Kerry On Iraq

Avestan · Post by **Avestan** » November 1, 2004, 4:04 am

Link

check out video one.

miir · Post by **miir** » November 1, 2004, 11:41 am

OH NOS, KERRY IS A FLIP FLOPPER!!!11

Gimme a fucking break.

Since when is it considered a character flaw to change your opinion on something when new facts become available?

Isn't it a bigger character flaw to 'stick to your guns' after the facts become available then stubbornly and arrogantly refuse to admit you may have made a mistake?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » November 1, 2004, 12:26 pm

Yeah, my favourite part is they quote "I voted for the appropriation bill before I voted against it" as a flaw...

If the bill hadn't changed, it wouldn't have been up for another vote... the idea of changing bills is to get people to, oh my god, change their vote because the content has changed.

The people that don't bother to understand the logisitics of anyone's voting record (Kerry isn't the only one that can be made to look wishy washy) irritate me. The fuckstains that DO understand this and toss this shit around anyway, in a cynical attempt to sway the aforementioned morons, make me sick to my stomach.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 1, 2004, 1:13 pm

Bush threatened to veto the first version of the $87B appropriation bill.

the part that required that it roll back a tax cut to fund the war.

Reagan's tax cuts of 1981 were rolled back when it was obvious that increasing defense expenditures were necessary. In 82 and 83 they rolled cuts back.

the same thing needed to be done in 2003, and it is wildly ironic that Republicans propagandize somebody who voted for fiscal conservatism as "the most liberal member of Congress."

I think it shows you how they are largely bereft of any semblence of integrity in the Bush Cheney campaign.

the BIGGEST flip flop that any American has ever made regarding Terrorism and our national defense was made by George Bush.

George W. Bush 9/13/01 wrote:"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01

.

George W. Bush 3/13/02 wrote:"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)

rationalize that.

we'll be waiting.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » November 1, 2004, 1:19 pm

Voro - my hewo.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 1, 2004, 2:01 pm

Voronwë wrote:
the BIGGEST flip flop that any American has ever made regarding Terrorism and our national defense was made by George Bush.

George W. Bush 9/13/01 wrote:"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
.

George W. Bush 3/13/02 wrote:"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
rationalize that.

we'll be waiting.

That's easy. There hasn't been a terrorist attack in the United States since 911. Bush has kicked Al Qaeda's ass all over the globe. He was simply stating that Bin Laden wasn't a big factor in the decision making process of the bad guys anymore while he was on the run hiding in holes.

He wasn't concerned about him but didn't say he wasn't making every reasonable effort to find him. You've got to be careful about making a martyr out of him. Even if he was dead, it might be better to leave him buried under a pile of rubble instead of causing the fanatics to flip out.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 1, 2004, 2:10 pm

yeah, they should have made a big "Mission Accomplished" banner and put it up, cause they obviously took care of that priority...

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » November 1, 2004, 2:15 pm

Winnow wrote:
Voronwë wrote:
the BIGGEST flip flop that any American has ever made regarding Terrorism and our national defense was made by George Bush.

George W. Bush 9/13/01 wrote:"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
.

George W. Bush 3/13/02 wrote:"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)
rationalize that.

we'll be waiting.
That's easy. There hasn't been a terrorist attack in the United States since 911. Bush has kicked Al Qaeda's ass all over the globe. He was simply stating that Bin Laden wasn't a big factor in the decision making process of the bad guys anymore while he was on the run hiding in holes.

He wasn't concerned about him but didn't say he wasn't making every reasonable effort to find him. You've got to be careful about making a martyr out of him. Even if he was dead, it might be better to leave him buried under a pile of rubble instead of causing the fanatics to flip out.

pretty fucking weak

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 1, 2004, 2:21 pm

Tenuvil wrote:
pretty fucking weak

I don't think so. If you killed the president of the united states, would it do much to stop democracy? Not really.

If you bombed the shit out of Washington and killed 75 percent of the senators and congressmen, and half the governors of the 50 states, would that make a bigger impact on the functionality of the United States?

