Onward Gay Activists

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » September 28, 2004, 5:00 pm

Actually, it isn't relevant whether or not homosexuality is common (or normal) behaviour. There are not many people that own their own boat; the fact that it isn't common does not mean that it should be illegal.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » September 28, 2004, 5:03 pm

I am just one of the only ones who will voice it. Everyone else is afraid of being labeled a homophobe. I could care less if you label me. I know who I am...and I hate everyone equally whether white or black or any shade in between....gay or straight or bi. I am definitely against thesame sex marriages, but if you read any of what I said earlier, I do think there are some marital rights they should have that are given to hetero couples. I guess that means I hate gays and they should all die.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » September 28, 2004, 5:06 pm

and yet you "truly don't care".....

God man, not being able to see blatant contradictions in oneself shows a lack of self awareness I pity

Toshira · Post by **Toshira** » September 28, 2004, 5:25 pm

I'd agree with Kilmoll on his point that homosexuality activity is deviant behavior.

I'm curious what his idea of normal sexual behavior is, though. Care to make a stand?

P.S. Thess, sooooo...your mother is a closet romantic then, yah?

Jice Virago · Post by **Jice Virago** » September 28, 2004, 5:28 pm

Unfortunately Kilmoll, there are mountains of evidence that show that homosexuality is a regular occurance not only in mankind, but in the animal world as well. This basically indicates that while environment can have an impact, sexual orientation is overwhelmingly hereditary. While it is true that people can deny their own inherrant nature, there is no real comparison between repressing oneself and having the common sense not to fuck your own sister. Look what happens to all those Catholic Priests who repress themselves.

The core of this argument is the definition of marriage. It could be argued that marriage traditionally has had the meaning of a bond between man and woman. But still, marriage has never been primarily a religious institution. We are not and should not be concerned with the religious implications, only the legal ones. In order to make our laws adhere with our highest law, the constitution, it has become necessary to change the traditional definition of marriage. Conservatives and Christians alike despise this idea, not necessarily because they want to discriminate, but moreso because they hold marriage as some sacred institution that must be preserved in its current form. And they see it as their duty to undertake this preservation, even though there is no logical rational or even moral reason to do so. Consequently, gays are discriminated against as a result of their stubbornness.

Religious institutions have coopted marriage over the eons because it gave them a measure of control over society. After all, unless you pay your tithes to the church you won't get to be married. This practice has continued on into the present, with small churches demanding conversions of spouses and making descent money off of weddings. If religions lose their stranglehold (largely one of tradition and perception) over marriage, they will have lost one of their last major means of control. They know this, which is why you are seeing such a bitter battle over this issue lately.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » September 28, 2004, 5:38 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:It can be argued that one chooses to be homosexual as well.

/boggle

This is just stupid. I can reasonably infer from this statement that you aren't close at all with anybody who is gay.

Assuming for a moment that homosexuality *was* a choice, why not pause a moment to ask yourself why anybody would choose it? The negatives of the average homosexual lifestyle far outweigh the positives. To wit:

- You are denied basic rights that heterosexual people enjoy such as has been the topic of this thread.

- You are discriminated against in the workplace.

- You bear an almost insurmountable stigma with much of the unwashed masses.

- At least among younger people, the gay community as a group tends to be *extremely* promiscuous and superficial. That's not saying that there aren't outliers (there are in all communities), but many of my gay friends have an incredibly hard time finding relationships. Sex is easy, but it gets old, and they frequenly lament how long it's been since they just had a companion...somebody to share interests, to really spend time with and know, a warm body to curl up against... We as heterosexuals have it easy in this arena - you find a girl attractive, you ask her out. There's none of this dancing around the subject with codes and gestures, and if the girl isn't interested, you aren't risking getting beat up in the parking lot. Let's not even get into the STDs which flourish in such a bottlenecked and promiscuous group.

- I honestly can't remember the last time a group of people in the US took to the streets with the intention of "beating up some Christians." (Not pinning any blame on one group - I use them simply because of this thread)

- Not many people's parents disown them when they come out as a Christian. Can you imagine for one second losing your parents? That's fucking harsh.

