Iraqi Future?

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Sueven
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Iraqi Future?

Post by Sueven »

OK, my goal in posting this is to attempt to have a non-partisan discussion regarding Iraq. I don't give a fuck about what Kerry did in Vietnam or what Bush claimed our rationale for invasion was. I care about the future of Iraq and the future of America, and that's all I'm trying to discuss here, even though I'm sure it won't work.

Anyway: Over the last week or so, I've made up my mind that we're failing in Iraq. This is a first for me. Although I felt that we were conducting an overly hasty, poorly planned and unnecessary invasion, there were at least two silver linings present:
1. We had not significantly affected the overall world order
2. Saddam Hussein is gone, and soon a better government will be in place.
I no longer have confidence in either of these statements.

Let's ask the question: Why did France choose to oppose the Iraq war? Clearly, there are a number of explanations, but the two that I find most compelling are:
1. Greed. France had extensive economic interests in Iraq.
2. Power. In economic and military terms, France is not particularly powerful. It's power is largely political. France must be considered a major player while they hold a permanent seat on the Security Council. Further, France weilds great influence in the EU, and may be attempting to solidify this influence as the EU continues to grow in influence.

Greed doesn't really bother me. Greed is a factor in almost any political decision that is made by any country anywhere. The power thing is significantly more troubling. The USA (and to a lesser extent, the UK) is being set at odds with the United Nations. The thought of the USA being set against the EU is a troubling possibility, and one which, while it certainly doesn't appear either likely or imminent, is far more realistic than it was 5 years ago. Having a major power division in the post World War Two alliance could be an enormous problem when China, India, or someone else begins catching up to us.

In regard to statement two:

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/ne ... 6x.art.htm
Two years ago, the head of the Arab League was scolded by many for predicting that “the gates of hell” would be unleashed if President Bush proceeded with his threat to invade Iraq.

But when Amr Moussa reprised his statement to a meeting in Cairo this week, there was no dissent. Instead, the former Egyptian foreign minister, an influential figure in the Middle East, got nods when he said “the gates of hell are open in Iraq, where the situation is becoming more complicated and troubled.”

U.S. plans had called for Iraq's new government and Prime Minister Ayad Allawi to be gaining respect and organizing for national elections now. Instead insurgents appear more powerful than ever. By some counts, more than three dozen Iraqi cities and towns are in the hands of leaders hostile to the new government and the United States, and apparently able to dispatch gunmen and suicide bombers at will. The resistance that was spotty a year ago now launches an average of more than 50 attacks against U.S. or coalition forces a day.

Some of the most horrific attacks have been aimed at those cooperating with the United States and the U.S.-backed government: More than 700 Iraqi police officers have been killed.

Increasingly, the U.S. civil and military effort in Iraq appears aimed at keeping the country from sliding into chaos rather than moving ahead. That change was underscored this week when the Bush administration said it was shifting more than $3 billion from its Iraq reconstruction budget to boost security.

Administration officials also are warning that the bloodshed will get worse before it gets better. “We do expect an increase in violence as we approach the January election in Iraq, because the election is what the insurgents fear,” said Richard Armitage, deputy secretary of State, this week in Prague. Yet, he added, despite “having trouble with the insurgency … we feel along with our allies in Iraq that we are making progress on these matters.”

President Bush urged patience in a speech to the National Guard Association on Tuesday. “Despite ongoing violence in Iraq, that country now has a strong prime minister, a national council, and national elections are scheduled in January. The world is changing for the better,” Bush said.

But doubts that the situation can be turned around are rising, even among some Republicans on Capitol Hill. At a hearing Wednesday on the administration's request to reallocate the $3.5 billion in reconstruction funds to shore up Iraqi security forces, Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb., said the move was “an acknowledgement that we are in deep trouble.” Despite positive talk from the administration, he said, the money shift shows there's no “grand illusion that we're winning.”
“I think it's worse than we had expected and led to believe, and that is the benchmark,” says Lawrence Korb, a former assistant secretary of Defense under President Reagan who is now an analyst at the Center for American Progress, a liberal-leaning group in Washington, D.C. “If I said to you that Saddam (Hussein) would be out in the spring of 2003, and in September 2004 you would have all this going on, you would say no.”

Adds Korb: “In the Sunni Triangle area, I would not want to go out (at) night.” In addition to the violence in the cities, insurgents “are going after people aligning themselves with the new government, and they show they have the ability to disrupt the oil, which is the center of the economic plan, even in the so-called safe south.”

“The bottom line is, at this moment we are losing the war,” says Andrew Bacevich, a former Army colonel who teaches international relations at Boston University. “That doesn't mean it is lost, but we are losing, and as an observer it is difficult for me to see that either the civilian leadership or the military leadership has any plausible idea on how to turn this around.”

While “it is certainly a good thing that Saddam Hussein is gone,” it is difficult to say that Iraq is in better shape, Bacevich says. “Iraq was a lousy place to live when Saddam was in power, and Iraq is a lousy place to live with Saddam Hussein gone and this growing insurgency” in his place, he says.

Wednesday's violence was light, compared to earlier in the week when dozens were killed in bombings. Three decapitated bodies were found on a roadside north of Baghdad. A car bomb south of Baghdad killed two. And a gunfight between U.S. forces and Iraqi rebels in Ramadi, an insurgent town west of Baghdad, resulted in about 10 deaths, local officials said.

While insurgents have gained control of some major towns and cities outside Baghdad, they can also strike with apparent impunity inside the capital itself.

Haifa Street, a major artery in downtown Baghdad that is crowded with shops, homes and government offices, is now known locally as “Death Street” because of the constant attacks there, says Munther Mohammed, 26. “Every morning when I go out, I say goodbye to my wife and daughters because we know we may not be coming home,” he says.

The street is a microcosm of the American problem. When insurgents start trouble, as they did with an attack on a U.S. armored vehicle there on Sunday, the U.S. response sometimes aggravates the Iraqis. Sunday's counterattack by U.S. forces, in which an attack helicopter fired a rocket in the area of the burning vehicle, killed Iraqi civilians, including an Arab television newsman who died on camera.

“The people who are fighting the Americans are real men, heroes who are defending their country,” says Saddam Arak, 29. He repeated a common belief among some Iraqis that the CIA and Israeli intelligence are responsible for planting bombs to destabilize the country. As proof, he points to the site where the U.S. helicopter fired, killing five, including the reporter.

“The Americans fired into a crowd when it was very clear they were unarmed. If the Americans pulled out, things would go very fine for us,” Arak says.

His feelings are not universal, though. “Bullets are flying all around us, but look, this is our life,” says Sadey Abdulamir, 72, as he plays backgammon at an outdoor café with other retirees in Karada, a relatively quiet district in Baghdad. He recites an Arab proverb: “Clouds will not remain forever.”

