Bush vs Kerry on an increase of the minimum wage..

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » October 4, 2004, 10:46 am

The Associated Press Wrote an Article for the Parkersburg News That Said..
(yeah, it's a local paper, blow me)

"On the Issues: What increases, if any, do you favor in the $5.15 an hour federal minimum wage?"

Bush: "My first goal is to make sure that every American who wants to work can find a job. I would consider any reasonable proposal that phases in an increase in the federal minimum wage over an extended period of time - provided that it does not place unreasonable costs on small buisnesses or other job creators."

Kerry: "As president, I will raise the minimum wage from $5.15 to $$7 by 2007, giving a raise to nearly 15 million workers. Doesn't President Bush see that the minimum wage has fallen further and further behind the cost of living, and the impact of the last increase has been wiped away by inflation?"

My thoughts, after reading the article.
1: Bush doesn't say what his goal is to raise it to or give a timetable. Good dodge on that aspect - I would prefer hard numbers.
2: Kerry GIVES the hard numbers, but calculate the costs of that as to how it would aeffect a small buisness employing 10 people, each working 40hr weeks ($2800 every week, before taxes vs $2060 a week, before taxes). You're looking at an added payroll expense of 740 a week; 1480 every payroll period. Where does he think the buisness is going to recoup its losses?

As a guy that's making only slightly above minimum wage working for a recognized, global corporation (yay sears. rah freaking rah.) I'm not against an increase in the minimum wage - I mean, my bosses can afford it. But they won't like it. They'll probably even fire another person in my department to make up for it - maybe me.

What will likely happen with any such change with the minimum wage is for prices to go up, and offered hours to go down. The ideal behind this is a sound one - give people more money so they can afford to buy more. However, it also has the end run effect of forcing them to spend more to buy what they are now - this won't stop inflation, this will only help it. Even worse, assuming that hours are cut to maintain a blanance on payday (reduce hours so that they are still earning the same ammount of cash) there will still be a percieved cost adjustment on goods and services that would take place to counter any percieved necessity of raising the price.

Thoughts?

Animale · Post by **Animale** » October 4, 2004, 11:13 am

Minimum wage should be fixed to the inflation rate, perhaps locally to cost of living increases. Otherwise there will be arguments like this every couple years, when the fixed minimum wage dips dangerously close to the poverty line. This is the only long term solution I can see to this problem.

Animale

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 4, 2004, 11:26 am

small business owners are a bunch of fucking whiners. they'll do exactly what every other business does when their costs rise: they'll pass them on to their customers. and if their customers don't like the new high prices, well, that's capitalism, baby.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » October 4, 2004, 11:29 am

The last time the minimum wage was increased - the same calls of people not being able to afford it happened.

What basically happened was - people started buying more because they had more money, businesses did better and could make up the amount that they had to pay their employees.

miir · Post by **miir** » October 4, 2004, 11:44 am

Bush is such a pussy when it comes to issues that will negatively effect his business buddies.

From his stance on taxes and now minimum wage it's pretty obvious that he cares little for the average american and more about big-business.

Up here, they have started phasing in a higher minimum wage. Oddly, there hasn't a whole lot of pissing and moaning by business owners about it.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 4, 2004, 2:32 pm

miir wrote:
Up here, they have started phasing in a higher minimum wage. Oddly, there hasn't a whole lot of pissing and moaning by business owners about it.

Minimum wage in Canada must be like 40K/year with your current Monopoly money!

I'd like a Happy Meal please....that will be $24.95 please sir! The term "eleventy billion" didn't come from the U.S deficit...it came from a disgruntled Canadian trying to buy a case of Molson.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » October 4, 2004, 3:45 pm

Maybe if people would stop bellyaching about their lot in life and better their skillsets, thereby making themselves worth more, they could find something that paid above the minimum.

Minimum pay goes to the people who are easiest to replace. Capitalism, as someone said.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » October 4, 2004, 3:47 pm

Rekaar. wrote:Maybe if people would stop bellyaching about their lot in life and better their skillsets, thereby making themselves worth more, they could find something that paid above the minimum.

Minimum pay goes to the people who are easiest to replace. Capitalism, as someone said.

Bingo.

miir · Post by **miir** » October 4, 2004, 3:56 pm

Maybe if people would stop bellyaching about their lot in life and better their skillsets, thereby making themselves worth more, they could find something that paid above the minimum.

