Xyun, just a question umm how do you know the people in the middle east don't want the democracy/freedom of religion that the USA has?
Have you taken a poll?
Further I think what Fallanthas is to saying is try being grateful for what you have instead of bitching about a system that may not be perfect but it is a hell of a lot better than the system your father had.
What I find amazing is the total hatred from some here towards the United States. No one is claiming it is a Utopia, but it sure is the best country in the world for many reasons. This from a Canuck.
Cheers
Jihad This!
Moderator: TheMachine
I know exactly what he's trying to say. The point is irrelevant though.Further I think what Fallanthas is to saying is try being grateful for what you have instead of bitching about a system that may not be perfect but it is a hell of a lot better than the system your father had.
This thread is about war.
All the views that I have stated regard U.S. foreign policy towards the middle east. In a true debate, a person never should have to defend his own character, only his point.
He fails, because instead of making logical concise points to counter my arguments he throws out, "how can anyone have such a view, that is so stupid!" Ces't la vi.
My points?
U.S. foreign policy in the mid-east has stunk for over half a century. In my opinion it is getting progressively worse, not better. A war on Iraq at this time will cause much more harm then good for the following reasons.
1) War = loss of life
2) The U.S. has shown NO PROOF of anything they claim to exist.
3) This war goes against U.N. laws, which the U.S. helped to create.
4) This war would increase terrorist activity throughout the world.
The subject was derailed because he made a wise ass comment:
I dub this comment the most idiotic and ignorant one on this thread.Quote:
Xyun says we need to concede to the demands(stop supporting Israel, move troops out of Saudi, etc.) of the terrorists and they'll stop bombing us.
I really hope this is a misunderstanding. Anyone who could take this position has no clue as to personal or religious motivations in this conflict.
Fallanthas please bless me with your overwhelming knowledge of the mid-east and why this war is good for anyone. Honestly, I can't wait to read what you have to say.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Xyun, while I see you point that
War = Death
I fail to see your point
With regards to the analogy of Hitler and WWII I think that had the world left Saddam to his own devices he would not have stopped at Kuwait.
There is after all a reason behind his massive military build up prior to the Kuwait conflict and Desert Storm. So sitting idly by while he builds another military machine while possibly manufacturing weapons of mass destruction would be irresponsible.
Where is the proof everyone asks. Well that is what the weapons inspections are for as I highly doubt Saddam is going to provide an inventory.
With regards to the sanctions, well at the present time I don't see any alternative as the world at large seems to want to avoid pressuring Sadam into allowing the inspections.
Saddam = Meglomaniacal Warmonger.
Israel/Palastine should be left to handle there own problems?
Heh anyone who thinks that the Arab world would not unite to destroy Israel were it not for the US intervention is confused. The opposite is also true Israel would most certainly destroy Palestine were it not for the restraining arm of the USA.
Cheers
War = Death
I fail to see your point
As it has been proven that Iraq snubbed its nose at the UN resolution regarding arms inspections.3) This war goes against U.N. laws, which the U.S. helped to create.
With regards to the analogy of Hitler and WWII I think that had the world left Saddam to his own devices he would not have stopped at Kuwait.
There is after all a reason behind his massive military build up prior to the Kuwait conflict and Desert Storm. So sitting idly by while he builds another military machine while possibly manufacturing weapons of mass destruction would be irresponsible.
Where is the proof everyone asks. Well that is what the weapons inspections are for as I highly doubt Saddam is going to provide an inventory.
With regards to the sanctions, well at the present time I don't see any alternative as the world at large seems to want to avoid pressuring Sadam into allowing the inspections.
Saddam = Meglomaniacal Warmonger.
Israel/Palastine should be left to handle there own problems?
Heh anyone who thinks that the Arab world would not unite to destroy Israel were it not for the US intervention is confused. The opposite is also true Israel would most certainly destroy Palestine were it not for the restraining arm of the USA.
Cheers
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
-
Fallanthas
- Way too much time!
- Posts: 1525
- Joined: July 17, 2002, 1:11 pm
Sueven,
It is very possible for us to force some of our beliefs on others. That's not what I said.
I said....
1. It is ludicrous for someone who lost a family member to religious oppresion to sit in the United States and bitch about US forcing ideals on that same culture.
2. It is impossible to force someone into a democracy. Either you choose to participate in a democracy or you don't. A democracy at gunpoint cannot exist.
It is very possible for us to force some of our beliefs on others. That's not what I said.
I said....
1. It is ludicrous for someone who lost a family member to religious oppresion to sit in the United States and bitch about US forcing ideals on that same culture.
2. It is impossible to force someone into a democracy. Either you choose to participate in a democracy or you don't. A democracy at gunpoint cannot exist.
I don't see why.1. It is ludicrous for someone who lost a family member to religious oppresion to sit in the United States and bitch about US forcing ideals on that same culture.