His friend, Mahmoud Alwan al-Nashmi, 77, blames foreign fighters for the latest series of attacks in Baghdad that have mostly killed Iraqi bystanders. “These outsiders are being paid to destabilize the government of Ayad Allawi.”

“The Allawi government is losing control. The Americans are losing control. It is the mujahedin (holy warrior) resistance who are in complete control,” says painter Mazin Mohammed Aboud, 20, resting in the shade of a palm tree near the Tigris River. “I foresee no progress, no stability. I'm seriously thinking of leaving the country.”

The last time the United States was enmeshed in a larger and more protracted conflict was in Vietnam a generation ago. Comparisons between the two are frequent now. The Iraq war marks the first time since Vietnam that U.S. troops have been involved in sustained combat for more than a few months. And for now, at least, the Iraq war seems to have no obvious end in sight.

Part of the problem America faced in Vietnam was the inability to define the end — what President Lyndon Johnson called the “light at the end of the tunnel” — or to measure progress in getting there, says Andrew Krepinevich, a retired Army lieutenant colonel who now heads a Washington think tank.

North Vietnam's willingness to sacrifice its sons guaranteed continuation of the fighting, Krepinevich says. The United States was not outfought. It was “out-bled” — the same strategy the jihadists apparently mean to duplicate in a different form today, he says.

Ted Galen Carpenter of the Cato Institute, a libertarian group that favors an American pullout, says historical comparisons are imperfect, and Vietnam doesn't fit as well as the Soviet experience in Afghanistan or the British fight in Northern Ireland.

Terrorist tactics used by the insurgents in Iraq were learned in those earlier conflicts. The Soviet-Afghan war turned out to be a breeding ground for terrorists including Osama bin Laden.

Carpenter warns that if the United States doesn't get out of Iraq soon, the conflict could become the same sort of catalyst for terrorism that Afghanistan was.

“It's avoidable if the U.S. terminates the mission as soon as possible. But if it drags on … it is going to be a rallying cry for Islamic radicals around the world,” he says.

But time cuts both ways.

Retired Marine colonel Thomas Hammes, a contractor who trains foreign fighters allied with the United States, says Iraq will take time. “Insurgencies last 10 to 30 years,” he says. “It took the British 12 years in Malaysia” to end the Communist uprising after World War II, and the British were losing for the first three years, he says. “We certainly have the capacity to get it right” in Iraq, he says. “But it is an incredibly complex situation.”

Bruce Hoffman, a terrorism specialist at RAND, agrees that patience is needed. But he says the United States has already “squandered a lot of precious time.” He points to bungled efforts such as poorly training Iraqi police and relying on air power to battle the insurgency, which turns civilians against the coalition. “Helicopter gunships become potent propaganda,” he says.

He says Iraqis desire democracy and that as bad as the situation seems now, it could get much worse, especially if the majority Shiite population becomes inflamed with fundamentalist fervor. But a crucial element is giving citizens “the fundamental sense that the government protects its citizens,” and that is not happening in Iraq, he says.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld cast it a little differently this week, at a news conference in Missouri. Iraq is making progress, he said. “At some point the Iraqis will get tired of getting killed and we'll have enough of the Iraqi security forces that they can take over responsibility for governing that country,” he said.
Now there's enough troubling shit in that article that I'm not going to go over all of it again. The basic problem is, at this point, we have no coherent plan. We'll try to contain the insurgency, but we have not commited the resources to do so effectively. We will try to set up a stable, democratic government, but without the support of the Iraqi people, and without the defeat of the insurgency, the prospect of success is slim.

Rumsfeld's closing quote is exactly the problem. Is that seriously his plan to move Iraq forward? I hope it's not, because it's fucking retarded. If we have taken any lesson from Chechnya, Vietnam, Afghanistan, the Balkans, about half of Latin America, Israel/Palestine, the American Revolution, and, hell, just about any military conflict you want to name, it should be this: People will never tire of dying for a cause they are truly committed to. The insurgency is committed. The Iraqi police (who have high rates of insurgent infiltration and high rates of defection) are not. If we think that we, at any point in the visible future, will be able to pass the responsibility of taking care of Iraq to the government and police force that we have set up, we are sadly mistaken (unless by "taking care of Iraq" we mean "watching Iraq descend into violent anarchy").

If we leave now, Iraq falls apart.
If we maintain status quo, we continue to lose our effectiveness by the day.

The only other option is to increase our military actions in Iraq. Basically, we would have to re-invade a country that we have already conquered. This would be incredibly humiliating from a political perspective, and would certainly do nothing to make Iraqi's trust us more. Furthermore, I doubt USA puppet government number two would be any more effective than USA puppet government number one was (if I were an Iraqi, I certainly wouldn't take it seriously).

So what is has boiled down to is:

We entered a war on pretenses that we (probably) thought were legitimate, despite intense criticism of said pretenses. Now that said pretenses have been shown to be totally illegitimate and unworthy, we are stuck in a warzone that we have lost control of. We have no way to gracefully exit the situation, and we have destabilized the balance of power around the world.

Opinions?
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Kelshara
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Post by Kelshara »

Interestingly enough, just as you wrote this I was reading this and considered to post about it:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/09/16/us.iraq.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (AP) -- A highly classified National Intelligence Estimate assembled by some of the government's most senior analysts this summer provided a pessimistic assessment about the future security and stability of Iraq.

The National Intelligence Council looked at the political, economic and security situation in the war-torn country and determined -- at best -- the situation would be tenuous in terms of stability, a U.S. official said late Wednesday, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

At worst, the official said, were "trend lines that would point to a civil war." The official said it "would be fair" to call the document "pessimistic."
Personally, I believe Americans (and quite a few Europeans as well) in general and the Bush administration in particular were/are naive about Iraq and the Middle East. I am being negative about it, but I don't think there will be a democratic and stable government in Iraq, and I KNOW there wont be a "wave of democracy" or whatever they called it. The problem is, that since you first went in you have to finish the job. And for that a plan needs to be made, although I can say for sure I can't see what can be done to create a successful plan.
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Post by Lynks »

This is wishful thinking but I just want to hear Bush say the following speech and I'll be onboard to give support to help Iraq.

"We fucked up, fucked up bad. We had no right to go against the UN and even more importantly invade Iraq. We would like to undo what we did but we are knee deep in shit. We will continue to implement a democracy into Iraq however. But on behalve of myself and my administration, I would like to apologize to the people of Iraq, the United-States and the World for acting too hastly."

And the following would be the cherry on top but would not expect to hear it.