Liberals yell and scream over Bin Laden being alive because it's and easy mark for the campaign trail but Bush has done the right thing and finding one man in a rat hole is still a priority but is harder than you think.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 1, 2004, 2:27 pm

looks like he's staying in something more like the Four Seasons - Riyadh than a rat hole.

but maybe the rat holes you frequent have good lighting for TV shoots.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » November 1, 2004, 2:31 pm

Winnow, I'm not following your argument as to how the statements by Bush don't constitute a massive flip-flop.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 1, 2004, 2:32 pm

Voronwe stealing my quotes!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 1, 2004, 2:37 pm

Tenuvil wrote:Winnow, I'm not following your argument as to how the statements by Bush don't constitute a massive flip-flop.

It's taken out of context just like when Kerry jumped all over Bush saying the war couldn't be won on terror (taken out of context in that he was talking about the conventional definition of a war)

looks like he's staying in something more like the Four Seasons - Riyadh than a rat hole.

but maybe the rat holes you frequent have good lighting for TV shoots.

Smoke and mirrors!

noel · Post by **noel** » November 1, 2004, 2:38 pm

Winnow wrote:
Tenuvil wrote:Winnow, I'm not following your argument as to how the statements by Bush don't constitute a massive flip-flop.
It's taken out of context just like when Kerry jumped all over Bush saying the war couldn't be won on terror (taken out of context in that he was talking about the conventional definition of a war)

looks like he's staying in something more like the Four Seasons - Riyadh than a rat hole.

but maybe the rat holes you frequent have good lighting for TV shoots.
Smoke and mirrors!

HOW THE FUCK are those quotes out of context? They seem pretty fucking clear to me.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 1, 2004, 2:43 pm

noel wrote:
Winnow wrote:
Tenuvil wrote:Winnow, I'm not following your argument as to how the statements by Bush don't constitute a massive flip-flop.
It's taken out of context just like when Kerry jumped all over Bush saying the war couldn't be won on terror (taken out of context in that he was talking about the conventional definition of a war)

looks like he's staying in something more like the Four Seasons - Riyadh than a rat hole.

but maybe the rat holes you frequent have good lighting for TV shoots.
Smoke and mirrors!
HOW THE FUCK are those quotes out of context? They seem pretty fucking clear to me.

The same way the winning the war on terror quote was taken out of context for spin doctoring purposes.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 1, 2004, 2:45 pm

well taking quotes out of context, and outright lieing about them the way Bush/Cheney 04 are different things.

1. "global test"
2. "we want terrorism to be a nuissance"

but on a serious note how about not derailing the thread by spamming nonsense.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » November 1, 2004, 2:51 pm

Voronwë wrote:well taking quotes out of context, and outright lieing about them the way Bush/Cheney 04 are different things.

1. "global test"
2. "we want terrorism to be a nuissance"

but on a serious note how about not derailing the thread by spamming nonsense.

How is it derailing the thread when you said:

rationalize that.

we'll be waiting.

Expect it to go unchallenged? I was completely on topic in explaining a different angle on your quotes.

noel · Post by **noel** » November 1, 2004, 2:54 pm

You haven't explained a fucking thing. Bush has done a 180 degree shift, and you're not acknowledging it.

When someone want to talk about an issue: A) claiming there is no issue, or B) bringing up unrelated issues != arguing the issue.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » November 1, 2004, 3:03 pm

miir wrote:to change your opinion on something when new facts become available?

That pretty much describes Bush's quote on Bin Laden. While I'd love for us to catch him, I have to say it doesn't bother me all that much that we have him completely neutralized hiding in a cave somewhere while we're massacring Al Qaeda's entire leadership. It's funny, I remember reading speculation about how the "October surprise" would be Bin Laden being caught, and people on the left were saying "he's just a figurehead anyways, it wouldn't be a big deal." Now suddenly things are different...I wonder why?

Edit: Kerry does change his opinion because of new facts: poll numbers.

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » November 1, 2004, 3:20 pm

Winnow wrote:
Tenuvil wrote:
pretty fucking weak
I don't think so. If you killed the president of the united states, would it do much to stop democracy? Not really.