Maybe it's impossible to force someone into a good, functioning democracy. The United States has proved many times that it is possible to go ahead and set one up, though.2. It is impossible to force someone into a democracy. Either you choose to participate in a democracy or you don't. A democracy at gunpoint cannot exist.
-
Algrinon Stormbringer
- No Stars!
- Posts: 9
- Joined: October 24, 2002, 5:29 pm
- Location: OKC
- Contact:
This is why the US is as screwed up as it is:
1) We let ungreatful bastards come into the country who hate the US and start killing us like a cancer from the inside out.
2) The UN is spineless. All the Secretary General cares about is getting his Nobel peace prize (now the value of a cracker jack toy)
Lucky the US has the balls to do what is right. People will piss and moan and worry as we unseat Saddam, but who the hell cares. No one can stop us and everyone knows that the US is right and the wacked out Islamic Whackos are wrong.
Die Iraq, I just hope they let me push the red shiny button.
Persian Gulf: Been there, done that, now I get to go back cuz we didnt finish the J.O.B. the first time.
Algrinon Stormbringer
-
Krimson Klaw
- Way too much time!
- Posts: 1976
- Joined: July 22, 2002, 1:00 pm
I have been thinking about what Kyoukan said about leaving the middle east to their own devices. I changed my mind too. I think it's a good idea, the rest of the world stay out of it, and Israel, with it's hands untied, will have this mess cleared up in about one month, as all the Arab/muslim nations that want them extinct become wormfood under the Israeli military machine.
In short, I now agree with you Kyoukan!
In short, I now agree with you Kyoukan!
Atokal, you are the only one who made an effort at making a decent reply to my previous post. When I mentioned actions going against the laws of the U.N., I was referring to articles 41, 42, and 51 of the U.N. charter. Look em up if you want.
Fallanthas, congratz on saying the exact same thing 3 times in a row. Yes yes, we know how my opinions are just so ludicrous and how it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to force democracy on people. You have anything else to contribute? Maybe facts, or logic to support your statements or do you just enjoy being the skip in the record?
Algrinon for president!
Fallanthas, congratz on saying the exact same thing 3 times in a row. Yes yes, we know how my opinions are just so ludicrous and how it is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to force democracy on people. You have anything else to contribute? Maybe facts, or logic to support your statements or do you just enjoy being the skip in the record?
Algrinon for president!
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
I have a lot to say,yet I will sum it up.
Bush is totally wrong with wanting to do actions vs Iraq with out UN word to do so. The main fucking reason the UN is there is for the WORLD to work the problems out. Not 1 fucking country getting 1 or 2 others to go to war vs another country.
If we do that. The US is no better than what Iraq is doing. Saying fuck you UN, were doing whatever we want. Sure Iraq has done it for the past 8 years? But why go to war,when we can at least get some inspecters in and see whats going on. If he doesnt allow them to do somethings that the UN agrees on. You now have ways to force the inspects.
Then slam the book shut and go clean out whats going on. People dont hide shit,becuase nothing is there. People hide stuff to not show you what they are doing.
2 wrongs dont make a right. I for one think Iraq shouldnt have ANY say whatso ever. We should be there now inspecting with a military convoy from the UN to inspect with out approvel from a country that tried to invade another. That also has been known to have Bio and chemical weapons.
Now since so much time h as gone by,they want to set new resolutions on how to go about this. Thats bullshit. Go with the old ones. They kick out the inspectors,then you force Saddam out of power.
Bush is totally wrong with wanting to do actions vs Iraq with out UN word to do so. The main fucking reason the UN is there is for the WORLD to work the problems out. Not 1 fucking country getting 1 or 2 others to go to war vs another country.
If we do that. The US is no better than what Iraq is doing. Saying fuck you UN, were doing whatever we want. Sure Iraq has done it for the past 8 years? But why go to war,when we can at least get some inspecters in and see whats going on. If he doesnt allow them to do somethings that the UN agrees on. You now have ways to force the inspects.
Then slam the book shut and go clean out whats going on. People dont hide shit,becuase nothing is there. People hide stuff to not show you what they are doing.
2 wrongs dont make a right. I for one think Iraq shouldnt have ANY say whatso ever. We should be there now inspecting with a military convoy from the UN to inspect with out approvel from a country that tried to invade another. That also has been known to have Bio and chemical weapons.
Now since so much time h as gone by,they want to set new resolutions on how to go about this. Thats bullshit. Go with the old ones. They kick out the inspectors,then you force Saddam out of power.
OMG Homework.
Article 41
The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations.
Obviously these measures have been inadequate so we move to article 42
Article 42
Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.
3 years later and still waiting.
Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
If Saddam had the means, I am sure he would be shooting SCUDS into the USA at which point the US could declare war. However the US has apparently gotten proof of Iraqi complicity in the events of 9/11.
Article 49
The Members of the United Nations shall join in affording mutual assistance in carrying out the measures decided upon by the Security Council.