"And the sole purpose we invade Iraq was for the oil and to help out my man Dick's company."
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Post by Kelshara »

Well I personally don't think the US has any chance of succeeding alone. The hatred felt there for Americans grows too deep for that. If you are to have any chance at all it needs to go through UN, but good luck making that happen after the charade earlier.
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Post by masteen »

Pulling out before Iraq has a police force capable of defending their infrastructure and an infrastructure worth defending would be the biggest mistake yet. We must rebuild Iraq; leaving 2 countries smoldering ruins is unacceptable.
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Post by Bubba Grizz »

We can't do it alone. We need to fess up to that and ask for help. We are asking but not admitting that we can't do it alone. The death toll for American soldiers has been going up each month.

You know we built up Japan and Germany and look at them now.
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Post by Sueven »

Masteen wrote:
Pulling out before Iraq has a police force capable of defending their infrastructure and an infrastructure worth defending would be the biggest mistake yet. We must rebuild Iraq; leaving 2 countries smoldering ruins is unacceptable.
I totally agree. My question is: how do we plan to build this police force and infrastructure? We certainly aren't making a lot of progress right now.
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Post by kyoukan »

well you could start by actually spending the money on police and infracstructure and not wasting it on making halliburton fatter than they already are by letting them steal it.

just a suggesion though.
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Post by Hoarmurath »

This article paints a rather grim picture as well: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u ... endlyfaces
Marine Cpl. Travis Friedrichsen, a sandy-haired 21-year-old from Denison, Iowa, used to take Tootsie Rolls and lollipops out of care packages from home and give them to Iraqi children. Not anymore.

"My whole opinion of the people here has changed. There aren't any good people," said Friedrichsen, who says his first instinct now is to scan even youngsters' hands for weapons.

Subtle hostility extends to Iraqi adults, and evidence of betrayal among some of the country's officials is causing some American troops to have second thoughts.

"We're out here giving our lives for these people," said Sgt. Jesse Jordan, 25, of Grove Hill, Ala. "You'd think they'd show some gratitude. Instead, they don't seem to care."

When new troops rotated into Iraq early in the spring, the military portrayed the second stage of the occupation as a peacekeeping operation focused at least as much on reconstruction as on mopping up rebel resistance.

Even in strongholds of the Sunni insurgency such as Ramadi, a restive provincial capital west of Baghdad, the Marine Corps sent in its units with a mission to win over the people as well as smite the enemy. Commanders worked to instill sympathy for the local population through sensitivity training and exhortations from higher officers.

Marines were ordered to show friendliness through "wave tactics," including waving at people on the street. Few spend much time waving these days.

But the hard reality of frequent hit-and-run attacks, roadside bombs showering military vehicles with shrapnel and mortars exploding on their base has left plenty of Marines, particularly grunts on the ground, disillusioned and bitter.

Deployment in the spring

Since the 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, deployed in the area six months ago, 34 Marines have died and more than a quarter of the 1,000-member unit has been wounded. Now, as the battalion nears the end of its deployment, virtually every Marine in Ramadi has been shot at or seen a bomb or rocket-propelled grenade explode, and many have had several such brushes with death, commanders said.

Along with the heavy toll of attacks by insurgents, the Marines cite other sources of frustration. High among them is the scarcity of tips from Iraqis on the locations of the roadside bombs that kill and maim Marines, even though the explosives frequently are placed in well-trafficked areas where bomb teams probably would be observed.

Then there are the hostile glares that adults in the community give to passing American military patrols, and treachery from high-profile allies, such as the provincial police chief who was arrested last month amid strong suspicions that he was working with the insurgency.

Some Marines say the sense that their presence is unappreciated calls into question the entire project in Iraq, which they consider a liberation that should be welcomed. But other Marines said their support for the intervention is undiminished, as direct contact with the enemy strengthens their conviction that the U.S. faces threats that require decisive action.

Commanders acknowledge a shift in attitude toward Iraqis among troops but insist it makes little difference in accomplishing their mission. The Marines are a disciplined fighting force and under orders to treat Iraqis "with dignity," said Maj. Mike Wylie, the battalion executive officer.

But Iraqis clearly can pick up on the feelings of ground troops they encounter--one of the reasons that Marine commanders were originally so eager to promote a friendly attitude. Commanders have long emphasized that even casual interactions can produce valuable intelligence and win trust.

In a place where American soldiers are at constant risk of surprise attack, ill will shortens fuses even further.

"We're not taking any chances: Shoot first and ask questions later," said Lance Cpl. David Goward, 26, a machine gunner from Cloquet, Minn. "We're a lot more dangerous now. I'm not going home in a body bag, and neither is the person next to me."

Extended military engagement against an insurgency rarely breeds cozy relations among soldiers and civilians. But the American military's strict rules of engagement about when soldiers can shoot and when they can't are designed to limit the impact that passions can have on actions on the battlefield, said retired Brig. Gen. David Grange, a former Special Forces commander.

The acts of friendship that Marines undertook when they arrived in Ramadi now in some cases heighten their resentment toward the city's residents.

After a series of ambushes one April day that killed a dozen Marines, Cpl. Jason Rodgers saw a familiar face among a group of slain attackers. The dead Iraqi, who was lying inches from a grenade, was a shopkeeper Rodgers had called on several times during foot patrols, he said.

`I felt like I'd been betrayed'

"I felt like I'd been betrayed, personally," said Rodgers, 22, of Susanville, Calif. "I'd stood there, talking to him, shaking his hand, giving his kid candy. And he'd been studying our moves the whole time."

Capt. Rob Weiler, commander of the battalion's mobile assault company, arrived in Iraq toting a copy of the Federalist Papers and an American government textbook along with his M-16 and body armor, expecting to spend as much time advising local leaders new to democracy as he did fighting off insurgents.

Even as Weiler and his company fought attacks by insurgents around the city, he threw himself into the task of assisting with reconstruction works. He met with leaders to assess needs and hired local contractors to complete several projects, including renovation of a school.

But as a convoy of Marines pulled up to the school one day in late May to check on the contractors' progress, he said, a roadside bomb exploded in front of the building, wounding two Marines.

"It was extremely difficult for me to believe that none of the people that I was employing to do things to improve their lives and the lives of their children knew anything about it," Weiler said.

Likewise, Sgt. Curtis Neill cites a rocket-propelled grenade attack on his platoon as it passed some shops one hot August day. When the Marines responded, the attacker fled, but they found that he had established a comfortable and obvious position to lie in wait.

There, in an alleyway beside the shops was a seat and ammunition for the grenade launcher--along with a pitcher of water and a half-eaten bowl of grapes, said Neill, who was so amazed that he took photos of the setup.

`That's why I'm bitter'

"You could tell the guy had been hanging out all day. It was out in the open. Every single one of the guys in the shops could tell the guy was set up to attack us," said Neill, 34, of Colrain, Mass. "That's the problem. That's why I'm bitter toward the people."

Navy Lt. Kenneth Son, the battalion surgeon, said he has seen a complete 180-degree turn in the attitudes of Marines toward the Iraqi people.