- How about always having to have a secret life? Sure, gays can join the military, but the "don't ask, don't tell" sort of policy ensures that they have to live in secret, and present a lie almost 90% of their time in service.

...So, all things considered, how can you possibly think this would be something somebody would *choose* if they had a simple option, like they were choosing one brand of soda over another? It's simply not a choice.

I mean...if it's such a voluntary choice, then why can't you choose to be gay? Can you see yourself embracing that life? Can you see yourself liking men? Probably not. Certainly no more so than they can see themselves switching teams.

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » September 28, 2004, 6:11 pm

Arundel Pajo wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:It can be argued that one chooses to be homosexual as well.
/boggle

This is just stupid. I can reasonably infer from this statement that you aren't close at all with anybody who is gay.

Assuming for a moment that homosexuality *was* a choice, why not pause a moment to ask yourself why anybody would choose it? The negatives of the average homosexual lifestyle far outweigh the positives. To wit:

- You are denied basic rights that heterosexual people enjoy such as has been the topic of this thread.

- You are discriminated against in the workplace.

- You bear an almost insurmountable stigma with much of the unwashed masses.

- At least among younger people, the gay community as a group tends to be *extremely* promiscuous and superficial. That's not saying that there aren't outliers (there are in all communities), but many of my gay friends have an incredibly hard time finding relationships. Sex is easy, but it gets old, and they frequenly lament how long it's been since they just had a companion...somebody to share interests, to really spend time with and know, a warm body to curl up against... We as heterosexuals have it easy in this arena - you find a girl attractive, you ask her out. There's none of this dancing around the subject with codes and gestures, and if the girl isn't interested, you aren't risking getting beat up in the parking lot. Let's not even get into the STDs which flourish in such a bottlenecked and promiscuous group.

- I honestly can't remember the last time a group of people in the US took to the streets with the intention of "beating up some Christians." (Not pinning any blame on one group - I use them simply because of this thread)

- Not many people's parents disown them when they come out as a Christian. Can you imagine for one second losing your parents? That's fucking harsh.

- How about always having to have a secret life? Sure, gays can join the military, but the "don't ask, don't tell" sort of policy ensures that they have to live in secret, and present a lie almost 90% of their time in service.

...So, all things considered, how can you possibly think this would be something somebody would *choose* if they had a simple option, like they were choosing one brand of soda over another? It's simply not a choice.

I mean...if it's such a voluntary choice, then why can't you choose to be gay? Can you see yourself embracing that life? Can you see yourself liking men? Probably not. Certainly no more so than they can see themselves switching teams.

So Kilmoll, how do you explain the number of gay teenagers that commit suicide?

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 28, 2004, 6:24 pm

Xzion- wrote:
Arundel Pajo wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:It can be argued that one chooses to be homosexual as well.
/boggle

This is just stupid. I can reasonably infer from this statement that you aren't close at all with anybody who is gay.

Assuming for a moment that homosexuality *was* a choice, why not pause a moment to ask yourself why anybody would choose it? The negatives of the average homosexual lifestyle far outweigh the positives. To wit:

- You are denied basic rights that heterosexual people enjoy such as has been the topic of this thread.

- You are discriminated against in the workplace.

- You bear an almost insurmountable stigma with much of the unwashed masses.

- At least among younger people, the gay community as a group tends to be *extremely* promiscuous and superficial. That's not saying that there aren't outliers (there are in all communities), but many of my gay friends have an incredibly hard time finding relationships. Sex is easy, but it gets old, and they frequenly lament how long it's been since they just had a companion...somebody to share interests, to really spend time with and know, a warm body to curl up against... We as heterosexuals have it easy in this arena - you find a girl attractive, you ask her out. There's none of this dancing around the subject with codes and gestures, and if the girl isn't interested, you aren't risking getting beat up in the parking lot. Let's not even get into the STDs which flourish in such a bottlenecked and promiscuous group.

- I honestly can't remember the last time a group of people in the US took to the streets with the intention of "beating up some Christians." (Not pinning any blame on one group - I use them simply because of this thread)

- Not many people's parents disown them when they come out as a Christian. Can you imagine for one second losing your parents? That's fucking harsh.

