All Ghosts are Dead...

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » October 21, 2004, 1:17 am

I knew ARod would be the Anti-Babe - at least as far as Yankees v RedSox go.

How RedSoxian of the Yankees to suffer the worst choke in playoff history. Absolutely amazing.

Early prediction: World Series goes 7, with game 6 being a memorable affair.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » October 21, 2004, 1:43 am

the rest will do the bullpen a load of good

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 21, 2004, 8:46 am

A-rod is a team killer. He kills any magic or chemistry a team has. I am so fucking glad the Yankees ended up with him so they could have Steinbrenner going crazy and have everyone in that franchise fearing for their job.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 21, 2004, 9:06 am

Enjoy it while it lasts. You'll still lose the World Series and next year it is back to normal. And the curse isn't broken until you win the World Series!

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » October 21, 2004, 10:20 am

You seem to be under the impression that all these posters are Red Sox fans. Some may be, but most just hate the Yankees and love to see them commit the biggest collapse in post season baseball history!

Was it Lupica that coined "Curse of the Bamboonie". Releasing Aaron Boone (the man that beat the BoSox last year in GAME 7 of the ALCS) has brought the Yankees their very own curse. May it last as long as the curse of the bambino.

GO CARDS!

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 21, 2004, 10:32 am

Pherr, you have any shots of Steinbrenner in his box last night? I can see him torturing small animals throughout the remainder of the playoffs.

Well, Cashman is certainly going to be fired. Brown and Vasquez and even Gordon certainly lived up to their expectations I'm sure. 23 mil a year for first the two of them combined and little league pitchers could have done a better job. Loaiza being the only guy who could actually get an out proves just how badly they performed. Smart move letting Pettite go, real smart. Now his best buddy is going to blank the Cards over 7 and pitch in the world series.
Now they'll probably go after Beltran. Great, more bats to be shut down in the post-season.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » October 21, 2004, 10:53 am

Chidoro wrote:Now they'll probably go after Beltran. Great, more bats to be shut down in the post-season.

Word here in Houston is that the Astros organization is going to great lengths to retain Beltran through at least next year.

XunilTlatoani · Post by **XunilTlatoani** » October 21, 2004, 11:00 am

I hate how everyone is saying this morning that the curse is dead....how about you win the world series before you put that baby to rest?

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » October 21, 2004, 11:15 am

sour grapes.

Seriously, whoever wins the NL won't be as much of a challenge as the Yankees were. Not only were the Sox playing an excellent ball club, they were battling with the intangible element of being in the Yankees' shadow for almost 100 years.

Everything changes with time and patience. It wasn't so long ago that the Patriots were the doormat of the AFC East and now they're the dominant team in the NFL. Now it seems is the Red Sox' time to shine, they have incredible momentum after that win.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 21, 2004, 11:20 am

The Red Sox will be strong favorites in the World Series.

Their rotation is set up perfectly

Schilling v. Oswalt or some chump
Pedro v. some chump or some chump
Lowe v Clemens or some chump
Wakefield/Arroyo (arguably chumps) v. some chump or some chump

rinse, repeat

The Red Sox bullpen is MUCH stronger than either the Cards or Astros pen. The Red Sox lineup is just as good as Houston's, and maybe almost as good as the Cardinals. THe Cards rotation is extremely vulnerable, and the Astros is not as strong as the Red Sox's.

Some potential issues are that if Schilling can't continue to gut it out, there is big trouble. Pedro might want to show up as Pedro for sure.

It will be very important for the NL team to win one of the first two games in Boston, because the Red Sox are absolutely rolling on momentum now. THe one major problem they had in the ALCS (top of order not hitting) has evaporated.

Both NL teams are damn good, but I still think Boston is better than either of them, and they have been tested by fire. Last year's bitter disappointment and this year's redemption.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 21, 2004, 11:29 am

Tenuvil wrote:Seriously, whoever wins the NL won't be as much of a challenge as the Yankees were. Not only were the Sox playing an excellent ball club, they were battling with the intangible element of being in the Yankees' shadow for almost 100 years.