"When they first came, I was able to discern . . . some glimmer of hopefulness that we would be able to make a difference in the lives of Iraqis," Son said. "I do see that glimmer of hope has dimmed. What some say is maybe there is a reason that the previous regime controlled the country in such a heavy-handed way."
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Post by Kelshara »

You know we built up Japan and Germany and look at them now.
Yes, both of them were extremely sucecssful (well with the exception of splitting up Germany heh), but the situation in Iraq isn't really similar. You are facing more diverse religious groups that hate eachother, a whole region that is pretty much against you (a lot thanks to the unwavering support for Israel), and also different history leading up to the occupation. Rebuilding Iraq will be a hell of a lot harder than either of those two countries.
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Post by miir »

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Post by Marbus »

It made me so mad I had to put my son down and go out and smoke with Bush said that crap in his speech about Germany and Japan. Those were TOTALLY different situations. Once the war was over it was pretty much over. There weren't people sending their kids with grenades to kill our soldiers. Sure there were major difficulties to over come but it's NOTHING like Iraq... What I have to wonder is he really that freakin' stupid that he believes it is comparable or does he just think most American's are that stupid... either way, it's just one more reason he shouldn't be president.

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Post by Pherr the Dorf »

Marbus wrote:It made me so mad I had to put my son down and go out and smoke with Bush said that crap in his speech about Germany and Japan. Those were TOTALLY different situations. Once the war was over it was pretty much over. There weren't people sending their kids with grenades to kill our soldiers. Sure there were major difficulties to over come but it's NOTHING like Iraq... What I have to wonder is he really that freakin' stupid that he believes it is comparable or does he just think most American's are that stupid... either way, it's just one more reason he shouldn't be president.

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While I agree the situations were different, especially in japan there was funny obstacles (like fucking nuclear fallout), if there was anyone with actual vision we might stand a chance
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Post by Arborealus »

Marbus wrote:It made me so mad I had to put my son down and go out and smoke with Bush said that crap in his speech about Germany and Japan. Those were TOTALLY different situations. Once the war was over it was pretty much over. There weren't people sending their kids with grenades to kill our soldiers. Sure there were major difficulties to over come but it's NOTHING like Iraq... What I have to wonder is he really that freakin' stupid that he believes it is comparable or does he just think most American's are that stupid... either way, it's just one more reason he shouldn't be president.

Marb
Vietnam is the obvious analog though these people are even more determined...
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Post by *~*stragi*~* »

masteen wrote:Pulling out before Iraq has a police force capable of defending their infrastructure and an infrastructure worth defending would be the biggest mistake yet. We must rebuild Iraq; leaving 2 countries smoldering ruins is unacceptable.
Theres no chance in hell of that happening... we just created yet another failed state. All this war has done is piss off an entire religion and create another needless shithole of a warzone.
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Post by Metanis »

Kelshara wrote:
You know we built up Japan and Germany and look at them now.
Yes, both of them were extremely sucecssful (well with the exception of splitting up Germany heh), but the situation in Iraq isn't really similar. You are facing more diverse religious groups that hate eachother, a whole region that is pretty much against you (a lot thanks to the unwavering support for Israel), and also different history leading up to the occupation. Rebuilding Iraq will be a hell of a lot harder than either of those two countries.
Holy shit, the world is coming to an end.... I agree with Kelshara. I think I'll just go blow my brains out now.

===

All humor aside. I agree this is one hell of a mess we have got ourselves into and I surely have no answers.

When faced with intractable problems like this I try and ask myself, "What's the "right" thing to do?" Where "right" means morally correct and not politically.

Although it would be pleasant to just load the troops up and bring them home I don't think that is right or fair or the Christian thing to do. I think we need to keep trying to support Iraqi self-rule and self-determination while attempting to re-build the country.

I don't think the American people will allow that rebuilding process to last much longer however. The constant carping of critics like Michael Moore and John Dean will have it's effect. I would expect American policy to shift quickly after Bush is re-elected. (Even quicker if Kerry is elected.)

Perhaps as soon as a year from now we will be disengaging and leaving the Iraqi factions to their own bloodshed. I think that's wrong but I think that's the reality we will be facing since there is little stomach for the war we fight there.

===

Miir's post is a good example of the carping I speak of. In a FF thread he simply chose to to highlight an ironic picture of Bush. Good job Miir. Thanks for the contribution.
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Post by miir »

My point in posting that picture was to emphasize that the Bush administration really had no idea of the shit-storm they would be stirring up by invading and occupying Iraq. Declaring 'Mission Accomplished' and telling the American people that they are 'winning' in Iraq does not make it so.


I knew they would run into some resistance but frankly, I'm surprised how bad it really has gotten. Saddam may have been a terrible dictator but I suspect his ruthlessness was the only thing preventing that powderkeg from blowing up into a full blown civil war.
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Post by Hoarmurath »

miir wrote:Declaring 'Mission Accomplished' and telling the American people that they are 'winning' in Iraq does not make it so.
I recently finished reading Gen. Tommy Franks' book, American Soldier, and towards the end he (Gen. Franks) takes the blame for Bush's "Missions Accomplished" speech. It makes me wonder if the General is just trying to take the hit for his good buddy from Midland, or if Gen. Franks really came up with that whole idea.
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Post by Thess »

Iraqi's and most people in the middle east care more about religion then freedom. When we declared 'mission accomplished' we did not have a plan for the peace, the chaos that was going on after we were the occupying power was enough to turn most Iraqi's against us.

Iraq doesn't trust the interum government we've installed - why? Because we installed it.

The whitehouse received this report a few months ago, and yet I keep hearing this administration saying 'we are winning' and we are 'making progress.'
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Post by Metanis »

I realize that 90% of you won't follow this link. And only 30% of you will even bother to read this quote. But there is another perspective to the ground version of the war in Iraq.

Even if you skip most of this, please read the last paragraph...

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/olli ... 0917.shtml
War without spin

Oliver North

September 17, 2004

WASHINGTON, D.C. -- Last week, our nation mourned the 1000th U.S. death in Iraq. The Kerry campaign and the so-called mainstream media pounced on the report with partisan furor, using the "milestone" as "proof" that the war in Mesopotamia is going wrong -- and that it's the fault of George W. Bush.

On the campaign trail, Sen. Kerry complains that President Bush has failed to "take the target off American troops." His campaign operatives talk anonymously on background about "equipment deficiencies," a "lack of body armor" and "deeply diminished morale" among our troops. Meanwhile, The New York Times, gloomily reports that, "In the past five months, the Americans have relinquished control over much of Anbar and Salahaddin, provinces that include cities like Ramadi and Fallujah, where the guerrilla insurgency churns on with unabated intensity." What's going on here? Are we really losing the war in the bloody, scorched streets of Iraq?

