this whole cheney daughter thing

[Voronwë]

is it just me or is this the wierdest little segment of the election so far. And i again say, that I have been most impressed by Cheney speaking about his daughter considering the GOPs stance on homosexuality. The timing of his remarks ahead of the RNC was pretty bold and impressive.

what is wierd to me is that the Cheneys are kind of attacking the Kerry campaign for "exploiting" the VPs daughter for a political tool, etc.

It just seems like a strange sidebar. I dont even remember what Kerry said about her in the debate. As for Edwards talking about it...he was asked a question specifically about it by the debate moderator...LOL...and i think he said really nice things that the VP thanked him for saying.

Anyway, so the thing has escalated into Lynn Cheney (mom) calling Kerry out and saying she's all mad. And then Edwards' wife says she's overreacting.

It has taken on this kind of bizarre life of its own, and it is like opposite day. The Democrats are in a situation where they are trying to simply not utter the word "gay" for a couple days, and the Republicans are defending a homosexual.

i just think it is kind of an interesting little blip in this massive campaign process. I dont think it is going to effect votes on either side, and outside of a bit of media fodder probably has no value at all.

Anyway, kind of funny.

[Sionistic]

shes an official on the bushcheney campaign, so its fair game to me

[Voronwë]

i'm not even saying anything about that. I mean i agree with you on one level. She is a grown up who is a political operative in the Republican party from a political family. She knows the environment she has chosen to work in.

I think that is a valid point. i'm more speaking about the strangeness of it all rather than which side is right on this and which side is wrong. To me it isnt a real issue, but is funny to watch.

[archeiron]

This is just part of the new MTv show, "The Real World: Washington". The drama is all for votes and ratings.

[Siji]

Bush's wife and Kerry's wife need to have a naked mud wrestling contest. Then Bush's daughters and Kerry's daughters need to have a naked Jello wrestling contest. The losers get to suck off random lottery winners from this message board.

We'll film it, send it to Michael Moore and make millions.

[Banned]

Mary Cheney should be taken out into the back alley and shot for being the spawn of Sodom that she is.

[Dregor Thule]

Ok, who is Pedokal?

[miir]

Ok, who is Pedokal?

Sorry Dregor, Pedokal doesn't go for guys older than 12.

[Drinsic Darkwood]

hahahaha, that's great

[Winnow]

i'm not even saying anything about that. I mean i agree with you on one level. She is a grown up who is a political operative in the Republican party from a political family. She knows the environment she has chosen to work in.

I think that is a valid point. i'm more speaking about the strangeness of it all rather than which side is right on this and which side is wrong. To me it isnt a real issue, but is funny to watch.

If it's not a big deal, why did Kerry even mention it? He intentionally threw in the lesbian comment almost out of the flow of the discussion to make sure he got it in.

Again, I think it actually helps Bush but I find it odd that Kerry would desparately try to take a few super radical votes...I think he'll lose a few moderate ones in the process. It's a good thing for gays to have Cheneys daughter around...you can tell it's softening the republicans a bit on the issue. I say it's a positive for Bush.

[Lohrno]

If it's not a big deal, why did Kerry even mention it? He intentionally threw in the lesbian comment almost out of the flow of the discussion to make sure he got it in.

Again, I think it actually helps Bush but I find it odd that Kerry would desparately try to take a few super radical votes...I think he'll lose a few moderate ones in the process. It's a good thing for gays to have Cheneys daughter around...you can tell it's softening the republicans a bit on the issue. I say it's a positive for Bush.

I think he wanted to show that not necessarily everyone in the Bush camp agrees with his fundamentalist views.

-=Lohrno

[Rekaar.]

It's one of those unwritten rules of politics - you don't drag children into it.

How would you react if the situation were reversed?

Bush: I know how difficult it can be to have divorced parents. Well I don't know from personal experience, but I'm sure the Senator's daughters would agree with me that learning to call someone else "mom" is a hard thing to go through. What's tehir nickname for her? oh yes, "Step Money." Man that's got to be painful.

It'd be tasteless wouldn't it. It'd outrage you wouldn't it. Drop the Kerry walks on water mentality please =p

[miir]

It's one of those unwritten rules of politics - you don't drag children into it.

Who is Cheney's campaign manager?


You fucking idiot.

[Lohrno]

It's one of those unwritten rules of politics - you don't drag children into it.

