Kerry's Medals

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 18, 2004, 3:16 pm

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/ ... index.html

Read it and weep... now HOPEFULLY we can get on to the issues

Marb

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 18, 2004, 3:23 pm

Marbus wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/ ... index.html

Read it and weep... now HOPEFULLY we can get on to the issues

Marb

I don't think anyone here was argueing that they weren't approved.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 18, 2004, 3:57 pm

Winnow wrote:
Marbus wrote:http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/ ... index.html

Read it and weep... now HOPEFULLY we can get on to the issues

Marb
I don't think anyone here was argueing that they weren't approved.

Nope. LOL. A completely invalid article. I'm sure a lot of people will buy into it though.

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » September 18, 2004, 4:05 pm

ok, why is it invalid?

Akaran_D · Post by **Akaran_D** » September 18, 2004, 4:07 pm

The issue isn't about their approval. It was about how it was asked for in the begining and if he deserved them, I think.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 18, 2004, 4:08 pm

Sionistic wrote:ok, why is it invalid?

/sigh

The approval process was never in question. The only question was Kerry's recommended himself for medals? This coming out and saying everything was 100% legit with the approval process of his medals, is a ploy for those who don't really pay much attention or have a little attention span, to think Kerry was somehow vindicated.

Understand?

Marbus · Post by **Marbus** » September 18, 2004, 4:16 pm

NO it's not. The approval process is a... PROCESS. It dosen't matter who gave the initial recommendation. I could recommend myself for a lot of thing but won't get them. If he did recommend himself and it was BS then he would have got them if the process was followed correctly. Same thing is someone else recommended him.

Marb

Sionistic · Post by **Sionistic** » September 18, 2004, 4:39 pm

sorry, misread something, so I see what you mean
but even if he recomended himself, whats wrong with that?

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 18, 2004, 4:42 pm

Sionistic wrote:sorry, misread something, so I see what you mean
but even if he recomended himself, whats wrong with that?

You can't recommend yourself for a medal. There is a 3 purple heart and you are out of combat rule. He got 3 of them in a 4 month period. That is why it came into question by some people.

Marb,

I love you, you know that. But, you are falling for it man. They are specifically using that term "approval process". Take a step back and think about it.

Our examination found that existing documentation regarding the Silver Star, Bronze Star and Purple Heart medals indicates the awards approval process was properly followed," Route wrote in the memo sent Friday to Navy Secretary Gordon England.

"In particular, the senior officers who awarded the medals were properly delegated authority to do so. In addition, we found that they correctly followed the procedures in place at the time for approving these awards."

The questions brought up were in regards to the recommendation not the approval process. It is a farce and nothing more.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 18, 2004, 4:53 pm

How exactly does one recommend oneself for a medal that has set requirements?

If the soldier meets the set requirements for said medal, how the individual's name who made the recommendation relevant?

If you were shot or injured in combat, treated for it and did not receive a purple heart, would you not make mention of it to your commanding officer? I mean, if you were treated for wounds, there would be medical record of it.

The questions brought up were in regards to the recommendation not the approval process. It is a farce and nothing more.

The farce is shitheads like you grasping at straws in a desparate attempt to discredit Kerry .

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 18, 2004, 5:01 pm

miir wrote:How exactly does one recommend oneself for a medal that has set requirements?

If the soldier meets the set requirements for said medal, how the individual's name who made the recommendation relevant?

If you were shot or injured in combat, treated for it and did not receive a purple heart, would you not make mention of it to your commanding officer? I mean, if you were treated for wounds, there would be medical record of it.

The questions brought up were in regards to the recommendation not the approval process. It is a farce and nothing more.
The farce is shitheads like you grasping at straws in a desparate attempt to discredit Kerry .

I didn't make the rules regarding medals. I'm just explaining the bullshit the media is trying to run by you. If you want to by into it, go ahead.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 18, 2004, 5:07 pm

There are requirements and an approval process... there is no 'recommendation' process.