- How about always having to have a secret life? Sure, gays can join the military, but the "don't ask, don't tell" sort of policy ensures that they have to live in secret, and present a lie almost 90% of their time in service.

...So, all things considered, how can you possibly think this would be something somebody would *choose* if they had a simple option, like they were choosing one brand of soda over another? It's simply not a choice.

I mean...if it's such a voluntary choice, then why can't you choose to be gay? Can you see yourself embracing that life? Can you see yourself liking men? Probably not. Certainly no more so than they can see themselves switching teams.
So Kilmoll, how do you explain the number of gay teenagers that commit suicide?

umm they relized they were gay?

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » September 28, 2004, 6:28 pm

Well then they would choose not to be gay dipshit

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 28, 2004, 6:41 pm

Ok... I was going to post this earlier but didn't because it looked like this thread might die but since it's not I might as well keep it going

While I do agree 100% that I believe Homosexuality has a Genetic component I disagree that it's not a "choice" for some people. From what I can tell there are truly people who are 100% Gay just as there are people who are 100% Hetrosexual. They can't imagine sexual relations any other way. That being said I feel those are, in general, rare cases (3% either way). For most people the truth lies somewhere in between...

Imagine sexuality as a bell curve with totally hetro and totally homo at each end. The majority of people lie somewhere in the middle having some genetic markers of each trait. They can/could be happy in either lifestyle. Because of society, religion, procreation - "the selfish gene" that wants to survive etc... the majority of those people choose to be hetrosexual. Evolutionary this makes sense correct? The majority of the time you want the majority of the population to reproduce.

However it also evolutionary makes sense, survival wise, to allow for strong emotional and sexual bonding between individuals of the same sex. Especially during times of War, famine or over population. Each of those situations presenting different needs from the general population.

That being said I strongly feel than many individuals today are "choosing" to be homosexuals for the bonding and support of a minority community. Some people I'm sure will have a major problem with this but many of my gay friends agree with me on this point. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying it's a good thing... I just don't think those people need to make the genetic arguement as for them it's a choice. Why is it a good thing for them? Because, at least from my experience, the gay community sticks together. Sure their are disagreements but because they can't get married, can't openly serve in the military etc... they watch each others back. My friends at least are very open with affection as well... no not sex, affection, there is a difference and they understand that were many hetrosexuals, especially males, don't (usually for fear of their own sexuality IMHO).

My guess is that these people who "choose" probably make up about 50% of the "Gay community." I think it would be interesting to see what happens if everyone did have equil rights, that would at least allow me to see how well my theory holds... I would suspect that within a generation the community would decrease by about 40-50% because it wouldn't be "cool" anymore.

Note... like ANY theory I'm open on this... this is what talking with my friends, family and at one time clients had brought me too. There is no condemnation for anyone, just curiosity into human nature

Marb

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 28, 2004, 7:16 pm

Marbus wrote:Ok... I was going to post this earlier but didn't because it looked like this thread might die but since it's not I might as well keep it going

While I do agree 100% that I believe Homosexuality has a Genetic component I disagree that it's not a "choice" for some people. From what I can tell there are truly people who are 100% Gay just as there are people who are 100% Hetrosexual. They can't imagine sexual relations any other way. That being said I feel those are, in general, rare cases (3% either way). For most people the truth lies somewhere in between...

Imagine sexuality as a bell curve with totally hetro and totally homo at each end. The majority of people lie somewhere in the middle having some genetic markers of each trait. They can/could be happy in either lifestyle. Because of society, religion, procreation - "the selfish gene" that wants to survive etc... the majority of those people choose to be hetrosexual. Evolutionary this makes sense correct? The majority of the time you want the majority of the population to reproduce.

However it also evolutionary makes sense, survival wise, to allow for strong emotional and sexual bonding between individuals of the same sex. Especially during times of War, famine or over population. Each of those situations presenting different needs from the general population.

That being said I strongly feel than many individuals today are "choosing" to be homosexuals for the bonding and support of a minority community. Some people I'm sure will have a major problem with this but many of my gay friends agree with me on this point. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm saying it's a good thing... I just don't think those people need to make the genetic arguement as for them it's a choice. Why is it a good thing for them? Because, at least from my experience, the gay community sticks together. Sure their are disagreements but because they can't get married, can't openly serve in the military etc... they watch each others back. My friends at least are very open with affection as well... no not sex, affection, there is a difference and they understand that were many hetrosexuals, especially males, don't (usually for fear of their own sexuality IMHO).