I think Boston would kill the Cards but Houston is a very very good team. Their starting pitching matches up favorably and their lineup is anything but a slouch. In addition, their momentum is through the roof as well. Beating St Louis in St Louis is going to be tough though tonight as it's also a terrific baseball town and the place goes absolutely berserk.

Funny, I was listening to the final at bat on the radio this morning and that game and series is enormously exciting yet you can't even find it on the sports pages. It's practically buried w/ the hockey strike heh

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 21, 2004, 11:36 am

no i didnt have any money on the game Chidoro =)

betting on baseball is crazy as it is

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » October 21, 2004, 11:40 am

Chidoro wrote:
Tenuvil wrote:Seriously, whoever wins the NL won't be as much of a challenge as the Yankees were. Not only were the Sox playing an excellent ball club, they were battling with the intangible element of being in the Yankees' shadow for almost 100 years.

I think Boston would kill the Cards but Houston is a very very good team. Their starting pitching matches up favorably and their lineup is anything but a slouch. In addition, their momentum is through the roof as well. Beating St Louis in St Louis is going to be tough though tonight as it's also a terrific baseball town and the place goes absolutely berserk.

Funny, I was listening to the final at bat on the radio this morning and that game and series is enormously exciting yet you can't even find it on the sports pages. It's practically buried w/ the hockey strike heh

The Astros have been a team of contrasts this year. Very strong start, then a complete reversal (I think they were in last place in their division after the All Star break), then they caught fire in mid August. The Chronicle was very down on the team until they turned things around. Now this city is full of fair weather fans who were slagging the 'stros when they were down and now can't climb aboard the bandwagon fast enough.

My prediction is Astros win tonight, Sox win championship in 5 games. Besides I *need* the Astros to win so I can see a game or 2 at Minute Maid Park!

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » October 21, 2004, 11:55 am

Cards will win the World Series thanks to Williams, Morris, Suppan and Pujols.

... and Babe Ruth.

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » October 21, 2004, 11:55 am

One thing to consider: Schilling will not and can not pitch in either Houston or St Loius (accept for maybe an inning in relief) Theres no way that man will be able to bat and run the bases.
That probably means Schilling wont be the Game 1 starter. I say he goes Game 2, and if necessary Game 6. Pedros gonna have to be the big dog in this series. Games 1 and 5. And if things are desperate enough possibly pitch in Game 7

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » October 21, 2004, 11:58 am

Still...

Curse of the Bambino replaced by Curse of the Clemento?

It would suck, verily, if Roger "nice guy" Clemens put on some miracle shit and won 3 perfect games in the WS (1,4,7 if he started, which he won't but I fear!)

The Sox former trades bite them in the ass again - maybe.

miir · Post by **miir** » October 21, 2004, 12:00 pm

I don't even like baseball, but man... what a series!

Go Sox!

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 21, 2004, 12:02 pm

If the NL team was smart, they would intentionally walk Schilling and make him run the bases or be removed for a pinch runner in the early innings.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 21, 2004, 12:08 pm

Homercles wrote:One thing to consider: Schilling will not and can not pitch in either Houston or St Loius (accept for maybe an inning in relief) Theres no way that man will be able to bat and run the bases.
That probably means Schilling wont be the Game 1 starter. I say he goes Game 2, and if necessary Game 6. Pedros gonna have to be the big dog in this series. Games 1 and 5. And if things are desperate enough possibly pitch in Game 7

i totally disagree about Schilling. He is so much better than any alternative for Game 5 that i would concede 3 outs if I were Francona to have him on the mound.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » October 21, 2004, 12:14 pm

Toshira wrote:Still...

Curse of the Bambino replaced by Curse of the Clemento?

