinding. It is natural to ask who or what titanic, extra universal force wound the clock.

That table analogy is flawed. If God create us for an answer, then he already knows it. If God create us for a purpose, why couldn't he just create the end result instead.

A better analogy would be, why build a kitchen table if you know you will not be using it.

You perspective is hampered by a time reference. The act of "creation" is a time reference.

If God create us for a purpose, why couldn't he just create the end result instead?

Again step back from the "created" idea of time. By making us, he did in essense create the end result automatically. From God's abstracted time perspective, our end, beginning and midpoints are all coexistant. Our existance is independant of time. Our perception of our existance, right now is framed by concept that we call time. Time is nothing more than our attempt at reliably framing our perceptions given that part of our existance is hidden from us at the moment.

The bible does mention that God created us to be tested for later use as members of a body. After death I speculate that those of us who are able to follow God's lead will be used as cells in some kind of body. The people who don't follow God's lead are just like cancer cells in a body. Given this speculation perhaps life is a form of chemotherapy? A boot camp of sorts for a later task.

[archeiron]

No one here disputes that entropy is always increasing. Everything decays. Anytime you sense an increase of order (such as life), it was at the expense of a greater disorder.

If everything is falling down hill and becoming more disorderly, what set things in high order to begin with? It would have to be something very powerful and abstracted from the laws of our physical universe.

Adex, allow me to quote for you what I told Moonwynd on page 2...

You haven't the faintest idea of what you are talking about here. The second law of thermodynamics states that you can't finish any physical process (energy exchange) with as much potential (useful) energy as you started with. Put another way, the Second Law of Thermodynamics states that all systems tend to static ordered, low potential energy states over chaotic high energy ones. You could actually say that the entropy is the tendancy towards quiet order over noisy chaos.

The Second Law has no macro-scale application to biology on the level of evolutionary consideration. First, the environment fails the qualification as a closed system. As Varia pointed out, there is a constant influx of energy from the off of the surface of the planet (geothermal and solar energy). Second, while sugar and protein reactions do obey the second law (read: energy yeilding molecules cannot be recycled for endless energy), biological organisms themselves are not closed systems that would fall under the rules of entropy.

I would further caution that entropy is an observation, much like evolution: it is not a law, per say.

[Cartalas]

Translation: I cannot defend anything I believe in, logically, so poopie on you!

Translation: I like to take it up the ass so I hope there is no God!!

[Lynks]

So people who don't follow God's lead will be destroyed? I'm either with you, or against you. Thats pretty extreme.

[Cracc]

You got to see it more like... god's love is eternal and all encompassing.. but if you dont belive in him your sorry ass is gonna burn in hell for all eternity

[Cartalas]

You got to see it more like... god's love is eternal and all encompassing.. but if you dont belive in him your sorry ass is gonna burn in hell for all eternity

So what your saying is there is no punishment to going against his laws?

[Rivera Bladestrike]

Cart, rather than posting ridiculous retorts -- stick to what your good at, comic relief. You're just not good at forming a logical point.

[Adex_Xeda]

Adex, allow me to quote for you what I told Moonwynd on page 2...

You could actually say that the entropy is the tendancy towards quiet order over noisy chaos.

That's fine, define it in terms of energy. The trend is still one direction. Nothing we can find reverses that trend for a net gain.

Heat a cup of water at the expense of cooling something else off moreso that the energy transfered into the cup. Power the processes of life, at the expense of releasing stored chemical energy that took a more energy to encapulate than it provided upon release.

The question remains, what wound the clock? What set the universe at it's very high energy starting point? Whatever it was, it seems to be abstracted from the physical laws that we've managed to frame.

[Voronwë]

Whatever it was, it seems to be abstracted from the physical laws that we've managed to frame.

what facts do you base this conclusion on? at the risk of sounding argumentative, i would suggest that beyond conjecture there is no way to assert anything regarding 1. the existence of a clock builder, and 2. anything about the clockmaker.

Or to put the terms in a more framed context, as we know, before 'planck time' we don't know much about the universe - and quite possibly will never know.

that doesnt mean that there is something detached from 'the universe' responsible for the universe, it simply might mean that a side effect of the events that appear to have transpired around that time, all information prior to that point was effectively destroyed or at least obscured to such a degree that it has appears to not exist to us at this point.

[Adex_Xeda]

So people who don't follow God's lead will be destroyed? I'm either with you, or against you. Thats pretty extreme.

Cancer is techically a part of the body, yet because the cancer cells do their own thing (cellular free will?) and ignore instructions from the rest of the body or brain, they become a danger to the body.

For a body to work, individual cells must act in concert with one will and perhaps even one identity. Cells that act alone end up harming the body and are removed.

We are all brought into existance with the potiential to be contributing members of God's bigger plans. We can choose to lock our focus on to him so that our existance is most fullfilled, or we can choose our path and act in a cancerous manner due to our short sightedness.

Let's say you remove a burning log that has fallen on a kid. You tell your arm muscles to endure harm for the greater good of freeing that other person. What if your arm muscle cells decided to do their own thing? They don't have the global perspective to understand why you asked them to endure pain. They're too simple to understand the scope of a human's existance enough to grasp the significance of saving a kid from a severe burning. Those cells not locked into the directions of the brain are causing harm for the whole body.

Granted that you can only take an analogy so far, but in some respect this is what God requires. He's got something big going on that we're too simple to understand. He needs us to respond to his will for the good of everyone. If any of us aren't in step with him, we end up harming everyone. Of course he's going to remove you from being able to harm the body. Life I speculate, is the great screening of God-responsive people from self-centered people. It's a possible "meaning of life" sort to speak.