If the person who 'recommended' (if that's even possible) the medal was even remotely relevant, should it not be recorded in the records?
If it is not recorded on any records we can assume that it is not relevant information.

Medals awards are based on approval and meeting the set requirements/criteria.

I fail to see how there should be any question about the validity of his medals unless you're really reaching at a conspiracy theory.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 18, 2004, 5:11 pm

I'll let CBS get to the bottom of this. Kerry will have saved 40 babies from a napalm airstrike by the time they're done with their investigation.

Metanis · Post by **Metanis** » September 18, 2004, 5:24 pm

I read the article. Now, while I don't think this will put the issue to rest, I really wish it would. I've read enough to know that he at least marginally qualifed for the medals. I think it's knee-slapping funny how hard he worked to get the medals only to throw them away later. But he didn't really throw them away. The medals really meant something to him even though he wanted people to think the opposite in 1972. Already at this stage of his life a pattern of deception was forming. I don't necessary mean deception in the illlegal sense. I'm thinking more like the smoke and mirrors of a magician or illusionist. Watch John Kerry reinvent himself NOW... and NOW... and NOW again.

MooZilla · Post by **MooZilla** » September 18, 2004, 5:33 pm

No, its even funnier how Kerry actually was in combat situations, while Bush wandered around in a drunken haze, and they question Kerry's past.

Cartalas · Post by **Cartalas** » September 18, 2004, 5:36 pm

The Medals were gained by lying End of story.

Markulas · Post by **Markulas** » September 18, 2004, 5:49 pm

Everyone that was with Kerry supports him. Some ppl on that dumb swift boat vets for truth actually supported Kerry as recently as a year ago. I'm sorry but that alone is enough to not care what other ppl say about medals earned what like 25 years ago?!1oneuno

archeiron · Post by **archeiron** » September 18, 2004, 6:53 pm

Metanis wrote:I read the article. Now, while I don't think this will put the issue to rest, I really wish it would. I've read enough to know that he at least marginally qualifed for the medals. I think it's knee-slapping funny how hard he worked to get the medals only to throw them away later. But he didn't really throw them away. The medals really meant something to him even though he wanted people to think the opposite in 1972. Already at this stage of his life a pattern of deception was forming. I don't necessary mean deception in the illlegal sense. I'm thinking more like the smoke and mirrors of a magician or illusionist. Watch John Kerry reinvent himself NOW... and NOW... and NOW again.

It is inevitable that a person's self image changes with age, and thus the way that they present themselves to others. The reckless young man of 29 living in an ackward period of American history is not the same man as the 55 year old Senator from Massachusettes today. The same is true of the cocaine addict, alcoholic aetheist, who reinvented himself as a conservative Christian President of the United States.

Neither man has a pristine past, but it is distasteful for Republicans to damn Kerry based upon his past when they will support Bush so stubbornly in spite of his.

I will stick to current and recent events to form the core of my opinions and refer to the past (with a grain of salt) only to build a clearer picture for character reference.

In all honesty, I little faith in either man to run the United States of America with the dignity, grace, and composure befitting the most influential nation in the world.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 18, 2004, 7:11 pm

Four different neocon retards on the thread; four different waffling, retarded responses. I fucking love it.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 18, 2004, 7:33 pm

miir wrote:There are requirements and an approval process... there is no 'recommendation' process.

If the person who 'recommended' (if that's even possible) the medal was even remotely relevant, should it not be recorded in the records?
If it is not recorded on any records we can assume that it is not relevant information.

Medals awards are based on approval and meeting the set requirements/criteria.

I fail to see how there should be any question about the validity of his medals unless you're really reaching at a conspiracy theory.