My guess is that these people who "choose" probably make up about 50% of the "Gay community." I think it would be interesting to see what happens if everyone did have equil rights, that would at least allow me to see how well my theory holds... I would suspect that within a generation the community would decrease by about 40-50% because it wouldn't be "cool" anymore.

Note... like ANY theory I'm open on this... this is what talking with my friends, family and at one time clients had brought me too. There is no condemnation for anyone, just curiosity into human nature

Marb

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Reverse your numbers and make it 97% know they are either gay or not, and couldn't imagine it any other way.

"For most people the truth lies somewhere in between'????? Seriously Marb?

99% of any man I have been friends with know for damn sure they aren't gay and don't have anything but disgust at the thought of having gay sex.

Your life experience has obviously been with some strange people for you to have that vision.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » September 28, 2004, 7:16 pm

Toshira wrote:I'd agree with Kilmoll on his point that homosexuality activity is deviant behavior.

I'm curious what his idea of normal sexual behavior is, though. Care to make a stand?

P.S. Thess, sooooo...your mother is a closet romantic then, yah?

I don't think I could make a 100% stand on what I view as deviant or normal. I am not the one who determines what the norm or deviant is...it is what the general population would consider the norm. That didn't even make sense to me...but I don't think I can put what I want to say into words.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 28, 2004, 7:21 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Toshira wrote:I'd agree with Kilmoll on his point that homosexuality activity is deviant behavior.

I'm curious what his idea of normal sexual behavior is, though. Care to make a stand?

P.S. Thess, sooooo...your mother is a closet romantic then, yah?
I don't think I could make a 100% stand on what I view as deviant or normal. I am not the one who determines what the norm or deviant is...it is what the general population would consider the norm. That didn't even make sense to me...but I don't think I can put what I want to say into words.

I will then. Normal is man and woman. Plain and fucking simple. Man has penis, woman has hole. It's as plain as day. Common sense. Why people continue to debate it until people begin believing 2+2 doesn't equal 4, I have no idea. It's scary how many people follow along though.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » September 28, 2004, 7:24 pm

Man has a penis..woman ...have...a ....hole... You jus't didn't type that did you. God damn, you're a fucking tool.

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » September 28, 2004, 7:28 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:
Toshira wrote:I'd agree with Kilmoll on his point that homosexuality activity is deviant behavior.

I'm curious what his idea of normal sexual behavior is, though. Care to make a stand?

P.S. Thess, sooooo...your mother is a closet romantic then, yah?
I don't think I could make a 100% stand on what I view as deviant or normal. I am not the one who determines what the norm or deviant is...it is what the general population would consider the norm. That didn't even make sense to me...but I don't think I can put what I want to say into words.
I will then. Normal is man and woman. Plain and fucking simple. Man has penis, woman has hole. It's as plain as day. Common sense. Why people continue to debate it until people begin believing 2+2 doesn't equal 4, I have no idea. It's scary how many people follow along though.

Never ever post again while the adults are having a conversation.

Men and women can engage in deviant behavior together. There are some black and whites, but there is a whole shit ton more grey than anything else.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 28, 2004, 7:31 pm

Lynks wrote:Man has a penis..woman ...have...a ....hole... You jus't didn't type that did you. God damn, you're a fucking tool.

Sometimes, you people just can't understand anything but baby talk. I fear even baby talk might be over your head.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » September 28, 2004, 7:32 pm

99% of any man I have been friends with know for damn sure they aren't gay and don't have anything but disgust at the thought of having gay sex.

Interesting. You are probably wrong, but who knows - I certainly don't know your friends. I have had sex with a fair number of my straight friends - far more so as a teen than now to be sure. Most of them, if asked *publicly*, would also have professed disgust at the thought.

