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Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 24, 2004, 8:14 pm

Xzion wrote:
Im 90% sure Arnold would get my vote based on his positions atm., he wont run in four years though, hel run in 8, if he does run

Arnold will be dead in 8 years. He would need to run in 2008. A lot of chemicals have passed through his body.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 24, 2004, 8:19 pm

miir wrote:
No immigrant to this country has broken all emotional ties with their homeland.
Horseshit.
Absolute horseshit.

Being of Hungarian heritage I know a lot of Hungarian 'immigrants' who left just before communism and have no desire to ever be associated with Hungary. Once they got all their family over here, they never looked back.

It's easy to turn you back on your country when your country turns their back on you

I wish more Americans who felt this way would leave and never come back like your Hungarian ancestors have done. Problem with Americans is they hate it, but they stay and complain and make it hell for the rest of us who love it.

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » September 24, 2004, 11:46 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I find it weird when people convert to a religion as if they have had some imaginary revelation showing them the true light. I find it laughable and wouldn't find their character to be one of presidential caliber.

How so. Most people are forced into religion since birth. It makes perfect sense to choose your own path once you become more aware of life around you.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 25, 2004, 2:07 am

Lynks wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote: I find it weird when people convert to a religion as if they have had some imaginary revelation showing them the true light. I find it laughable and wouldn't find their character to be one of presidential caliber.
How so. Most people are forced into religion since birth. It makes perfect sense to choose your own path once you become more aware of life around you.

Exactly my point. You are brought up into a belief system(religion). What happens to someone that they think this new religion is better or more real? To me it is no different than people switching around to different psychiatrists. One makes them feel better about themselves than the other. It's interesting yet sad at the same time.

I think Jesse the body Ventura said it best...."Religion is a crutch for the weak minded."

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » September 25, 2004, 3:23 am

Religion is a crutch for the weak minded. ~Jesse Ventura

I agree...

Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. ~Guy de Maupassant

You are brought up into a belief system(religion). What happens to someone that they think this new religion is better or more real? ~Midnyte

I agree...

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 25, 2004, 10:37 am

Keverian FireCry wrote:
Religion is a crutch for the weak minded. ~Jesse Ventura
I agree...
Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched. ~Guy de Maupassant

You are brought up into a belief system(religion). What happens to someone that they think this new religion is better or more real? ~Midnyte
I agree...
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it. ~George Bernard Shaw

I don't agree with Shaw's definition at all. And I don't agree with Guy's theory either. They are using a good word and making it sound like a horrible thing. Neat concept, but I'm not buying it.......................................................Keverian...................you're fired!

Lynks · Post by **Lynks** » September 25, 2004, 11:22 am

Well first of all, psychiatrists have different methods. They don't all help the same way. Its like saying you don't like the people for going from McDonald's to Burger King.

Secondly, changing religions isn't always a matter of choosing one that you think is better, its about choosing one you believe is right for you. You don't agree with a store policy (ie mandatory tipping), you leave to better suit your needs. You don't like the Pope for what he did, you leave one for the same reason.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 25, 2004, 11:23 am

I'd say both are 100% correct. That is, they are 100% correct about the blind patriotism that is so widespread these days.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 25, 2004, 11:50 am

Lynks wrote:Well first of all, psychiatrists have different methods. They don't all help the same way. Its like saying you don't like the people for going from McDonald's to Burger King.

Secondly, changing religions isn't always a matter of choosing one that you think is better, its about choosing one you believe is right for you. You don't agree with a store policy (ie mandatory tipping), you leave to better suit your needs. You don't like the Pope for what he did, you leave one for the same reason.

I'm sorry but I don't believe you can say that. Religion is about believing in some imaginary Godlike deity who has power blah blah blah. You don't just jump around from religion to religion to feel better about yourself. You either believe or you do not believe. People who can so easily latch, detach, and relatch to multiple religion have a serious problem.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 25, 2004, 12:17 pm

Well considering several religions believe in the same imaginary being, there really isn't much jumping. Just a different view of how to follow it.

Keverian FireCry · Post by **Keverian FireCry** » September 25, 2004, 4:49 pm

It's not that patriotism is a bad thing. It's just that the word is being used these days in very frightening ways by Bush supporters. It's being used in a way that says questioning and disagreeing with your government is somehow anti-american and un-patriotic. That is borderline fascism, whether you like it or not. Patriotism is loving your country, but that does not mean you must love the government that is in place at a certain time.

The other scary part is that when you follow this blind patriotism, you place a greater importance on American people as you do all other humans. That's where the, "I was born into it, so it's better than everything else", comes in. That is absolutely prejudice. You cannot treat other humans around the world like inferior people. I'm not saying that our way of life isn't better than many countries around the world, however, this patriotism has led to isolationism and hatred of or allies, whom we completely ignored going into this war.

One example of this stupidity is when Bill O'Reilly scowled and poked fun at Walter Cronkite for saying he was an internationalist. Internationalism is not a bad thing, it's what we need MORE of, it's what binds people around the world as one. It's what stops wars that are uneccesary, like the one we've started. Now there is this conservative bullshit idea that, "We aren't gonna let the world push us around!! We're America and we are always right, so get out of our way!!". It's amazingly ignorant and disturbing.

Instead of internationalism we have this blind nationalism/patriotism which often turns into hatred toward other cultures, which does, infact lead to wars. We have even created enemies out of our oldest allies, France in particular...all because the disagreed with us.

Somehow Bush knows better than 90% of the world, and 50% of his own country? We ignored all warnings from our allies around the world. We've turned a sovereign state, where women's rights were greater than that of most middle eastern countries, where Islam was far less extreme and held far less power than it does throughout the middle-east...into a haven for terrorists.

All in the name of "democracy" and "freedom", all because they are different than us, all because we are right and everyone else is wrong. All because of this blind patriotism, which is, in fact much like a religion.

Rekaar. · Post by **Rekaar.** » September 27, 2004, 4:31 pm

Sylvus wrote:
Rekaar. wrote:No immigrant to this country has broken all emotional ties with their homeland. It's a huge liability and one we don't need to bother with, given that there are thousands of people qualified to be the President that were born as citizens.

Are there circumstances? Sure. I don't think it's a rule we need to change.
You don't know that they haven't broken all emotional ties, and so what if they haven't? And in my hypothetical situation I'm supposing that it is THE best candidate. What if you agreed with someone 100% on every single issue, but they had been born in another country and spent one day there before their parents fled to America to escape some sort of persecution. Would you stop supporting it then?

There is no good reason for the rule to be in place. It only allows someone to run for president, they still have to be elected. If they aren't suitable for the job, they probably won't get it.

The reason we have the candidates we do is not because they're most qualified, it's because their parties thought they could win with them and forward their agendas. Neither is necessarily the best man for the job. I don't think it needs to be changed, but I can understand why you might say it's an unnecessary restriction.

I do think being born a citizen adds another level to your loyalty to the country.