I'm not reaching at anything. I haven't even thought of it for a week or so, till now. Your making it into my problem. It isn't at all. I'm just laughing at how they have come out with this report acting as if this have answered questioned. It hasn't. The questions that arose from the swift boat vets thing, was whether he earned his record setting 3 purple hearts in his grueling 4 month action in Vietnam and whether he recommended himself for any or all of those medals. I never expect to know the truth, because Kerry won't sign the release of his military records. I just don't appreciate the insult to Americans intelligence when they release this report which only makes it look as if they are answering the questions still lingering. Obviously it is working on a few people, but I atribute that to people just wanting to hear what they want to hear.

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » September 19, 2004, 3:48 am

You can't recommend yourself for a medal

You can write up your own award and submit it to your superiors. It happens all the time. That doesn't make it any less valid.

Just because you submit for an award for yourself in no way means you will get it. Hell most of the time you don't get the award you submit for but a much lessor award is given. Even if he did submit himself for those awards for it to make it through the entire process and he still got what he put in for then he most likely deserved them.

I personally don't blame him for not releasing his Military records. There is all kinds of personal info in there that no one else has any buisness looking at.

Thess · Post by **Thess** » September 19, 2004, 4:38 am

Denadeb wrote:I personally don't blame him for not releasing his Military records. There is all kinds of personal info in there that no one else has any buisness looking at.

Kerry released his military records months ago - they are on his website.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 19, 2004, 9:44 am

Thess wrote:
Denadeb wrote:I personally don't blame him for not releasing his Military records. There is all kinds of personal info in there that no one else has any buisness looking at.
Kerry released his military records months ago - they are on his website.

No he hasn't. He has said he released all his records, but he hasn't. Remember: Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 19, 2004, 11:26 am

keep scrolling!!

Voronwë · Post by **Voronwë** » September 19, 2004, 11:28 am

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Remember: Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.

Saddam Hussein wants to use Al Qaeda as a forward army
Saddam Hussein poses a grave and gathering threat to the United States
Saddam Hussein is developing nuclear weapons
Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and we know where they are.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 19, 2004, 12:53 pm

heh I can just picture Midntye sitting with his tin-foil hat on looking up into the air for news satelites who try to send their conspiracy articles directly into his brain.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 19, 2004, 2:33 pm

Voronwë wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Remember: Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
Saddam Hussein wants to use Al Qaeda as a forward army
Saddam Hussein poses a grave and gathering threat to the United States
Saddam Hussein is developing nuclear weapons
Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and we know where they are.

All verified since we went into Iraq except the last one. Your point?

Kaldaur · Post by **Kaldaur** » September 19, 2004, 2:48 pm

Thanks Midnyte. That last post just made my day.

Kelshara · Post by **Kelshara** » September 19, 2004, 2:59 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Voronwë wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:Remember: Saying it over and over doesn't make it true.
Saddam Hussein wants to use Al Qaeda as a forward army
Saddam Hussein poses a grave and gathering threat to the United States
Saddam Hussein is developing nuclear weapons
Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and we know where they are.
All verified since we went into Iraq except the last one. Your point?

Omfg.. you are trolling, right?

Thess · Post by **Thess** » September 19, 2004, 3:28 pm

I read all his military papers on his website, about a month ago

Thess · Post by **Thess** » September 19, 2004, 4:46 pm

Here Midnyte - just for you.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_ker ... cords.html

I have never been in the army, navy etc. so tell me which records are missing. I realise things like his SS# are blacked out.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 19, 2004, 5:14 pm

Thess wrote:Here Midnyte - just for you.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_ker ... cords.html

I have never been in the army, navy etc. so tell me which records are missing. I realise things like his SS# are blacked out.

His purple heart recommendations are missing. He has not signed the paperwork to release those. After all the scrutiny regarding that exact question, if they were legit, you think he would have those released. He hasn't.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » September 19, 2004, 5:52 pm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=38738

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=38948

http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/stati ... 1140357545

http://www.vetsagainstkerry.org/Misc/Ke ... nists2.htm

"The critical issue is that the Vietnamese communists have chosen to honor Senator Kerry in their War Crimes Museum for his assistance in helping them achieve victory over the United States," the group says.