Added this one, hrmm still waiting for the completion of the weapons inspections and the toothless UN sits on its hands restructuring the resolution to be more palatable to a madman. Definately a contradictory organization at best.
Sorry Xyun I didnt respond to your points, just made a few of my own.
Cheers
Cheers
Article 41
The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of the United Nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication, and the severance of diplomatic relations.
Obviously these measures have been inadequate so we move to article 42
Article 42
Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.
3 years later and still waiting.
Article 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.
If Saddam had the means, I am sure he would be shooting SCUDS into the USA at which point the US could declare war. However the US has apparently gotten proof of Iraqi complicity in the events of 9/11.
Article 49
The Members of the United Nations shall join in affording mutual assistance in carrying out the measures decided upon by the Security Council.
Added this one, hrmm still waiting for the completion of the weapons inspections and the toothless UN sits on its hands restructuring the resolution to be more palatable to a madman. Definately a contradictory organization at best.
Sorry Xyun I didnt respond to your points, just made a few of my own.
Cheers
Cheers
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
If you did some more research you would realize that SCUD missiles do not have the range to hit the U.S. Not sure what their maximum range is but it is not more than 1k miles or so. The only types of missiles capable of crossing the atlantic or pacific are called ICBMs (Inter-continental ballistic missiles). Iraq does not have the technology or the means to produce these missiles any time in the near future. If they get nuclear technology and wish to detonate it on America, odds are they will try to smuggle the bomb.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Xyun,
In my post I said
As to your comments about ICBM's, I kinda knew that one. Dirty Bombs? well since we both agree that if he had the technology he would try and smuggle one into the US I say game on lets remove the despot as the rules of engagement don't apply here.
Cheers
In my post I said
Notice where I said IF.If Saddam had the means, I am sure he would be shooting SCUDS into the USA at which point the US could declare war.
As to your comments about ICBM's, I kinda knew that one. Dirty Bombs? well since we both agree that if he had the technology he would try and smuggle one into the US I say game on lets remove the despot as the rules of engagement don't apply here.
Cheers
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
I'm all for removing Saddam, but not if it's going to mean invading the country and killing civilians along the way.
Your justifications are not sufficient in my opinion because your entire side of the argument centers around the word "if".
I am, for the most part, done with this thread.
Your justifications are not sufficient in my opinion because your entire side of the argument centers around the word "if".
I am, for the most part, done with this thread.
I tell it like a true mackadelic.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Founder of Ixtlan - the SCUM of Veeshan.
Post summary:
World is going to hell in a hand-basket.
Solution:
Whoever/Whatever created this wonderful planet destory all the "higher" lifeforms that are currently destroying it and start again
Result:
Happy planet, Peace!!!!
World is going to hell in a hand-basket.
Solution:
Whoever/Whatever created this wonderful planet destory all the "higher" lifeforms that are currently destroying it and start again
Result:
Happy planet, Peace!!!!
It could be that the only purpose for your every existence, is to serve as a warning to others.
Weird I thought the US was playing the "we're doing the common iraqi man/woman a favour here" angle.
If you are forcibly removing the head of a foreign state from power against the will of the people of that country and without regard for civilian casualties you've gone past the definition of a "policing action/regime change policy" and need a new term to define the action. Like "invasion" or "naked aggression".
If you are forcibly removing the head of a foreign state from power against the will of the people of that country and without regard for civilian casualties you've gone past the definition of a "policing action/regime change policy" and need a new term to define the action. Like "invasion" or "naked aggression".
Tancred-
Krimson Klaw
- Way too much time!
- Posts: 1976
- Joined: July 22, 2002, 1:00 pm
-
Krimson Klaw
- Way too much time!
- Posts: 1976
- Joined: July 22, 2002, 1:00 pm
Or how about just removing a madman from the face of the planet before he ends up being a Hitler with Nukes?vn_Tanc wrote:Weird I thought the US was playing the "we're doing the common iraqi man/woman a favour here" angle.
If you are forcibly removing the head of a foreign state from power against the will of the people of that country and without regard for civilian casualties you've gone past the definition of a "policing action/regime change policy" and need a new term to define the action. Like "invasion" or "naked aggression".
I doubt the French and English would call us bailing them out of WWII *naked aggression* just because the German people did not want their beloved leader to be removed from power.
-
Hammerstalker PE
- Way too much time!
- Posts: 1153
- Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:22 pm
- Location: Rancho Santa Margarita, Ca. USA
At the end of the day Saddam Hussien has proven that he can't be trusted. He has never fully complied with the UN weapons inspections which by the way he is obligated to do under the agreement he signed so the Allied forces wouldn't finish him off.
I look at this like parole. Saddam was given parole so long as he met certain requirements. He has not met any of the requirements and in fact has brazenly flaunted this fact. So just like any parole violator it is time to impose the suspended sentence. Send in the troops and wipe this fucktard from the planet.