It would suck, verily, if Roger "nice guy" Clemens put on some miracle shit and won 3 perfect games in the WS (1,4,7 if he started, which he won't but I fear!)

Since when is Clemens a nice guy, or was that irony? I am glad that Clemens has said he'll be wearing the Astros logo on his hat in the Hall of Fame. It would have sucked to see his plaque with a Yankers logo on it

Toshira wrote:The Sox former trades bite them in the ass again - maybe.

Hell Tosh, if Tom Gordon beat the Sox last night that would have been applicable too. There've been too many player trades for that to be applicable...and by all accounts Clemens was seriously at odds with Sox management at the time he requested to be traded.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 21, 2004, 12:20 pm

Players can't pick the logo that goes on their hat in Cooperstown. The Hall of Fame does it. The 1986 season was really defining for Clemens, so i wouldn't be surprised if he went in as a member of the Red Sox.

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » October 21, 2004, 12:31 pm

I think we're both right.

Who decides what team logo will be used on induction plaques?

The choice of which team’s logo appears on a player’s plaque is the Museum's decision, though we always consider the wishes of an inductee. As a history museum and as such, it's important that the logo be emblematic of the historical accomplishments of that player's career. A player's election to the Hall of Fame is a career achievement, and as such, every team for whom he played is listed on the plaque; however, the logo selection is based on where that player makes his most indelible mark. Visit our Hall of Fame plaque section to see the plaques of your favorite Hall of Fame members.

Clemens had a profound effect on every team he pitched for, including the 'stros. I'm sure the Hall will let a player of his stature use whatever logo he desires.

miir · Post by **miir** » October 21, 2004, 12:34 pm

I hope to hell he doesn't wear a Jays logo.

I totally hated Clemens when he played for Toronto.

Ogbar · Post by **Ogbar** » October 21, 2004, 1:05 pm

I thought Clemens signed with Toronto as a free agent (that is, not traded). Not that it matters - it has become common fodder on the local airwaves how badly Dan Duquette screwed some things up while serving as the Sox GM, his assessment of Clemens being high on the list.

Speaking of the local airwaves, they are already speculating that there is no way in hell Schilling will pitch any away games, for the very reason of avoiding the extra wear and tear on his frankenankle. My prediction for Schilling: game 2, and game 7, if necessary.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » October 21, 2004, 1:14 pm

I disagree that the Red Sox would be significant favorites over the NL teams.

Check the lineups:

C: Jason Varitek vs Mike Matheny versus Brad Ausmus.
Advantage: Red Sox - Astros - Cardinals

1B: Millar/Mientkiewicz vs Albert Pujols vs Jeff Bagwell
Advantage: Cardinals (Astros and Red Sox push)

2B: Mark Bellhorn vs Tony Womack vs Jeff Kent
Advantage: Tough to say... Kent is the best hitter but is not a good defender. Womack is a journeyman who has produced this year. Bellhorn has come up with some clutch hits.

SS: Orlando Cabrera vs Edgar Renteria vs Jose Vizcaino
Advantage: Cardinals - Red Sox - Astros

3B: Bill Mueller vs Scott Rolen vs Morgan Ensberg
Advantage: Cardinals - Red Sox - Astros (even with Rolen's weak postseason)

LF: Manny Ramirez vs Reggie Sanders vs Craig Biggio
Advantage: Red Sox - (Sanders for Biggio is a wash)

CF: Johnny Damon vs Jim Edmonds vs Carlos Beltran
Advantage: Astros - Cardinals - Red Sox (although those are some good center fielders)

RF: Trot Nixon vs Larry Walker vs Lance Berkman
Advantage: Astros - Cardinals - Red Sox (more good outfielders)

DH: David Ortiz vs god knows who
Advantage: Red Sox

Looking at those players, I feel pretty strongly that the Cardinals have the best lineup. Playing the Cardinals, you have to deal with Walker followed by Pujols followed by Edmonds followed by Rolen. That's a nasty heart of the lineup. The Red Sox trot out Ramirez-Ortiz-Millar-Varitek, but honestly, I'd rather throw to those guys than the Cardinals.