[Voronwë]

so, you, like Jesus, read the "Sermon on the Mount" as an endorsement of idyllic communism?

i'm just being goofy, i'm not trying to derail the thread that far!

what is different about cells in one body vs. individuals in a population, is that cells in one body are all genetically identical, thus it is in their adaptive "interest" to work together. That is not the case for members of a population - which is why the most successful societies on a macro-scale are those that do not distribute to each according to their need and from each according to their ability. Or to clarify, selfisness is rewarded.

Selfishness is not rewarded in multicellularity. Selfishness results in the organism dieing, and the interests of any "selfish cell" to not be served (propagation of DNA).

[Lynks]

If God is omnipotent, then there is no need for a screening process.

[Adex_Xeda]

I agree, I don't think it is in the realm of human understanding to quantify extra-universal aspects.

Our tools of science and human reasoning, can only approach the problem, just as a 12-inch ruler can only approach the task of measuring the volume of water in a cloud. Both are limited and ill fitting tools for a massive job.

Whatever it was, it seems to be abstracted from the physical laws that we've managed to frame.

what facts do you base this conclusion on? at the risk of sounding argumentative, i would suggest that beyond conjecture there is no way to assert anything regarding 1. the existence of a clock builder, and 2. anything about the clockmaker.

Or to put the terms in a more framed context, as we know, before 'planck time' we don't know much about the universe - and quite possibly will never know.

that doesnt mean that there is something detached from 'the universe' responsible for the universe, it simply might mean that a side effect of the events that appear to have transpired around that time, all information prior to that point was effectively destroyed or at least obscured to such a degree that it has appears to not exist to us at this point.

[Adex_Xeda]

If God is omnipotent, then there is no need for a screening process.

It's one of those funky time reference problems. The end result is coexistant with earlier phase. Our language is so shackled by time references its next to impossible to express or imagine an all-time, or outside of time event.

Heh, even the word "event" is shackled to a time requirement.

[Lynks]

So our life is nothing more than a paradox. Since the beginning and the end coexist, then really, free will is just an illusion since our choice has already been made.

[Rick James]

HAHA I'M DEAD BITCH!

[Lohrno]

So our life is nothing more than a paradox. Since the beginning and the end coexist, then really, free will is just an illusion since our choice has already been made.

No matter what you believe, this is true.

-=Lohrno

[Winnow]

If God or who/whatever created us exists outside of the four dimensional spacetime continuum as we perceive it, I would have to assume that He cares as much for each individual being as much as we care for bacteria.

It's a conceit to assume that God loves you.

Tenuvil's talking some sense on this thread. He even slipped in "spacetime continuum" from Back to the Future!

There are plenty of things that bother me about religion, more specifically a belief in a god, but the people that go around saying "god loves you" or "god loves me" crack me up the most.

If there is an intelligent "force" out there that created the most basic building blocks of our universe, they don't give two shits about you. Don't stress over it. If there is something beyond after we croak, just say "my bad!" to buddha, allah, giant dildohead, or whatever it turns out to be after you die and move on with your afterlife.

pssst, you're most likely going to rot after you die and nothing more so quit wasting time with this shit and enjoy yourselves.

[Puss N Boots]

all i can say on this matter is.

Meow.

[Rivera Bladestrike]

I feel bad for all the 70+ year old people who devoted themselves to something and ended up getting screwed, now old an decrepit they spend their time in churches hoping for something better and another chance. Thats what I think religion's base is from.

Your life is here for 60-95 years, use it and enjoy all of it the fullest.

[Atokal]

I feel bad for all the 70+ year old people who devoted themselves to something and ended up getting screwed, now old an decrepit they spend their time in churches hoping for something better and another chance. Thats what I think religion's base is from.

Your life is here for 60-95 years, use it and enjoy all of it the fullest.

Riv at the end of those lives, the 70+ year olds, they will be able to look back on the events of their lives and say I lived by a code that matched my morals. At the end if there is no heaven and no God they will still have lived a life of exemplary conduct. Your view is very narcisistic at worst and hedonistic at best.

Although I believe in creationism my thoughts have migrated to believe that both theories did/do exist. Directed by God.

To those who say prove God exists, I say prove the Big Bang.

Cheers

[archeiron]

To those who say prove God exists, I say prove the Big Bang.

Cheers

I am guessing this the "I know you are, but what am I?" gambit in the Creationism vs. Evolution debate. You cannot prove the existence of God, and you are not comfortable enough with that to be able to dismiss it out of hand. Isn't faith the belief in that which you cannot prove with empirical evidence? The Big Bang theory is a construct built upon empirical evidence; in thoery, we can come much closer to a proof for that theory than we can to the existence of God.

[Voronwë]

Atokal, there is a lot more evidence for the existence of "the Big Bang" than God. Background microwave radiation, measurements of acceleration of celestial bodies, observations consistent with model predictions, etc.

It doesnt prove that the "Big Bang" happened exactly as the way scientists would describe it, but i think that it is a virtual certainty that the universe is expanding, and has been expanding as far back in time as we can observe.

[Lohrno]

To those who say prove God exists, I say prove the Big Bang.

I'm quite comfortable saying "I don't know."
Neither has been conclusively proven. It could be both, it could be neither.

-=Lohrno

[Lohrno]

Your view is very narcisistic

I can say the same of yours.

Cheers

[Lohrno]

By the way, I don't see much discussion of the other possibility. Creation of the universe via Midnyte being triple teamed by dudes with Bush masks on.

-=Lohrno