I disagree that this would cause further turmoil in the middle east. In fact I think it would go a long way to stabilizing that region. Iraq has been a thorn in the side of many nations there including a war with Iran and the invasion of Kuwait. I honestly feel that the other Arab nations would be more than happy to have him removed so they could concentrate on shipping oil and making money.
I look at this like parole. Saddam was given parole so long as he met certain requirements. He has not met any of the requirements and in fact has brazenly flaunted this fact. So just like any parole violator it is time to impose the suspended sentence. Send in the troops and wipe this fucktard from the planet.
I disagree that this would cause further turmoil in the middle east. In fact I think it would go a long way to stabilizing that region. Iraq has been a thorn in the side of many nations there including a war with Iran and the invasion of Kuwait. I honestly feel that the other Arab nations would be more than happy to have him removed so they could concentrate on shipping oil and making money.
The UN isn't enforcing it's own sanctions against Iraq. Bush is kicking them in the ass and telling them that Saddam isn't complying while the UN continues to twiddle its thumbs. The UN had its chance. If the UN functioned as intended we would already be in Iraq because they failed to comply.Ass wrote:I have a lot to say,yet I will sum it up.
Bush is totally wrong with wanting to do actions vs Iraq with out UN word to do so. The main fucking reason the UN is there is for the WORLD to work the problems out. Not 1 fucking country getting 1 or 2 others to go to war vs another country.
The United Nations is a joke atm. The concept is outstanding but in practice it sucks. Waiting for the UN to approve something would take years. Their track record of not enforcing past decisions only supports Bushs harsh stance with them.
As far as oil and alternative energy (sorry out of town the last 4 days, so I know it's a little late)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
Granted, this is published by the US government, and I have no idea how extensive they were in including global oil resources.
Anyways, for those too lazy to read. It says, at present rates of consumption, there will be no more oil in 40 years.
40 years ago, they said the same thing...and some of you may remember from history that major changes in consumption rates of oil here in the US. That's when they first began working on energy efficiency here in the states, and the gas scares with mile long lines for gasoline.
As far as alternative energy cars, I forget who is ahead atm. But Toyota and Honda both are very close to Hydrogen Fuel Cell prototype completion.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
Granted, this is published by the US government, and I have no idea how extensive they were in including global oil resources.
Anyways, for those too lazy to read. It says, at present rates of consumption, there will be no more oil in 40 years.
40 years ago, they said the same thing...and some of you may remember from history that major changes in consumption rates of oil here in the US. That's when they first began working on energy efficiency here in the states, and the gas scares with mile long lines for gasoline.
As far as alternative energy cars, I forget who is ahead atm. But Toyota and Honda both are very close to Hydrogen Fuel Cell prototype completion.
-
Kilmoll the Sexy
- Super Poster!
- Posts: 5295
- Joined: July 3, 2002, 3:31 pm
- Gender: Male
- XBL Gamertag: bunkeru2k
- Location: Ohio
Krimson, I agree about letting Israel loose. You did forget one thing....they would have help in a small country called Russia who has been battling some of the same Muslim nutballs. I think we could sit back with a cold beer and watch those two countries wipe out the entire region. I am buying!
And to Fairweather: again I would like to see where this idea comes from that G.W. Bush is personally responsible for allowing matches and lighters on planes? Last time I checked the procedures in this country, the president only signs his name as a formality to any law. He can veto and STILL be overruled. If you want someone to blame on this, blame the smokers. It is ok with me if you want to kill them all off as well. NO ONE whines like a smoker who is deprived of polluting the air.
And to Fairweather: again I would like to see where this idea comes from that G.W. Bush is personally responsible for allowing matches and lighters on planes? Last time I checked the procedures in this country, the president only signs his name as a formality to any law. He can veto and STILL be overruled. If you want someone to blame on this, blame the smokers. It is ok with me if you want to kill them all off as well. NO ONE whines like a smoker who is deprived of polluting the air.
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b7_ ... ct26.story
You guys keep defending them!
The article you posted is no more relevant than this one.
You guys keep defending them!
The article you posted is no more relevant than this one.
I have your ass right here you stupid bitch. I'm sorry if your so short sighted to relize what open aggression would cause. Sure Un has sat on their thumbs. I never said they didnt. 8 or so years they have. Yet to openly ignore the UN would make our actions just as wrong as Iraqs.
Up till NOW there really has been NO action pressed on Saddam, to the point where they bitch about it in the UN pool room during lunch. So all the so called " world power leaders" can agree on what actions to take. More than 1 country will be involved in this. If I had my way, I would have finnished the job in the first place.Yet this isnt the case,and have the Russians, The French who dont know shit, Brits, Mexico and whoever else.
But whatever. I wouldnt personaly want to "invoke" a ton of pissed off people AROUND the world not just Iraq. We have solid reasons to clean him up,but with out the world approval. It wouldnt be worth the backlash.