Yeah, its probably a lot more efficient to have the current presiden to sit another 4 years than to killl him if you wanna hurt the US democracy and the citizens civil rights.

Xzion · Post by **Xzion** » November 1, 2004, 5:57 pm

Brotha wrote:
miir wrote:to change your opinion on something when new facts become available?
That pretty much describes Bush's quote on Bin Laden. While I'd love for us to catch him, I have to say it doesn't bother me all that much that we have him completely neutralized hiding in a cave somewhere while we're massacring Al Qaeda's entire leadership. It's funny, I remember reading speculation about how the "October surprise" would be Bin Laden being caught, and people on the left were saying "he's just a figurehead anyways, it wouldn't be a big deal." Now suddenly things are different...I wonder why?

Edit: Kerry does change his opinion because of new facts: poll numbers.

Damn, you guys would try jusifty Osama's actions if he was our republican canidate...its more sick then sad, really

BUSH FUCKED UP...its not that hard to admit, even if you agree with him most of the time

Then of course, rational republicans who are able to see flaws and positives in any canidate are voting for kerry this year

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » November 1, 2004, 6:15 pm

BUSH FUCKED UP...its not that hard to admit

You have to understand the rationale to know why that statement is false. Everythign Bush does is by way of divine providence. God does not fuck up, therefor neither does his direct servant - GWB.

Then of course, rational republicans who are able to see flaws and positives in any canidate are voting for kerry this year

I agree. It is why I think this will be a Kerry landslide. Bible thumpers, however, are by definition not rational. Bush may not be the second coming, but he is doing his best to make it happen. (You can refer back to Akran questioning my thinking that the Rapture would be a bad thing - see the end of the world is A OK with the nutcases that are Bushes base).

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » November 1, 2004, 6:38 pm

What happened in spain? yah they are no threat to anyone any more

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 1, 2004, 6:55 pm

Pherr the Dorf wrote:What happened in spain? yah they are no threat to anyone any more

Spain tossed out the regime because they tried to blame the terrorist bombing on Basq seperatists instead of Al Qaeda.

It has been widely spun by Republican propagandists that Al Qaeda changed the Spanish election, but the administration there who was pro-Iraq war (when the vast majority of the population was not), tried to bullshit the public about the nature of the subway bombing, and that is why they lost.

quick summary: the bombing did not swing the election. The lieing about the bombing swung the election.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » November 1, 2004, 7:02 pm

Voronwë wrote:
Pherr the Dorf wrote:What happened in spain? yah they are no threat to anyone any more
Spain tossed out the regime because they tried to blame the terrorist bombing on Basq seperatists instead of Al Qaeda.

It has been widely spun by Republican propagandists that Al Qaeda changed the Spanish election, but the administration there who was pro-Iraq war (when the vast majority of the population was not), tried to bullshit the public about the nature of the subway bombing, and that is why they lost.

quick summary: the bombing did not swing the election. The lieing about the bombing swung the election.

The point is over that way... the point is AQ is still commiting major acts of terrorism

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » November 1, 2004, 7:21 pm

Voronwë wrote:
Pherr the Dorf wrote:What happened in spain? yah they are no threat to anyone any more
Spain tossed out the regime because they tried to blame the terrorist bombing on Basq seperatists instead of Al Qaeda.

It has been widely spun by Republican propagandists that Al Qaeda changed the Spanish election, but the administration there who was pro-Iraq war (when the vast majority of the population was not), tried to bullshit the public about the nature of the subway bombing, and that is why they lost.

quick summary: the bombing did not swing the election. The lieing about the bombing swung the election.

Do you have any poll numbers to back this up? There had to of been polls taken asking people why exactly they changed their minds on who they were going to vote for, but I can't seem to find any no matter how much googling I do.

I agree with you that them blaming ETA when the evidence pointed the other way was a big factor, but I really don't see how you can deny that there was a big "this wouldn't have happened if we hadn't of invaded Iraq" reaction from a population that was something like 90 percent against the war.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » November 1, 2004, 7:23 pm

no i'm just going on what I heard 'experts' interviewed at the time of the election saying on European broadcasts.

assuming my memory is correct as well.