Those are just some of the issues I went to investigate with a FOX News "War Stories" team. On this, my fourth trip to Iraq in the last 18 months, we were embedded with the 2nd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment, assigned to the 1st Brigade of the U.S. Army's 1st Infantry Division. These units are part of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force -- posted in Al Ramadi -- the capital of Al Anbar Province -- the largest in Iraq and in the heart of the so-called "Sunni Triangle." Here's what we found wrong with the Kerry-media spin:

-- "... Americans have relinquished control ..." Notwithstanding press accounts to the contrary, no U.S. commander has "relinquished control" over the capital or the province -- which stretches from the western suburbs of Baghdad all the way to the Saudi, Jordanian and Syrian borders. As our cameras documented, U.S. soldiers, Marines and increasing numbers of Iraqi National Guardsmen are very much engaged in countering those who would prevent Iraq from ever becoming a democratic country. And despite terrorist efforts to disrupt reconstruction efforts and attack Iraqi civil infrastructure, U.S. Army, Navy "Sea Bee" and Marine civil affairs officers continue to open new schools, electrical facilities, water plants, hospitals and police stations.

-- "... the guerilla insurgency churns on ..." There is no doubt that the level of combat has increased since I was last in Iraq in April and May. Bombings, ambushes and indirect fire attacks against coalition and Iraqi government forces have multiplied because the militant sheikhs and imams who foment the fighting know their day is done if the Iraqis successfully hold a democratic election next year. Their only hope is to cause enough casualties that we withdraw before the ballots are cast, so the closer we get to that election, the greater the violence.

But this is no "guerilla insurgency." By definition, "guerillas" or "insurgents" represent an organized political alternative to an established regime. Radical Sunni and Shi'ite clerics like Muqtada Al-Sadr, who tortured and killed 200 men, women and children, and buried them in a mass grave in Najaf, don't promise to make things better for the Iraqi people. Nor do the remaining Baath Party warlords or foreign extremists like Abu Musab Al Zarqawi. These men inciting gunfights in Iraq aren't "insurgents," they are anarchists. They offer no unified "platform" other than "jihad!" When they aren't shooting at coalition or Iraqi security forces, they are trying to kill each other. Dangerous? Yes. A "guerilla army"? No.

-- President Bush has failed to "... take the target off American troops ..." Kerry should take a few minutes on Sunday evening to listen to some of the scores of "American troops" I interviewed in Iraq just a few weeks ago. They tell a much better story than Dan Rather -- and it would give the Massachusetts senator an idea of what combat is really like. Not one of them complains about being a "target." Instead, they all believe that the terrorists are the "targets" -- and explain that they would rather fight them in Iraq than here.

-- "... equipment deficiencies," a "lack of body armor ..." What are these people talking about? Watch "War Stories" this Sunday and see if Marine Capt. Mark Carlton, wounded by an enemy RPG -- and alive because of his body armor -- would agree. The same goes for the troops. All those I was with certainly seemed to be well enough equipped to survive terrorist I.E.D.s and fight back -- using some of the best technology and equipment in the world -- weapons, UAVs, helicopters, communications ... and guts.

-- "…deeply diminished morale…" Where? In the Kerry camp, maybe. But not in Ramadi, Iraq. The best barometer of troop morale is the re-enlistment rate. It's been that way since Valley Forge in 1777-78. When things are going badly and morale is down, so are extensions and re-enlistments. But in the 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines that we documented in Iraq, so many Marines have asked to stay in the service that the battalion commander, Lt. Col. P.J. Kennedy, has had to request a waiver from established limits.

Unfortunately, the pessimists in the press -- "reporting" from hotel balconies in Baghdad using videotape bought from Arab cameramen traveling with the enemy -- rarely get out in the field to see any "good news." Candidate Kerry ought to know better, but he retains the same "blame America first" mentality that has governed his thinking since Vietnam. From what I've seen firsthand, the Kerry-media spin of a bloody disaster for the United States in Iraq is as phony as Dan Rather's documents.

©2004 Creators Syndicate, Inc.

townhall.com
Is Ollie biased? Of course he is. I posted this to remind even myself that the media representation of the situation in Iraq is very incomplete and there are many versions of the truth!
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Post by archeiron »

We have won at war, but we are failing miserably at peace.

The lessons from the Cold War do not appear to have sunk in; it doesn't work to force a political structure or a way of life on a "foreign" people. This is a quagmire that will take decades to clean up and potentially longer to completely heal over.
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Post by Kelshara »

Eh Metanis the posts that we made were about an official report given to Bush. I'll grant you that some media outlets are biased to either side, but I'd rather hope a report like that is not biased. If it is.. well then that is even more proof that change is needed.

And well.. Oliver North doesn't exactly represent truth, honesty and integrity heh. What was said was true, you won the battles but you are losing the war.
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Post by Winnow »

archeiron wrote:We have won at war, but we are failing miserably at peace.
Did anyone think we would have instant peace in Iraq after liberating them from Saddam's regime? You're the blind ones if you thought that. I seriously can't stand the liberal thought process. The nutjobs in the middle east aren't going to drop their arms just because we booted Saddam. Bush should be admired for saying the war on terror can't be won in a way that normal wars can be won. Kerry's piss poor dirty tactics squad jumped all over this statement but in reality it's true and Bush is prepared for the long haul and that's what it's going to take.

I admire Bush and admire the american people that are going to keep him in office even though everyone hates war and it's an easy thing to whine about. It would be much easier to run on a peace lover campaign and watch the world crumble as opposed to having the guts to take action that liberals will pounce on at the drop of a hat screaming death and destruction.

Go out and enjoy your happy hour drinks tonight and be thankful to our president and volunteer troops overseas giving us the opportunity to do so. They make whiners like yourselves possible.
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Post by Metanis »

archeiron wrote:We have won at war, but we are failing miserably at peace.

The lessons from the Cold War do not appear to have sunk in; it doesn't work to force a political structure or a way of life on a "foreign" people. This is a quagmire that will take decades to clean up and potentially longer to completely heal over.
I don't totally disagree with your assessment.

Do you have any thoughts regarding the current tactical situation on the gound? More troops? Less troops? Disengage? Stay the course? WTFC?

I'm just trying to stir it up according to the thread's intent.
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Post by Metanis »

Kelshara wrote:And well.. Oliver North doesn't exactly represent truth, honesty and integrity heh.
Just why exactly doesn't Oliver North "represent truth, honesty, and integrity"? Because he's a conservative? Because he's a partisan? Because he was loyal to his Commander-In-Chief?

I seriously doubt you were old enough to care about the Iran-Contra business in the 80's. So where do you get your information that this man's integrity is worthless?

My suspicion is that you've let yourself be fooled into accepting the "liberal" line about this man without any real objective analysis of your own.