How would you react if the situation were reversed?

Bush: I know how difficult it can be to have divorced parents. Well I don't know from personal experience, but I'm sure the Senator's daughters would agree with me that learning to call someone else "mom" is a hard thing to go through. What's tehir nickname for her? oh yes, "Step Money." Man that's got to be painful.

It'd be tasteless wouldn't it. It'd outrage you wouldn't it. Drop the Kerry walks on water mentality please =p

If you dropped the "Step Money" comment it would be fine. Kerry didn't say she was a fag. I'm willing to acknowledge the Kerry camp's faults, but I don't think this is one of them. The distortion of some facts is though like the 90% of casualties thing. He would have been better off simply quoting the death counts, and noting how things are getting worse.

-=Lohrno

[Rekaar.]

Yeah that's something that drives me nuts on both sides, why not just use the actual numbers and take away and potential for someone to challenge your credibility? Must be a good reason they always exaggerate but damn it irks me.

[Lohrno]

Yeah that's something that drives me nuts on both sides, why not just use the actual numbers and take away and potential for someone to challenge your credibility? Must be a good reason they always exaggerate but damn it irks me.

Yes, or at the very least clarify it more. Like 90% of the casualties of the countries that went into Iraq...

But people love their statistics fed to them. =D

-=Lohrno

[Winnow]

What if Bush said something like, "I know the Kerry daughters sleep around but they are responsible and have responsible partners that use protection. I respect their choice to sleep around while using propper protection. It is a choice."

[Lohrno]

What if Bush said something like, "I know the Kerry daughters sleep around but they are responsible and have responsible partners that use protection. I respect their choice to sleep around while using propper protection. It is a choice."

Totally fine if it's true and they've as much as said so. If it's not, then it starts to cross the line. It's no secret that Cheney's daughter is gay, we knew this before the debates. If Cheney's daughter was not gay and he said she was that would definitely have crossed the line.

-=Lohrno

[Winnow]

What if Bush said something like, "I know the Kerry daughters sleep around but they are responsible and have responsible partners that use protection. I respect their choice to sleep around while using propper protection. It is a choice."

Totally fine if it's true and they've as much as said so. If it's not, then it starts to cross the line. It's no secret that Cheney's daughter is gay, we knew this before the debates. If Cheney's daughter was not gay and he said she was that would definitely have crossed the line.

-=Lohrno

You just don't get it...there's no need to mention lifestyles...some would be turned off by the Kerry daughters sleeping around before marriage...there's no need to bring the children of the candidates into the debate. It's tacky and testeless.

[miir]

What exactly did Keery say during the debate about Cheney's campaign manager?

[Lohrno]

You just don't get it...there's no need to mention lifestyles...some would be turned off by the Kerry daughters sleeping around before marriage...there's no need to bring the children of the candidates into the debate. It's tacky and testeless.

When they are debating domestic issues and/or issues that affect lifestyles it may help to have examples. You can't debate things like this in a vacuum. These are issues that affect all of us, from the elected's family to the families of factory workers. It really wouldn't be different if the issue were the Iraq war, and Mary went to some protests, and Kerry pointed that out. Just so long as it's not done in a mudslinging way. And in my opinion it definitely has not been.

-=Lohrno

[Xatrei]

What exactly did Keery say during the debate about Cheney's campaign manager?

Here is the segement of the 3rd debate that started this silliness:

SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here.

Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that.

And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live.

And that's to be honored.

But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman.

I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution.

It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution.

I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act.

My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman.

But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests.

SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?

KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it.

And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them.

I think we have to respect that.

The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people.

You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth.

Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately.

[miir]

*shrug*

What's the big deal?
His comment was in context and directly relating to the question posed.

[Xatrei]

*shrug*

What's the big deal?
His comment was in context and directly relating to the question posed.

My thoughts exactly.

[Thess]

Cheney thanked Edwards for saying nice things about his family when he brought up Mary Cheney.

Alan Keyes at the republican convention said that Mary Cheney is a selfish hedonist. (nothing was said by the Cheney's)

Kerry brought her up - he's the devil.

[Rekaar.]

Not sure what bearing that has on them being offended by their daughter being continually brought out as a political tool to further their competitor's campaign.