You guys don't understand economics whatsoever, do you?

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » October 4, 2004, 4:04 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:Maybe if people would stop bellyaching about their lot in life and better their skillsets, thereby making themselves worth more, they could find something that paid above the minimum.

Minimum pay goes to the people who are easiest to replace. Capitalism, as someone said.
Bingo.

So, uh Mid, what are you doing to make yourself worth more? You've admitted to having to work 2 jobs in order to survive, so apparently, according to your logic, have failed to make something of yourself.

Chmee · Post by **Chmee** » October 4, 2004, 4:11 pm

There should be no minimum wage.

Hoarmurath · Post by **Hoarmurath** » October 4, 2004, 4:13 pm

Chmee wrote:There should be no minimum wage.

Don't waffle, tell us your honest opinion!

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 4, 2004, 4:20 pm

I paid Chmee in peanuts just last week to mow my lawn! : )

Truant · Post by **Truant** » October 4, 2004, 4:34 pm

As someone who makes minimum wage (for the next 2 years or so) I support the raising of the minimum wage.

Cost of living here in the fastest growing city in the country is also rising fast. Wages have not budged yet, and judging by the complete lack of any ability to make a half intelligent decision by this city, they won't.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » October 4, 2004, 4:38 pm

Truant wrote:As someone who makes minimum wage (for the next 2 years or so) I support the raising of the minimum wage.

Cost of living here in the fastest growing city in the country is also rising fast. Wages have not budged yet, and judging by the complete lack of any ability to make a half intelligent decision by this city, they won't.

Isn't that misleading Truant? Does that include tips or does the job pay less than minimum and assume tips will bring it up to minimum?

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » October 4, 2004, 5:57 pm

Chmee wrote:There should be no minimum wage.

I have a grandfather from Cuba, who was a doctor, not a very wealthy person to our standards, but he would have been considered something along the lines to our "upper middle class". There family had 5 servants, mostly black who were LIVE INS for the PRICE OF FOOD, because of that bullshit, Fidel Castro is in power today.
Noone can make a good living off 7.00 an hour, let alone 5.15.
Sure, this tax increase would be against people such as myself, and many others on this board, but it would be great for the lower class.
Its not very libertarian of me (although i do believe in a flat tax, of course considering we balance the godamn budget and do waste money on failed wars such as Iraq, war on drugs etc), but being against a minimum wage is flat out fucking horrible for our countrys economy.
Businesses will gradually lower the now minimum wage prices creating a larger gap between the upper and lower classes.

masteen · Post by **masteen** » October 4, 2004, 6:07 pm

National minimum wage is bullshit. What you can live decently on in one state may be below poverty in another.

Pherr the Dorf · Post by **Pherr the Dorf** » October 4, 2004, 6:10 pm

masteen wrote:National minimum wage is bullshit. What you can live decently on in one state may be below poverty in another.

7/hr = about 14k a year, yah that'll let you live in California

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » October 4, 2004, 6:56 pm

And that is $14560 BEFORE taxes

However it should probably be based more on state cost of living. Fourteen K is much more in Arkansas than it is in CA.

Marb

Homercles · Post by **Homercles** » October 4, 2004, 6:58 pm

Many of you seem to be under the impression that the Minimum Wage should equate to a Living Wage. The Minimum Wage was NEVER intended to be a living wage. Nor should it ever become a living wage.

And as one of those "whiney small business owners", the raising of the minimum wage would most likely harm my business. My employees are already paid more than minimum, so I wouldnt be hit by increased payroll. But the trickle down would hit me.

My clientele is not made up from minimum wage earners. So it doesnt matter to me if they have an extra few dollars in there pockets.
My clientele is primarily made up other small business' and corporations. If those other small business' have to increase their payroll to cover the wage increase, then they have less money to spend with me. When they dont have the money to spend with me then I lose money.
Id also get hit by cost increases from my suppliers. As some of you have stated, "business' will just pass the cost onto the customer". Well, I got news for ya, the biggest consumors are other business'. My inventory costs would rise which means less money for me.

My supplies will cost more. My clients will have less to spend. I'd get pinched at both ends. My profits go down and Im unable to expand my business and create more jobs.