Which is fine, it's just another example of the herd-like mentality of the left.
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Post by Sylvus »

Metanis wrote:Which is fine, it's just another example of the herd-like mentality of the left.
Ha! The left and the right are both herds. By identifying yourself as a republican or a democrat or a liberal or conservative you are joining a herd. Nice attempt at an insult though, unfortunately you're as much a part of a herd as Kelshara is.
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Post by miir »

My suspicion is that you've let yourself be fooled into accepting the "liberal" line about this man without any real objective analysis of your own.
Metanis, is it possible for you to discuss or debate something without putting labels on people?

Why not let your opinions and statements stand on their own merit instead of resorting to thinly veiled insults and name calling?

Also, how can you seriously spew forth about 'objective analysis' when you are quoting townhall.com? Expecting anything from townhall.com to be taken as more than partisan, biased rhetoric is really quite silly.

Do you see any of us 'pussy liberals' toeing the line of the left as preached to us by partisan outlets like moveon.org? If anything, I think liberals are far more adept at developing our own opinions based on our objective analyses. We question and evaluate the crap spewed by nutjobs like Michael Moore to find out of there is any value in their opinions, while folks like you and midnyte take the words of Ann Coulter (and the like) as if they were 100% accurate and truthful.
You shouldn't be surpried to know that most of us 'Bush Haters' don't dislike him because he is a republican or a conservative. Our dislike is based on his and his administration's actions in the past 4 years.
Last edited by miir on September 17, 2004, 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Metanis »

Sylvus wrote:
Metanis wrote:Which is fine, it's just another example of the herd-like mentality of the left.
Ha! The left and the right are both herds. By identifying yourself as a republican or a democrat or a liberal or conservative you are joining a herd. Nice attempt at an insult though, unfortunately you're as much a part of a herd as Kelshara is.
Yep.

And some of us are the Alpha males leading the pack. Then there's the little heifers like Kelshara.

:)
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Metanis wrote:Just why exactly doesn't Oliver North "represent truth, honesty, and integrity"? Because he's a conservative? Because he's a partisan? Because he was loyal to his Commander-In-Chief?
North was indicted March 16, 1988, on 16 felony counts. After standing trial on 12, North was convicted May 4, 1989 of three charges: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents.

There's a good clue as to why he doesn't represent truth or integrity...There's little doubt the documents in question would have further added to the convictions...
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Post by Kelshara »

Did anyone think we would have instant peace in Iraq after liberating them from Saddam's regime? You're the blind ones if you thought that.
Your administration did. Not only in Iraq, they expect a wave of democracy to hit the entire Middle East! But I agree, that was quite blind of them.
Go out and enjoy your happy hour drinks tonight and be thankful to our president and volunteer troops overseas giving us the opportunity to do so.
That one is classic. Because there wouldn't be any freedom in the US if we hadn't taken out Saddam! Typical Republican fear tacticts.
Do you have any thoughts regarding the current tactical situation on the gound? More troops? Less troops? Disengage? Stay the course? WTFC?
You wont like my reply to this: Get the damn troops under the blue UN flag. It is the ONLY way you'll have a chance to get anything long-term working there. It will help settle down the several Iraqi factions, will help settle down the rest of the Middle East, and it will make the killing of a soldier harder since it will be an UN soldier. Yes people will consider killing an UN soldier worse than an American, even if the UN soldier is in fact American.
I seriously doubt you were old enough to care about the Iran-Contra business in the 80's. So where do you get your information that this man's integrity is worthless?
Although I was fairly young at the time (10 in 1986 to be exact heh) I did follow it. I grew up in a family which was always following the news, always talking about it and we had several politicians in the family (and interestingly enough, spread out widely across the political parties). I think what was done both by him and Reagan was wrong. I think the court case was a scandal and the Tower Comission was a joke. Not to mention the comments made about the International Court of Justice and then.. shocker.. the security council veto! Not to mention that his comments about Abu Ghraib disgusts me.
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Post by Sueven »

I would like to thank Metanis for helping to contribute to this thread without pulling it down into partisan bickering (err, more so than usual). I would like to extend a hearty Cartalas-style "fuck you" to Winnow for doing the opposite.
Winnow wrote:Did anyone think we would have instant peace in Iraq after liberating them from Saddam's regime? You're the blind ones if you thought that. The nutjobs in the middle east aren't going to drop their arms just because we booted Saddam.
If you noticed, I dropped most of your bullshit partisan rhetoric. Considering that I am neither a democrat nor a liberal, I felt it appropriate. Anyway, I certainly did not think that we would have instant peace. I don't think anyone did. In fact, if you look back, I think you'll find that many anti-war types warned about this, using terms like "long bloody conflict" and "quagmire" and "breeding ground for terrorists" and "increased instability." But looking back doesn't serve anyone now. Clearly, you are right that the nutjobs aren't going to drop their arms.
Winnow wrote:Bush is prepared for the long haul and that's what it's going to take.
Do you foresee any changes in strategy? It seems to me that, currently, the situation is disintegrating. Troop morale is falling. Iraqi trust for our troops is falling. The Iraqi police that we are training are ineffective. Our grasp of power in the region is slipping. I'm fine with being in there "for the long haul," but what plans do we have to allow us to be successful over a longer timeframe?

Metanis: I don't doubt that the story we're being given is not entirely accurate. I am relatively confident, however, that some of the basic facts contained in the intelligence reports-- such as many cities in Iraq being out of our control-- are accurate. I also disagree with Ollie's assessment that:
Iran-Contra wrote:Bombings, ambushes and indirect fire attacks against coalition and Iraqi government forces have multiplied because the militant sheikhs and imams who foment the fighting know their day is done if the Iraqis successfully hold a democratic election next year. Their only hope is to cause enough casualties that we withdraw before the ballots are cast, so the closer we get to that election, the greater the violence.
Of course a major aim of the violence is to disrupt the January elections. Just getting through the elections, however; will not make the problem go away. It is likely that the newly "elected" government will have no more legitimacy or respect among the Iraqi people than the current one does, and it will certainly have no more legitimacy or respect among the insurgents. Unless things go very well, I don't see how the election will be any more important an event than the June 30 (or 28 or whatever it ended up being) transfer of power.
Metanis wrote:Do you have any thoughts regarding the current tactical situation on the gound? More troops? Less troops? Disengage? Stay the course? WTFC?
We really just need a coherent strategy, I think. The primary question we need to ask is "is the situation fixable?" If our analysts (not George Bush, not John Kerry, our analysts) say that it is, then I believe we have a moral imperative to fix it. If this requires us to deploy more troops to help restore order, so be it. We destroyed this country with the promise of rebuilding it, and we have an obligation to fulfill that promise if it is at all possible.

Of course, if our analysts come back and say "no, the situation cannot be reversed. Political complications would prevent an increased projection of force from being effective," then I feel we should attempt to disengage while keeping the situation as stable as possible. If a war can't be won, it can't be won, and there's no sense in deluding ourselves. If this is truly the option we must choose, we also owe an apology to the people of Iraq, the United Nations, and more generally, the world community as a whole.