Another big issue for the Red Sox is David Ortiz. It'll be no problem in the home games, but what will they do when they play in a National League park? He can't DH there. If they put him at first base, then they have a terrible defensive first baseman and they deprive themselves of Millar's bat in their lineup. I'd worry about it.

And the Astros certainly aren't too shabby either. Lance Berkman and Carlos Beltran are both playing great offensive ball. David Ortiz is the only guy the Red Sox have who's as hot as they are. Throw in Bagwell Biggio and Kent and the Astros are dangerous.

So that's offense. On defense, the Red Sox are definitely better than they used to be, but they're still not at the level of the Cardinals. Orlando Cabrera is an exceptional shortstop, but so is Edgar Renteria. Mientkiewicz is a great first baseman, but so is Albert Pujols, and Millar and Ortiz are decidedly poor first basemen. Scott Rolen is far better than Bill Mueller, Larry Walker is far better than Trot Nixon, and Jim Edmonds has better range and twice the arm of Johnny Damon. I don't know enough about the Astros defense to really say anything about it.

Pitching:

The Red Sox and the Astros both have two horses and a back end full of questions. I know that everyone feels great about the Red Sox pitching right now, but consider this:

1. Curt Schilling pitched a great game 6, but that doesn't change the fact that he got shelled in game 1 and he's pitching with a serious injury. Are you confident that he'll be healthy enough to go out and pitch two starts at the Curt Schilling level we've come to expect?
2. Pedro Martinez gave up two runs in one inning of relief and lost game 2. He probably won't remain with the Red Sox after this season and he's years removed from the dominance of his past.
3. Derek Lowe is very inconsistent. Don't let his fantastic game 7 make you ignore the little things, like his record and his ERA.
4. Bronson Arroyo was the starting pitcher when the Yankees shelled the Red Sox 19-8.
5. Tim Wakefield is a knuckleball specialist.

At this point, I would rather roll out Clemens and Oswalt than Schilling and Pedro. The performances that the back-end starters bring will be crucial.

The Cardinals don't have a starting pitcher the caliber of any of the Red Sox or Astros top guys. However, their whole rotation is full of guys that I would happily take over Munro or Backe or Wakefield or Lowe. If they can get consistent performances from their starting pitching, they'll be in a position to win games with their lineup and defense.

Brad Lidge has been great, but the Astros don't have a lot of pen depth. The Cardinals have (some) depth but little talent. The Sox have a lefty, a righty, and a closer, and they should be all right as long as they don't have to throw too many innings.

So the Cardinals have the best offense and defense but shaky pitching. The Astros have the best starting pitching, a good closer, and a solid offense. The Red Sox are good at everything but have a bunch of question marks.

Things to keep an eye on:
-How will the Red Sox balance Ortiz/Millar/Mientkiewicz, especially in road games?
-Will the Sox keep their momentum rolling or suffer a post-Yankee collapse?
-What happened to Scott Rolen?
-If Carlos Beltran can beat the Red Sox, how much more valuable does he become to Steinbrenner?

In conclusion, I clearly wanted to spend an hour writing about baseball instead of spending an hour writing my research paper. If anyone has a question which would be perfectly answered by another pointless baseball diatribe, please ask it so I can not write my paper for another hour.

Prediction:

Cardinals 7, Astros 4

Cardinals over Red Sox in 6

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 21, 2004, 1:20 pm

Clemens is going to get rocked harder than he did the 1st inning of the all-star game.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 21, 2004, 1:35 pm

That was pretty in depth. I wouldn't call Pujols a great 1st baseman fielding-wise.