Personally, I have always questioned (of both gays and straight) the sexuality of people claim to find sex with the same (or opposite) sex *disgusting.* I mean, really, most of the actual conduct is pretty much identical. Hard to believe one is *disgusting* and one is not. Unless, of course, the person professing the *disgust* feels compelled to make some point about themselves that they are worried others might misunderstand if they don't.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » September 28, 2004, 7:32 pm

Technically, men have a hole, too.

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » September 28, 2004, 7:34 pm

Yeah, but chicks have an extra one, so they can take more cocks at the same time. This gives man women sex a leg up in Midnyte's sexual normalcy ratings. According to the Midnyte Scale, sex involving less than 3 cocks is deviant. Some scientist, however, are questioning the methodolgy behind this rating system, as all data was apparently collected from a random sampling of Midyte's pr0n collection.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 28, 2004, 9:12 pm

Xzion- wrote:Well then they would choose not to be gay dipshit

Or commit suicide you fuckstain

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » September 28, 2004, 9:34 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Xzion- wrote:Well then they would choose not to be gay dipshit
Or commit suicide you fuckstain

Doesnt look like you can comprehend the conversation... so i will dumb it down to your level

Kilmoll say people choose to be gay
I say nooo, because then so many gay teens wouldnt go bang bang in there head
You say well they choose to commit suicide
I say well they could choose to not be gay, and they wouldnt bang bang in head because there family and friends dont like them for CHOOSING to be gay
then you bring up some bullshit thats irrelavent to the conversation if your trying to defend the dumbass theory that people choose to be gay, and are not born so as all scientific evidence shows, not to mention the view of every single gay person

Lohrno · Post by **Lohrno** » September 28, 2004, 9:36 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: 99% of any man I have been friends with know for damn sure they aren't gay and don't have anything but disgust at the thought of having gay sex.

Shot down a lot?

-=Lohrno

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » September 28, 2004, 9:41 pm

Aaeamdar wrote:
99% of any man I have been friends with know for damn sure they aren't gay and don't have anything but disgust at the thought of having gay sex.
Interesting. You are probably wrong, but who knows - I certainly don't know your friends. I have had sex with a fair number of my straight friends - far more so as a teen than now to be sure. Most of them, if asked *publicly*, would also have professed disgust at the thought.

Personally, I have always questioned (of both gays and straight) the sexuality of people claim to find sex with the same (or opposite) sex *disgusting.* I mean, really, most of the actual conduct is pretty much identical. Hard to believe one is *disgusting* and one is not. Unless, of course, the person professing the *disgust* feels compelled to make some point about themselves that they are worried others might misunderstand if they don't.

Good point, i am 100% straight myself, but a few years ago at some party I was pretty wasted and as im told some gay dude hit on me and I just kind of went with it, I didnt actually have sex...but just a little makeout action

I blame it on the red streaks in my hair i was told would look *cute*, those fuckers had me making out with guys

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 28, 2004, 9:48 pm

Xzion- wrote:
Aaeamdar wrote:
99% of any man I have been friends with know for damn sure they aren't gay and don't have anything but disgust at the thought of having gay sex.
Interesting. You are probably wrong, but who knows - I certainly don't know your friends. I have had sex with a fair number of my straight friends - far more so as a teen than now to be sure. Most of them, if asked *publicly*, would also have professed disgust at the thought.

Personally, I have always questioned (of both gays and straight) the sexuality of people claim to find sex with the same (or opposite) sex *disgusting.* I mean, really, most of the actual conduct is pretty much identical. Hard to believe one is *disgusting* and one is not. Unless, of course, the person professing the *disgust* feels compelled to make some point about themselves that they are worried others might misunderstand if they don't.
Good point, i am 100% straight myself, but a few years ago at some party I was pretty wasted and as im told some gay dude hit on me and I just kind of went with it, I didnt actually have sex...but just a little makeout action

I blame it on the red streaks in my hair i was told would look *cute*, those fuckers had me making out with guys

Dude. If you are telling the truth. Welcome to the truth that, you are gay. You may want to be "straight", but alas you are not. Yeah, sorry.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » September 28, 2004, 9:56 pm

What about prison sex? Psychologists say that most men that do it are still technically heterosexual.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » September 28, 2004, 10:01 pm

omg I have kissed girls before - that makes me gay and a want to be straight person!1!111ONE!1 in Midnyte's mind.