Most of you wouldnt believe the cost of running a small business. And Im on the real small side of things. 7 employees. On top of payroll, there is also the cost of supplies, medical & dental insurance, workers comp, franchise fees, co-op fees, permits (state, local, federal), equipment, yellow pages, marketing, gasoline, vehicles, maintenance, lease, standard bills (heat/electric/ac/phone/internet), security system, holiday bonus', attorneys fees, advertising, taxes, and on and on and on.

We dont "whine" because we're bitter miserly pinny pinching jackasses. We complain because the cost of running a business is already astronimacally high and we dont need the government telling us how much we have to pay our employees.

If we want to pay jack and shit to our employees. So be it. You get what you pay for. And if youre paying crap, youre most likely going to get crap right back at you.
A quality employee will earn more. A quality employee will be worth more. A quality employee will have options available to him or her. A quality employee doesnt need to rely on the Minimum Wage.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » October 4, 2004, 7:13 pm

One dollar an hour raise in the minimum wage cuts my standard of living by $2000. Anyone who is not utterly ignorant of economics knows this fact and is aware that the price of milk, bread, coffee, gas, flour and such all go up when minimum wage goes up and no one gains anything at all.

This is such a bullshit politcal thing that it is not acceptable to me. If you are unhappy making minimum wage then work harder and make more, get training ( free for anyone making minimum wage) or get your shit together stop smoking crack and drinking booze and get a real job.

Fuck raising it, I make too little above it as it is, and my pay will not increase along with the prices of everything increased by raising it.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · Post by **Midnyte_Ragebringer** » October 4, 2004, 7:19 pm

Lalanae wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:Maybe if people would stop bellyaching about their lot in life and better their skillsets, thereby making themselves worth more, they could find something that paid above the minimum.

Minimum pay goes to the people who are easiest to replace. Capitalism, as someone said.
Bingo.
So, uh Mid, what are you doing to make yourself worth more? You've admitted to having to work 2 jobs in order to survive, so apparently, according to your logic, have failed to make something of yourself.

Indeed. I haven't done very well at all. Thankfully enough, to have my own home, pay for my wife to go back to school full-time, keep the kids in new clothes, etc, etc, etc. I'm struggling and have been for a long time. But, I don't want government support. I'll continue to work hard and try to make a better life for myself and my family.

Thanks for brining it up though.

*~*stragi*~* · Post by ***~*stragi*~*** » October 4, 2004, 7:22 pm

You realize bush hates you?

On an unrelated note, Winnow you better vote yes for a light rail system!

Thess · Post by **Thess** » October 4, 2004, 7:31 pm

Kylere wrote:One dollar an hour raise in the minimum wage cuts my standard of living by $2000. Anyone who is not utterly ignorant of economics knows this fact and is aware that the price of milk, bread, coffee, gas, flour and such all go up when minimum wage goes up and no one gains anything at all.

This is such a bullshit politcal thing that it is not acceptable to me. If you are unhappy making minimum wage then work harder and make more, get training ( free for anyone making minimum wage) or get your shit together stop smoking crack and drinking booze and get a real job.

Fuck raising it, I make too little above it as it is, and my pay will not increase along with the prices of everything increased by raising it.

So take your own advice?

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » October 4, 2004, 8:30 pm

I had a discussion why fairly poor people support Bush. Then we decided it was because they were stupid enough to buy his BS.

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » October 4, 2004, 8:38 pm

Thess wrote:
Kylere wrote:One dollar an hour raise in the minimum wage cuts my standard of living by $2000. Anyone who is not utterly ignorant of economics knows this fact and is aware that the price of milk, bread, coffee, gas, flour and such all go up when minimum wage goes up and no one gains anything at all.

This is such a bullshit politcal thing that it is not acceptable to me. If you are unhappy making minimum wage then work harder and make more, get training ( free for anyone making minimum wage) or get your shit together stop smoking crack and drinking booze and get a real job.

Fuck raising it, I make too little above it as it is, and my pay will not increase along with the prices of everything increased by raising it.
So take your own advice?

Yeah yeah Thess, geting 2 bucks an hour up on minimum wage is A LOT easier than getting 2 buck up on anything above 10, 15, or even 35 an hour. Have not made more than 35 an hour so I am not sure above it, but once you pass ten an hour, your chances of a 4k annual pay raise usually require changing jobs, once you enter the job market you will know this to be true. It is anothe help the "poor" which does not help them and screw the middle class move, while effecting the rich not at all. Sum gain is a negative result.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » October 4, 2004, 8:58 pm

Inflation is unlikely to get out of hand fast w/ 2.75% interest rates.. it's also not usually that heavily driven by staples but by "luxuries".