All this shit in the past is BS to spend so much time on to me....This is way way in the past and would like to see it all moved to real issues. Lets look at there records in there lives running the gov't. If Kerry and CBS want to keep trying to drag Bush down then there is much more ammunition Bush and Co. can use on kerry. According to the trends I think Kerry should moveon.org.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 19, 2004, 6:20 pm

Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Thess wrote:Here Midnyte - just for you.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_ker ... cords.html

I have never been in the army, navy etc. so tell me which records are missing. I realise things like his SS# are blacked out.
His purple heart recommendations are missing. He has not signed the paperwork to release those. After all the scrutiny regarding that exact question, if they were legit, you think he would have those released. He hasn't.

Midnyte, can you produce any information regarding the recording of the individuals who 'recommended' a soldier for a medal on that soldiers military record?

I mean, give me an example.
One single example of a military record listing the 'recommender' of a medal.
I've done a number of searches, found some full public US military records and I can't find this on any of the examples I have found.

It strikes me as odd that they would even list such irrelevant information.

Get to work!
Support your argument with some facts!

------------------------

Sirton, why do you bother posting links to joke sites like that.
Nobody with half a brain would take anything from that site seriously.

Sirton · Post by **Sirton** » September 19, 2004, 6:26 pm

Cause my point is...

All this talk in the pass needs to come to a end and they need to talk about issues. If they want to use CBS to try and Hurt Bush, which has backfired and is actually helping him; then there is much more trash that can be brought out to smoke screen the real issues and make this another election about Vietnam.

kyoukan · Post by **kyoukan** » September 19, 2004, 6:41 pm

miir wrote:[Support your argument with some facts!

haha.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 19, 2004, 6:50 pm

kyoukan wrote:
miir wrote:[Support your argument with some facts!
haha.

miir · Post by **miir** » September 19, 2004, 6:56 pm

Purple Hearts are awarded according to a set criteria.
There is no subjective evaluation in the approval process.

You either meet the criteria or you don't.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 19, 2004, 6:58 pm

miir wrote:
Midnyte_Ragebringer wrote:
Thess wrote:Here Midnyte - just for you.

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_ker ... cords.html

I have never been in the army, navy etc. so tell me which records are missing. I realise things like his SS# are blacked out.
His purple heart recommendations are missing. He has not signed the paperwork to release those. After all the scrutiny regarding that exact question, if they were legit, you think he would have those released. He hasn't.
Midnyte, can you produce any information regarding the recording of the individuals who 'recommended' a soldier for a medal on that soldiers military record?

I mean, give me an example.
One single example of a military record listing the 'recommender' of a medal.
I've done a number of searches, found some full public US military records and I can't find this on any of the examples I have found.

It strikes me as odd that they would even list such irrelevant information.

Get to work!
Support your argument with some facts!

------------------------

Sirton, why do you bother posting links to joke sites like that.
Nobody with half a brain would take anything from that site seriously.

Excellent point. Has there been a reason in the past for someone to sign a SF 180 to clear there anme? I don't really know. Here is a little story though showing what exactly I am talking about when I say he hasn't released all his military records.