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » September 28, 2004, 10:04 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Xzion- wrote:
Aaeamdar wrote:
99% of any man I have been friends with know for damn sure they aren't gay and don't have anything but disgust at the thought of having gay sex.
Interesting. You are probably wrong, but who knows - I certainly don't know your friends. I have had sex with a fair number of my straight friends - far more so as a teen than now to be sure. Most of them, if asked *publicly*, would also have professed disgust at the thought.

Personally, I have always questioned (of both gays and straight) the sexuality of people claim to find sex with the same (or opposite) sex *disgusting.* I mean, really, most of the actual conduct is pretty much identical. Hard to believe one is *disgusting* and one is not. Unless, of course, the person professing the *disgust* feels compelled to make some point about themselves that they are worried others might misunderstand if they don't.
Good point, i am 100% straight myself, but a few years ago at some party I was pretty wasted and as im told some gay dude hit on me and I just kind of went with it, I didnt actually have sex...but just a little makeout action

I blame it on the red streaks in my hair i was told would look *cute*, those fuckers had me making out with guys

Well, at least i can buy some assless pants for my trip to ibiza inc soon, since im now officially gay according to midnyte!

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 28, 2004, 10:05 pm

Thess wrote:omg I have kissed girls before - that makes me gay and a want to be straight person!1!111ONE!1 in Midnyte's mind.

I can't speak for girls Thess. I only speak from a guy's aspect.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » September 28, 2004, 10:09 pm

So for girls, you give it a pass, but for guys, it must mean they are gay. Do you not see the idiocy you radiate on a dialy basis?

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » September 28, 2004, 10:10 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Thess wrote:omg I have kissed girls before - that makes me gay and a want to be straight person!1!111ONE!1 in Midnyte's mind.
I can't speak for girls Thess. I only speak from a guy's aspect.

So big boy, what are you wearing tonight?

Zaelath · Post by **Zaelath** » September 28, 2004, 10:13 pm

Lynks wrote:So for girls, you give it a pass, but for guys, it must mean they are gay. Do you not see the idiocy you radiate on a dialy basis?

Two girls == gives Mid the horn.

Two guys == makes Mid ill.

Logically, I deduce that anything that gets Mid off is normal, everything else is abberant

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 28, 2004, 10:36 pm

Lynks wrote:So for girls, you give it a pass, but for guys, it must mean they are gay. Do you not see the idiocy you radiate on a dialy basis?

No. I can't speak for women, becuase I am not one. Very simple.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 28, 2004, 10:45 pm

Hi, I believe in unequal rights.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » September 28, 2004, 10:54 pm

I think there's plenty of evidence that sexuality is not the fixed concept that some of us would like to believe it is.

Some of Brazil's cities feature a host of feminized male prostitutes who inject silicone directly into their bodies to make their hips and chests and such more feminine. These prostitutes have sex with straight men. As long as the straight man plays the pitcher, his sexuality is not called into question.

Examples like this abound across all cultures.

Arundel Pajo · Post by **Arundel Pajo** » September 28, 2004, 11:31 pm

Sueven wrote:I think there's plenty of evidence that sexuality is not the fixed concept that some of us would like to believe it is.

Some of Brazil's cities feature a host of feminized male prostitutes who inject silicone directly into their bodies to make their hips and chests and such more feminine. These prostitutes have sex with straight men. As long as the straight man plays the pitcher, his sexuality is not called into question.

Examples like this abound across all cultures.

Everything I Googled on this topic indicated that these Brazilian prostitutes were not pumping themselves with silocone with the intent of greying sexual identity or as purely a business investment, but rather that they are transsexual and lack the access to conventional TS surgery we have in the states. Most of them can only get work in the sex industry due to discrimination, and most of them align themselves firmly with the opposite gender.

There is a lot of grey between "perfectly gay" and "perfectly straight", and most of us fall in-between somewhere, though leaning heavily to one side or the other. The fact that there is this sliding scale, however, does not mean that somebody who identifies with one role can just up and decide to switch - for the vast majority, anyway...I suppose there are the 50/50ers.