Are there not pricing controls on bread and milk in the US?

I actually tend to agree w/ Chmee that there shouldn't be a minimum wage.. but for completely different reasons; if people didn't have that disgustingly low baseline to draw from they might value their effort at a more appropriate price.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » October 4, 2004, 9:00 pm

Zaelath wrote:Inflation is unlikely to get out of hand fast w/ 2.75% interest rates.. it's also not usually that heavily driven by staples but by "luxuries".

Are there not pricing controls on bread and milk in the US?

I actually tend to agree w/ Chmee that there shouldn't be a minimum wage.. but for completely different reasons; if people didn't have that disgustingly low baseline to draw from they might value their effort at a more appropriate price.

Gratz Zaelath on the Raise WOOT!!!!!

Kylere · Post by **Kylere** » October 4, 2004, 10:24 pm

There are no pricing controls on bread and milk in the US. Increasing minimum wage will increase them though, simple economics.

Dregor Thule · Post by **Dregor Thule** » October 4, 2004, 10:25 pm

I thought I'd post here so another thread could be ruined by Cartalas. Hi stalker!

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » October 4, 2004, 10:26 pm

Dregor Thule wrote:I thought I'd post here so another thread could be ruined by Cartalas. Hi stalker!

/wave

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » October 4, 2004, 10:28 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Zaelath wrote:Inflation is unlikely to get out of hand fast w/ 2.75% interest rates.. it's also not usually that heavily driven by staples but by "luxuries".

Are there not pricing controls on bread and milk in the US?

I actually tend to agree w/ Chmee that there shouldn't be a minimum wage.. but for completely different reasons; if people didn't have that disgustingly low baseline to draw from they might value their effort at a more appropriate price.
Gratz Zaelath on the Raise WOOT!!!!!

Last time I had a job in the US I started on about 4x the minimum, laughing boy

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » October 4, 2004, 10:41 pm

Zaelath wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Zaelath wrote:Inflation is unlikely to get out of hand fast w/ 2.75% interest rates.. it's also not usually that heavily driven by staples but by "luxuries".

Are there not pricing controls on bread and milk in the US?

I actually tend to agree w/ Chmee that there shouldn't be a minimum wage.. but for completely different reasons; if people didn't have that disgustingly low baseline to draw from they might value their effort at a more appropriate price.
Gratz Zaelath on the Raise WOOT!!!!!
Last time I had a job in the US I started on about 4x the minimum, laughing boy

So you had a job in the US when Min wage was 3.35 ohhhh big spender 13 bucks a hour.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » October 4, 2004, 11:23 pm

Nah, a little more recent than that.. and significantly more/hour now I'm back home.

You know... you don't have to be poor to want a better deal for them. I realise that's hard for a republican to understand, perhaps you have some nearby democrats that can explain it to you with some crayons.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » October 4, 2004, 11:32 pm

Zaelath wrote:Nah, a little more recent than that.. and significantly more/hour now I'm back home.

You know... you don't have to be poor to want a better deal for them. I realise that's hard for a republican to understand, perhaps you have some nearby democrats that can explain it to you with some crayons.

Where do you get that I dont want Min. wage increased? Im glad they are increasing it.

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » October 4, 2004, 11:50 pm

Perhaps you misunderstood my reasoning for removing it then...

It's not so you can pay mexicans in food and board to pick crops, it's because I think it removes the free market forces that would see the lowest wages increase if people didn't have an artificially low benchmark. At the moment, people go "well hey, I'm making minimum wage at Wal-Mart" and accept it as an inevitability, despite the massive profits of the company.

Trouble w/ all economic theory is despite all the study it is being given on an on-going basis, the human element makes it almost certain there will be unexpected results. They are much better at deconstructing economic history, but even then at times they don't honestly know wtf happened.

Drasta · Post by **Drasta** » October 5, 2004, 2:04 am

im sorry but min. wage needs to go up BAD.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » October 5, 2004, 5:53 am

There should be no minimum wage

Yes and we should live in a fair world and companies should be run by fair minded people who would never exploit others for profit.
However in the meantime. . .