Quick Poll

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 5, 2004, 11:26 pm

this Yankee game V. the VP debate is killing me!!

I will say though in all seriousness, Cheney had a terrific start. Will it be Lloyd Benson v. Dan Qualye i doubt it. But it may actually be a VP debate that helps the candidate. Edwards has been stronger on domestic issues, but Cheney was extremely solid in the first 30 minutes.

Of course Santana is owning the Yankees as we speak, and i find myself increasingly compelled by that storyline!!

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » October 5, 2004, 11:33 pm

Mussina because he's in my keeper league

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 5, 2004, 11:48 pm

Easy win for Cheney tonight.

If you're a Kerry fan, you aren't a fan because of Edwards. There's not a chance in hell I'd want Edwards as our president. Christ, pick a VP that isn't a pretty boy that you hope will win a state for you.

Cheney won this one but most of the focus is on the presidential debates so not a huge deal.

Moonwynd · Post by **Moonwynd** » October 5, 2004, 11:48 pm

Wow, it is clear that both men were strong...but Edwards just seemed like Kerry Lite echoing the same things Kerry did. I liked Edwards use of the Clintonian thumb/fist gesture.

Cheney's strengths were the fact that he pointed out Kerry and Edward's respective records do not support their current promises. Cheney in my humble opinion did better. His best moment was referring to Edward's hometown paper referring to him as Senator Gone in reference to the fact that he hardly ever showed up on Capitol Hill. Cheney, who is president of the Senate and is there on most Tuesdays when the Senate is in session has never met Edwards until this evening...and that did not reflect well upon Edwards at all.

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » October 5, 2004, 11:58 pm

Cheney was stronger in the beginning, but i think it was pretty even at the end. Cheney sure as fuck knows how to control his parties attacks, and Edwards is too nice of a guy to go down to a similar level.
I guess I would barely give it to Cheney, but it was no where NEAR the annihilation that was the 1st kerry/bush debate

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » October 5, 2004, 11:58 pm

I'd say they came out about even. Cheney did better than I was expecting, which surprised me, and Edwards wasn't as impressive as I was hoping. They both got good hits in. I was getting irritated at how they would ignore the questions, mostly on Edwards part. The Gay Marriage part of the debate was really interesting, Cheney's not countering was pretty smart on his part.

Was good viewing all in all!

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » October 6, 2004, 12:09 am

In the end, I'd call it a draw. Cheney is a formidable debater with an impressive political resume, and he came out *very* strong in the first half hour. I started to feel it was going to be a one-sided debate, in the VP's favor.

Edwards seemed to get over his initial shell-shock of facing off with Cheney, though, and come back stronger as the debate ran on.

It seems close enough to me that many Bush/Cheney supporters will feel that Cheney won, and many Kerry/Edwards supporters will feel that Edwards won. Nothing really new came out, but it was a lot of fun to watch! I much prefer a close, tight debate to the one-sided mop up that was the first Presidential debate.

I did find it rather odd that Cheney didn't thank his opponent in the end, but only the host.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » October 6, 2004, 12:12 am

on a good note, Daily Show is fucking hillarious tonight!
"see? theres the flipflopping! First he was a flip flopper, now hes not? MAKE UP YOUR MIND!"

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » October 6, 2004, 12:25 am

I think Cheney clearly won the first half, and Edwards won the second. It was pretty obvious by Cheney's answers and his demeanor that he was much more enthusiastic and prepared for foreign rather than domestic questions.

Being completely honest, it's sort of hard to defend some of the decisions and things that have been said regarding Iraq, but it's not at all hard to find parts of Kerry's record (or lack thereof) to mock and put on the table as evidence that he's utterly weak on defense. I loved how Cheney said (I think atleast twice) that tough rhetoric on the campaign trail can't even begin to ecclipse a long record of pacifist votes and stances. In short, Bush has made some big mistakes, but Cheney pointed out what a complete dud the democrats have nominated and sort of made the opposite argument that the democrats have been making: "Anybody but Kerry."

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » October 6, 2004, 12:41 am

Cheney is clearly more intelligent than Edwards, and clearly has a better memory.

You know if Cheney would have been a democrat, he would have made Kerry a better VP chouice, with the gay daughter card and all.

Arborealus · Post by **Arborealus** » October 6, 2004, 12:47 am

I give Edwards a marginal win. Cheney got solid points for the bringing up the senate record.