Personally, I doubt that the situation is totally, irreversibly fucked. I'm sure that we have the military might to go in and stabilize the country through military annexation. I don't know if this would be feasible politically. If we were to launch a second invasion to conquer the country that we already theoretically conquered, would our actions maintain any international respect whatsoever? Would the American people allow us to recommit resources (including the money and the lives of Americans) to again fight a war that is now largely viewed as a mistake? How could we possibly convince the Iraqi's to take our second attempt at a puppet government seriously? At this point, would we not have killed so many Iraqi civilians as to make the war unconscienceable? Would there be any infrastructure whatsoever left to rebuild? And can we legitimately defend this war if it takes us another year to get back to the point where we can declare, for the second time, "mission accomplished?"

Our top policy makers have a lot of soul searching to do.
Last edited by Sueven on September 17, 2004, 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Metanis »

Arborealus wrote:
Metanis wrote:Just why exactly doesn't Oliver North "represent truth, honesty, and integrity"? Because he's a conservative? Because he's a partisan? Because he was loyal to his Commander-In-Chief?
North was indicted March 16, 1988, on 16 felony counts. After standing trial on 12, North was convicted May 4, 1989 of three charges: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents.

There's a good clue as to why he doesn't represent truth or integrity...There's little doubt the documents in question would have further added to the convictions...
Metanis wrote:Just why exactly doesn't Oliver North "represent truth, honesty, and integrity"? Because he's a conservative? Because he's a partisan? Because he was loyal to his Commander-In-Chief?
He stood up to a pack of foaming-at-the-mouth crazed Kerry's in the Congress. Standing up for one's beliefs is a sure mark of integrity. So is loyalty.
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Post by miir »

Quoting yourself and answering your own questions now Metanis?
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Post by Hoarmurath »

Speaking of staying on topic...

I've read four books by Bernard Lewis regarding the Middle East in general, and one of the prevailing concepts is that, for the most part, there is no distinction between religion and politics. More appropriately, religion *is* politics. In my opinion, to think that we have any hope of forcing our version of "freedom" onto the people of Iraq is misguided at best.

As long as "democracy" is synonymous with decadence and perversion to most Muslims, I just don't think that we can succeed in making it work in Iraq, or anywhere else in the Middle East.

Furthermore, it's no wonder to me that the Arabs, in general, despise the "West", considering how many things have been forced down the throats of the Arabs.
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Post by Arborealus »

Metanis wrote:
Arborealus wrote:
Metanis wrote:Just why exactly doesn't Oliver North "represent truth, honesty, and integrity"? Because he's a conservative? Because he's a partisan? Because he was loyal to his Commander-In-Chief?
North was indicted March 16, 1988, on 16 felony counts. After standing trial on 12, North was convicted May 4, 1989 of three charges: accepting an illegal gratuity, aiding and abetting in the obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents.

There's a good clue as to why he doesn't represent truth or integrity...There's little doubt the documents in question would have further added to the convictions...
Metanis wrote:Just why exactly doesn't Oliver North "represent truth, honesty, and integrity"? Because he's a conservative? Because he's a partisan? Because he was loyal to his Commander-In-Chief?
He stood up to a pack of foaming-at-the-mouth crazed Kerry's in the Congress. Standing up for one's beliefs is a sure mark of integrity. So is loyalty.
Hehehe but obstruction of congress and destroying documents are criminal...:)

You can make all the pussy liberal comments you like but it won't change his criminal record...;)
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Post by archeiron »

Winnow wrote:
archeiron wrote:We have won at war, but we are failing miserably at peace.
Did anyone think we would have instant peace in Iraq after liberating them from Saddam's regime? You're the blind ones if you thought that. I seriously can't stand the liberal thought process. The nutjobs in the middle east aren't going to drop their arms just because we booted Saddam. Bush should be admired for saying the war on terror can't be won in a way that normal wars can be won. Kerry's piss poor dirty tactics squad jumped all over this statement but in reality it's true and Bush is prepared for the long haul and that's what it's going to take.

I admire Bush and admire the american people that are going to keep him in office even though everyone hates war and it's an easy thing to whine about. It would be much easier to run on a peace lover campaign and watch the world crumble as opposed to having the guts to take action that liberals will pounce on at the drop of a hat screaming death and destruction.

Go out and enjoy your happy hour drinks tonight and be thankful to our president and volunteer troops overseas giving us the opportunity to do so. They make whiners like yourselves possible.
Apparently, the Bush administration didn't think through the consequences for their actions well enough to work out the long term geo-political damage that would be done to the US. The Bush administration didn't feel that is was necessary to have a strategic plan in place for the aftermath. Based upon this, I am going to have to assume that they did think it would be "easy", or at least not hard enough to warrant holding off long enough to put everything in place before going in with guns blazing.
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Post by masteen »

Arborealus wrote:You can make all the pussy liberal comments you like but it won't change his criminal record...;)
Didn't Bush Sr. pardon him for those crimes? If so, then there were no crimes...
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Post by Crav »

Honestly I see two ways this can end. We some how get U.N. assistance in the form of peace keeping forces from countries not involved in the invasion, the best option would be from other Muslim countries. While there would still be insurgents, at the very least the general public would not view the peace keepers as invaders. There is no way that U.S. and coalition troops will ever be viewed as anything other than invaders and occupiers. This is a real long shoot even if we do change administrations.

The second and most likely option is that we cut deals with the religious hierarchy. We end up forming some sort of democratic theocracy, it probably won't have anything democratic about it, but that's the spin we'll put on it. Politicians are whores and they'll lie with anyone as long as they have enough incentive. Getting out of Iraq is starting to look harder and harder to do and if the administration can form a stable all be it none democratic government they will jump on it. The scary thing is by doing this we will now have two theocracy next to each other in Iran and Iraq.

Either way something has to happen soon because we are losing control of the country and I don't foresee that changing any time soon.
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Post by Metanis »

Crav wrote:Honestly I see two ways this can end. We some how get U.N. assistance in the form of peace keeping forces from countries not involved in the invasion, the best option would be from other Muslim countries. While there would still be insurgents, at the very least the general public would not view the peace keepers as invaders. There is no way that U.S. and coalition troops will ever be viewed as anything other than invaders and occupiers. This is a real long shoot even if we do change administrations.
Crav, I don't see the UN putting troops into play here now. Even if the USA got down on our knees and begged it wouldn't happen. The major players in Europe will just refuse because they don't want to clean up the USA's mess. Someone on this board expressed that exact sentiment. And then you have to ask yourself, what could motivate France or Germany to put troops into play? I can't think of one compelling reason.