Up till NOW there really has been NO action pressed on Saddam, to the point where they bitch about it in the UN pool room during lunch. So all the so called " world power leaders" can agree on what actions to take. More than 1 country will be involved in this. If I had my way, I would have finnished the job in the first place.Yet this isnt the case,and have the Russians, The French who dont know shit, Brits, Mexico and whoever else.
But whatever. I wouldnt personaly want to "invoke" a ton of pissed off people AROUND the world not just Iraq. We have solid reasons to clean him up,but with out the world approval. It wouldnt be worth the backlash.
Last edited by Raistin on October 28, 2002, 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
Zygar_ Cthulhukin
- Almost 1337
- Posts: 654
- Joined: September 4, 2002, 9:18 am
- Gender: Male
- Location: Ar-keen-saw
-
Phugg_Innay
- Star Farmer
- Posts: 386
- Joined: July 3, 2002, 10:36 pm
- Location: East Bay , California
- Contact:
UN impossed sanctions= NOT working (or backed up for that matter)
We (US) invades Iraq= Double or more for the price of crude oil
Saddam dies (not likely)= another Zealot takes power
Someone earlier mentioned the link between current Iraq and pre (during) WW2 Germany. Something for sure has to be done. If the party's that be decide to do nothing , shit I dont have the answers, but am tired of the issue in general. I applaud Bush Jr for his will to actaully DO SOMETHING , unlike the UN. If it all gets resolved , that would be great.
Another thing that bothered me was someone mentioned civilians getting killed. Well to F'N bad , its going to happen. Yes it sucks , but it is a fact of aggression. With todays technology the civilian casualties will be at a minimum. Look back at WW2 and see how we bombed. Carpet bombing, completely saturating an area with an estimated 20-300 planes dropping bombs indescrimately. That would NOT happen now days , with the tech of laser designation that fact is SO over. If you want to see how bombing was done , go rent or look it up, movie made was Memphis Belle , it shows a great depiction of things were actually done way back when.
If you want to know what war was really like , go find that nice old guy in your neighborhood with the flag proudly displayed on his porch. Chances are he was on the beaches of Normandy or over in Europe somewhere. The art of War today is the cleanest most sterile enviroment ever. I have NO problem with the US going in and cleaning up. It would make it better if we had the support of the UN , but hey when Pigs fly , right ?
well enough of the rant by me , its just my 2 cents.
Have a great day all
We (US) invades Iraq= Double or more for the price of crude oil
Saddam dies (not likely)= another Zealot takes power
Someone earlier mentioned the link between current Iraq and pre (during) WW2 Germany. Something for sure has to be done. If the party's that be decide to do nothing , shit I dont have the answers, but am tired of the issue in general. I applaud Bush Jr for his will to actaully DO SOMETHING , unlike the UN. If it all gets resolved , that would be great.
Another thing that bothered me was someone mentioned civilians getting killed. Well to F'N bad , its going to happen. Yes it sucks , but it is a fact of aggression. With todays technology the civilian casualties will be at a minimum. Look back at WW2 and see how we bombed. Carpet bombing, completely saturating an area with an estimated 20-300 planes dropping bombs indescrimately. That would NOT happen now days , with the tech of laser designation that fact is SO over. If you want to see how bombing was done , go rent or look it up, movie made was Memphis Belle , it shows a great depiction of things were actually done way back when.
If you want to know what war was really like , go find that nice old guy in your neighborhood with the flag proudly displayed on his porch. Chances are he was on the beaches of Normandy or over in Europe somewhere. The art of War today is the cleanest most sterile enviroment ever. I have NO problem with the US going in and cleaning up. It would make it better if we had the support of the UN , but hey when Pigs fly , right ?
well enough of the rant by me , its just my 2 cents.
Have a great day all
Phugg Innay Bard ( retired )
WTFO ,,, (What the Fuck , OVER)
WTFO ,,, (What the Fuck , OVER)
Some real brilliant ideas on this thead:
people encouraging Israel to imbark on a genocidal campaign through the region. Equally implausible and ironic.
there is no analagy between Hitler and Hussein. the problem with Hitler is that he moved through other countries unchecked. Hussein can't even use 50% of the airspace in his own country. There is no analogy at all other than people want to paint them with the same brush as 'evil'.
some talking heads are trying to unify anti-American sentiment from Muslim radicals into a buzzword for their listener/viewer/readers: "Jihadism". Whether or not this is accurate i do not know. Because there are multiple groups who hate the West does not mean they are all pushing the same agenda and part of the same organization.
"well what difference does that make?"
maybe none.
the US is in fact trying to move through the UN Security Council to issue a new ultimatum to Iraq.