I really think more emphasis needs to be placed on the pitching. While the Cards definitely have a modern day murder's row, the Sox and the Stros are certainly good enough to exploit bad pitching. And because it's a best out of seven, you only really need two dominant starters a setup guy and a good closer to win it all. That's why, out of the three, I would fear the Astros more than anyone else.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 21, 2004, 1:45 pm

Pitching is the big issue with the Cardinals. I wasnt suggesting at all that the Red Sox (at least wasnt trying to) had as good of a lineup as either NL team. I think they have as good of a lineup as Houston. I think they have a better rotation than either NL team.

I would start Schilling in Game 1, and I think it is assinine not to. If you want to hold him out of Game 5 for Game 6 that is fine. But I would start him in Game 5 in Houston, and not let him swing the bat. like i said, i'll take the 3 outs if he can get me to the 7th inning with a lead.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 21, 2004, 1:57 pm

The Cards remind me a lot of the Boston Anaheim matchup. Fucking brutal bats, and a fucking meat buffet rotation and bullpen.

Should St Louis do it tonite, the key for Boston will be getting the bats going EARLY. Wear their weaker pitching down before their stronger bats can wear yours down.

I think Houston is a much closer matchup, as far as lineups/rotations/etc.

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » October 21, 2004, 3:06 pm

Come now Voro. Youve lost your National League mind if you think Schilling would get a free pass if he were to step up to the plate. No way Larussa would say "just groove three pitches down the center of the plate and let Schilling take a seat."

Not a chance! If Schilling were to step into that box, you can bet hes gonna get a few pitches coming at him. Theyre gonna make him move! Hop out of the way of a low and inside pitch. Drop to ass on a high and inside pitch. Whatever they can do to make him put extra pressure on that ankle, it will be done. They may even walk him intentionally just so he has to stay on his feet that much longer. And you can bet if he does find himself on first base, the pitcher will be going over there repeatedly. Make him move back and forth, back and forth, back and forth. And god forbid Damon gets a hit behind him and Kurt has to run the bases.

Youre also assuming that the Astros or Cards will come into the series with the same mindset as the Yankees. That mindset being "Swing for the fences". Again, youve lost the National League mindset. The Cards especially will continue to push Schillings limits. Offensively theyll do it with the bunt. Renteria or Biggio (whomever makes it) will no doubt be bunting the ball at Schilling. Again, making him put more stress on that ankle. Just the motion of squaring around to bunt causes Schill to put himself in position to field. More pressure on the ankle.
Theyll put down sacrifice bunts just to make Schilling move. The Yankees failed in this aspect. They had a horrible offense gameplan against Schilling, and he ate them up. The Cards or Astros will come at him...aggressively. Theyll make him field his position. This in itself will lessen his effectiveness even in Boston. Theyll put his ankle under so much pressure he may not be able to get out of the 5th.

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 21, 2004, 3:27 pm

If they're going to walk him and refuse to strike him out, what says he just can't hobble around the bases until they throw him out? That's also assuming the bases are even empty when it's his turn. Heh, he's going to be on ridiculous amount of pain killers again. His right ankle isn't exposed at the plate so I wouldn't think he'd give a shit if the ball was coming at him.
Also, it's not the easiest thing to do to bunt a sinker or an up and in. If he has his control, you can bet bunting at the mound isn't a gimme

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 21, 2004, 3:41 pm

Schilling will not be pitching in an NL park anyway. The AL won the All Star game and have home field. Schilling is set to start game 2 and would be pitching again in game 6 or 7....which would also be at Boston. Nothing to see here.....move along.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » October 21, 2004, 3:50 pm

Tenuvil wrote: Since when is Clemens a nice guy, or was that irony? I am glad that Clemens has said he'll be wearing the Astros logo on his hat in the Hall of Fame. It would have sucked to see his plaque with a Yankers logo on it

Complete Irony. I respect a brush-back pitch. I don't respect a pitcher who throws brush-backs at a player's head. Clemens is a fucking goon - the shit stain on the toilet bowl of baseball that keeps it from ever looking shiny fresh.