Kerry camp denies hiding war records
By Stephen Dinan
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published August 18, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen. John Kerry's campaign said yesterday that the Democratic presidential nominee is not hiding any of his war records and has, in fact, released them all to the public.
"Senator Kerry's entire military service record is posted on JohnKerry.com. His entire record," said Michael Meehan, adviser for communications to the campaign, at a press conference called to defend Mr. Kerry against recent charges that the former Navy lieutenant didn't deserve some of his war decorations -- three Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star and a Silver Star.
Members of the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, veterans who served duty similar to Mr. Kerry on PCF (Patrol Craft Fast) boats, have written a book and sponsored a television advertisement challenging Mr. Kerry's version of events during his four months in combat.
The group wants Mr. Kerry to sign Standard Form 180, which it says would facilitate the release of records and help sort out which version of events is accurate.
John O'Neill, the man who took over Mr. Kerry's command in Vietnam and a co-author of the new book "Unfit for Command," said such records as after-action, hostile fire and casualty reports would show whether Mr. Kerry deserved one of his Purple Hearts.
Mr. Meehan, acknowledging that Mr. Kerry has not signed Standard Form 180, said the records have all been laid out nonetheless.
"Has he signed the form?" he asked. "No. What he's signed is his release of privacy to the United States Navy to turn over his entire military record and he's posted it up on his Web site, so the whole world can see his entire military record."
Mr. O'Neill, though, said the campaign has acknowledged in the past it that has withheld some records.
"That's a lie or a carefully calculated set of words," he said yesterday in a telephone interview. "He continues to conceal, for example, his medical records. He's provided virtually none of his medical records, only an interpretation of them by a friendly physician."
Mr. O'Neill said the key is Standard Form 180, which, if Mr. Kerry signed it, would let reporters or anyone else write the Defense Department to ask for all of his military records.
"If he executes Standard Form 180, he would no longer be the gatekeeper, the gatekeeper would be the U.S. military."
Mr. Kerry's service in Vietnam and Mr. Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard have both become issues in the presidential campaign.
MoveOn.org, a liberal advocacy group, is running a television commercial calling on Mr. Bush to ask the Swift Boat veterans to pull the commercial. MoveOn.org accuses Mr. Bush of shirking duty.
"George Bush used his father to get into the National Guard, and when the chips were down, went missing," the commercial says. "Now he's allowing false advertising that attacks John Kerry."
At yesterday's press conference, Mr. Kerry's surrogates echoed this charge.
"Did he [Mr. Bush] sign his 180? Can we see his records?" asked Del Sandusky, one of Mr. Kerry's crewmates.
Wesley Clark, the retired Army general who ran unsuccessfully for the Democratic Party's presidential ticket earlier this year, said there are "questions about George Bush's military service. As far as I know, they've never been satisfactorily answered."
"Both men went to Yale. Both men came from backgrounds where national policy was discussed around the dinner table and in the dining hall," Mr. Clark said.
"One man volunteered to serve his country. He volunteered to go to Vietnam. He volunteered a third time to command a Swift Boat in one of the most dangerous activities in the war. The other man scrambled and used his family influence to get out of hearing a shot fired in anger," he said.
"That's the comparison."
Mr. Kerry himself condemned MoveOn.org's ad yesterday, following the lead of Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican and a Vietnam prisoner of war.
"I agree with Senator McCain that the ad is inappropriate," Mr. Kerry said in a statement.
At yesterday's press conference, another of Mr. Kerry's supporters, Jim Rassmann, the Special Forces lieutenant who credits Mr. Kerry with saving his life after he fell in the river by pulling him from the water, said both candidates' service records should not be a part of the campaign.
"There's no evidence that the president did not serve honestly and well. And until that shows up, if in fact it's true, let's leave it alone," Mr. Rassmann said. "But by the same token, no one has shown any kind of evidence that John did not perform honorably and well, and by the same token, let's leave that alone as well."
A spokesman for the military's National Personnel Records Center in Missouri, the depository for service records of former members of the armed services, did not return a call for comment yesterday.
At the White House, press secretary Scott McClellan said he couldn't say specifically whether Mr. Bush signed Standard Form 180, but the president did request and release his own military records in February.
"I don't believe he signed any form, but he did authorize making his military records available publicly," Mr. McClellan said. "We have released all the records, and reporters were allowed to look at his medical records as well."
Mr. Sandusky, in defending Mr. Kerry yesterday, called one accusation -- that Mr. Kerry exaggerated the circumstances surrounding the rescue of Lt. Rassmann, and in fact fled the scene before turning around and coming back -- "a stretch of the truth so far it's a bald-faced lie."
"I had to clear the obstructions to let the boat behind me get out of the way so we could get back over where all the other boats were at. And the firefight started immediately after the three boat got hit," he said. "All the remaining four boats were shooting."
Also, Mr. Kerry has been asked recently whether he was being "honest" when he said he spent Christmas 1968 under fire in Cambodia -- a memory he said was "seared in me."
The Swift Boat veterans say he wasn't in Cambodia then, and none of the 20 veterans who appeared to defend Mr. Kerry yesterday could say where he was that Christmas.
Mr. Sandusky said it doesn't surprise him that Mr. Kerry may have forgotten where he was then because, like many serving in Vietnam, they didn't want to think about Christmas.
"We didn't know where we were at for Christmas," he said. "If [Mr. Kerry] said it, I believe it. I've known John Kerry for 35 years, and he's never lied to me."
Mr. Kerry's campaign also has criticized the Swift Boat veterans, saying they were funded by people tied to Mr. Bush or his allies.
But in May, Mr. O'Neill said the only unifying factor in the group was trying to stop Mr. Kerry from becoming commander in chief. "If Kerry drops out and allows the American people a real choice, a fit choice, to be president, we all go home."