I think this is the way to go. If after another month or two that proves fruitless, then it is time to go "over their head" and officially build the military coalition. though i hope there is a better, less expensive solution than a large military operation that we have to fund 100% ourselves.
people encouraging Israel to imbark on a genocidal campaign through the region. Equally implausible and ironic.
there is no analagy between Hitler and Hussein. the problem with Hitler is that he moved through other countries unchecked. Hussein can't even use 50% of the airspace in his own country. There is no analogy at all other than people want to paint them with the same brush as 'evil'.
some talking heads are trying to unify anti-American sentiment from Muslim radicals into a buzzword for their listener/viewer/readers: "Jihadism". Whether or not this is accurate i do not know. Because there are multiple groups who hate the West does not mean they are all pushing the same agenda and part of the same organization.
"well what difference does that make?"
maybe none.
the US is in fact trying to move through the UN Security Council to issue a new ultimatum to Iraq.
I think this is the way to go. If after another month or two that proves fruitless, then it is time to go "over their head" and officially build the military coalition. though i hope there is a better, less expensive solution than a large military operation that we have to fund 100% ourselves.
-
Krimson Klaw
- Way too much time!
- Posts: 1976
- Joined: July 22, 2002, 1:00 pm
I agree with everything you said except this:
The reason he can't move around? Is because AFTER he tried to *move through Kuwait unchecked* we earthlings learned from the mistake we made with Hitler, and did NOT turn the other cheek. We went in, stomped a mudhole, and left. So if your only argument of not making an analogyu between Hussein and Hitler is that we took action against one and not the other, then that's pretty flawed.Voronwë wrote: there is no analagy between Hitler and Hussein. the problem with Hitler is that he moved through other countries unchecked. Hussein can't even use 50% of the airspace in his own country. There is no analogy at all other than people want to paint them with the same brush as 'evil'.
.
Can someone PLEASE explain to me in an intelligent manner exactly why going into Iraq would be different this time from how it was last time IN THAT it would cause the price of oil to skyrocket?
I am sick and FUCKING TIRED of people saying that this is going to be a direct result without backing up their shit. My ECON professor mentioned it in class and when I called him on it and asked him to prove/explain to me why it didn't happen last time (and more importently - why it would happen this time) he just blew me off and didn't answer my question... This jackoff bastard is one of those guys that is (I believe) incapable in independent thought and simply repeats what he is told. Well, I guess his source failed to include instructions on how to verify the words he speaks.
I recall seeing the news from the US while I was in the dessert with sand in my socks -- In San Antonio TX, the price of gas at the pump actually decreased. I remember my wife saying that she went and filled up all both cars and my truck when she found out ... she was pissed because the price never went up a cent, infact it dropped a few cents within a week.
I noticed that Phugg said the same thing...
I'm not calling Phugg a liar, and I'm not trying to start any kind of shit here... I am simply asking for a link to something that I can accept as evidence. In the small amount of searching I have done, all I was able to find was other people making broad blanket statements without citing a source... If I start telling everyone that war in Iraq will cause oil prices to rise, that doesn't make it any more true than it was before I started to say it... all it does is spread the same story that we have all heard.
If everyone simply declares that the price of crude oil will increase, I guess it will. I know that if I had an oil refinery here in the US, I'd be jacking prices at every available opportunity regardless of whether or not there was a situation to warrant it -- but then, I'm an opportunistic, profiteering, greedy dick like that. Maybe the "big evil oil companies" are responsible for creating, distributing, and pushing this story?
Anyway... someone please help me out here -- I simply want the original source of the "If we go to war with Iraq then crude oil prices are going to increase at an alarming rate" bullshit.
Question anything that is contrary to your own personal beliefs/experiences. This is how you learn.
----------------------
Ahmik
54 Ghetto Cleric
Reunited Clan
I am sick and FUCKING TIRED of people saying that this is going to be a direct result without backing up their shit. My ECON professor mentioned it in class and when I called him on it and asked him to prove/explain to me why it didn't happen last time (and more importently - why it would happen this time) he just blew me off and didn't answer my question... This jackoff bastard is one of those guys that is (I believe) incapable in independent thought and simply repeats what he is told. Well, I guess his source failed to include instructions on how to verify the words he speaks.
I recall seeing the news from the US while I was in the dessert with sand in my socks -- In San Antonio TX, the price of gas at the pump actually decreased. I remember my wife saying that she went and filled up all both cars and my truck when she found out ... she was pissed because the price never went up a cent, infact it dropped a few cents within a week.
I noticed that Phugg said the same thing...
Phugg_Innay Posted: We (US) invades Iraq= Double or more for the price of crude oil
I'm not calling Phugg a liar, and I'm not trying to start any kind of shit here... I am simply asking for a link to something that I can accept as evidence. In the small amount of searching I have done, all I was able to find was other people making broad blanket statements without citing a source... If I start telling everyone that war in Iraq will cause oil prices to rise, that doesn't make it any more true than it was before I started to say it... all it does is spread the same story that we have all heard.
If everyone simply declares that the price of crude oil will increase, I guess it will. I know that if I had an oil refinery here in the US, I'd be jacking prices at every available opportunity regardless of whether or not there was a situation to warrant it -- but then, I'm an opportunistic, profiteering, greedy dick like that. Maybe the "big evil oil companies" are responsible for creating, distributing, and pushing this story?