[Brotha]

Here's pretty much the whole situation, if you want to see it. I just copy/pasted this from a NRO blog, so it has some opinion, but it has all that happened in it:

Bob Schieffer's question (which I wasn't really a fan of) was about whether the candidates felt homosexuality is a choice or a way that people are born. Let's go to the transcript:

SCHIEFFER: Mr. President, let's get back to economic issues. But let's shift to some other questions here. Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?
Bush gives his answer, which is essentially, "I don't know." Schieffer prompts Kerry for his response.
KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

By the second sentence, Kerry feels a need to point out that Dick Cheney — who is not who Kerry is debating, President Bush is his opponent — has a lesbian daughter. And who the hell is John Kerry to say what answer Mary Cheney would give? And he doesn't even call her by her name. She's just "Dick Cheney's daughter."
Now let's go back to the Vice Presidential debate.

IFILL: The next question goes to you, Mr. Vice President. I want to read something you said four years ago at this very setting: "Freedom means freedom for everybody." You said it again recently when you were asked about legalizing same-sex unions. And you used your family's experience as a context for your remarks. Can you describe then your administration's support for a constitutional ban on same-sex unions?
Granted, Ifill made the reference to "your family's experience." But look closely at Cheney's answer:

CHENEY: Gwen, you're right, four years ago in this debate, the subject came up. And I said then and I believe today that freedom does mean freedom for everybody. People ought to be free to choose any arrangement they want. It's really no one else's business.

That's a separate question from the issue of whether or not government should sanction or approve or give some sort of authorization, if you will, to these relationships.

Traditionally, that's been an issue for the states. States have regulated marriage, if you will. That would be my preference.

In effect, what's happened is that in recent months, especially in Massachusetts, but also in California, but in Massachusetts we had the Massachusetts Supreme Court direct the state of — the legislature of Massachusetts to modify their constitution to allow gay marriage.

And the fact is that the president felt that it was important to make it clear that that's the wrong way to go, as far as he's concerned.

Now, he sets the policy for this administration, and I support the president.


What words are missing from this answer? "Mary." "Family." "Daughter." In fact, the phrase, "It's really no one else's business" does come up. Dick Cheney doesn’t mention his daughter. He’s not campaigning on it, he’s not using her as a political prop, he doesn’t cite his family experience. Now let’s look at John Edwards’ response:

EDWARDS: Yes. Let me say first, on an issue that the vice president said in his last answer before we got to this question, talking about tax policy, the country needs to know that under what they have put in place and want to put in place, a millionaire sitting by their swimming pool, collecting their statements to see how much money they're making, make their money from dividends, pays a lower tax rate than the men and women who are receiving paychecks for serving on the ground in Iraq.

Now, they may think that's right. John Kerry and I do not.We don't just value wealth, which they do. We value work in this country. And it is a fundamental value difference between them and us.

Now, as to this question, let me say first that I think the vice president and his wife love their daughter.


Where the hell did that come from? The question was about Vice President Cheney’s remarks on the subject in the past and the administration’s position. There was an oblique reference to his “family’s experience.” Why did John Edwards treat this as an excuse to assess whether the Vice President loves his daughters? Just who does John Edwards think he is to think he’s got the right to judge the Vice President as a father?

Both Kerry and Edwards felt a need to bring up Mary Cheney's lifestyle, in their very first words about the topic of gay marriage. You think that's cooncidence?

If you thought it was tasteless and cruel for some Republicans, as well as Saturday Night Live, to make fun of Chelsea Clinton, I cannot understand how you can think it's okay for Edwards and Kerry to consistently drag Mary Cheney into this debate in order to score political points.

Unless you think family members are fair game in politics. And if you do, well... then, in my humble opinion, you're a repugnant human being.

UPDATE: Kerry Spot reader Patrick observes another important exchange in the veep debate:

CHENEY: Well, Gwen, let me simply thank the senator for the kind words he said about my family and our daughter.
I appreciate that very much.

IFILL: That's it?

CHENEY: That's it.

IFILL: OK, then we'll move on to the next question.

Note - Cheney did not bring up his daughter and did not want to politicize her or make her an issue. So yes he thanked Edwards, but, as I remember it, did not look pleased and more importantly was uncomfortable with bringing his daughter into the campaign rhetoric and to Ifill's surprise, wanted to drop the subject.

[Voronwë]

isnt it kind of wierd that the Republican establishment didnt go after Allen Keyes (Republican senate candidate in IL) barely at all when he said Mary Cheney was a "selfish hedonist".