He got smacked on Edwards pointing out that the weapon systems Kerry voted to kill were put on the block by Cheney as Sec of Defense. He also shuffled off the question of Haliburton's dealings within Iraq and Libya while they were under sanctions. His disagreement with the president's position on a constitutional ban on gay marriage was obvious.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » October 6, 2004, 2:08 am

Wow this board isnt as partisan and blind as I thought...Being that most this board are Libs I expected 70% Edwards and 20% Cheney. As most Conservative vs. Liberal polls go here, which is all cool Im not bashing. Free speech!

To me Cheney was the clear victor and the reason I give is some Dems have said Cheney may of won, and for a direct example look at some quotes on this board or on TV. Anytime one side says the other did good or backs down on a point for the other guy. You know, its because the other guy won. The partisans will always be for there guy, but weakness in the partisanship shows who won.

Example Ill use myself.
I thought Bush and Kerry debate 1 was a draw....Im not a lier I really believe it, but Im partisan. Im more on line with my personal thinking as Dick Cheney....so if I thought it was a draw then Im pretty sure the average American thought the other guy won.

To bad for my side this wasn't a presidential debate to make up for Bush's 1st debate losses. VP may gain you a point at most 2. Presidential debate can change it +-5.

I think atm Bush went into the Debates with a +6 advantage. After his debate I thought he was at a +2-3 advantage. After Cheney I see it being a +3 to maybe 4 Bush advantage. With 2 more debates togo. Im still confident Bush will win though because of his agressive ground campaign he started during the democrat primary's. And when voters get into the box, I think they'll vote national security over everything else and Bush has always polled a commanding advantage in that aspect compared to Kerry. I mean a +5-15 advantage depending on the poll.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » October 6, 2004, 2:24 am

I voted for Santana, getting those double plays helped, but going into Yankee stadium and getting a game one win in a best of five is pretty big.

I didn't get a chance to see the debates since I was in class, but from what I've heard it was really close. Cheney delivered a solid performance and Edwards just wasn't as good, mostly due to his inexperience. I was expecting more from Edwards, but I guess he just isn't ready to go up against someone with as much experience as Cheney, and that's ok since I think in 8 years he'll be more than ready to run for President.

One of the things that I did find interesting from seeing the analysts was that women really favored Edwards over Cheney. It seems that if there was a win for the Democrats was that it helped solidify woman's vote for the ticket. I also wonder what the demographics for people viewing the debates since the game was on at the same time.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » October 6, 2004, 2:45 am

Cheney was stronger in the beginning, but i think it was pretty even at the end. Cheney sure as fuck knows how to control his parties attacks, and Edwards is too nice of a guy to go down to a similar level.
I guess I would barely give it to Cheney, but it was no where NEAR the annihilation that was the 1st kerry/bush debate

Xzion saying this, hes as partisan as I am or more for the other side.

umm=Cheney annihilation

I just wish this was President Bush doing the same to Kerry. I think Kerry with 20 years in the Blow Hall senate has the upper advantage on Bush as far as debates(I think Kerry could beat Bush in defending evading Canada was needed, in a debate), and I just pray he comes out even the next two debates............. Or since Im partisan I hope he kicks his ass the next two debates heheh. In all it comes down too electorial votes if either side wins by 1.5% national it will be a clear victory.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » October 6, 2004, 2:51 am

can I have a write in for The Soul Patrol?

Crav · Post by **Crav** » October 6, 2004, 2:56 am

Actually the funny thing is that most analysts looked at the debate as a fairly decisive win for Cheney, but the early unofficial polls are showing a small Cheney victory something like 3-5 percent, which is within the margin of error. It's really starting to look like what happened to Gore last year in the debates where most analyst thought he won pretty handily, yet the general public just didn't see it that way. In fact the MSNBC poll showed Edwards won the debate by a pretty good margin 67% to 33% with 775,162 responses.

Brotha · Post by **Brotha** » October 6, 2004, 3:05 am

I watched it on ABC because Fox had their annoying graphic thing at the bottom, so I couldn't see what color the lights were (how much time was left). I'm such a traitor

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » October 6, 2004, 4:18 am

I saw fox news gave cheney the edge by a margin of 503% for cheney to negative seventy-seven trillion percent for edwards.

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 6, 2004, 7:09 am

Santana.

Because in the church of baseball, I belong to the denomination of the Red Sox.