miir · Post by **miir** » September 19, 2004, 7:01 pm

Is that a military record listing the name of the individual who recommended them for a Purple Hearts?

Didn't think so.

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 19, 2004, 8:01 pm

miir wrote:Is that a military record listing the name of the individual who recommended them for a Purple Hearts?

Didn't think so.

From what I have read, it is a complete record of ones military service, which shoiuld include that, yes. What Kerry has on his site are copies of most everything but those letters of recommendation.

I find it funny how so many people are so interested in getting to the "truth" behind Bush's National Guard Service, Iraq, WMD's, but completely brush aside the possibility of corruption on behalf of Kerry.

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » September 19, 2004, 8:41 pm

Letters of recomendation DO NOT GO INTO RECORDS. I can show you several of my Medal Awards in my record but they do not put the actual recomendation in the record only the award citation.

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » September 19, 2004, 9:09 pm

Ok, this is the nth post about Kerry, etc. and there is the same argument all over... yes, Kerry is a flipflopping pussy and will not get elected--we know this already. Bush is a witless redneck, we know this also.

But really, every topic here goes in the same direction. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH FUCKING BLAH....

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 19, 2004, 9:45 pm

Denadeb wrote:Letters of recomendation DO NOT GO INTO RECORDS. I can show you several of my Medal Awards in my record but they do not put the actual recomendation in the record only the award citation.

Thanks Den. Don't they save something like that though or no?

Denadeb · Post by **Denadeb** » September 19, 2004, 10:27 pm

Not really. The Award itself is bascily the same stuff that is written in the recomendation with a few wording chages and things of that nature.

Winnow · Post by **Winnow** » September 19, 2004, 10:52 pm

Canelek wrote:Ok, this is the nth post about Kerry, etc. and there is the same argument all over... yes, Kerry is a flipflopping pussy and will not get elected--we know this already. Bush is a witless redneck, we know this also.

But really, every topic here goes in the same direction. BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH FUCKING BLAH....

I agree 100% with Canelek. Can we all agree that Kerry is a flip flopping pussy and move on to discussing whether or not he has had Botox treatments? In return, we can all agree that Kerry technically, according to records, received medals.

Edit: corrected spelling of Canelek's name!

Canelek · Post by **Canelek** » September 19, 2004, 11:02 pm

BEWARE TEH BOTOX!!!!111!!1

Midnyte_Ragebringer · September 19, 2004, 11:20 pm

Denadeb wrote:Not really. The Award itself is bascily the same stuff that is written in the recomendation with a few wording chages and things of that nature.

Well then that's that. I have and will always respect the word of teh viking

I'm done on this topic.

VeeshanVault

Kerry's Medals

Kerry's Medals

Re: Kerry's Medals

Re: Kerry's Medals