[Drasta]

umm i like what kerry said ...

[Xzion-]

The family getting mad PROOVES that they are bigoted hipocrites

The dems say nice things about his family and his lesbian daughter, and the gop takes it as an INSULT that Cheneys daughter is lesbian

BTW it was great at bill and teds haloween horror night show, they had bush and kerry on there and everytime the bush character opened his mouth everyone started boo'ing
A few claps when they said "the ex president and the future ex president" in part of the skit too!

[Winnow]

isnt it kind of wierd that the Republican establishment didnt go after Allen Keyes (Republican senate candidate in IL) barely at all when he said Mary Cheney was a "selfish hedonist".

Not at all. This is an election year. You don't go after your fucked up brother in law, you go after your opponent. You have your brother in law see a doctor and give him some nice medicine.

On a more serious note, Alan Keys isn't one of the candidates. Should Dick Cheney go after you if you said something derogatory about his daughter too? Alan Keys is fucked up. Zel Miller is fucked up. Both sides have fucked up people. Lets focus on the primary candidates and what they are saying in the debates that the majority of americans will be hearing.

[Xzion-]

isnt it kind of wierd that the Republican establishment didnt go after Allen Keyes (Republican senate candidate in IL) barely at all when he said Mary Cheney was a "selfish hedonist".

Not at all. This is an election year. You don't go after your fucked up brother in law, you go after your opponent. You have your brother in law see a doctor and give him some nice medicine.

On a more serious note, Alan Keys isn't one of the candidates. Should Dick Cheney go after you if you said something derogatory about his daughter too? Alan Keys is fucked up. Zel Miller is fucked up. Both sides have fucked up people. Lets focus on the primary candidates and what they are saying in the debates that the majority of americans will be hearing.

YEs, i agree, both keyes and zell are fucked up because they are ultra-neocons


btw winnow, please describe in a paragraph or a couple sentences or so how you would rate george W as a president....

[Winnow]

YEs, i agree, both keyes and zell are fucked up because they are ultra-neocons

I was being kind. The democratic party has a limitless supply of fucked up people but I chose one with conservative tendancies to make you feel better about yourself.

[Animalor]

I could see the Kerry Daughters and the Bush girls wrestling in a huge vat of KY.

"YOU'RE MY BOY BLUE!!!"

[Kelshara]

Not sure what bearing that has on them being offended by their daughter being continually brought out as a political tool to further their competitor's campaign.

heh Cheney did that himself by using her. Or are you so naive that you believe there wasn't a reason for going out with it the way he did? What Kerry said was fine, what Keys said was not.

[Lohrno]

I could see the Kerry Daughters and the Bush girls wrestling in a huge vat of KY.

"YOU'RE MY BOY BLUE!!!"

I dunno if I'd wanna see that. Bush's look kinda dim (not surprising) and Kerry's fugly.

-=Lohrno

[Lisandre]

I really doubt that the Cheney's really care that Kerry mentioned their daughter's lesbianism. Their campaign probably just realized the amount of soundbites that the Kerry campaign could take advantage of as a result of the 3rd debate (soundbites concerning more significant issues), and is using this as a way to distract from that. The Kerry campaign should just stop responding to it. It's truly a non-issue.

[Avestan]

I think they could have gone without mentioning his daughter. . .that is just kind of off limits. You can make your point without bringing your opponent's family into the picture. . .after all, there has not been much said about what a crazy bitch Mrs. Ketchup is and that is much more relevent.

[Lisandre]

Saying someone is a "crazy bitch" is in no way similar to saying someone is a lesbian. Unless, of course, you equate lesbian with crazy bitch.

Edit: Let me clarify that last part. I don't think calling someone a lesbian is derogatory. The only people who would think so are those who are (admittedly or not) homophobic to some degree. Calling someone a "crazy bitch" in this context, on the other hand, is clearly meant to be derogatory.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Bush should have mentioned how health care costs have gone up in part because of obesity and then mention about how John Edwards have an obese wife. Same difference right?

[Sylvus]

Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the first time I heard Cheney's daughter mentioned during the debates was by the moderator of the Vice-Presidential debate. I think he asked a question about Cheney's daughter, and that's when Edwards spoke about her in a classy way. The second time I heard her mentioned was Kerry at the debate the other night. It wasn't as classy as Edwards, but I don't think it was evil of him.