Anyway... someone please help me out here -- I simply want the original source of the "If we go to war with Iraq then crude oil prices are going to increase at an alarming rate" bullshit.
Question anything that is contrary to your own personal beliefs/experiences. This is how you learn.
----------------------
Ahmik
54 Ghetto Cleric
Reunited Clan
During Desert Storm the US government stepped in and froze prices at the pumps so the impact of the war was not felt by the US consumer at the gas station IIRC. In some cases there was gouging and I believe a law was passed to prosecute gas stations for this unethical practice.
Under normal circumstances the price of crude would be increased dramatically simply because of the perceived threat to the area. Fact is that it would be another money grab by OPEC.
My cp.
Under normal circumstances the price of crude would be increased dramatically simply because of the perceived threat to the area. Fact is that it would be another money grab by OPEC.
My cp.
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
I think one of the Fox news anchors summed it up the best when he described the U.N. as a place for a bunch of international bureaucrats to go work a day and get a paycheck. They truely accomplish nothing. Personally I think the U.S. should just close it's borders, stop trading with all uncooperative countries, and let these "innocent" dictators fuck up the world while the U.S. and it's allies enjoy the bounties of free trade.(please realize that even I understand how silly this proposal is)
After Sadam unites the arab countries and ethnically clenses the reigon to his tastes, North Korea nukes Japan, and Canadian radicals mount a halfassed border assualt on the U.S. using shotguns and strong words....I'm sure all of the nay-sayers will feel the world is a much better place. Who needs the over-agressive U.S. anyway right?
You fecal-dildo liberals should have your own special retard forum.
After Sadam unites the arab countries and ethnically clenses the reigon to his tastes, North Korea nukes Japan, and Canadian radicals mount a halfassed border assualt on the U.S. using shotguns and strong words....I'm sure all of the nay-sayers will feel the world is a much better place. Who needs the over-agressive U.S. anyway right?
You fecal-dildo liberals should have your own special retard forum.
Don't blame me if you see my old characters acting like asses.
WTF?Canadian radicals mount a halfassed border assualt on the U.S. using shotguns and strong words....I'm sure all of the nay-sayers will feel the world is a much better place.
Atokal
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.
Niccolo Machiavelli
Pubes:
the world is too small to build up a wall and pull the plug from our international investment opportunities.
the mere suggestion is absurd on a number of levels, but if you think that one day down the road you are going to be able to open the door and find the rest of the world "took care of business" and now there are daisies growing on the hills and piles of cash that we left around the world, that are ours again to dust off and put to work, well you are delusional
.
i dont think you realize how much of our economy hinges upon exporting our culture, as well as importing goods and services that simply are too expensive if performed domestically, due to our high standard of living.
let's take the most simplistic scenario imaginable where there would be no apocalyptic miltary events, where the US went into isolationsit mode.
well 20 years from now when we open the doors again, the trillions of dollars of market opportunity that is now a potential hope for the US economy to have a big piece of will have been sucked up by somebody else.
if the world that simple, solutions like that could perhaps be viable. The US hasn't been self sufficient for quite awhile now. And part of the cost of us making money in global markets is that we have to deal with the political uncertainties of developing markets.
so basically, we made the decision long ago that we wanted to sit at the head of the global economic table, as opposed to the kiddie table that would be analagous to isolationism.
the world is too small to build up a wall and pull the plug from our international investment opportunities.
the mere suggestion is absurd on a number of levels, but if you think that one day down the road you are going to be able to open the door and find the rest of the world "took care of business" and now there are daisies growing on the hills and piles of cash that we left around the world, that are ours again to dust off and put to work, well you are delusional
.i dont think you realize how much of our economy hinges upon exporting our culture, as well as importing goods and services that simply are too expensive if performed domestically, due to our high standard of living.
let's take the most simplistic scenario imaginable where there would be no apocalyptic miltary events, where the US went into isolationsit mode.
well 20 years from now when we open the doors again, the trillions of dollars of market opportunity that is now a potential hope for the US economy to have a big piece of will have been sucked up by somebody else.
if the world that simple, solutions like that could perhaps be viable. The US hasn't been self sufficient for quite awhile now. And part of the cost of us making money in global markets is that we have to deal with the political uncertainties of developing markets.
so basically, we made the decision long ago that we wanted to sit at the head of the global economic table, as opposed to the kiddie table that would be analagous to isolationism.