I still don't buy into somebody being able to decide to not be gay. I'm not sure if this is agreeing or disagreeing with your post, as I'm not 100% certain of your inference in referencing transgendered prostitutes, but those are my thoughts.

Sueven · Post by **Sueven** » September 28, 2004, 11:39 pm

Everything I Googled on this topic indicated that these Brazilian prostitutes were not pumping themselves with silocone with the intent of greying sexual identity or as purely a business investment, but rather that they are transsexual and lack the access to conventional TS surgery we have in the states. Most of them can only get work in the sex industry due to discrimination, and most of them align themselves firmly with the opposite gender.

Definitely true for the most part. The important part isn't the behavior of the prostitutes, but rather the self-image of the men who fuck them and consider themselves straight. It's mostly meant to serve as an example to defend Marbus' position.

Edit: I don't agree whatsoever with the percentages that Marbus puts forth. I do agree with the general concept that most people are not pure gay or pure straight, and that our understandings of gender have never been clean and concise across space and time.

Crav · Post by **Crav** » September 29, 2004, 12:57 am

I think Marbus does bring up a good point, I mean you can't say that all Greek men during the classical period were just born to be gay and then some how later on that gene was breed out. I don't think the percentages are correct, but since there is no real study on it, it's as good a guess as any.

What does it mean though? Is it just that most people are wired to be bi and society then directs acceptable attractions? I doubt most people would accept that. I don't really see how this affects the argument for or against gay marriages.

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 29, 2004, 1:22 am

The percentages were just guess. Midnyte especially, I'm NOT saying someone who isn't in that small percentage, whatever it may be isn't straight or is considering being gay at all. I'm saying they probably have SOME of the genetic markers that would allow them to be gay in a certian circumstance. That circumstance COULD be MORE gentic markers or socitial I don't know

The main point, if we don't get bogged down in the details, I said I didn't have hard research on this, was that it's NOT as simple as saying someone is gay or straight based purely upon genetics or purely upon environment. In, as my guess was 3% each way I'll say 94% (NOT SAYING THAT IS CORRECT) of the cases both play a major role in determining our sexuality, both environment and genetics.

And no I didn't grow up in some kind of weird environment. I grew up in a pretty strict Souther Baptist Household. Due to the hipocracy (sp) I started doing things with other youth groups as well but Homosexuality was something totally wrong... no question. It wasn't until I was in college, hanging out with one of my gay friends while waiting on my then girlfirend (now wife) that I realized I couldn't understand (remember I was training to be a shrink) my friends point of view. I wanted to, not from a sexual standpoint, but from an empathic one. He wanted to know if I thought one of the guys at the bar was hot... I couldn't relate. The only way I could was to think "well, he looks like he could get a lot of pussy if he tried so I guess.. yea" that's the way I had to relate it... he died laughing but I though to myself... why can't I.

The only place decent for anyone to go dancing in the early 90s in Little Rock was the local "gay" bar. I went to a liberal college then worked in a hospital so I knew a lot of people who frequented there anyway. Talking with people during that time period and just observing since is where my opinions come from.

Whether is biology or psychology we, as educated human beings, learn more and more every year that things have both a role to play, that is what I'm saying.

Marb

Hesten · Post by **Hesten** » September 29, 2004, 4:32 am

Well, i actually feel sorry for Midnytes choice of friends if theyre all as homophobic as he is.

ONE of my friends are pretty homophobic, and would never even joke about having sex with another man.
Everyone else i know would be places various places on the scale.

Hell, i even been at gay bar with some friends myself, none of us were gay, but its imo a lot nicer being out in town in a gay bar than in some disco with 117 18 year old idiots looking for a fight. No fights there, nice atpmosphere, and the one time i got asked if i wanted to dance, i just told him that werent to that side, but was just there with some friends. No problems at all there.

vn_Tanc · Post by **vn_Tanc** » September 29, 2004, 5:25 am

This thread is hilarious.

What happens when an irresistable force collides with an immovably stupid object?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 29, 2004, 7:22 am

Hesten wrote:Well, i actually feel sorry for Midnytes choice of friends if theyre all as homophobic as he is.

ONE of my friends are pretty homophobic, and would never even joke about having sex with another man.
Everyone else i know would be places various places on the scale.