I think it's fair, when one of the big talking points of this election is gay marriage, to mention the gay child of one of the people running for office on the ticket that is traditionally anti-gay. Particularly if she is working for the campaign.

He mentioned that she was gay and she is. What's the big fucking deal? It's not like he was outing the closeted effeminate son of his opponent, he was stating a fact.

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Er, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the first time I heard Cheney's daughter mentioned during the debates was by the moderator of the Vice-Presidential debate. I think he asked a question about Cheney's daughter, and that's when Edwards spoke about her in a classy way. The second time I heard her mentioned was Kerry at the debate the other night. It wasn't as classy as Edwards, but I don't think it was evil of him.

I think it's fair, when one of the big talking points of this election is gay marriage, to mention the gay child of one of the people running for office on the ticket that is traditionally anti-gay. Particularly if she is working for the campaign.

He mentioned that she was gay and she is. What's the big fucking deal? It's not like he was outing the closeted effeminate son of his opponent, he was stating a fact.

And John Edwards wife is fat, no big deal mentioning that and health care costs are a very important issue right?

[Sylvus]

Sure, if you wanted to. It seems sort of callous and I don't really see the point of it, particularly when they are trying to make the point that health care costs are being raised because of trial lawyers like John Edwards but that's fair enough territory.

I will ask you this though, to see if you can possibly see a distinction. You can even play along at home. Go into whichever room your wife is in, and call her fat and see what happens. Then come in here and call Fesuni gay and see what happens.

I think the difference that you will notice is that most women find it kind of insulting to be called fat, where most gay people are proud to acknowledge the fact that they are gay. Does that make any sense to you at all?

[Midnyte_Ragebringer]

Sure, if you wanted to. It seems sort of callous and I don't really see the point of it, particularly when they are trying to make the point that health care costs are being raised because of trial lawyers like John Edwards but that's fair enough territory.

I will ask you this though, to see if you can possibly see a distinction. You can even play along at home. Go into whichever room your wife is in, and call her fat and see what happens. Then come in here and call Fesuni gay and see what happens.

I think the difference that you will notice is that most women find it kind of insulting to be called fat, where most gay people are proud to acknowledge the fact that they are gay. Does that make any sense to you at all?

I think as many people who are proud to be gay are also as proud of who they are body wise. They are who they are right? Everyone should be happy and proud of what they are.

[Sylvus]

Sure, everyone should be, but a lot of people aren't. Teresa Heinz-Kerry may or may not be proud of her body, I'm not sure about that. I am sure that Mary Cheney is proud of being a lesbian, and is pretty high profile and has made it a public part of her life.

The point I was tyring to get at was that openly gay people do not view being called gay as an insult. You obviously have a problem with homosexuality and it may be difficult to understand, but it's not an attack on her to call her something that she openly calls herself.

[Marbus]

However very few people who are overweight would call themselves "a fat person" much less Obese. Bottom line though is that his wife isn't obese so calling her that would be both a lie and an insult. Sure she needs to loose a little weight but she isn't obese. You get 50, spend millions of dollars taking all kinds of hormones to get pregnant again and see if your body dosen't do some fucked up things. I think she looks great for her age and all they have been through.

Marb

[Winnow]

You excuse makers are missing the point.

Kerry isn't running on a gay platform. He isn't pro gay marriage. He's merely doing this to try and take a few radical votes from Bush. Tacky at best as Kerry is no better. I consider exploiting stupid rich women far worse than any lifestyle choice someone makes.

Civil unions for everyone for fuck's sake. It's not that complicated.

[kyoukan]

I think they could have gone without mentioning his daughter. . .that is just kind of off limits. You can make your point without bringing your opponent's family into the picture. . .after all, there has not been much said about what a crazy bitch Mrs. Ketchup is and that is much more relevent.

what exactly is more crazy about theresa heinz-kerry than trying to kill your ex boyfriend with your car in an alcoholic rage?

[Crav]

Personally the thing that I find most entertaining in this whole circus is the fact that everyone in the Bush campaign has come out saying they are upset over the comments except Mary Cheney.

Oh and unless I'm mistaken and I could be, Kerry has come out and supported giving all the rights that come with marriage without calling it a marriage to gay couples.

[Aaeamdar]

He has. He is, of course, staunchly opposed to actual marriage, because, you know, he's a Christian.