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » October 6, 2004, 7:52 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/?GT1=5472

Doesnt look like the american public sees it that way, or maybe they just want bush out of office as much as i do

Chidoro · Post by **Chidoro** » October 6, 2004, 8:31 am

Santana was good, a little lucky, but good. Moose pitched pretty damn well also. Actually, the two Cy Young candidates were great. Schilling rung up the leading MVP candidate twice and was hitless the entire game.

As far as the debates go, I would say it was a dead heat or a slight edge to Edwards. I think anyone who supports Bush's (Cheney)agenda is just happy to have it articulated for once. It's also very obvious that Cheney is running the country. Both candidates obviously had respect for each other. Overall, I thought it was a good debate.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 6, 2004, 8:59 am

The Twins must put the Yankees down early. We need a 1991 rematch. Braves-Twins! Smoltz comes out of the pen to start game 7 in a shocker!

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 6, 2004, 9:24 am

Didn't get to see it but read the papers over breakfast today and seemed they considered it fairly even. They also said nothing really new was said and that neither side really delivered any KO blows. They commented on it as "both sides trades jabs". They also said Cheney started strong, but Edwards ended strong.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 6, 2004, 10:06 am

i learned last night that i hate the Yankees more than Dick Cheney

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 6, 2004, 12:41 pm

I thought it was a tie pesonally but if I had to pick I would say Edwards but ONLY by 1%. The VP came across factual, even when they weren't facts at times, and said many of the things Bush needed to say last Thursday... and Edwards pretty much did the same. They both had personal attacks but not too bad they were almost like two old friends pounding on each other about the "old times" or possibly even a Father / Son debate... even though Edwards is not that much younger than Chaney, he definitely looks like he is though.

Best line of the night was "... and this is the first time we have ever met." - Chaney. Edwards didn't deny it either but at least he had Chaney's old controversal votes to hit him with.

I thought they were both VERY real concerning Gay marriage and I was VERY VERY VERY pleased (I almost cried) to see Chaney acknowledge his daughter and her girlfriend then bring them up on stage and having them stay up on stage unlike the Republican National Convention. I think Chaney may have realised after that night that he wasn't going to let politics come between him and his family. I applaud him for that.

I thought Edwards did well on the domestic issues but thought his closing statement was a little bleak... he did get the line in a few questions before though that "American can't take another 4 years of this administration" almost echoing Reagan back in 79.

Overall a very good debate I applaud them both.

Marb

Post by **Sylvus** » October 6, 2004, 12:42 pm

I thought the post-game (debate) commentary was pretty humorous. I was switching between Fox and CNN. Fox immediately had 5 people say "oh cheney won, hands down". CNN immediately had a political analyst do some fact checking on the numbers.* Then the pundits they spoke to said that they were leaning toward Cheney winning the foreign policy part and Edwards winning domestic policy, but that it was too early to say who the clear winner was. Back on Fox, Brit Hume was comparing the attacks that they had on each other, and fair and balanced Fox news showed one 10-second clip of Edwards saying something about Haliburton, and an entire 90-second rebuttal by Cheney.

My favorite part was when Fox News brought on the Kerry/Edwards campaign manager and the guy about shit himself and was visibly trying to stifle a laugh when he goes "see, fair and balanced".

*fyi - Edwards was correct in stating that 90% of coalition casualties had been US, even though Cheney said he was wrong. Edwards was wrong about the $200B figure, as that is the estimated costs through 2005. It's only at $120B as of right now, as Cheney said

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » October 6, 2004, 12:48 pm

Cheney's pretty clever, but if they came out in a tie, that would benefit Edwards being the underdog wouldn't it?

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 6, 2004, 1:21 pm

Marbus wrote:
Best line of the night was "... and this is the first time we have ever met." - Chaney. Edwards didn't deny it either but at least he had Chaney's old controversal votes to hit him with.

Krimson Klaw · Post by **Krimson Klaw** » October 6, 2004, 1:39 pm

While I thought Bush did better than expected, Kerry still won the presidential debates by a very slim margin in my eyes. The veep debate was a blowout by Cheney. I actually cringed a few times. It was pretty harsh.

edit- Also check out factcheck.org for a non partisan view of the debates last night. They hit both candidates pretty hard on their lies and exaggerations. Here is a direct link. http://factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=272

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 6, 2004, 1:59 pm

Krimson Klaw wrote:While I thought Bush did better than expected, Kerry still won the presidential debates by a very slim margin in my eyes. The veep debate was a blowout by Cheney. I actually cringed a few times. It was pretty harsh.