Hell, i even been at gay bar with some friends myself, none of us were gay, but its imo a lot nicer being out in town in a gay bar than in some disco with 117 18 year old idiots looking for a fight. No fights there, nice atpmosphere, and the one time i got asked if i wanted to dance, i just told him that werent to that side, but was just there with some friends. No problems at all there.

/shrug

I'm not homophobic. Neither are my friends. We do joke about having gay sex. It's funny.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 29, 2004, 8:05 am

Xzion- wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Thess wrote:omg I have kissed girls before - that makes me gay and a want to be straight person!1!111ONE!1 in Midnyte's mind.
I can't speak for girls Thess. I only speak from a guy's aspect.
So big boy, what are you wearing tonight?

I was wondering why you were so passionate on the subject, and i thought hmmm maybe Xzion thought about someone other then himself , but no I was wrong your a Butt Pirate so of course Mid's statments would offend you.

Xzion- · Post by **Xzion-** » September 29, 2004, 4:23 pm

Cartalas wrote:
Xzion- wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Thess wrote:omg I have kissed girls before - that makes me gay and a want to be straight person!1!111ONE!1 in Midnyte's mind.
I can't speak for girls Thess. I only speak from a guy's aspect.
So big boy, what are you wearing tonight?
I was wondering why you were so passionate on the subject, and i thought hmmm maybe Xzion thought about someone other then himself , but no I was wrong your a Butt Pirate so of course Mid's statments would offend you.

Im sorry that i am comforable enough with my sexuality (unlike apparently midnyte and yourself) to support a cause that ultimately hopes to bring about freedom and equality to an opressed minority. Then again if this were the 50's people like you would be the ones calling me "nigger lover" for my support of the african american civil rights movement.

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » September 29, 2004, 4:26 pm

There are varying degrees of sexuality. The sexually secure person can explore these areas without fear or shame and determine truthfully what is and isn't their bag. I know a sexually insecure man when I see one and they always express "disgust" when homosexuals are mentioned.

I would never be involved with a guy too insecure to go to a gay bar with me. Those types tend to have other "bedroom" issues. Its simple psychology, any man who is intimidated or disturbed by being around gays has some sexual repression issues he needs to deal with. I gave up on messing with sexually repressed men years ago. Seeing how a man reacts to gays is a great gauge without having to sleep with them.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 29, 2004, 4:27 pm

Xzion- wrote:
Cartalas wrote:
Xzion- wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Thess wrote:omg I have kissed girls before - that makes me gay and a want to be straight person!1!111ONE!1 in Midnyte's mind.
I can't speak for girls Thess. I only speak from a guy's aspect.
So big boy, what are you wearing tonight?
I was wondering why you were so passionate on the subject, and i thought hmmm maybe Xzion thought about someone other then himself , but no I was wrong your a Butt Pirate so of course Mid's statments would offend you.
Im sorry that i am comforable enough with my sexuality (unlike apparently midnyte and yourself) to support a cause that ultimately hopes to bring about freedom and equality to an opressed minority. Then again if this were the 50's people like you would be the ones calling me "nigger lover" for my support of the african american civil rights movement.

Come on you dont care, Your just in it for the ass loving?

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » September 29, 2004, 4:33 pm

Thess wrote:omg I have kissed girls before - that makes me gay and a want to be straight person!1!111ONE!1 in Midnyte's mind.

come to new orleans and I'll make you gay

Aaeamdar · Post by **Aaeamdar** » September 29, 2004, 4:35 pm

Can I watch? (and will that make me straight?)

Kilmoll the Sexy · Post by **Kilmoll the Sexy** » September 29, 2004, 4:37 pm

you can't just turn someone gay!

btw....the last 4 or 5 posts that were not written by the gold and silver medalists from the VV Special Olympics were all about bisexuality and that is an entirely different animal.....

Lalanae · Post by **Lalanae** » September 29, 2004, 4:39 pm

Kilmoll the Sexy wrote:you can't just turn someone gay!

btw....the last 4 or 5 posts that were not written by the gold and silver medalists from the VV Special Olympics were all about bisexuality and that is an entirely different animal.....

come to New Orleans and Bakara will make you gay