Yeah I'm amazed the world has lasted so long without arrogant fucking yankee assholes that don't know fuck all like you pretending to police everything the entire time. Because clearly without the US, the entire world would collapse into anarchy and war. Wow, and you call me retarded. Why don't you fall into a big old filthy pool of your own self appreciation?Pubin wrote:I think one of the Fox news anchors summed it up the best when he described the U.N. as a place for a bunch of international bureaucrats to go work a day and get a paycheck. They truely accomplish nothing. Personally I think the U.S. should just close it's borders, stop trading with all uncooperative countries, and let these "innocent" dictators fuck up the world while the U.S. and it's allies enjoy the bounties of free trade.(please realize that even I understand how silly this proposal is)
After Sadam unites the arab countries and ethnically clenses the reigon to his tastes, North Korea nukes Japan, and Canadian radicals mount a halfassed border assualt on the U.S. using shotguns and strong words....I'm sure all of the nay-sayers will feel the world is a much better place. Who needs the over-agressive U.S. anyway right?
You fecal-dildo liberals should have your own special retard forum.
Pubin raises a point here that I want to address simply because I have given this a little thought... this is another area that my Econ professor refused to debate...
I'd like to see (in this order) a few temporary changes:
1) Close all borders to immigration. Along with this, tighten security on all sides to minimize illegal entry into the US.
2) Stop all foreign financial aid. Allow all countries currently receiving anything from the US to re-apply and justify why we should continue to profide financial and/or military support. This does not include food and medical aid. I'm not heartless.
3) Recall all debts currently owed to the US. Until all debt is paid in full, no further loans/grants will be permitted. If we have to foreclose on the loan, your capital will have a US flag and you will be the 51st state.
4) Trade with foreign governments will be done on a dollar-for-dollar basis. Ten billion dollars worth of imports from China = Ten Billion dollars worth of exports to China. Japan is the target here... I believe the ratio in US Dollars is about 4700:1 (they import VERY little from us).
5) Wallstreet day-traders standing in the bullpen are the ones most directly responsible for the HUGE swings in the economy. They can drive a stable and profitable stock into the toilet in hours simply based on unfounded rumors. This has a very dramatic impact on the US economy.
I would like to see ALL stock purchases held for 5 business days from the time of purchase until they can be sold. After 5 days, each purchase contract can then be sold if the current holder chooses. This will make the wild swings in the NASDAQ and the DJ come to a screeching halt.
I do fully realize that this is not practical nor feasible - but I sure would like to see the results... Let these changes ride for 3-4 months.
Ahmik
54 Cleric
Reunited Clan
I'd like to see (in this order) a few temporary changes:
1) Close all borders to immigration. Along with this, tighten security on all sides to minimize illegal entry into the US.
2) Stop all foreign financial aid. Allow all countries currently receiving anything from the US to re-apply and justify why we should continue to profide financial and/or military support. This does not include food and medical aid. I'm not heartless.
3) Recall all debts currently owed to the US. Until all debt is paid in full, no further loans/grants will be permitted. If we have to foreclose on the loan, your capital will have a US flag and you will be the 51st state.
4) Trade with foreign governments will be done on a dollar-for-dollar basis. Ten billion dollars worth of imports from China = Ten Billion dollars worth of exports to China. Japan is the target here... I believe the ratio in US Dollars is about 4700:1 (they import VERY little from us).
5) Wallstreet day-traders standing in the bullpen are the ones most directly responsible for the HUGE swings in the economy. They can drive a stable and profitable stock into the toilet in hours simply based on unfounded rumors. This has a very dramatic impact on the US economy.
I would like to see ALL stock purchases held for 5 business days from the time of purchase until they can be sold. After 5 days, each purchase contract can then be sold if the current holder chooses. This will make the wild swings in the NASDAQ and the DJ come to a screeching halt.
I do fully realize that this is not practical nor feasible - but I sure would like to see the results... Let these changes ride for 3-4 months.
Ahmik
54 Cleric
Reunited Clan
-
Bubba Grizz
- Super Poster!
- Posts: 6121
- Joined: July 3, 2002, 12:52 pm
- Gender: Male
- Location: Green Bay, Wisconsin
I think that if we were to call in all the money that is owed to us we'd end up forclosing on a lot of countries. Hell, even if we can't get our money back from them at least we can do is stop sending the money to them. I believe Israel is one of the countries that gets a large amount of money from us each year.
lol i hope one day we tell all o ther countrys to fuck off and then we will be all rich and stuf and all other countrys will be liek omg can we have some money u have all teh money and we dont have any and we will be like lol fags u should have suported us when we wanted to invade iraq and they will feal so stupid and say omg how could we be so gay
rofl i asked my ecnomics professor total fucking stupid questions and he totaly brushed me off omg can u beleve that?! i am like hey prpeffesor why cant we just say hey fuk u we are amaerica and u r lucky we dont blow you up iwth nucular weapons and make you the 51st state and he was like wtf dude? and hten i was like wtf dude?
rofl i asked my ecnomics professor total fucking stupid questions and he totaly brushed me off omg can u beleve that?! i am like hey prpeffesor why cant we just say hey fuk u we are amaerica and u r lucky we dont blow you up iwth nucular weapons and make you the 51st state and he was like wtf dude? and hten i was like wtf dude?