I mean, hey, Ty Cobb used to sharpen his cleats before games to intimidate second basemen should he slide into them to break up the DP (no Kilmoll, not that DP). But that was a different era.

Fuck Roger. That is all.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 21, 2004, 3:56 pm

I am betting Ty Cobb would have broken up that kind of DP too if he had seen 2 black players doing it!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 21, 2004, 4:38 pm

National League mindset? not swinging for the fences?

The NLCS broke an LCS record for combined home runs in a playoff series sometime in Game 5 i believe...

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » October 21, 2004, 5:00 pm

ummmm Clemens pitches tonight... he could pitch game 3 and 7 at best

masteen · Post by **masteen** » October 21, 2004, 5:05 pm

I like nothing better than seeing a million dollar pussy take a fastball to the cranium. Don't bitch to me about your precious career when you make more in a season than most Americans will see in their entire lives.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 21, 2004, 7:04 pm

masteen wrote:I like nothing better than seeing a million dollar pussy take a fastball to the cranium. Don't bitch to me about your precious career when you make more in a season than most Americans will see in their entire lives.

Yeah cheering for somebody getting hurt is cool!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » October 21, 2004, 7:28 pm

I just want to see Clemens take one off the melon.

He sooooo has it coming!

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 21, 2004, 11:57 pm

While time is running out on Houston, Oswalt really has a wicked delivery. It'd be a shame not to see him in a full game once more.

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » October 22, 2004, 2:54 am

Yeah, Kirby Puckett really deserved to have his career cut short by being hit in the head with a pitch.

Christ, just go to Iraq and sniff for roadside bombs, ok, Mr. Humanity?

Waran · Post by **Waran** » October 22, 2004, 3:34 am

Great season for the Astros, looking forward to facing them first thing next season.

Setting up to be a great World Series! Added bonus, I get to go to the games in STL

See you in Boston! Good luck Red Sox

And Tenuvil, sorry to disappoint your prediction there, introducing my new signature!!!

Tenuvil · Post by **Tenuvil** » October 22, 2004, 9:55 am

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery bud!

And may the best team win!

xZiBiT · Post by **xZiBiT** » October 22, 2004, 2:32 pm

I just want to point out the fact that home field advantage is decided in the allstar game is the biggest crock of shit since the strike.

Playing and winning day in and day out should be the deciding factor for determine homefield advantage not some exhibition game that no one takes seriously.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » October 23, 2004, 1:21 am

Ah well, there's always next year! Even without Clemens back, Pettite, Oswalt and Backe should make a pretty good 1-2-3.

Of course, the'Stros may let Kent go so they can afford Beltran, or so they can afford to re-sign Berkman and Oswalt to extensions. Still, you never know what a new year can bring.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 23, 2004, 10:03 am

xZiBiT wrote:I just want to point out the fact that home field advantage is decided in the allstar game is the biggest crock of shit since the strike.

Playing and winning day in and day out should be the deciding factor for determine homefield advantage not some exhibition game that no one takes seriously.

The point of it is to make the All Star game not some exhibition game that noone takes seriously.

Mplor · Post by **Mplor** » October 23, 2004, 7:39 pm

xZiBiT wrote:I just want to point out the fact that home field advantage is decided in the allstar game is the biggest crock of shit since the strike.

Playing and winning day in and day out should be the deciding factor for determine homefield advantage not some exhibition game that no one takes seriously.

Home field advantage in the World Series has never been determined by regular season records. It alternated each year between the leagues no matter who was playing.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » October 24, 2004, 2:15 am

Mplor wrote:
xZiBiT wrote:I just want to point out the fact that home field advantage is decided in the allstar game is the biggest crock of shit since the strike.

Playing and winning day in and day out should be the deciding factor for determine homefield advantage not some exhibition game that no one takes seriously.
Home field advantage in the World Series has never been determined by regular season records. It alternated each year between the leagues no matter who was playing.

'

oddly enough this was the AL's turn as well