I'm not saying the UN shouldn't have a role here. I just don't think they will take it upon themselves to get proactively involved... EVEN if we beg for that involvement.

I think the idea of Muslim peacekeepers is even less likely. Which country could provide enough neutral forces to make a difference? Possibly Egypt or Malaysia, but then both countries are already facing terrorism over their existing roles.
Crav wrote:The second and most likely option is that we cut deals with the religious hierarchy. We end up forming some sort of democratic theocracy, it probably won't have anything democratic about it, but that's the spin we'll put on it. Politicians are whores and they'll lie with anyone as long as they have enough incentive. Getting out of Iraq is starting to look harder and harder to do and if the administration can form a stable all be it none democratic government they will jump on it. The scary thing is by doing this we will now have two theocracy next to each other in Iran and Iraq.
I have to agree with most of your premise here. And the definition of stable is going to be mighty fluid. I think this area is one the UN can have a huge impact by ensuring that terrorists such as al Sadr are not legitimized.
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Post by Kelshara »

I think you underestimate the power of admitting it was wrong to go in as you did. If the US did that, and if they made some kind of promise towards the future, I can see it possibly happening. But it wont be easy, and it wont be purely on US' premises. Without these things it will never happen, because the UN and Europe wont clean up your mess without getting something in return. And that is most likely a promise towards a stronger UN.
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Post by miir »

I find myself agreeing with Metanis on this one.
Not a whole lot more I can add.
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Post by Winnow »

Kelshara wrote:Without these things it will never happen, because the UN and Europe wont clean up your mess without getting something in return. And that is most likely a promise towards a stronger UN.
Europe won't clean up shit. In case you haven't noticed, europeans are also the enemy in this holy war of terror. Europeans would get knocked off, as they have been the past year, as often as U.S. troops have been.

Also, in case you haven't noticed, everyone in the middle east hates each other. You won't be seeing Saudi Arabia trying to make peace or Iran jump into Iraq with peaceful intentions...maybe Kuwait feels pity for them...lol.

Be thankful the Unites States is in there trying to put a democratic government in place and be happy you don't have to do the dirty work.
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Post by miir »

Also, in case you haven't noticed, everyone in the middle east hates each other. You won't be seeing Saudi Arabia trying to make peace or Iran jump into Iraq with peaceful intentions...maybe Kuwait feels pity for them...lol.
The only thing that could unite nations in the middle east would be a common enemy. The US invasion of Iraq has provided that.
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Post by Winnow »

miir wrote:
The only thing that could unite nations in the middle east would be a common enemy. The US invasion of Iraq has provided that.
No it hasn't. Iran won't start liking Iraq just becasue we are there. Everyone still hates Israel. Nothing changes except maybe some opportunists eyeing Iraq for land gains because of their perceived weakness if we leave.
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Post by Dregor Thule »

Metanis wrote:Yep.

And some of us are the Alpha males leading the pack. Then there's the little heifers like Kelshara.

:)
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Post by Crav »

Metanis wrote:
Crav wrote:Honestly I see two ways this can end. We some how get U.N. assistance in the form of peace keeping forces from countries not involved in the invasion, the best option would be from other Muslim countries. While there would still be insurgents, at the very least the general public would not view the peace keepers as invaders. There is no way that U.S. and coalition troops will ever be viewed as anything other than invaders and occupiers. This is a real long shoot even if we do change administrations.
Crav, I don't see the UN putting troops into play here now. Even if the USA got down on our knees and begged it wouldn't happen. The major players in Europe will just refuse because they don't want to clean up the USA's mess. Someone on this board expressed that exact sentiment. And then you have to ask yourself, what could motivate France or Germany to put troops into play? I can't think of one compelling reason.

I'm not saying the UN shouldn't have a role here. I just don't think they will take it upon themselves to get proactively involved... EVEN if we beg for that involvement.

I think the idea of Muslim peacekeepers is even less likely. Which country could provide enough neutral forces to make a difference? Possibly Egypt or Malaysia, but then both countries are already facing terrorism over their existing roles.
Like I said it would be a long shot, the only thing that would motivate France or Germany, especially France is the chance to continue their business dealings in Iraq. I know no matter how hard we've tried there are still a lot of Bathist running the country, I'm sure France has had experience dealing with them. The other factor that might make them do is the chance to show us up, you have to admit that France would love to succeed at something we have failed at.

As far as the Muslim troops I was thinking something along the lines of Egypt, Jordan and Syria. All three countries have a vested interest in Iraq not turning into a theocracy. I don't know the status between those countries and Iraq are, but since a lot of refugees have fled there I assume that it's friendly. Syria would be a tough sell to the Bush administration, but I think a U.N. peace keeping force made up of those countries under the command of Egypt or even Jordan would fly.
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Post by kyoukan »

Winnow wrote:Did anyone think we would have instant peace in Iraq after liberating them from Saddam's regime?
you mean besides you and your retarded ass "tidal wave of democracy and liberty sweeping across the middle east" bullshit?
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Post by Midnyte_Ragebringer »

kyoukan wrote:
Winnow wrote:Did anyone think we would have instant peace in Iraq after liberating them from Saddam's regime?
you mean besides you and your retarded ass "tidal wave of democracy and liberty sweeping across the middle east" bullshit?
Clever as usual and inaccurate as usual. Myself and others who lean away from your fanatacism have continually brought up the need for patience and having long term expectations for Iraq.
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Post by Kelshara »

Europe won't clean up shit. In case you haven't noticed, europeans are also the enemy in this holy war of terror. Europeans would get knocked off, as they have been the past year, as often as U.S. troops have been.
Do you even read a whole post or do you grab the one thing you could possibly attack with your feeble attempts at being intelligent? Go back and re-read, I said it would have to be an UN effort but that European countries would be willing to be part of it with certain confessions being made. Oh and btw, several European countries are there cleaning up your mess right now.
Also, in case you haven't noticed, everyone in the middle east hates each other. You won't be seeing Saudi Arabia trying to make peace or Iran jump into Iraq with peaceful intentions...maybe Kuwait feels pity for them...lol.
In case you haven't noticed, Gulf I pretty much united the Middle East and the rest of the world. Afghanistan had pretty much world-wide support. People will heistate a lot more to kill UN soldiers than American soldiers.
Be thankful the Unites States is in there trying to put a democratic government in place and be happy you don't have to do the dirty work.
Yeah we should be thankful that you haven't nuked it yet, think that is about the only thing left to do wrong. You're stumbling about in the dark with no idea of what to do or how to do it.

Your arrognance once again proves that the people who laugh at you an yours are correct.
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Post by Thess »

kyoukan wrote:well you could start by actually spending the money on police and infracstructure and not wasting it on making halliburton fatter than they already are by letting them steal it.

just a suggesion though.
Also being about to account for all of it might help in regards to being able to use it.
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