Who cares what you thought! You don't have a chance of voting for Bush. What did your wife think? : )

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 6, 2004, 2:18 pm

Voronwë wrote:
Marbus wrote:
Best line of the night was "... and this is the first time we have ever met." - Chaney. Edwards didn't deny it either but at least he had Chaney's old controversal votes to hit him with.

That's worse than the picture of Kerry and Jane Fonda! It looks like Edwards is elbowing Cheney in the side. Unless I see a handshake and them swapping spit, they never met! How about a picture of the two in the senate where it actually matters? : ) It looks like Edwards is just out for a free meal in that breakfast picture and then off to go fishing again.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » October 6, 2004, 3:34 pm

Online polls aren't the least bit reliable. Either on this board on on msnbc. We all know certain sites attract certain crowds. We also know how diligently the DNC has been getting the word out to its constituents to rock the online vote.

Post by **pyrella** » October 6, 2004, 3:38 pm

RNC doesn't have the freedom to do the same? Just lazy?

It's not like the internet isn't an important part of society today.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » October 6, 2004, 3:39 pm

Voronwe likes quick poles. He also likes fat poles.

Kluden · Post by **Kluden** » October 6, 2004, 3:50 pm

I watched it. I enjoyed it very much. Both gentlemen acted in a very mature manner and kept the personal attacks short.....just in a high quantity of short quips.

What I find funny as hell, is when Dick Cheney gave a website to check you facts at....he said http://www.factcheck.COM ....not .org.

If you goto factcheck.com....you get directed to a George Soros blog site.

So, in other words, Cheney lied to america by giving us an incorrect site to check his and edward's facts.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 6, 2004, 4:14 pm

Be careful though and don't type in fatchicks.com... especially at work

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » October 6, 2004, 5:33 pm

pyrella wrote:RNC doesn't have the freedom to do the same? Just lazy?

It does, but that doesn't say anything about the truth of my point ;p

Vetiria · Post by **Vetiria** » October 6, 2004, 6:20 pm

The fact that Santana didn't have his best stuff, but still dominated the Spankmee's pretty much sealed the deal.

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » October 6, 2004, 7:25 pm

I dont understand this logic, but every single poll ive seen, with the exception of one,(which was close) is showing not just a victory for Edwards, but a landslide victory even bigger then the last Bush/Cheney

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 6, 2004, 8:37 pm

Xzion- wrote:I dont understand this logic, but every single poll ive seen, with the exception of one,(which was close) is showing not just a victory for Edwards, but a landslide victory even bigger then the last Bush/Cheney

It's because polls are gay and most gay people are democrats. That clear things up?

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » October 6, 2004, 8:54 pm

actually the only thing I got out of the debates is that I don't like either Edwards or Cheney. I thought I liked Edwards more, but I just heard the same old rhetoric out of his mouth and I got bored. Then Cheney starts talking and he gives me this creepy vibe. Overall I wasnt impressed, I've seen better high school debates than this.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » October 6, 2004, 9:02 pm

Winnow wrote:
Xzion- wrote:I dont understand this logic, but every single poll ive seen, with the exception of one,(which was close) is showing not just a victory for Edwards, but a landslide victory even bigger then the last Bush/Cheney
It's because polls are gay and most gay people are democrats. That clear things up?

It really, really does.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » October 7, 2004, 11:18 am

ABC's/Washington Post poll showed a clear win for Cheney
CBS/NYT poll showed a clear win for Edwards.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » October 7, 2004, 12:17 pm

Winnow wrote:
Voronwë wrote:
Marbus wrote:
Best line of the night was "... and this is the first time we have ever met." - Chaney. Edwards didn't deny it either but at least he had Chaney's old controversal votes to hit him with.

That's worse than the picture of Kerry and Jane Fonda! It looks like Edwards is elbowing Cheney in the side. Unless I see a handshake and them swapping spit, they never met! How about a picture of the two in the senate where it actually matters? : ) It looks like Edwards is just out for a free meal in that breakfast picture and then off to go fishing again.

In the acutal clip of that meeting, they did shake hands. He also shook hands with edwards back stage when they both appeared on some show on CNN or something. It was on channel 3!

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » October 7, 2004, 3:33 pm

Marbus wrote:Be careful though and don't type in fatchicks.com... especially at work

The Daily Show used this exact joke last night!

VeeshanVault

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